The gap between Marth and Lucina

[Qualudes]

I think you and I are just going to disagree when it comes to the philosophy around buffs and nerfs C chipndip and that's ok. The Belmonts, Peach's, and Roy/Chrom should be tweaked to be more unique, but I think there are already subtle differences in their kit or radical differences in the case of Roy and Chrom that make them all worth playing in different matchups. Marth is simply underutilized because the tipper mechanic is extremely underwhelming and needs to be tweaked. Lucina doesn't need to be nerfed, Marth's sour-spots are fine as is, he just needs to get ample reward for good spacing because that is the guiding principle around the character and has been for almost 20 years.
I appreciate the discussion though and like seeing where everyone's head is at.

 

[CaptainAnime]

But isn't he normally better yet still uses Lucina most of the time? If Marth is the better choice when you're better, he should theoretically still be using him the most.

No I am saying that in THAT particular matchup, Marth is better. I never said that it was the reason why he was better than Lucina. Mkleo even explains why: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/403694196 at 4:33:00.

 

[Arthur97]

I think you and I are just going to disagree when it comes to the philosophy around buffs and nerfs C chipndip and that's ok. The Belmonts, Peach's, and Roy/Chrom should be tweaked to be more unique, but I think there are already subtle differences in their kit or radical differences in the case of Roy and Chrom that make them all worth playing in different matchups. Marth is simply underutilized because the tipper mechanic is extremely underwhelming and needs to be tweaked. Lucina doesn't need to be nerfed, Marth's sour-spots are fine as is, he just needs to get ample reward for good spacing because that is the guiding principle around the character and has been for almost 20 years.
I appreciate the discussion though and like seeing where everyone's head is at.

I'd love for Lucina to be made more unique too. Honestly, I'd give up her being better than Marth if it meant semi-clone status.

 

[chipndip]

I think you and I are just going to disagree when it comes to the philosophy around buffs and nerfs C chipndip and that's ok. The Belmonts, Peach's, and Roy/Chrom should be tweaked to be more unique, but I think there are already subtle differences in their kit or radical differences in the case of Roy and Chrom that make them all worth playing in different matchups. Marth is simply underutilized because the tipper mechanic is extremely underwhelming and needs to be tweaked. Lucina doesn't need to be nerfed, Marth's sour-spots are fine as is, he just needs to get ample reward for good spacing because that is the guiding principle around the character and has been for almost 20 years.
I appreciate the discussion though and like seeing where everyone's head is at.

I personally think that Marth's tipper is already rewarding enough as is. It KOs very well and even if he misses, he still gets the hit.

It's Lucina's lack of nuance that just makes her rarely worse for usage than Marth in certain match-ups. Where Marth's currently really healthy for the game, Lucina's a very dumbed down version of Marth as is. If she had something that made her fundamentally different from him in some way, like how Chrom has a totally different recovery from Roy, that'd have definitely helped this whole thing.

All in all, Marth's a solid character and Lucina's the one that's out of line and needs adjusting. Only reason why I'm being hard on Marth is because he's the one that's in second place in people's minds.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm talking about the ditto. We don't really see him play the ditto. Unless MkLeo is playing in pools, Lucina is still optimal.

 

[NinfanNanz]

I think one of the biggest problems I have with Marth and Lucina gap, is that the Marth's tip shield advantage has been almost lost.
Marth's tipped dtilt does exactly 6 with an unstaled tip, but its unlikely that'll actually be unstaled completely, so it's more like 7. But like Marth and lucina barely, barely, have any differences in shield stun on the aerials because of the .85x damage and .33 multiplier on shield stun from aerials.
I think another of Marth's hinderance is the .85x multiplier on short hop aerials, as SH aerials are his biggest tools. they don't do enough hitstun to combo/sourspots knockback too far. Nair misses a lot in my experience and barely shieldstuns.
I think, the biggest biggest problem for marth though, was he lost all of his kill confirms. Jab 1 and dancing blade were his best kill tools in S4, and they got nerfed pretty harshly. u-air is like the only thing I can kill confirm with, and that's a bit hard to land.

