The gap between Marth and Lucina

[Arthur97]

Actually, Lucina didn't just get nothing in Ultimate, she was nerfed. Somewhat unnecessary in my mind as she isn't exactly a dominating force. Especially in a world where Joker hasn't really been touched much if at all.

 

[Flowen231]

Well yeah lol. In 4 Lucina's up smash would kill around 90 with a bit of rage. Jab 1 is gone, dancing blade is less consistent and is worse at killing, dancing blade no longer true sets up for other moves, dolphin slash geting a bit of a range cut + less magnet hands on marcina really adds up, less hitstun means that air to air combos barely exist and at mid+ percents you get no more than 2 hits, up throw doesn't exist, doing anything out of run all but makes the fastest walk speed in game irrelevant, and increased air speeds + directional air dodges + reduced landing lag on neutral air dodges is worse for their juggling, counter has a smaller hitbox, some of their aerial hitboxes got slight duration reductions, she is more floaty in this game which is bad for her and marcina as a whole imo. I'm sure there were more changes but that's just off the top of my head.

Marth got all those changes + the tipper stuff. Now that we're talking about it though, you gotta marvel at just how much player perception has changed since 4. In 4 marcina were almost always next to each other in end game tier lists and they were considered by most to be the lowest top tiers in spite of the best player using Marth. These days Lucina is often placed in top 5 in spite of the nerfs in a game with more top tiers than the last one. I'm starting to think that she's more so an overrated high tier rather than a top tier at this point.

I more so want buffs for Marth though. I used them both in 4 as a 2 in 1 secondary but I enjoyed Marth more because getting the reward was consistent enough with some practice. In this game it feels like no matter how hard you practice tippers are worse RNG than Hero's crits. I hope that's not what the design team was aiming for.

 

[NinfanNanz]

I think the only reason they haven't buffed Marth yet, is because while he needs fixes, he isn't in DIRE need of fixes. Most patches address really low tier characters and really top tier characters. Plus we haven't gotten a true balance update in a couple of months. I do hope we get something soon though. Marth is really fun, just needs to be a bit better. I would like him to have better combos haha.

 

[CaptainAnime]

marth could use buffs but im more looking for fixes in his hitboxes so that they match the animation

 

[Flowen231]

marth could use buffs but im more looking for fixes in his hitboxes so that they match the animation

That too. I remember Ike had that problem real bad in smash 4 and they fixed it relatively quickly.

 

[Hydde]

Marth indeed needs something. He has a hard time killing and also lacks set ups and combos to capitalize on his checks.

 

[SirLink]

The problem I see with buffing Marth is that it would have to be done in a way that doesn't affect Lucina since she's widely considered a top tier, albeit a bit overrated in my eyes. Having our old Up-throw back would be very helpful for times where you just can't land that one tipper to kill but people would be upset if Lucina got a buff like that, even though she can struggle to kill as well. Not as bad as Marth naturally, but it's there.

Overall fixes such as the massive blindspot on up-air that doesn't match the sword trail or making Dancing Blade actually connect properly at higher percent windows would benefit Lucina as well and I could see people complaining that she's already good as is.

The most likely option here is to simply give Marth's tippers some love to make it more consistently worth playing around them. I recently ran some tests to compare kill moves from both characters to see the differences between Marth tipper, Lucina and Marth sour hits. Some moves really don't look very good for the Hero King.

Some sourspot moves kill basically never, but that's fine as long as the reward for tipping them is there. F-Tilt gets this balance right, being arguably Marth's best move in this game and carrying him a lot in my experience.

My biggest issue here is with his aerials, most notably back-air. Lucina's version of the move is legitimately insane compared to Marth. Marth is supposed to get a difficult tipper and his reward is killing ~13% earlier? And if he doesn't get it he kills a whopping ~52% later? It's practically a joke of a move with a very unbalanced reward for spacing it. Sourspot back-air is so pathetic it barely even sets up for a good edgeguard at kill percent. Likewise, the reward for hitting a tipper up-air also feels underwhelming given that the move can still be a bit delicate to tip.

