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The Great Stage Debate: Hazards off entire tournament?

Should the Hazard setting be locked to one setting during tournaments?

  • Yes, always hazards ON.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, always hazards OFF.

    Votes: 18 22.8%
  • No, the setting should be changed as needed.

    Votes: 61 77.2%

  • Total voters
    79

TheBuzzSaw

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I think most of us saw the hazard toggle as a godsend for competitive smash. It can only be a good thing, right? It will convert many previously banned stages to perfectly reasonable ones!

While everyone is busy discussing which hazard mode of which stages ought to be legal, there is an important discussion happening underneath: there is talk of leaving hazards off for the entirety of the tournament. The reason for this is to reduce chance of human error: the hazard toggle is tucked away in the rule settings; it is not a quickly accessible mode the same way Omega or Battlefield are.



--- THEBUZZSAW OPINION BEGINS HERE ---

Do we support the tossing of stages to protect a setting from having to change?

While I can empathize with TOs wanting to keep things simple, I feel this is a big mistake. We continue to neuter competitive play by insisting that players should never have to adapt to their surroundings. To be clear, I'm opposing the idea that we ought to (for example) have hazards off for stages like Smashville or Lylat. The slow moving platform on Smashville is great how it quietly changes the situation for both players. Sorry, you can't have your completely straightforward edge guard opportunity! You have to read the opponent going for the platform instead! Are we worried about... matches taking too long?

I'll just reiterate: this is not a thread about whether specific (hazard-enabled) stages are competitively viable; it's specifically about this notion of keeping the hazard toggle set to one thing and never changed.
 
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Enderwoman

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I think in the end it depends on how convenient it is to do in the UI, if it takes too long to manage and players end up getting confused the first few tourneys then they'll probably just end up having it off because more stages people like are available that way. People are really hankering to play Warioware and Pokemon Stadium without their gimmicks, moreso than I think people want to play Smashville with its moving platform.
 

Ryu_Ken

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I think this is the simplest route we can take with this game in terms of deciding legal stages under Hazards On/Off:
Hazards Off: All Starter/Neutral/Counterpick stages
Hazards On: Counterpick stages only

Remember that in Ultimate, you choose a stage before selecting a character. Therefore, when a loser counterpicks a stage, the other player will be able to change their character/playstyle according to their pick. Moving platforms/stages (Like Smashville/Fountain of Dreams) and miniscule hazards (like Dream land) should be counterpick stages since they give a slight advantage to certain players/characters but isn't meta/game-breaking (or as some would put it a "degenerate playstyle").
 

Jexulus

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As much as I am all for variety, this is something that needs to be done deliberately and carefully during the stage selecting process. Otherwise a Hazards Off stage might accidentally be left On and, worst case scenario, force a reset in the middle of a round once the mistake is made apparent. Granted, that's worst case scenario, but all it takes is someone not paying attention or unfamiliar with their local stage rules (it's definitely going to be different across the various locals early on) for this to slip under the radar a couple of times. The TOs might know what's supposed to happen, and even most players and people working the event. But this is one of those cases where the chain is as strong as its weakest link.

On paper, it's definitely something that can be kept track of, especially since now the selection process is Rules>Stage>Characters. In practice, it might be something just "out of the way" enough that it leaves too much to chance and human error might ice a few rounds. It's the sort of thing that I'm sure a lot of local events will attempt at first, and hopefully there won't be too many incidents of rounds being reset.
 

jwillenn

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If there is no quick toggle function for applying Hazards On, Hazards Off, Omega, and Battlefield forms (like there is for Omega in Smash 4U) while at stage select, you can at least save two rulesets. One would be set to hazards on, the other to off. Backtracking from stage select to the menu where the ruleset is selected is a matter of a couple of seconds. There's no need to leave it at hazards off.

I think this is the simplest route we can take with this game in terms of deciding legal stages under Hazards On/Off:
Hazards Off: All Starter/Neutral/Counterpick stages
Hazards On: Counterpick stages only
I think "Starter/Neutral/Counterpick Stage" culture is unnecessary for this game, and it would cease to be if I had the power. There's just "legal stages".