 

[Flowen231]

View attachment 205725

I think one of the biggest problems I have with Marth and Lucina gap, is that the Marth's tip shield advantage has been almost lost.
Marth's tipped dtilt does exactly 6 with an unstaled tip, but its unlikely that'll actually be unstaled completely, so it's more like 7. But like Marth and lucina barely, barely, have any differences in shield stun on the aerials because of the .85x damage and .33 multiplier on shield stun from aerials.
I think another of Marth's hinderance is the .85x multiplier on short hop aerials, as SH aerials are his biggest tools. they don't do enough hitstun to combo/sourspots knockback too far. Nair misses a lot in my experience and barely shieldstuns.
I think, the biggest biggest problem for marth though, was he lost all of his kill confirms. Jab 1 and dancing blade were his best kill tools in S4, and they got nerfed pretty harshly. u-air is like the only thing I can kill confirm with, and that's a bit hard to land.

Nailed it lol. Tipper hitbox also feels less consistent, big example was his Bair; That move's tipper hitbox was nigh impossible to miss with half baked spacing or better in S4. Combine that with the faster paced gameplay it just feels like somethings missing. Tippers in general are less rewarding too, not just in terms pf shield stun but kill power as well doesn't seem to be much different than lucina's hits. IIRC marth also loses out on some setups because if it. Off the top of my head I can think of D tilt tech miss. At 85ish lucina can tumble most characters with D tilt and dash in with a sliding forward smash to catch them if they miss the tech (which is hard to react to given the angle), where as marth can't because non tippers don't tumble til the launch is too far and tippers tumble earlier but also send them too far. Someone made a list of those differences (may have been one of the bigger smash guide tubers, its been a couple months lol) and lucina got a few confirms and could take advantage of some situations that marth struggled in due to the inconsistent tip. Biggest confirm that I saw for team marth was the dair into tipper fsmash, which is already a questionable option to throw out since the risk of being anti aired is already a problem.

I think they should just buff marth tbh. Assuming both characters stay the same, Lucina's consistency will always be reason to play her, but imo its dumb for marth to be the way he is now with his sweet spots.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Nailed it lol. Tipper hitbox also feels less consistent, big example was his Bair; That move's tipper hitbox was nigh impossible to miss with half baked spacing or better in S4. Combine that with the faster paced gameplay it just feels like somethings missing. Tippers in general are less rewarding too, not just in terms pf shield stun but kill power as well doesn't seem to be much different than lucina's hits. IIRC marth also loses out on some setups because if it. Off the top of my head I can think of D tilt tech miss. At 85ish lucina can tumble most characters with D tilt and dash in with a sliding forward smash to catch them if they miss the tech (which is hard to react to given the angle), where as marth can't because non tippers don't tumble til the launch is too far and tippers tumble earlier but also send them too far. Someone made a list of those differences (may have been one of the bigger smash guide tubers, its been a couple months lol) and lucina got a few confirms and could take advantage of some situations that marth struggled in due to the inconsistent tip. Biggest confirm that I saw for team marth was the dair into tipper fsmash, which is already a questionable option to throw out since the risk of being anti aired is already a problem.

I think they should just buff marth tbh. Assuming both characters stay the same, Lucina's consistency will always be reason to play her, but imo its dumb for marth to be the way he is now with his sweet spots.

Marth's tips get heavily hurt by the .85x multiplier on short hops in terms of kill power. Marth's tip does 11.5 and lucina does 10.5. The .85x multiplier makes the difference to less than a percent. Making the knockback even closer together than it already was. Not to mention, Lucina got a bunch of damage buffs on her on nair, bair, f-tilt and dair, giving her a lot better kill potential than smash 4.