Back-air tipper should kill 10-15% earlier. Adjust the hitboxes so the middle sourspot has less overlap with the tipper, similar to his other moves.
Up-air tipper should also kill 10-15% earlier.
Neutral-air tipper kills fine as it is. Hit 1 not properly connecting into Hit 2 is a completely separate issue that also affects Lucina.
Forward-air tipper is much worse than Smash 4 but since they nerfed Lucina's as well I doubt it'll get reversed. They likely nerfed its power to make run-off fair in people's face less effective due to worse airdodges off-stage. Still hurts a lot losing it as a reliable killing option on-stage, though.

My suggested changes would merely be a band-aid, but they'd address what I currently find the most lacking with Marth. Though ideally he should be in a spot where there's actual discussion whether Marth or Lucina is better or who is better in a certain match-up, at this point I'd be happy with a little boost like this. This would at least prevent cases where those moves barely didn't kill and Marth has to fish for the kill even longer. F-Tilt (and Up-Tilt to a degree) is good and all, but once people play around it Marth is stuck trying to kill with his underwhelming aerials. This was very obvious to see at Summit 2, where MkLeo's Marth started struggling a lot once his opponents stopped letting him land tipper F-Tilt to close out stocks.

Like it has already been mentioned above, Marth is in the dangerous spot where he's potentially considered "good enough" despite needing fixes to justify his gimmick. I want to stay optimistic, but there's a real chance he'll stay irrelevant as he is now while lower-tier characters get juicy buffs and potentially move past him. Hopefully that won't be the case, especially with the extended DLC bringing us more future patches than originally expected.

 

[CaptainAnime]

SirLink are u in the marcina discord?

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

Putting emphasis on kill %s at mid stage of course is going to make it seem like Lucina is the stronger character numbers wise because of sour spots. The character itself's win condition is tech chasing and edge guarding. Neither character is done justice looking at a chart like that because it doesn't show how they actually operate, and both are horrible at killing off stray hits there. Problems like sour Bair also disappearing during edge guarding. Dancing blade itself has been figured out at as a move by now and basically boils down "As Lucina just use forward forward down forward and you'll be fine and with Marth all forward while not mashing and you'll be fine". Also Up-air doesn't really need a fix? I guess you can argue the animation can make it confusing but the hit box has been the same through all the games, just an added trail in 4 to make it not look stupid. The move have been largely unchanged otherwise.

 

[SirLink]

I wouldn't say Lucina is horrible at killing off stray hits on-stage simply because her back-air exists and Lucina players get a lot of kills with that move. Naturally it's better at the ledge but it's still a legitimate and fairly reliable option mid-stage at higher percents that Marth doesn't have since his back-air is one of the least consistent tippers to get in this game. Edgeguarding and tech chasing is good and all, the issue here is that you have to hunt for very specific things and when you don't get what you need Marth is in big trouble. In Smash 4 he had Jab 1 into imagination and a far better Upthrow to cover these scenarios before they got out of hand, on top of having a much easier to hit tipper back-air and much stronger tipper forward-air for stray hit kills on-stage.

Marth's big issue is killing and while he can kill very early with tipper FSmash, a shield break or tipper DB4 it doesn't happen often enough to justify using him. That's why I suggested giving his aerials a bit of juice to help him out in an area that Lucina is just flat-out better than him because she still has very good reward for not having to space. People love to jump in Ultimate, after all. Even the mentioned back-air change would make a huge difference in my eyes. I don't need Marth to be top tier as well (though I disagree that Lucina is one to begin with). I merely want him to be able to more reliably take stocks at reasonable percents like a lot of other characters in this game can.

Up-air having always been the same doesn't sound like a good argument to me when we have several other FE reps with very similar animations that don't work like that. It's likely intentional at this point - presumably to differentiate the moves to avoid straight cloning - but that doesn't make it look less stupid when the sword trail just goes through the opponent and does nothing. Even the hitbox visualizations without the sword trail look off, since the hitboxes just disappear before the swing is over.

 

[CaptainAnime]

I don't think it's intentional considering the fact that Roy's and Chrom's up air doesn't have this problem and works perfectly

 

[SirLink]

I don't think it's intentional considering the fact that Roy's and Chrom's up air doesn't have this problem and works perfectly

What I was trying to say is that I doubt that they simply 'forgot' to change Marcina's up-air to the way the same animation works for Roy/Chrom and even Corrin (though Corrin has worse start-up at frame 7). The fact that they still haven't changed it makes me think it was intentional, not accidental. Given that Marcina only really received nerfs from Smash 4 to Ultimate (excluding universal buffs to jumpsquat, landing lag, ground/air speed etc.), I wouldn't even be surprised if they didn't want Marcina to have that. That might sound bitter, but being able to angle Shield Breaker really doesn't make up for everything they took away in this game.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