I'd explore a different method from stage striking for first stage pick.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-legal-smash-ultimate-stage-list.457909/post-22697931

Also, I'd start with a small roster of "unique platform layouts", which is the direction most are headed in anyway. It's looking like 10 or so. Most are sticking to what has worked historically, which still leaves Ultimate with a larger selection of legal stages than ever before. Just not MUCH larger (hazards off hopes shattered, yes). BUT that's perfect for December! If it has to remain that way, so be it. BUT the door would be open for players to make cases for other stages to be added to the list of legals down the road. Omega & BF Forms are awesome for sheer background and music variety and should be the loser's option too.

It's unfortunate that they didn't just let us copy and paste platform layouts to any Battlefield or FD form. That would make for a sweet feature update in 2019 though. "My Stages" would also be a great QoL feature update.
 
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Ryu_Ken

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I think "Starter/Neutral/Counterpick Stage" culture is unnecessary for this game, and it would cease to be if I had the power. There's just "legal stages".
The platforming/positioning aspect of this game is why we have counterpicks because not all stages are created equal. "Legal stages" would imply they're perfectly balanced for everyone to fight on, yet that is not the case because certain nuances favor certain characters.

I'd start with a small roster of "unique platform layouts", which is the direction most are headed in anyway. It's looking like 10 or so. Most are sticking to what has worked historically, which still leaves Ultimate with a larger selection of legal stages than ever before. Just not MUCH larger (hazards off hopes shattered, yes). BUT that's perfect for December! If it has to remain that way, so be it. BUT the door would be open for players to make cases for other stages to be added to the list of legals down the road. Omega & BF Forms are awesome for sheer background and music variety and should be the loser's option too.
I see where people are coming from with the "unique platform layouts," but that would mean banning "repeats" that were legal starters in previous Smash games, which doesn't make sense to me. Arguably, it's harder to add things to a game than it is to ban them, so I'd much rather start with a larger stage list, then cut down on it as the meta evolves and stage/character nuances are discovered.

It's unfortunate that they didn't just let us copy and paste platform layouts to any Battlefield or FD form. That would make for a sweet feature update in 2019 though. "My Stages" would also be a great QoL feature update.
Custom platform layouts... for 200 stages? Wew.
And yeah, I wish there was an additional option to change how stages are displayed on the SSS. Picking from 100+ stages can be quite intimidating.
 

nutbutter

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i think hazards shod be turned of only if we have to so the stage would be liegal
 

jwillenn

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The platforming/positioning aspect of this game is why we have counterpicks because not all stages are created equal. "Legal stages" would imply they're perfectly balanced for everyone to fight on, yet that is not the case because certain nuances favor certain characters.
With the stage->character selection process Ultimate has complied with, what would you (and I don't mean you) counter using a stage? The character you're not certain your opponent is even going to pick? Wait. You thought you were going to counterpick me with this? *Rex's Voice* Taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis! Perhaps the stage doesn't show the favoritism to that character you thought your opponent would pick. Instead, your opponent goes to a secondary that you are actually far less comfortable fighting than would you have been fighting the character he might have picked given a different stage selection. It's crazy, I know. Or maybe I'm crazy!

I see where people are coming from with the "unique platform layouts," but that would mean banning "repeats" that were legal starters in previous Smash games, which doesn't make sense to me. Arguably, it's harder to add things to a game than it is to ban them, so I'd much rather start with a larger stage list, then cut down on it as the meta evolves and stage/character nuances are discovered.
If you start large, then you run the risk of having results for earlier tournaments that included "no good stages". Why do that when you can run "good stages" the entire time? Time is the ally in this. They have time do decide if some of the iffy stages can be introduced to the legal stage selection menu. And I don't think adding would be difficult. Test and add. Elite Battle streams will help with this (maybe). The news will circulate. In fact, by Evo we could see double (who am I kidding).

Custom platform layouts... for 200 stages? Wew.
And yeah, I wish there was an additional option to change how stages are displayed on the SSS. Picking from 100+ stages can be quite intimidating.
Easy.
The stage selection menu remains as we know it but with new functions in 2019.
Position cursor over the background you wish to play on.
Press Y to toggle Omega/Battlefield Form/Normal. THIS IS ALREADY IN ULTIMATE! (there's one for music too)
Press X to toggle Platform Layout (from those added).
Press L to toggle Hazards On/Off
You can even see the changes in the big view of the stage on the left side. Heck, you'll see moving platforms too.
Press and Hold X to reach the "Add New Platform Layout" function.
From there, select a stage to add its default platform layout. There would also be a "Do For All Backgrounds" option.
Press Z to Save/Send To "My Stages".