Honestly, I don't want lucina nerfed at all. I think she is fine, and does well. I just want marth to be like he was before. Killing early was always my favorite thing about marth. It was so fun in melee to get a tipper at like 60 and kill the opponent. Smash Ultimate can bring that back. Thats all they need to do.
And looking at the previous Patch, It's unlikely they will nerf people. Only things that are inherently cheesy like chrom up b kills, or the wind box on k. rool.
heck, even chrom got compensated for the up - b nerf by giving him better autocancel on his down air. They are going for making every character better, not worse. And Marth took a really long time to get right in Smash 4. 1.1.4 was his last great buff patch.
Soooo fingers crossed.

 

[NinfanNanz]

hopefully not bring a dead thread back up,
But I have been seeing a lot of placements of Marth in high tier, and I just don't see it. Like, I feel like the gap between Marth and Lucina is just much bigger than people perceive to be. Marth has trouble killing, and ok ground game, a good air-game, ok grabs, and random early kill potential. His frame data is great, and his damage racking is alright, but I don't think he deserves to be in high tier for that. He lacks a lot of good stuff that other high tier placements have. Btw, I don't believe in the definitive tier list for right now. Just like, its interesting to see top players put Marth so high, when I feel like the other characters around him do better.

 

[Arthur97]

hopefully not bring a dead thread back up,
But I have been seeing a lot of placements of Marth in high tier, and I just don't see it. Like, I feel like the gap between Marth and Lucina is just much bigger than people perceive to be. Marth has trouble killing, and ok ground game, a good air-game, ok grabs, and random early kill potential. His frame data is great, and his damage racking is alright, but I don't think he deserves to be in high tier for that. He lacks a lot of good stuff that other high tier placements have. Btw, I don't believe in the definitive tier list for right now. Just like, its interesting to see top players put Marth so high, when I feel like the other characters around him do better.

First and foremost, there is no definitive tier list unless I missed something.

Second, pros have personal bias and the Smash community seems to have a thing for Marth (and Female Robin, Corrin, Trainer, and WFT). Plus, "potential." How do you think Shulk gets put so high?

Also, isn't Lucina often top, so is putting Marth high really that close?

 

[NinfanNanz]

First and foremost, there is no definitive tier list unless I missed something.

Second, pros have personal bias and the Smash community seems to have a thing for Marth (and Female Robin, Corrin, Trainer, and WFT). Plus, "potential." How do you think Shulk gets put so high?

Also, isn't Lucina often top, so is putting Marth high really that close?

Apologies, I meant that I am reading tier lists as opinions as what they are.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/blu1vy/may_ultimate_tier_list_a_combination_of_19/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...cz7Tza8MqyZU9gZVJIa25T2qo/edit#gid=1193204896


According to this spread sheet and stuff, there is an average of a 20~ character difference. I apologize, I must have seen tier lists that usually put him near roy and chrom, and like Roy and Chrom definitely are better, by at least a margin. Most tier list i have seen give him a 10-15 character difference. I much more inclined to put him around a 25-30 character difference. I just don't see what he has to make him high. All the other "high tiers" have really good stuff.

 

[Arthur97]

Apologies, I meant that I am reading tier lists as opinions as what they are.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/blu1vy/may_ultimate_tier_list_a_combination_of_19/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...cz7Tza8MqyZU9gZVJIa25T2qo/edit#gid=1193204896


According to this spread sheet and stuff, there is an average of a 20~ character difference. I apologize, I must have seen tier lists that usually put him near roy and chrom, and like Roy and Chrom definitely are better, by at least a margin. Most tier list i have seen give him a 10-15 character difference. I much more inclined to put him around a 25-30 character difference. I just don't see what he has to make him high. All the other "high tiers" have really good stuff.

Eh, considering that spreadsheet has Cloud as apparently one of the worst sword fighters, it may be best to take it with a grain of salt anyway.