You're not fishing for anything in neutral for something specific to start a tech chase when his whole neutral kit and almost every move he has is made to start tech chases. Falling aerials, dtilt, ftilt, and DA all easily start tech chases at the right % and it just happens from playing neutral. He doesn't need and has never needed jab 1, that move literally carried people and is unhealthy and a large reason why people are struggling with him now. I also just don't think Lucina having back air is as reliable as you think it considering how often people like proto and Leo have opponents live past 160-170 without a clean edge guard or tech chase. Lucina's back air is comparable to Marth and his Ftilt, an amazing kill option when you're in the position to land it but neither is just an a sudden answer to both of them having a hard time killing

 

[SirLink]

I feel like you're overselling the utility of tech chases as one of Marth's two big options to close out stocks. They can happen from various interactions indeed, but still require you to read the correct tech option and hit the tipper in many cases to actually kill. You're not wrong that tech chasing and edgeguarding are his strengths because they certainly are, but if those strengths were enough to consistently rely on we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. It's not like only a handful of people think Marth needs changes.

I can agree that Jab 1 isn't a good solution or fit for the character, but it was still a great option that was simply taken away without anything being given in return. This game is no stranger to silly kill confirms or setups on many other characters and on that scale it wasn't even that crazy.

Yes, Lucina can also frequently struggle to kill and her back-air isn't a magical cure for that. When she does land one though, it's very likely or guaranteed to outright take the stock at higher percents. That's why I have issues with Marth's. The tipper is unreliable and barely stronger while the sourspot simply doesn't send people far enough to put them in bad positions for the edgeguard.

We seem to have very different opinions on the matter, so I'd be curious to hear what you think of Marth in this game in general? Do you think he's fine as he is? If not, what would you change?

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

A late reply from being lazy through thanksgiving holiday

Overall, I'd say most undersell how powerful his tech chases. It's literally everything he could ask for, he has options to cover everything but 1 option depending on what he does because it's fixed movement landing tipper is extremely easy and mess ups during tech chases are strictly caused by the player controlling Marth, rather than any hurtbox shifting that a lot complain about. Everything in his kit sets up for it at large gaps because of sours. There's really no reason to say it isn't one of the most important things to take into consideration when playing him.


My opinions are Marth = Lucina, and that there isn't anything to change. Your comment on sour bair is a decent starting point. You're right to say sour bair doesn't send far enough to put them in edge guard positions, but that isn't really a problem because that's the point, it's a sour. Sours are meant to be combo starters, extenders, and for strings while the tippers are for finishing combos and killing (on stage, specifically). Lucina Bair at around 95+ while start to put them in a bad position to edge guard, but to imply that sour bair wouldn't put them in a bad position at all seems a bit confusing. You're simply just in a different situation now. You might not be at risk to die from an edge guard immediately but rather you're now uncomfortably close to Marth forcing you to quickly pick an option or be punished heavily, while still at risk to be punished picking the wrong option. Their "safest" option would be to jump away in order to avoid the string situation, but where does that leave the character? Without a jump and above Marth? That's quite possibly one of the worst situations to ever be in, just in the game in general with his aerials and up tilt. I have problems with threads like this and a lot of people that play Marcina in this game because it just always feels like instead of understanding how the characters work and that outside of their advantage state nothing is really different (for better or worse). Their shield safety, neutral tools and pokes, ways to get out of disadvantage. Nothing is different. It just feels like that people look at Marth, see that 2 + 2 = 4, and would rather complain that 4 is the answer than accepting the fact that it's 4 and working with it. While watching high/top level play with Marth it's also become very apparent that tippers are in no way inconsistent in this game, and is rather the person controlling him not having enough game knowledge or having not adapted to the new engine speed. People like Leo have AMAZING sour/tipper ratios, the argument that tippers are inconsistent just doesn't make sense anymore outside of people in the same echo chamber. I could probably write more but I feel like I'm starting to ramble and have no real focused direction where I'm taking this, so if you or anyone else has any specific questions you're free to ask.

 

[NinfanNanz]

A late reply from being lazy through thanksgiving holiday

words.....