2nd Tab of Stage Selection Menu is "My Stages". Run that Random Select to get the first set going.

Not "yikes". LIKES! :colorful:

(from August direct)
at 11:38
You can see the toggle function for not only music, but regular to battlefield to omega... Goodness knows there should be a third toggle option right there for hazards on or off (and all that other stuff I was talking about earlier for a features update). Maybe the final build has it?

Regardless, perhaps the idea of persistently communicating "Pay Attention" to players could alleviate concerns. For example. Simply have signs at tables that reminds players to be mindful of hazards being on or off when making their selections.

@Ryu_Ken
I get it now. My problem was thinking the reasoning behind one's stage counterpick choice was more driven by the opponent's character rather than the chooser's. It's primarily about the chooser picking a stage that suits his/her play style as well as character. For example. A sword user who is big on utilizing techniques that require platforms may want BF. Although the chooser can consider the opponent's character and style in his reasoning, he is more interested in his own. So now I understand why it doesn't matter that stage select is officially first in the process
I hope... :laugh:
 
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Frihetsanka

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I feel like the result of this poll is going to be skewed for two main reasons:

#1. The first is that the first post is not very neutral at all, but instead argues a point (and doesn't address the reason why people don't want to switch between hazards on and off).

#2. The second reason is that many people seem to think that there's a hazard toggle similar to the Omega toggle in Smash 4. There isn't, and this is the reason why hazards are always set to off, namely the risk of human error is too great (someone might forget to turn hazards back off after a set, for instance, and then some other people start the next set on Pokémon Stadium 2 with hazards on).

Regarding people posting in this thread: Chances are characters will be picked before stage for game 1 (as it should be). So you first pick character and then stage for game 1, like in Smash 4.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I feel like the result of this poll is going to be skewed for two main reasons:

#1. The first is that the first post is not very neutral at all, but instead argues a point (and doesn't address the reason why people don't want to switch between hazards on and off).

#2. The second reason is that many people seem to think that there's a hazard toggle similar to the Omega toggle in Smash 4. There isn't, and this is the reason why hazards are always set to off, namely the risk of human error is too great (someone might forget to turn hazards back off after a set, for instance, and then some other people start the next set on Pokémon Stadium 2 with hazards on).

Regarding people posting in this thread: Chances are characters will be picked before stage for game 1 (as it should be). So you first pick character and then stage for game 1, like in Smash 4.
You're right. I'm not very neutral on this discussion, but I'll update it to include the fact that the switch is not easily accessible.

We don't have to keep that rule set. Let's simply expose the stage selection before fighter selection.
 

ParanoidDrone

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In a perfect world, switching back and forth as necessary would be the ideal.

Realistically, I honestly have a hard time seeing the supermajors like EVO and Apex willing to run the risk inherent in players changing the settings on a match-by-match basis. There's too much room for human error (remember the 0.9x damage ratio at Genesis?) and potentially malicious "error" as well. And from there, I imagine smaller regionals and locals will simply adopt the supermajor ruleset.

So while I personally have nothing against the idea of switching between hazards on and off (as long as we don't put Smashville on the list twice, once for each...), I think we'll eventually end up at permanent hazards off.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I've largely accepted that that will be the case for most events. I just want to talk through it in hopes of convincing a TO or two to at least research the viability of allowing hazardous stages. (Or I simply have to return to being a TO myself.)
 

Crystanium

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The competitive and professional scene is pretty finicky. Maybe it's best to let someone who isn't part of the scene to chaperone. "Ban stages that have hazards." "You can turn off hazards? Awesome!" "Oh, no! With hazards off, things I benefitted from are gone! I don't want to learn to adapt." Having to switch hazards on and off sounds rather tedious, time-consuming, and a turn off for viewers. Yes, viewers matter, so don't even pretend they don't. Imagine if you were at a tournament and after every match you decided to back out to make a new tag with a different control layout. Ridiculous.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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The competitive and professional scene is pretty finicky. Maybe it's best to let someone who isn't part of the scene to chaperone. "Ban stages that have hazards." "You can turn off hazards? Awesome!" "Oh, no! With hazards off, things I benefitted from are gone! I don't want to learn to adapt." Having to switch hazards on and off sounds rather tedious, time-consuming, and a turn off for viewers. Yes, viewers matter, so don't even pretend they don't. Imagine if you were at a tournament and after every match you decided to back out to make a new tag with a different control layout. Ridiculous.
Heh. I'm actually thinking of the viewers with my effort to preserve stage variety. I disagree that the time needed to switch modes would be an exuberant cost. (TOs will still ban it. I simply feel that it's worth the effort.) Commentators take over during this time and keep things interesting until the next set starts.
 