 

[CaptainAnime]

hopefully not bring a dead thread back up,
But I have been seeing a lot of placements of Marth in high tier, and I just don't see it. Like, I feel like the gap between Marth and Lucina is just much bigger than people perceive to be. Marth has trouble killing, and ok ground game, a good air-game, ok grabs, and random early kill potential. His frame data is great, and his damage racking is alright, but I don't think he deserves to be in high tier for that. He lacks a lot of good stuff that other high tier placements have. Btw, I don't believe in the definitive tier list for right now. Just like, its interesting to see top players put Marth so high, when I feel like the other characters around him do better.

im sorry but i have to disagree. Marth MAY have trouble killing but his ok ground and air game, and ok grabs I'm pretty sure that is exactly Lucina. They're ECHO FIGHTERS. Their height, their speed, their frame data, everything but their attack strat is LITERALLY THE SAME YOU MORON. The ONLY thing that holds Marth back is his non tippers which is something a lot mother****ers like you don't understand. You get TIPPERS not non tippers. Sure, his tippers may be random but 9/10 times, it's because you ****ing suck and you can't ****ing space. GET GOOD *****.

 

[Teeb147]

I'd like to see Marth used as much as Lucina. Whether it's by buffing him a tiny bit or people learning to use his differences to greater potential, I would enjoy seeing them on par and not just one or the other at tournaments

 

[Arthur97]

im sorry but i have to disagree. Marth MAY have trouble killing but his ok ground and air game, and ok grabs I'm pretty sure that is exactly Lucina. They're ECHO FIGHTERS. Their height, their speed, their frame data, everything but their attack strat is LITERALLY THE SAME YOU MORON. The ONLY thing that holds Marth back is his non tippers which is something a lot mother****ers like you don't understand. You get TIPPERS not non tippers. Sure, his tippers may be random but 9/10 times, it's because you ****ing suck and you can't ****ing space. GET GOOD *****.

Alright, you try to land tippers every time you want. If you can get up to 90% what you want against someone of approximately the same skill, then come back (with proof) with this argument.

 

[CaptainAnime]

Alright, you try to land tippers every time you want. If you can get up to 90% what you want against someone of approximately the same skill, then come back (with proof) with this argument.

Whether i can do it or not will not change the fact that everyone is different meaning that some are better at getting tippers than others. You would also have to consider specific matchups as well so keep trying girlfriend. Edit: Also consider timing. There are times when people play at their best and times when we feel wasted so yeah.

 

[Arthur97]

Whether i can do it or not will not change the fact that everyone is different meaning that some are better at getting tippers than others. You would also have to consider specific matchups as well so keep trying girlfriend. Edit: Also consider timing. There are times when people play at their best and times when we feel wasted so yeah.

You seriously need to calm down. Even the best at tippers just aren't as good this time because it's a lot easier to get in close as well as how bad the tipper hitboxes are. And if the fighter has to be played perfectly to be better by an amazing player at the top of their game, can you really call them better? That's theory. In practicality, things don't work that way. Again, give me proof of what you're saying. Give me consistent achievements. Prove he's as good or better instead of just insulting people.

 

[CaptainAnime]

You seriously need to calm down. Even the best at tippers just aren't as good this time because it's a lot easier to get in close as well as how bad the tipper hitboxes are. And if the fighter has to be played perfectly to be better by an amazing player at the top of their game, can you really call them better? That's theory. In practicality, things don't work that way. Again, give me proof of what you're saying. Give me consistent achievements. Prove he's as good or better instead of just insulting people.

Alright this is my last message to you: Think about Melee Jigglypuff. If what you're saying is true, than why is she put as a top tier? Also, I never said Marth was better than Lucina, I think he just needs more representation. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[Arthur97]

I know little to nothing about Melee Jigglypuff, but it doesn't come with a tipper mechanic that works against it more than it helps and another fighter who does what it does without said mechanic. There's also risk vs reward and if the reward is both common and good enough to warrent the risk. General consensus is that it does not for Marth this go around. Especially not when there is a more consistent option that doesn't require frame perfect play constantly (which is just not feasible) which even then doesn't guarantee getting what you want.