But sourspots usually don't combo super well, and even if they do, it's even rarer that they'll combo into a killing tipper. You always have to tech chase them. there are very few setups into anything, other than falling nair. The thing that makes lucina better, is her moves have enough knockback at high percents, they are off stage. She may not be able to combo, but she'll put you in a hard disadvantage offstage or kill you at midstage eventually. At least I feel, hahaha.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

But sourspots usually don't combo super well, and even if they do, it's even rarer that they'll combo into a killing tipper. You always have to tech chase them. there are very few setups into anything, other than falling nair. The thing that makes lucina better, is her moves have enough knockback at high percents, they are off stage. She may not be able to combo, but she'll put you in a hard disadvantage offstage or kill you at midstage eventually. At least I feel, hahaha.

All of Marth's falling sour aerials combo very well, it's been like that in every game and this is no exception. Rising aerials while drifting toward them don't combo into anything, but landing with them always has and always will combo. Landing Up Air into Up Tilt or Up Air, possibly dancing blade up 4 if low enough %. Falling Fair and Bair both combo into grab, dancing blade, another aerial or tilt. Nair 1 and Down Air are both literally combo into almost anything you want to do. Sour Nair 2 into Tipper FTilt is a common bread and butter and is something only Marth can do. All falling aerials can also true combo into tipper fsmash as well at different %s which is extremely important being one of the biggest things he has over Lucina.Most of the falling aerials i mentioned Lucina can do as well, mind you. It's just Marth's sour spots let him do this things for longer % ranges. As far as kill confirms are concerned you have things like Landing sour up air and landing sour dair into tipper up air as a very powerful confirm that Lucina can't do. Marth's combo game just heavily revolved around the fact that you have to land with your aerials, which is how the characters wants to be played in the first place with how unsafe rising aerials are on both characters.

 

[NinfanNanz]

but those sours are unsafe. lucina's are much better at comboing because if she tips it, she can combo. Marth's sours aren't really safe on shield because of the distance it puts you at. I guess that's the heart of the issue. Falling aerials are not the only way to combo people in this game. And the fact that he has to land with an aerial to get something off of it is not great. I don't know. Generally, His sours work for longer, but because those sours put him in much easier disadvantage, it causes a lot of problems.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

Sours are not unsafe, they never have been. Unless you're like, right on top of them, but max distance sours are still safe. Hell, even from a frame data perspective they're safe vs a lot of characters but almost always are safe vs everyone because of the distance you're at. For example, if you land right on top of Ganon with sour fair which is - 7 he literally can't punish you unless he reads your next option like with a lot of other characters. As long you're still spacing, even if you don't space for a tipper, you're fine. The only exception for this are all rising aerials are unsafe on shield and rising fair and bair sour and for luci are unsafe on hit.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Ok fair. I never feel those sours are very save, but that's just me.

Regardless, the sours don't combo into anything amazing. Marth won't get anything off of sour fair after 50-60~ i feel. He's really a hyper fencer. Walling you out with fast hits at a distance, but very rarely comboing off of them. I feel like all of his moves hit once and that's almost all you can get out of it.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

Most people tend to have that problem, it most likely doesn't "feel" safe because there's little to not hitlag on sours. Where as Luci has quite a bit of hitlag and Tippers are kinda up there too. Though it doesn't at all effect the actual safety of the moves. It's an adjustment to the game rather than the character, as are most complaints for Marth. Whether you want to make that adjustment is a different discussion, and not something they should have to do if they don't want to
but yeah

That's an accurate statement for anything true, but Marcina isn't supposed to be a combo character in the first place (apologizes if I came off that way at any point). At the point nothing true comes out of it it starts to set up for tech chases which, despite where you can argue relies on a read (which almost everything both characters do well require, including their neutral), is still where both Marth and Lucina shine the most along with edge guarding. Lucina doesn't have the luxury of tech chases above 60+ on most stages because of the one things she's praised for the most, her higher kb compared to sours. Also since it was mentioned earlier and not really touched on again, sour up air and dair can both lead into true tipper up airs for a kill confirm. I forgot exact %s but I'll either edit this post at a later date or add it to my next post should someone reply before then

 

[Hydde]

Ill be honest, all what you say about tech chases sounds good and all, but in the end it still requires precise guessing and cannot be relied to secure a kill.

The problem with marth for example, is that in the end, other characters simply kill with just xonnecting their big killers, while marth depends on tippers and gimps. Otherwise he risks losing the stock even when having % advantage.