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Uffe

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If the hazards off give us more stage variety, then I'd prefer it off.
 

Frihetsanka

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If the hazards off give us more stage variety, then I'd prefer it off.
There are three options:

1. Hazards always off
2. Hazards always on
3. Switching between hazards off/on

2. would give us less stage variety in general compared to 1, so I don't see much point in 2. I guess if you really like Battlefield clones you might prefer 2, but we'd lose many other viable stages. 3 would be good if we could do it easily, but we cannot, and the risk of missing up is too great (so 1 seems like the preferable option).
 

Uffe

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There are three options:

1. Hazards always off
2. Hazards always on
3. Switching between hazards off/on

2. would give us less stage variety in general compared to 1, so I don't see much point in 2. I guess if you really like Battlefield clones you might prefer 2, but we'd lose many other viable stages. 3 would be good if we could do it easily, but we cannot, and the risk of missing up is too great (so 1 seems like the preferable option).
While I didn't cast my vote, I was already looking at hazards off, if it gives us more stages. Too bad the Hazard option doesn't work like it does with items. Turn off the hazards for specific stages while leaving certain ones on. I'd still turn the hazard off for Lylat Cruise, however.
 

WritersBlah

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This is a vote I feel I can't place in complete faith because I don't know exactly how difficult or fast it would take to actually swap from a hazards on to a hazards off ruleset in the menu. It could be really fast, or it could be really cumbersome. Ideally, in a best case scenario, I think toggling the hazards switch on for a few specific stages wouldn't be so bad, but if it proves to be particularly difficult or unclear to tell whether hazards are currently on or off, then it may simply be more beneficial to leave them off permanently. We fortunately do not miss out on too much by leaving the hazards switch off.
 

dav3yb

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I'm mostly for keeping hazards off completely, but I wouldn't mind too much switching as needed. The only reason I wouldn't mind that is because we get to preemptively create the rule sets. So you really won't need to go into the options to change things, just back out and select the other rule set. If that's what it takes to have more stages, then I'd support it.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I'm mostly for keeping hazards off completely, but I wouldn't mind too much switching as needed. The only reason I wouldn't mind that is because we get to preemptively create the rule sets. So you really won't need to go into the options to change things, just back out and select the other rule set. If that's what it takes to have more stages, then I'd support it.
You know...that might actually work.

Although I'll reiterate my burning desire to not have hazards-on Smashville and hazards-off Smashville as separate stages in the stage list. (Or any stage, really, but Smashville is the only one I've seen serious suggestions for in this vein.)
 
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dav3yb

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You know...that might actually work.

Although I'll reiterate my burning desire to not have hazards-on Smashville and hazards-off Smashville as separate stages in the stage list. (Or any stage, really, but Smashville is the only one I've seen serious suggestions for in this vein.)
You could just have Yoshi's Island Brawl be the hazard off version, and smashville the hazard on version.
 

WritersBlah

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You could just have Yoshi's Island Brawl be the hazard off version, and smashville the hazard on version.
If I'm being completely honest, I think there are only four stages that are better in hazards on: Smashville, Town & City, Yoshi's Story, and Fountain of Dreams. If we're swapping out the ruleset to select one of these four stages, then so long as people can actually keep track of which ruleset is which, I don't see why this can't be an option.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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If I'm being completely honest, I think there are only four stages that are better in hazards on: Smashville, Town & City, Yoshi's Story, and Fountain of Dreams. If we're swapping out the ruleset to select one of these four stages, then so long as people can actually keep track of which ruleset is which, I don't see why this can't be an option.
I'm still fighting for Frigate Orpheon with hazards enabled. The rotation is audibly announced, and it's possible the rotation-KO is gone.
 