And again, you're throwing out theoreticals. Just because one high risk high reward fighter in another game is top tier, doesn't mean the same concept applies here. Marth defendants often end up sounding like people who keep ranking Shulk high based on "potential."

 

[NinfanNanz]

im sorry but i have to disagree. Marth MAY have trouble killing but his ok ground and air game, and ok grabs I'm pretty sure that is exactly Lucina. They're ECHO FIGHTERS. Their height, their speed, their frame data, everything but their attack strat is LITERALLY THE SAME YOU MORON. The ONLY thing that holds Marth back is his non tippers which is something a lot mother****ers like you don't understand. You get TIPPERS not non tippers. Sure, his tippers may be random but 9/10 times, it's because you ****ing suck and you can't ****ing space. GET GOOD *****.

Wow. uhhhh......okay. I Played marth in every game, and judging by you, you also do the same.
So Imma say this,

Landing tippers always is hard. What made marth good in every other game, was not because his tippers were so strong (that was part of the reason) . but he had set-ups into the those tippers. Lets look at smash 4 marth. Marth 4 ways of killing confirming. Jab, Dancing Blade, Grab, and Nair. Maybe up-air, but thats stretching it. Now he has..........Nair. Grab doesn't kill till 200. Jab is effectively useless because tipping it now sucks people in and never lifts opponents off the ground, and Dancing blades hit box is like....a micropixel.

K. So now your arguement. I should land my tips. great I landed a tippered fair, nair, d-tilt in neutral and now what? I got like an extra 3% out of it. Hooray. possible tech situation. Tipped Nair and Fair don't even have that much gain. Marth shouldn't always tip things. Roy has uses for his sourspots, and Marth should do the same.


every game, Marth's tippers have been decently easy to land, or have sourspot uses.

Their knockback and damage is not the same, which makes a huge impact on the ground game and air game. lucina has enough hitstun for a lot of her stuff, and marth just doesn't sometimes.

Alright this is my last message to you: Think about Melee Jigglypuff. If what you're saying is true, than why is she put as a top tier? Also, I never said Marth was better than Lucina, I think he just needs more representation. Thank you and have a nice day.

She's top tier because bair has SO MUCH Disjoint. she gets easy leads into rest. Her edgeguarding game is incredible. her up air juggles incredibly. Her air game is impeccable. I don't understand your point? because she doesn't have to space perfectly to land her stuff.

 

[NinfanNanz]

I'd like to see Marth used as much as Lucina. Whether it's by buffing him a tiny bit or people learning to use his differences to greater potential, I would enjoy seeing them on par and not just one or the other at tournaments

I really like how you saw both in Smash 4. On characters Marth had trouble spacing with, Lucina got you covered. I would be very happy to see Marth and Lucina work in unison again.

 

[CaptainAnime]

Ok lots to deal with here: mainly stupidity from myself and others. Closing argument: Marth needs more representation. In fact more than half the characters have been rarely seen in tournaments to really know what their capabilities are and people wanna make tier lists? It makes me laugh sometimes. Anyway I know Marth's problems but I think I am willing to deal with them because I love this character and the only way that will change is if they actually weaken his tippers to the point where KOs at 40% are no longer possible. I may have upset some people and/or offended some. I'm just expressing my anger of the fact that certain characters are receiving little attention.

 

[Hydde]

Wow. uhhhh......okay. I Played marth in every game, and judging by you, you also do the same.
So Imma say this,

Landing tippers always is hard. What made marth good in every other game, was not because his tippers were so strong (that was part of the reason) . but he had set-ups into the those tippers. Lets look at smash 4 marth. Marth 4 ways of killing confirming. Jab, Dancing Blade, Grab, and Nair. Maybe up-air, but thats stretching it. Now he has..........Nair. Grab doesn't kill till 200. Jab is effectively useless because tipping it now sucks people in and never lifts opponents off the ground, and Dancing blades hit box is like....a micropixel.