Imo the character is flawed, as his killing moves are way harder to execute compared to most of the cast.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

Ill be honest, all what you say about tech chases sounds good and all, but in the end it still requires precise guessing and cannot be relied to secure a kill.

Precise guessing in what way? Both Marth and Lucina have ways (down smash, Dancing blade) to cover multiple options, like most characters mind you, that kill. As well as Marth having the ability to kill EXTREMELY early if the player decides to cover one specific option (which again, they don't have to). The thought process that "it requires precise guessing" can be applies to any aspect of Neutral, advantage and disadvantage for any character if you look at it that vaguely.

The problem with marth for example, is that in the end, other characters simply kill with just xonnecting their big killers, while marth depends on tippers and gimps. Otherwise he risks losing the stock even when having % advantage.

Not really? Almost every top-high tier character struggles to kill a LOT if they don't secure their win condition or a specific safe set up into a reliable kill move. Marth isn't an outlier.

Imo the character is flawed, as his killing moves are way harder to execute compared to most of the cast.

Difficulty =/= viability
Following this logic, Peach shouldn't be that good either because her high damage output is also considerably more difficult to do comparatively

 

[NinfanNanz]

Precise guessing in what way? Both Marth and Lucina have ways (down smash, Dancing blade) to cover multiple options, like most characters mind you, that kill. As well as Marth having the ability to kill EXTREMELY early if the player decides to cover one specific option (which again, they don't have to). The thought process that "it requires precise guessing" can be applies to any aspect of Neutral, advantage and disadvantage for any character if you look at it that vaguely.

Eerr, Lucina gets those kills way easier. Marth has the ability to kill early, but with micro spacing being more difficult in this game, and most of his tippers lack actually killing much on any of his aerials. Looking at the chart SirLink posted, if marth sourspots, he will kill way later than lucina. This accentuated with marth aerials having basically the same shield advantage than Marth (tips are mostly only safer if they are fresh), and her amazing edgeguards. Back air and fair will more often just cause you to be able to not recover. Having dancing blade kill at a reasonable 120, fsmash kill at an amazing 100, and upsmash killing at reasonable 114, she has great options for her down tilt tech chases, which are way more reliable than marth's,

Not really? Almost every top-high tier character struggles to kill a LOT if they don't secure their win condition or a specific safe set up into a reliable kill move. Marth isn't an outlier.

But thats the thing. Marth has to tip even after that win condition. So many times I have read an opponent role, and the weird tipper on fsmash doesn't wanna work with me, and i fail to kill. because of slight mispacing. Most characters don't worry about it, usually if they time it right, they'll get the hit they want. Marth has to time it and space it. and he doesn't even get that rewarded much off of those except for fsmash. Top tiers will be able to get a raw hit in neutral at a kill percent, and either hit and then set up to kill. Marth has no confirms except 1st hit nair, and he has to get a read and precise spacing to kill. I think thats what they meant by precise guessing.

Difficulty =/= viability
Following this logic, Peach shouldn't be that good either because her high damage output is also considerably more difficult to do comparatively

While I somewhat agree with this, Characters that are harder to play, simply should be more rewarded than their easier counterparts. Lucina is better for being a lower risk character.

That's how I feel though.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

Eerr, Lucina gets those kills way easier. Marth has the ability to kill early, but with micro spacing being more difficult in this game, and most of his tippers lack actually killing much on any of his aerials. Looking at the chart SirLink posted, if marth sourspots, he will kill way later than lucina. This accentuated with marth aerials having basically the same shield advantage than Marth (tips are mostly only safer if they are fresh), and her amazing edgeguards. Back air and fair will more often just cause you to be able to not recover. Having dancing blade kill at a reasonable 120, fsmash kill at an amazing 100, and upsmash killing at reasonable 114, she has great options for her down tilt tech chases, which are way more reliable than marth's.

This part of the message confuses me, the only aerial that doesn't really kill is fair. Tipper Nair on stage kills very early, sour fair and bair still kill offstage as an edgeguarding tool just as well as Lucina when it matters. It should be noted that the chart posted is MIDSTAGE, in neutral, where both characters have, to be honest, very high numbers. They both struggle a lot to secure kills in a state like that which skews how you could view it. I'm not really sure where the idea that Lucina would get kills off of tech chases easier comes from? When you're in a tech chase situation to kill and you get a sour instead of a tipper, it's not the game's fault, it's not Lucina being able to kill easier, it's the players fault for mis spacing in a situation where the opponent is force into extremely specific positions. Also, since in a LOT of situations you'll both have it fresh and with rage, the gap between sour up smash and Luci up smash are basically nothing. Even with rage and freshness the idea that it only kills 10% later is practically nothing in a real match and doesn't effect anything.

