The Hero Discussion – To Ban or Not to Ban?

Editorial Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by the author and those providing comments are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of Smashboards. Smashboards makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions or delays in this information or any losses, injuries or damages arising from its display or use.

The Hero from the Dragon Quest franchise was released only a few days ago, but already the Smash community is in a tizzy over whether this crazy new character should be banned in competitive tournaments or not. We’ll go over the arguments for each side and then I’ll give my opinion.

First, a little background on me - I actually organized a Brawl tournament back in 2010 with Meta-Knight (MK) banned. We did this in order to promote character diversity and it went...okay. We made the decision to ban MK because he was simply too good. The entire Brawl meta-game revolved around him. We didn’t have as big of a turnout as our regular Brawl tournaments, but that could’ve been due to any number of reasons unrelated to the ban. The character choices in early bracket were very diverse, as people were emboldened to pick characters with a poor matchup against MK (literally most of the cast). However, as the bracket thinned out you saw the clear top tiers emerge and diversity took a big hit. Most of the top 16 played either Snake, DeDeDe, or Falco, and grand finals consisted of a King Dedede mirror match. Most of the feedback I got after the event was lukewarm - people thought it was interesting and certainly worth a shot, but that they probably wouldn’t come to another similar event. Mostly they felt bad for the Meta-Knight mains they knew who didn’t come. We didn’t run another similar event while I was in school.

The MK situation in Brawl was different than the Hero debate now, because people aren’t saying he’s too good (no one really knows this yet), they’re saying he’s too random. First of all, he has critical hits which have a chance of giving his attack extra damage and knock back. Second, his down-special brings up a list of four out of a possible 21 spells, which likely means the player won’t select the same spell twice. This could result in a lot of Hero players simply spamming down-special to get a random spell. RNG is seen as the enemy of competitive fighting games because losing to a dice roll feels more like gambling and less like a test of skill. This is why so many people are grabbing their torches and pitchforks and clamoring for a ban. However, there are other characters with levels of RNG, and none of them ever heard even a whisper about a ban - Peach turnips, Luigi misfires, and Game & Watch hammers come to mind. Why is their level of RNG acceptable, but Hero’s is not? Exactly how much randomness is acceptable for the Smash community? This is why the discussion is circling the interwebs, the Hero has, by far, the most RNG of ANY character in Smash history – and it’s not even close. But does that warrant a ban?

Due to the sheer volume of RNG in Hero’s kit, the closest comparison that we really have is playing with items on. The Pro-ban side argues that items are banned because they’re inherently full of RNG, so why should Hero be any different? Randomness is bad, therefore the character with a ridiculous amount of randomness should be banned.

The Anti-ban side argues that it’s still too early to take such a drastic measure; we need time to assess if critical hits and random spells are enough of a factor that it actually detracts from competitive play. Furthermore, they point to RNG that is allowed in competitive like the aforementioned examples of Peach, G&W, and Luigi. Some people on this side of the argument even say that some level of RNG is good for competition; it keeps matches from getting stale and makes spectating more fun.

I agree that Hero should not be banned from competitive play so soon. If someone wants to try to run through the bracket with a character as random as Hero and somehow emerges victoriously they should be celebrated as the master of chaos, not scorned as someone just playing a dice roll character. Not being predictable is a core tenant of high level play, and what better way to ensure you’re unpredictable than by not even knowing what your own character is going to do? Looking at some early footage, I think Hero will be a montage-only character. I think he’ll settle into mid-tier on most lists and won’t be picked up by any top players. However, he’ll be extremely entertaining to watch and will likely create many ridiculous highlights. If this leads to an upset victory in a tournament setting, then bring on the pandemonium!

What do you think? Should Hero be banned in competitive play? Let us know in the comments below.

 

Don't get hit, cover the options, get hit: face the consequences. Nothing new. True combos are a thing. They are not rng mind that. Bannrequest so fast thats the new age I see...

 

Hero ain’t that Jojo bird.

I’d say to not ban him yet.