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I'm still fighting for Frigate Orpheon with hazards enabled. The rotation is audibly announced, and it's possible the rotation-KO is gone.
I personally wouldn't mind, but I'm being more conservative than usual in my projections. If I'm talking stages I'd personally prefer with hazards on, I'd throw in Umbra Clock Tower, Pokemon Stadium 1, and Arena Ferox in there. But that said, I realize these would probably get a lot of push back, so I haven't really been throwing them out there.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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It really depends on the stage. Town and City can function with hazards on, while we should probably turn off hazards on Halberd.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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It really depends on the stage. Town and City can function with hazards on, while we should probably turn off hazards on Halberd.
Yes. That is the crux of this discussion. Many hazard-on stages are perfectly neutral, but TOs are putting forth the argument that it's too hard and too risky to allow players to tamper with settings between matches. They may forget to turn hazards back off.
 

Bunk McSkunk

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I don't believe there would be a scenario in which switching between hazards is so cumbersome it creates concerns for players and TOs. The excursion to go switch the rules should only take around ten seconds give or take, if it would be a ritual to check every time the element of confusion is mitigated and the probability of momentum loss is highly unlikely. Ideally there may be a toggle on the stage select, like how Omega works in Smash 4. After all, Smash 4 did have a setting in the rules to do Omega only as well.

Where the issue lies for me is what position the hazard toggle is in the rules, in the case that there is no toggle for some ungodly reason. This effects how easy it would be to accidentally mess with something like launch rate, which very famously would create serious problems that I understand wanting to avoid. However, in this iteration we have preset rules we can select from, and I would imagine this decreases the possibility. This assumes that changing the preset rules is as easy as swiping right when you get to the rules screen, but that's something we can't know yet.

Not trying to do a hybrid rule set would be the greater crime than deciding after practice that we cannot realistically use Hazards On stages.
 

Ryu_Ken

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Does anyone have any footage of the process of going through rules>stages>characters (I'm not talking about the August direct)? I haven't been able to see any footage of that since I've mostly seen players fight on a stage on one match, then they go to the character select screen and the next match immediately starts on a different stage. I feel it would definitely help with figuring out how much of a "hassle" it is to navigate the menus.
 

Untouch

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While the hassle of switching on and off is a problem, it isn't the big problem.
The big problem is accidentally leaving the toggle on. Some stages (PS and CS) take a while to transform, people aren't going to want to reset the match 30 seconds in. PS1 and CS aren't huge issues, but PS2 and Skyloft are.
 

Ryu_Ken

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While the hassle of switching on and off is a problem, it isn't the big problem.
The big problem is accidentally leaving the toggle on. Some stages (PS and CS) take a while to transform, people aren't going to want to reset the match 30 seconds in. PS1 and CS aren't huge issues, but PS2 and Skyloft are.
I think it'll become immediately obvious to players whether they're playing with Hazards On or not, so it won't be like that infamous Sm4sh tournament. Players want to have a fair match in a competitive environment, so if they realize something's off, they'll want to reset the match. I'm wondering how going through the rules>stages>characters screen works and what's the most convenient/fastest way to switch between them (like can you go from characters>rules or do you have to go from characters>stages>rules). That way, TOs can explain to both new and old Smash players how to navigate the new menu system in order to double-check the pre-set rules and whether or not Hazards On/Off was mistakenly toggled.
Menu navigation in Ultimate is completely different from previous Smash games, so this is important to know.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Yes. That is the crux of this discussion. Many hazard-on stages are perfectly neutral, but TOs are putting forth the argument that it's too hard and too risky to allow players to tamper with settings between matches. They may forget to turn hazards back off.
Then restart the match. It's a logistical issue, so it shouldn't interfere with the set.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Then restart the match.
Simple on paper. Less simple in life when players become upset at lost progress. While I agree with fighting to keep as many stages legal as possible, I also understand and support TOs desire to avoid these kinds of incidents. It's really not as straightforward as we would hope.
 

Aixy

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Who cares if it takes longer to go back to the main menu and turn Hazards on and off per match? Why is it such a big deal? The very minor time sacrifice is worth it imo until they patch it into the stage select. Let's celebrate stage diversity!

Maybe do it once per matchup instead of every single fight? It could be voted on before the opponents square off in however many matches they have? So people are only going back to the main menu once a new set of opponents is ready? Until it receives a fix.
 
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Diem

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We continue to neuter competitive play by insisting that players should never have to adapt to their surroundings. To be clear, I'm opposing the idea that we ought to (for example) have hazards off for stages like Smashville or Lylat. The slow moving platform on Smashville is great how it quietly changes the situation for both players. Sorry, you can't have your completely straightforward edge guard opportunity! You have to read the opponent going for the platform instead! Are we worried about... matches taking too long?
This is how I've always felt about competitive Smash and stage selection. Part of the strategy in Smash is using the dynamic qualities of stages to your advantage. If you know the timing, or are able to react to a change in the stage the correct way, it adds more depth and excitement to the game, rather than it constantly just being flat stages with different floating platforms all the time.