But thats the thing. Marth has to tip even after that win condition. So many times I have read an opponent role, and the weird tipper on fsmash doesn't wanna work with me, and i fail to kill. because of slight mispacing. Most characters don't worry about it, usually if they time it right, they'll get the hit they want. Marth has to time it and space it. and he doesn't even get that rewarded much off of those except for fsmash. Top tiers will be able to get a raw hit in neutral at a kill percent, and either hit and then set up to kill. Marth has no confirms except 1st hit nair, and he has to get a read and precise spacing to kill. I think thats what they meant by precise guessing.

This goes back to what I just said, their (both Marth and Lucina) messing up spacing and punishments on fixed positions is nothing except the player's own fault. Tunnel visioning on the idea that you need to kill extremely early as Marth to succeed with him also isn't going to do you any good. I'm also not really sure what you mean by not rewarded that much except fsmash? Ftilt, Bair, Nair, dancing blade. If you're in a position to space a move to kill and know where they'll be, it feels odd to say he can't get the reward off it. Marth has confirms off of Sour up and dair as well. This is ignoring how brain dead easy it actually is to kill off of nair 1. he has confirms off of Rising nair (both hits) into fsmash at mid %s. The list goes on.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Errr, i understand what you are saying.

Yes it is the players fault for misspacing it, but that doesn't counter Marth definitely has to work way harder to get his kills/kill confirms.

And lucina has higher base knockback on all of her moves than marths sour. Edgeguarding situations favor lucina because of her higher base knockback, along with Marths low difference of percent killing earlier.

Sour upair and dair arent nuetral moves. And dair and i feel stop setting up into kills after the small window the do kill.

 

[Flowen231]

Errr, i understand what you are saying.
Yes it is the players fault for misspacing it, but that doesn't counter Marth definitely has to work way harder to get his kills/kill confirms.

Better said that spacing is too much effort for how inconsistent the reward is. Like if you compare Roy to Marth, Roy's sweet spots are giant, it's not hard to get them consistently on almost any character with proper spacing. And while Roy is out here killing people at 60%, Marth is usually getting his kills at 160+ because his tippers feel like worse RNG than hero getting a crit. It's not on every move but on some of key moves the tip is so inconsistent that it can be thrown off by hurtbox sizes and character animations. That's why you saw Leo drop the character again. Even the best player in the world who is known for his great spacing can't make Marth consistent enough.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

Errr, i understand what you are saying.

Yes it is the players fault for misspacing it, but that doesn't counter Marth definitely has to work way harder to get his kills/kill confirms.

And lucina has higher base knockback on all of her moves than marths sour. Edgeguarding situations favor lucina because of her higher base knockback, along with Marths low difference of percent killing earlier.

Sour upair and dair arent nuetral moves. And dair and i feel stop setting up into kills after the small window the do kill.

I don't, we can just agree to disagree on that point. IMO there's nothing difficult with landing his neutral tools that you're constantly using to set up tech chases and significantly more reward off it than Lucina ever would.

Edge guarding only favors Lucina at very obscure mid %s, around 40-60% depending on the char. They're both equally as potent at edge guarding at higher %s and low %s Marth excels BECAUSE of sour spots stringing together. They don't have anything that makes either of them better at edge guarding once you start to actually look at situations in a match. Even if you really wanted to argue Lucina was a better edge guarder overall it's very, very slight at best.

Better said that spacing is too much effort for how inconsistent the reward is. Like if you compare Roy to Marth, Roy's sweet spots are giant, it's not hard to get them consistently on almost any character with proper spacing. And while Roy is out here killing people at 60%, Marth is usually getting his kills at 160+ because his tippers feel like worse RNG than hero getting a crit. It's not on every move but on some of key moves the tip is so inconsistent that it can be thrown off by hurtbox sizes and character animations. That's why you saw Leo drop the character again. Even the best player in the world who is known for his great spacing can't make Marth consistent enough.