 

The RNG mechanic itself is not the problem. The problem is that some of his moves deal way too much damage, and can kill extremely early. I had a match against a Pichu, where I used Oomph and got a critical hit with my F-Smash, which took him from 0-Death. (I think it was 62% total.) Kafrizz also does way too much damage for a neutral B move. Another game that I posted the ID of on my profile posts, resulted in me beating a Little Mac in 17 seconds, though that was probably was because of his awful recovery anyway. Asking for a ban, just because RNG is involved is dumb argument imo, but the insane amount of damage he currently deals is where the real problem lies. A ban is unnecessary in my opinion, but he does need quite a lot of nerfs before being considered balanced. That's all I have for now. I still enjoy playing him tho.

if you want to talk about examples bring videos. multiple characters can do what you described to pichu and mac. like everyone do that to mac

 

The​

Editorial Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by the author and those providing comments are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of Smashboards. Smashboards makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions or delays in this information or any losses, injuries or damages arising from its display or use.

The Hero from the Dragon Quest franchise was released only a few days ago, but already the Smash community is in a tizzy over whether this crazy new character should be banned in competitive tournaments or not. We’ll go over the arguments for each side and then I’ll give my opinion.

First, a little background on me - I actually organized a Brawl tournament back in 2010 with Meta-Knight (MK) banned. We did this in order to promote character diversity and it went...okay. We made the decision to ban MK because he was simply too good. The entire Brawl meta-game revolved around him. We didn’t have as big of a turnout as our regular Brawl tournaments, but that could’ve been due to any number of reasons unrelated to the ban. The character choices in early bracket were very diverse, as people were emboldened to pick characters with a poor matchup against MK (literally most of the cast). However, as the bracket thinned out you saw the clear top tiers emerge and diversity took a big hit. Most of the top 16 played either Snake, DeDeDe, or Falco, and grand finals consisted of a King Dedede mirror match. Most of the feedback I got after the event was lukewarm - people thought it was interesting and certainly worth a shot, but that they probably wouldn’t come to another similar event. Mostly they felt bad for the Meta-Knight mains they knew who didn’t come. We didn’t run another similar event while I was in school.

The MK situation in Brawl was different than the Hero debate now, because people aren’t saying he’s too good (no one really knows this yet), they’re saying he’s too random. First of all, he has critical hits which have a chance of giving his attack extra damage and knock back. Second, his down-special brings up a list of four out of a possible 21 spells, which likely means the player won’t select the same spell twice. This could result in a lot of Hero players simply spamming down-special to get a random spell. RNG is seen as the enemy of competitive fighting games because losing to a dice roll feels more like gambling and less like a test of skill. This is why so many people are grabbing their torches and pitchforks and clamoring for a ban. However, there are other characters with levels of RNG, and none of them ever heard even a whisper about a ban - Peach turnips, Luigi misfires, and Game & Watch hammers come to mind. Why is their level of RNG acceptable, but Hero’s is not? Exactly how much randomness is acceptable for the Smash community? This is why the discussion is circling the interwebs, the Hero has, by far, the most RNG of ANY character in Smash history – and it’s not even close. But does that warrant a ban?

Due to the sheer volume of RNG in Hero’s kit, the closest comparison that we really have is playing with items on. The Pro-ban side argues that items are banned because they’re inherently full of RNG, so why should Hero be any different? Randomness is bad, therefore the character with a ridiculous amount of randomness should be banned.

The Anti-ban side argues that it’s still too early to take such a drastic measure; we need time to assess if critical hits and random spells are enough of a factor that it actually detracts from competitive play. Furthermore, they point to RNG that is allowed in competitive like the aforementioned examples of Peach, G&W, and Luigi. Some people on this side of the argument even say that some level of RNG is good for competition; it keeps matches from getting stale and makes spectating more fun.

I agree that Hero should not be banned from competitive play so soon. If someone wants to try to run through the bracket with a character as random as Hero and somehow emerges victoriously they should be celebrated as the master of chaos, not scorned as someone just playing a dice roll character. Not being predictable is a core tenant of high level play, and what better way to ensure you’re unpredictable than by not even knowing what your own character is going to do? Looking at some early footage, I think Hero will be a montage-only character. I think he’ll settle into mid-tier on most lists and won’t be picked up by any top players. However, he’ll be extremely entertaining to watch and will likely create many ridiculous highlights. If this leads to an upset victory in a tournament setting, then bring on the pandemonium!

What do you think? Should Hero be banned in competitive play? Let us know in the comments below.