I can understand some stages like Gamer or Lylat Cruise obviously being bad for competitive play, or ones with "stage bosses" like Yellow Devil or Ridley, but the fact that even stages with minor dynamic elements are considered bad for competitive play has always bothered me, especially when those elements are predictable, like Frigate Orpheon and Pokemon Stadium.

I remember someone complaining about the Omega versions of stages in Smash 4, saying something along the lines of "That's not what we want, Sakurai!" like Sakurai should know what these nebulous rules are that determine whether stages are viable for competitive play or not, and that instead of the Omega mode, it should've turned the stage into a different layout that's viable. You can't please anyone, it seems.

At least now we have Battlefield and hazard toggle, so we can try out more stages and have more variety.
 
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TheBuzzSaw

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Who cares if it takes longer to go back to the main menu and turn Hazards on and off per match? Why is it such a big deal? The very minor time sacrifice is worth it imo until they patch it into the stage select. Let's celebrate stage diversity!

Maybe do it once per matchup instead of every single fight? It could be voted on before the opponents square off in however many matches they have? So people are only going back to the main menu once a new set of opponents is ready? Until it receives a fix.
It's all about logistics. This probably won't be a big deal at tiny local tournaments, but it doesn't scale terribly well. The bigger the tournament, the more people show up, the more newbies show up, the more likely people will screw things up and accidentally play on banned stages and want to reset the match, etc. I'm still fighting to keep the stage list big, but I can totally see how we might not get our way. :(
 

Frihetsanka

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The guy who wrote that illustrated the main issue well.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Maybe the correct answer is we need Hazards ON all the time. Screw all the stages that could have been legal. If this is it what it takes to rescue the last few interesting stages, maybe it's worth it.
 

Frihetsanka

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Maybe the correct answer is we need Hazards ON all the time. Screw all the stages that could have been legal. If this is it what it takes to rescue the last few interesting stages, maybe it's worth it.
Hazards on would kill many interesting stages in exchange for... Better Town & City, Smashville + Yoshi's Island Brawl with Hazards on, and a bunch of Battlefield-like stages. Seems like a bad trade.
 

Untouch

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Maybe the correct answer is we need Hazards ON all the time. Screw all the stages that could have been legal. If this is it what it takes to rescue the last few interesting stages, maybe it's worth it.
We get 3 stages (which are all legal with hazards off anyways) having moving platforms, but lose over 10 neutral stages if we go that way.
 

Pyr

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Maybe the correct answer is we need Hazards ON all the time. Screw all the stages that could have been legal. If this is it what it takes to rescue the last few interesting stages, maybe it's worth it.
Well, that's the issue. There are benefits and costs to each. Half the stages in the game are already banned because of Caves of Life, gaps, excessive size, and walkoffs. That, and each person has their own individual view on what makes a stage, "good" and "interesting."

Someone wanna help me with a list?

Off (12-14):
  • Battlefield (Dream Land, Yoshi's Story, Fountain, Midgar)
  • FD (Kalos Pokemon League, Wily Castle, Gamer)
  • Rainbow Cruise (Heard it's just the boat?)
  • Brinstar
  • Pokemon Stadium 1 (Pokemon Stadium 2, Unova)
  • Delfino (Since jank from transitions were fixed?)
  • WarioWare
  • Smashville (Yoshi's Island)
  • Town and City
  • Frigate
  • Lylat
  • Castle Siege
  • Arena Ferox
  • Umbra Clock Tower
On (9-11):

  • Battlefield (Dreamland)
  • FD
  • Yoshi's Story
  • Fountain
  • Pokemon Stadium 1 (possible cave of life in windmill is solid still?)
  • Delfino (Since jank from transitions were fixed?)
  • Frigate
  • Yoshi's Island
  • Lylat
  • Smashville
  • Town and City
I'm SURE I missed a few since I'm not 100% how each stage works yet. Help me out on this one.

So, the question is this: Which set is more balanced, competitively interesting, and will stand the test of time?

Also, are the stages grouped up in "Off" all so similar that they are interchangeable? From exact layout to blast zones? If not, how badly would it hurt/how much would it help to make it a "separate" stage?
 
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