Character's living up to absurd %s at high-top level play isn't a Marth problem, it's a Marcina problem. It happens so much in matches with Proto and Etjusi. Mr E as well. Leo when he plays the character occasionally. On the topic of Leo, he's been on and off about Marth since Smash 4, where people argued Lucina was irrelevant because of how Marth was in the game and Jab 1 existing. Leo dropping the character literally means nothing

 

[Flowen231]

Character's living up to absurd %s at high-top level play isn't a Marth problem, it's a Marcina problem. It happens so much in matches with Proto and Etjusi. Mr E as well. Leo when he plays the character occasionally. On the topic of Leo, he's been on and off about Marth since Smash 4, where people argued Lucina was irrelevant because of how Marth was in the game and Jab 1 existing. Leo dropping the character literally means nothing

It happens far less often with Lucina though. Most of Luci's attacks will be able kill middle weights near the ledge at around 150; Not desirable, but whenever people survive past that it's because the Lucina player either doesn't have stage control, or can't create an opening to land the moves. Getting outplayed is very different than hitting the move in advantage and not killing with the move. Also wasn't Mr. E historically bad at cleaning his plate in general? I remember him getting blown up by a belmont player in tournament because he didn't know how to edge guard Richter lol. (Never heard of the other two btw, I only know of Mr.E)

I don't know why you brought up smash 4 since that's really far from the point, but if you remember, Lucina had jab into imagination as well. You are using this example a bit disingenuously though. Lucina wasn't considered irrelevant because she was far worse than Marth, Lucina was considered irrelevant because Marth's tippers were consistent enough to a point where a well practiced player could land them when it mattered. It was a case of 2 characters playing almost identically, and both players were rewarded consistently, but Marth's rewards were way better; Ergo a situation where 2 are good and one is just better. In smash ultimate you have the same dynamic of 2 characters playing almost identically but when all is said and done only one of them is rewarded consistently and the other is more often than not unrewarded; Ergo a situation where one is good and the other one is not worth.

And yes, Leo dropping Marth does mean a lot. Leo loves Marth XD. When he announced it on twitter he said he was sad about it. The best player in the world who is known for his spacing, can't use Marth consistently enough to make him a reliable secondary.

Please note; I'm not saying that you shouldn't play Marth if you want to, who am I to tell you otherwise? But when the chips are down, it's undeniable that Marth has issues when he's so outclassed by his echo that even loyalists (ex loyalist in my case) avoid him for Lucina.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

It happens far less often with Lucina though. Most of Luci's attacks will be able kill middle weights near the ledge at around 150; Not desirable, but whenever people survive past that it's because the Lucina player either doesn't have stage control, or can't create an opening to land the moves. Getting outplayed is very different than hitting the move in advantage and not killing with the move. Also wasn't Mr. E historically bad at cleaning his plate in general? I remember him getting blown up by a belmont player in tournament because he didn't know how to edge guard Richter lol. (Never heard of the other two btw, I only know of Mr.E)

There's no real difference between it happening with Lucina and Marth, the stigma of the character not being able is blown up to a ridiculous degree for Marth specifically because people both don't pay attention to averages that the best Lucina players in the world kill at and there being FAR less Marth examples to go off of at that level. People see a bandwagon thought process of Marth not being able to kill and saying Lucina doesn't and hop aboard. You're right about Mr E, that's why i hesitantly included him with a maybe. Proto and Etjusi are japanese Lucinas and Proto is currently PGR'd 19th in the world and is undeniably the best Lucina at the moment (you could make the argument that he always was the best Lucina even when Leo played her and that Proto would be a top 10 in PGR but due to illness and being in japan wasn't able to go to enough tournaments to make a big enough impact to make top 10 this season)

I don't know why you brought up smash 4 since that's really far from the point

I brought up Smash 4 because you brought up Leo dropping the character. As I said, he's been on and off Marth since late Smash 4 (mid-late 2017 to the end of 2018 where he was playing Lucina more towards the end of the year before Ult came out).

You are using this example a bit disingenuously though. Lucina wasn't considered irrelevant because she was far worse than Marth, Lucina was considered irrelevant because Marth's tippers were consistent enough to a point where a well practiced player could land them when it mattered. It was a case of 2 characters playing almost identically, and both players were rewarded consistently, but Marth's rewards were way better; Ergo a situation where 2 are good and one is just better. In smash ultimate you have the same dynamic of 2 characters playing almost identically but when all is said and done only one of them is rewarded consistently and the other is more often than not unrewarded; Ergo a situation where one is good and the other one is not worth.