The RNG itself is the problem. You see, a lot of Hero's moves are pretty ridiculous; and yet, when you think about it, RNG is key to his Down B.
Sure, it's possible to instantly KO with the Whack or Thwack moves, but then how likely is it that they will appear so soon?
Also, bear in mind that there's a major issue with the whole thing; MP. It essentially balances the character by taking away their projectiles and recovery if these potentially overpowered tactics are used; thus meaning that it makes the Hero player have to consider if it's safe, on 34MP, to actually use Thwack for a chance at an instant KO at 30%, or if the risk of whiffing, being blown offstage, and being unable to return overpowers that.
See, this is kinda the issue with Robin; their recovery only works so many times, and thus Hero mains are going to have to rely on their Kaswoosh to be absolutely perfect and unpunished, if they have around 20 MP (bearing in mind that Kaswoosh uses 18.) Also, the effects of Hocus Pocus are completely random, right? Yes, but out of all 11 effects, only 4 are positive, what with one being neutral (turning him invisible) and the rest being negative, so that's not overpowered.

Again, people refer to using Oomph and getting a Critical Hit, KOing at 0, but then no-one seems concerned about Shulk's Monado Arts and Wii Fit Trainer's Deep Breathing, or Critical Hits from Peach, Luigi and Mewtwo. The problem lies in Critical Hits being rare, but random in any move, but then Oomph is random too; so the likelihood is not so common. After all, I have to ask; how many stocks had you taken in any match you'd played with Hero before getting Oomph then a Critical Hit; and have you done it since? It is designed with balance in mind.

Look at Kafrizz. People are going insane about it, but then consider it has a similar hitbox and effect to Shakanetsu Hadoken (Ryu) but requires 36 MP to pull off. Ryu can just throw these out anytime. Hero is designed to be balanced; that is due to the RNG alone, in essence. It's the same reason you never really see Game and Watch in tournaments; but when you do, it's usually hilarious to watch, or absolutely ridiculous. Besides, when you consider that characters like Olimar, Peach and Lucina can get effective results based solely on skill, Hero is able to pull off victories, but you need luck on your side too; and that alone, in my eyes at least, makes him mid-tier, and tournament-legal, in a similar situation to Shulk, albeit with the flaws of Game and Watch. If anything, give it a year, and I'm going to guess around C or B tier.

Obviously that's only my opinion, feel free to disagree. Have a nice day!

 

Way too early to start talking bans. Though the Hero is more RNG-oriented, you cannot assume theorizing is a full reflection of the character. Results, not quirks and theory, should always be deciding factor when discussing bans.

 

Yeah, so hero kills at 20% in the middle of the stage with a critical hit. Seems fair. I just gave up in the middle of the match. Why bother? I wouldn't mind any one of my moves killing at 20% at random. Give every character that please. So, yeah ban.

 

Also, the effects of Hocus Pocus are completely random, right? Yes, but out of all 11 effects, only 4 are positive, what with one being neutral (turning him invisible) and the rest being negative, so that's not overpowered.

Hocus Pocus is a rare move that only appears 5.07% of the time. It’s completely random but it’s one of Hero’s worst spells to use in the game. Combining both the odds of using a random spell, and awful comes out to 83.84%, compared to receiving a good outcome which is 16.16%. It’s an awful outcome and a move that is never going to be used in competitive play. You are more likely to use a random spell or get a bad outcome than actually getting something good from Hocus Pocus

 

Yeah, so hero kills at 20% in the middle of the stage with a critical hit. Seems fair. I just gave up in the middle of the match. Why bother? I wouldn't mind any one of my moves killing at 20% at random. Give every character that please. So, yeah ban.

what character were you and on what stage? you can live a crit under 40 unless you are a featherweight especially at midstage

 

I get the dislike for RNG, I know Armada even hates it on Peach with turnips.

I’m not a fan of hating all RNG, I play TCGs, Poker and other stuff that has it. It’s a part of those games where RNG is a thing but smart decisions need to happen with RNG in mind.

Not an easy question with game design but banning is not the answer.

 

Not only do i think it's way to early to ask this, i just don't think Hero is good in general, his normals suck and while yes his specials are good, it's just the great ones are really rare, his side and neutral special are god for zoning but are fairly slow. overall he'll probably be a zoner while also having to manage your resources.

 

Hero isn't broken by any means and thus should not even be considered banned. Yes, RNG is stupid, but if a character needs RNG to win then that just shows how bad (and inconsistent) that character is.

Hero is a bad character. His down-b, Command Selection, is not a very good move. It's random. Every "normal" move he has is minus on shield. His aerials are slow, his tilts mediocre at best and his smash attacks are easily punishable. The only good moves he has are all his specials minus down-b. Which costs MP.

People whining on this character, or worse, wanting this character banned, are the problem. Their skill level are going to be exposed.