K. So now your arguement. I should land my tips. great I landed a tippered fair, nair, d-tilt in neutral and now what? I got like an extra 3% out of it. Hooray. possible tech situation. Tipped Nair and Fair don't even have that much gain. Marth shouldn't always tip things. Roy has uses for his sourspots, and Marth should do the same.


every game, Marth's tippers have been decently easy to land, or have sourspot uses.

Their knockback and damage is not the same, which makes a huge impact on the ground game and air game. lucina has enough hitstun for a lot of her stuff, and marth just doesn't sometimes.



She's top tier because bair has SO MUCH Disjoint. she gets easy leads into rest. Her edgeguarding game is incredible. her up air juggles incredibly. Her air game is impeccable. I don't understand your point? because she doesn't have to space perfectly to land her stuff.

This man sums it up pretty well.

In summary, the "get good" argument is not enough to say marth is better than Luci or Roy.

Unlike melee and smash4, now marth is totally dependant on hitting tippers, and not even the proest of players can land tippers at will whenever they want. Is idiotic to theorize about this and say is possible and all is well.

Marth needs buffs to his game, name it jab setups like smash4, better sourspot game, better dancing blade and better throws (throws into semi-confirmed combos like melee).

Right now all he has is spacing and pray for tippers. This sucks.


He is not bad, but there are other swordies that are way better... in fact, 80% of the swordies have more options than him.

 

[NinfanNanz]

https://youtu.be/2K4jEb5HECE?t=25

These killpower differences.....I never thought they were this close on some of these moves.

 

[Arthur97]

https://youtu.be/2K4jEb5HECE?t=25

These killpower differences.....I never thought they were this close on some of these moves.

Yes, she doesn't always (if ever) take the exact average. Take aerials for example. If they were average, they'd probably be pretty weak. On the other end, you have stuff like forward tilt.

 

[CaptainAnime]

Again for the last time, I've accepted Marth is worse but he still isn't bad. I'm saying what Marth has now, I'm willing to deal with because I just love playing this character. Getting tips (both Marth tippers and actual pro tips) is something I live for. Ironically, I will tell you guys, I actually suck with Lucina. I'm so used to playing characters with rewards that consistency isn't for me. Trust me, I tested this. I'm just trying to find answers as to how I can fully exploit this character because again, I love playing Marth a lot more than Lucina. In fact, isn't that really the point as to why i started this anyway?

 

[Hydde]

Again for the last time, I've accepted Marth is worse but he still isn't bad. I'm saying what Marth has now, I'm willing to deal with because I just love playing this character. Getting tips (both Marth tippers and actual pro tips) is something I live for. Ironically, I will tell you guys, I actually suck with Lucina. I'm so used to playing characters with rewards that consistency isn't for me. Trust me, I tested this. I'm just trying to find answers as to how I can fully exploit this character because again, I love playing Marth a lot more than Lucina. In fact, isn't that really the point as to why i started this anyway?

I also like to use marth more than lucina, because i like the tipper mechanic and im actually good at spacing with him, but is not so funny to have to calculate that much and have less options, when you can just switch character and have an easier time.

Im annoyed at how sakurai butched him tbh.
He is a good character, dont get me wrong, and i main him, but i feel him so unidimensional in comparison with how he was in melee for example (had a wide array of tricks and options).
Now all you have is to depend on the tippers at infinitum, or die.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Again for the last time, I've accepted Marth is worse but he still isn't bad. I'm saying what Marth has now, I'm willing to deal with because I just love playing this character. Getting tips (both Marth tippers and actual pro tips) is something I live for. Ironically, I will tell you guys, I actually suck with Lucina. I'm so used to playing characters with rewards that consistency isn't for me. Trust me, I tested this. I'm just trying to find answers as to how I can fully exploit this character because again, I love playing Marth a lot more than Lucina. In fact, isn't that really the point as to why i started this anyway?