Yes, I know all of this. That's why I said it. I didn't mean to imply Lucina couldn't Jab 1, I just thought it was obvious It was the tipper reward off it. To be honest, I didn't really agree with Lucina being "irrelevant" in smash 4 just like how most of what people say about Marth in this game isn't really true or overblown to absurd degrees.

where people argued Lucina was irrelevant because of how Marth was in the game and Jab 1 existing. Leo dropping the character literally means nothing

it's undeniable that Marth has issues when he's so outclassed by his echo

This exactly is just where I disagree. There's nothing to actually show and support that he's outclassed outside of the fact that people just play Lucina. Infact, if you look up various high-top level Marth gameplay from vaious people who have used him, most people's arguements (notably, his tippers being "random") start to fall apart. People that know how to play the character at that level have near perfect sour-tipper ratios.

Marth = Lucina both in Smash 4 and Ultimate. People just look at very specific aspects in a vacuum and roll with it, they did in Smash 4 and they still do now

 

[NinfanNanz]

people who have used him, most people's arguements (notably, his tippers being "random") start to fall apart. People that know how to play the character at that level have near perfect sour-tipper

I'm curious if you could show examples of this. I have been trying to find good marth play by anyone besides mkleo recently and it's hard.

In any case,
I don't think Marth's sours do all that much for him. Marth i feel lacks the agressive nature he used to. You have to play him really defensively, while lucina is a lot more rewarding and more aggressive. Her damage output, and other things i feel are higher. But if you find some good marth play, i have a little research i want to do.


Also yea, hopefully we get the same treatment in an id swap, where tippers out way sours or something.

 

[Flowen231]

What you said

1, Yes there is. Hitting an f tilt at 150% off of a ledge trap will kill most mid weights with Lucina and will not kill with Marth unless you tipper.

2, I was referring to when Leo picked up Marth in this game and dropped him very shortly after late last year.

3, I misunderstood your point there lol. I secondaried both of them as one in smash 4, the gap wasn't really as big then. In this game however, the gap is massive, hence my reference to Leo dropping Marth in this game because he just couldn't work with it. Again, there's a difference between having two good characters and one is consistently better like last game, and having one character that always rewards you and one character that rewards you less than half the time.

4, MKLeo used Marth in this game, had some success, got beat because Marth let him down and dropped the character. Again, excuse my ignorance but I don't know of any top level Marths other than him for his brief run, and I know that when the chips are down only one of the two is worth using in top level play as a result of the other's flaws.

Quick Edits: I don't follow the japanese scene but will check them out. And Just putting this out there, I'm not on any bandwagon. I tried to use Marth myself in this game. He+Lucina was my secondary in smash 4 and I almost always used him when I needed that secondary. I tried to use him in this game. For the first few months I played almost exclusively as Marth, I really wanted him to work because I mained him in Melee and he's been my secondary in Brawl, PM, and 4. In the end, I lost tons of games I should have won because up throw no longer kills and tippers are too RNG. When the swap to Lucina was made it just flat out stopped; I've never lost a game just because a move refused to kill at ludicrous %s in my advantage state.

 

[CaptainAnime]

it's undeniable that Marth has issues when he's so outclassed by his echo that even loyalists (ex loyalist in my case) avoid him for Lucina.

to be fair, that's actually on the devs end for not giving lucina, roy, and chrom differing movesets. i actually find it pretty ridiculous how they're all basically good characters and have more benefits using their style of gameplay than the original

 

[NinfanNanz]

Hey Everyone!

So, I have some preliminary data that I have been researching some key differences between Lucina and Marth. their kill % per stock, total sword damage (excludes throws, throw techs, and reticle damage), and hits per stock.

If you'd like to have a look :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PBVGcLmCzXNJrRtbtdPIb880zwx1xICCijG7HrG_57E/edit#gid=0

to summarize this :

Marth average on hit damage : 9.0129
Marth average kill : 153.79

Lucina Average on hit damage : 11.53
Lucina Average kill : 103.1888

but Mr. E got some crazy early kills with lucina. So i need other sets to balance that out.


Lucina sword damage being 2.0%~ higher is kinda crazy though haha.