Yes, RNG sucks and is unnecessary, but wanna know what is broken and steals more stocks than Hero? Arsene Joker. Now that is broken.

 

So people wanna ban him because he has the potential to be really good, but doesn't he have the potential to be really bad as well? Doesn't that even him out?

This game isn't built for your precious tournaments anyway, so ban Peach, Luigi and G&W as well.

 

So people wanna ban him because he has the potential to be really good, but doesn't he have the potential to be really bad as well? Doesn't that even him out?

This game isn't built for your precious tournaments anyway, so ban Peach, Luigi and G&W as well.

Now I certainly don’t think Hero should be considered for banning especially not until he has some real torunament rep, but you know full well that Hero’s rng is MUCH more intensive and prominent than those three characters, people need to stop using that as an argument as it’s faulty logic and is simply not a comparison

 

no lol
/2short

 

The closest comparison to The Hero would likely be
Mokujin from Tekken, who has been banned in most games due to random rolls in his moveset giving him access to a character's toolkit with differnt limbs that can generate infinites and similar jank. There are aspects of the Hero that are questionable, but as many have said we need tournament experience beforehand before making any general judgement of banning him, as he's not quite quickban level like z-Crystal Eevee in Little Cup on Smogon was.

I should bring up a similar(though not entirely the same) case as well in how the Miis were softbanned in Sm4sh due to various limb sizes and no online play usage, as well as the community restricting their movesets to 1111. Ultimate did away with a good chunk of that, but I'm getting Vibes of Hero going to a similar discussion camp.

 

I understand why people are concerned. But I really hope we don't ban The Hero. I was so excited for him and he is one of my favorite character to play right now next to Ice Climbers. For starters, He wasn't in the spotlight long enough to justify banning him entirely. His basic attacks are slower than most especially compare to other sword users. This makes it easy to rush him down and a fair trade off to his spells. Not to mention that almost all if not all of his magic can be simply be blocked or dodge with a few exception like Hatchet Man. He really isn't that bad, and because he is new, most are understandably getting tricked by this character. Especially since he is pretty gimmick and luck base. It's like a Double Edge sword, we don't score lucky all the time either, and I think that can create some interestingly hype moments. It's a real RPG character in Smash unlike any other. That's hype. The chances of him getting all these strong spells and having them conveniently appear with the ever changing selection, is pretty low. Just be patient and give him a shot at a real tournament please : )

 

Honestly it's way too early to even be thinking about a ban.

I definitely agree it is too soon to discuss whether he should be banned or not.

But I do somewhat agree that Hero is pretty OP. RNG aside, the fact he has attacks that can instant kill you is out of question horrendous in high stake battles, and yes I know the attack can be avoided but then again this means you need on high tension regardless of your percentage. The only weakness Hero has is probably his recovery and his sword range. In general, Hero is like Roy + Shulk with steroids, a powerful Smash attack and with many power ups in his disposal.

As for my take, I think now discussing whether he should be banned or not is too soon, but whether he is OP or not, is a merit of duscusiion imo.

 

The knee jerk reaction to RNG in this community never ceases to amaze me. We are now going to think about banning a character due to ONLY theorycrafting rather than actually letting them playing in a tournament? And the only reason is because the RNG for this character MIGHT be more than the other three examples. And we know this to be true... how, exactly?

 

I hate down b

 

The knee jerk reaction to RNG in this community never ceases to amaze me. We are now going to think about banning a character due to ONLY theorycrafting rather than actually letting them playing in a tournament? And the only reason is because the RNG for this character MIGHT be more than the other three examples. And we know this to be true... how, exactly?

It annoys the hell out of me when people compare hero’s rng to the other three’s rng; THEY ARE 100% DIFFERENT!!!! How do people not see/understand this?????

 

It annoys the hell out of me when people compare hero’s rng to the other three’s rng; THEY ARE 100% DIFFERENT!!!! How do people not see/understand this?????

Different how? It isn't in power spike since all three other RNG mechanics involve huge power spikes. It isn't quickness because Peach can do her power spiking move (Vegetable) faster than any of Hero's big burst attacks from Down-B as well as any of his smash attacks. And Luigi gets more range on his power spike than Hero too.

Honestly, just saying it's "100% different" doesn't make it so. Please clarify what I'm missing here.

 

Banning characters is stupid, don’t do it. Post reply.

 

Different how? It isn't in power spike since all three other RNG mechanics involve huge power spikes. It isn't quickness because Peach can do her power spiking move (Vegetable) faster than any of Hero's big burst attacks from Down-B as well as any of his smash attacks. And Luigi gets more range on his power spike than Hero too.

Honestly, just saying it's "100% different" doesn't make it so. Please clarify what I'm missing here.

Because of the sheer volume of rng based moves. All those other characters involve relatively little rng while hero has it in multiple places, his critical hits, his mammoth 21 spell down Special lottery, plus hocus pocus which has several more random options, so comparing them in my mind just doesn’t work at all

 

I'm against banning him now but open to it if he gets out of hand. We just discovered zoom has about a 50-50 chance of appearing if Hero is near enough to a blast zone. The character's looking better as we understand more about him.

 

Honestly, this reminds me of the Bayonetta drama, back during the Smash 4 days. Despite being a top tier character in Smash 4, Bayonetta was nevertheless beatable. The trick was playing patient. That said, I fancy Hero has a weakness as well. Instead of rage-quitting, figure out how to beat him.

At any rate, if Hero does end up getting nerfed, I just hope they don't take it to the extreme, like they did with Bayonetta.

 

Because of the sheer volume of rng based moves. All those other characters involve relatively little rng while hero has it in multiple places, his critical hits, his mammoth 21 spell down Special lottery, plus hocus pocus which has several more random options, so comparing them in my mind just doesn’t work at all

You forget that his rng based moves most of the time will involve him getting the short end of the stick since he has either totally unreliable moves to work with most of the time, totally weak moves like Metal Slash, or slow moves that are easy to shield. Plus Hocus Pocus is mostly negative effects so no one is going to use it in a serious match anyway.

Really, all I can see from you is that the randomness exists, therefore it is bad, while completely ignoring the actual problem of whether the randomness actually will make a difference in an actual match. But no, we gotta theorycraft him straight to a competitive ban simply because the RNG is there and nothing else and RNG is the devil.

 

You forget that his rng based moves most of the time will involve him getting the short end of the stick since he has either totally unreliable moves to work with most of the time, totally weak moves like Metal Slash, or slow moves that are easy to shield. Plus Hocus Pocus is mostly negative effects so no one is going to use it in a serious match anyway.

Really, all I can see from you is that the randomness exists, therefore it is bad, while completely ignoring the actual problem of whether the randomness actually will make a difference in an actual match. But no, we gotta theorycraft him straight to a competitive ban simply because the RNG is there and nothing else and RNG is the devil.

I'm against the ban but this kind of post bugs me. Some people don't like RNG in their game of skill; is that so unreasonable?

 

I'm against the ban but this kind of post bugs me. Some people don't like RNG in their game of skill; is that so unreasonable?

Thank you, I mean if one were to read my posts on here they’d see that I’m actually against the ban too or at least at this stage, but wondering why people dislike a character that uses sooo much rng in this competitive fighting game really isn’t rocket science, not sure how some are confused on that

 

My scene here in Maine was freaking out DAY 2. People screaming for bans, even our better players who I'd have thought would be more sage about such knee jerk reactions (Though I don't know what I was expecting when this same crap spewed from their mouths when Joker was released). When they were regurgitating the 'he's BROKEN! He's best in the game!" I couldn't help but turn around and tell them to shut up. It'd been less than a full 48 hours and there was no way to make such an opinion.

And guess what? Not a single Hero player made it into top 5. Yet they STILL kept going about how broken he was (And one guy literally quit because he was so unfortunate to get Thwaked 3 times in one match and died each time, twice at 0%. I don't know what that says about Hero or him as a player. I get the salt, but God, getting hit by that in 1v1 is...rare...difficult even).

So...anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is Hero...is silly. He's easy to knee jerk to. But in 1v1, Hero is flawed and falls apart under pressure. His frame data isn't good. He's juggle bait. Highly exploitable recovery. No out of shield options worth noting. He has raw power with his spells and can get some 'unjust' kills sometimes but I can't see this character being this Smash 4 Bayo/Cloud level threat....

Except in doubles. This...this is where Hero is going to be absolutely miserable to play against. Especially if they go double Hero. Double Cloud from Smash 4 but on crack...and with loads of projectiles. With an ally to keep pressure off to get the right spells in a more secure manner, proper plotting of kills (I'm already picturing partner holding an enemy in a grab just to troll and use thwak/whack on the held opponent to try to get kills), able to make up for worse frame data by being a support/combo extender type, this is where things will get REALLY nuts. But that's just my bet.

It's been WAY to short a time to consider bans. Let him roll for a few months, see his placings and decide accordingly. But if Bayo didn't get a ban, you bet this kiddo won't either. Especially since I hold my opinion that he's pretty bad one vs one. He's a more explosive Robin but without any real guaranteed kill set ups and has to rely on a random crit, get a really good read into a Hatchet Man or full charged side special (Which, admittedly, is SILLY strong and can kill at 60%).

 

I don't think he should be banned. He has glaring weaknesses with pretty significant end lag for a lot of his attacks, magic included. His crit hit is the only unfair advantage to me, but I think other characters exploit their advantages in similar ways, so it isn't all that bad. After the first day of online, I haven't had much trouble with any Hero, 5 million plus. That's just me though, I can see the argument for or against.

 

i mean you could just

i dunno uh

git gud

 

Y are people comparing the Hero's RNG to that of Peach's and Luigi's? Didn't know they could crit too. Someone please show me a clip of them taking a stock at 0% from center stage

 

Y are people comparing the Hero's RNG to that of Peach's and Luigi's? Didn't know they could crit too. Someone please show me a clip of them taking a stock at 0% from center stage

i smell a hoes mad over here

hero can't take a stock from center stage at just 0% unless they get really lucky with oomph, psyche up, and a hard read. it isnt gonna happen casually

 

i smell a hoes mad over here

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

At this point anyone who compares hero’s rng to any other character on the roster’s rng is outright wrong in my eyes, they clearly aren’t willing to listen or just accept basic facts which is frustrating but oh well, again I don’t think Hero should be banned either but people do have darn good reasons for saying so, definitely the most valid character to ban on the roster of any

 

At this point anyone who compares hero’s rng to any other character on the roster’s rng is outright wrong in my eyes, they clearly aren’t willing to listen or just accept basic facts which is frustrating but oh well, again I don’t think Hero should be banned either but people do have darn good reasons for saying so, definitely the most valid character to ban on the roster of any

Except you shouldn't ban him based on RNG, but on how strong the character actually is. All this talk of 0 to death at center stage means jack if it cannot be replicated often AND it's easily countered by shielding.

RNG is not the problem, overpowered strength is.

 

I think the problem people have with Hero weighs more down to the ridiculous amount of options the character has, personally.

RNG is not the problem, overpowered strength is.

Also this.

 

I think the problem people have with Hero weighs more down to the ridiculous amount of options the character has, personally.


Also this.

The thing is that his 'huge pool of options' get shut down just by getting in his personal space. His options are quite limited. It's also going to take a very special kind of player who can completely shift his focus from the game itself to managing his menu to gain access to those options while also GIVING UP his options of playing the game itself (Such as giving up an edge guard or combo rare chance just to flick through the menu).

He has options. He has strength. He has some RNG. But he is easily rushed down, easily edge guarded, lacks any real combo potential in general, has pretty awful frame data on the whole, and so on.

A ban within a week of release with no actual tournament results is absolutely foolish and is reaction out of fear and general distaste and not logic or genuine care/respect of the game and the players who play it. Give them time to learn, adapt and so on. Let the problem be solved, if there is even a problem to begin with (I genuinely believe there isn't one).

 

The thing is that his 'huge pool of options' get shut down just by getting in his personal space. His options are quite limited. It's also going to take a very special kind of player who can completely shift his focus from the game itself to managing his menu to gain access to those options while also GIVING UP his options of playing the game itself (Such as giving up an edge guard or combo rare chance just to flick through the menu).

He has options. He has strength. He has some RNG. But he is easily rushed down, easily edge guarded, lacks any real combo potential in general, has pretty awful frame data on the whole, and so on.

A ban within a week of release with no actual tournament results is absolutely foolish and is reaction out of fear and general distaste and not logic or genuine care of the meta game.

can't speak for the other poster, but on my end, when I say "the problem" i more mean "the problem people have with Hero and his design"

We haven't even seen him in a major yet (we will this weekend... maybe); the meta's going to take at least a month or two. It was the same with Joker.

 

can't speak for the other poster, but on my end, when I say "the problem" i more mean "the problem people have with Hero and his design"

We haven't even seen him in a major yet (we will this weekend... maybe); the meta's going to take at least a month or two. It was the same with Joker.

Yeah, the most I saw was a few snippets here and there but he didn't do well. I think MKLeo used him for one game but got thrashed by a G&W player during that game, thus he went right too Joker again. so...yeah, I don't even think Leo sees any real need to learn the character when Joker is just better overall.