It's not really that. We aren't like, you should just play lucina. I don't think anyone in this thread said that. It's just realizing more and more how much better lucina is. Realizing how big that gap is the point I feel.

Yes, she doesn't always (if ever) take the exact average. Take aerials for example. If they were average, they'd probably be pretty weak. On the other end, you have stuff like forward tilt.

I realize. but on most of those kill moves, like they are very close to marth's. F-smash killing at 70 for lucina is ridiculous. Bair 120? woah. If they already kill that close to Marth on some of these moves, I now clearly see why the gap is so big. Marth kills relatively the same percents as lucina, or much later. His tips...I feel should be stronger? there's not that much difference between the two tbh.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

I realize. but on most of those kill moves, like they are very close to marth's. F-smash killing at 70 for lucina is ridiculous. Bair 120? woah. If they already kill that close to Marth on some of these moves, I now clearly see why the gap is so big. Marth kills relatively the same percents as lucina, or much later. His tips...I feel should be stronger? there's not that much difference between the two tbh.

I feel like his tipper should just be bigger like Roy got with his hilt

 

[NinfanNanz]

I feel like his tipper should just be bigger like Roy got with his hilt

Yes. That would also fix that issue lol.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Yes. That would also fix that issue lol.

Though I don't really have a problem getting tippers when pretty much all I can do with Marth is getting tippers and he isn't even my main

 

[valy64]

People need to stop to think that you need to Tipper all the time firstly. You only need to tipper to kill.
Which tipper moves kill? NAir is easy, dancing blade is easy to tipper after some practice, and his edgeguard obviously. Marcina struggles to kill. Look at Protobanham in EVO. He got his opponment up to 150% countless times.

At this point, Ultimate marth is basically Melee Marth. Struggles to kill without setups or edgeguards, but his Tipper is ridiciously strong and hard to hit. He is more grounded, watch Top Marth melee players to see how to use Ultimate Marth. The gap between Marth and lucina is a very small one.

Marth is the most missunderstood character in the game. They think its a bad smash 4 marth, but in reality its a modern Melee marth.

And this is wonderful.

I love this Marth! You just need to learn how he is meant to be played, and Melee teaches how to use Ultimate Marth.

Edit: i consistently place top 8 in my local tournaments, using mostly Marth (i use falco against projectile charachters, such as palutena or mega man)

 

[CaptainAnime]

People need to stop to think that you need to Tipper all the time firstly. You only need to tipper to kill.
Which tipper moves kill? NAir is easy, dancing blade is easy to tipper after some practice, and his edgeguard obviously. Marcina struggles to kill. Look at Protobanham in EVO. He got his opponment up to 150% countless times.

At this point, Ultimate marth is basically Melee Marth. Struggles to kill without setups or edgeguards, but his Tipper is ridiciously strong and hard to hit. He is more grounded, watch Top Marth melee players to see how to use Ultimate Marth. The gap between Marth and lucina is a very small one.

Marth is the most missunderstood character in the game. They think its a bad smash 4 marth, but in reality its a modern Melee marth.

And this is wonderful.

I love this Marth! You just need to learn how he is meant to be played, and Melee teaches how to use Ultimate Marth.

Edit: i consistently place top 8 in my local tournaments, using mostly Marth (i use falco against projectile charachters, such as palutena or mega man)

You know I've never thought of it that way. You're definitely the 2nd smartest person in this thread. (Sorry but Phatty came first with his technical response.) You're not completely wrong but I just want to know what makes Melee Marth and Ultimate Marth the same, minus the Melee techs like wavedashing and l cancelling

 

[Arthur97]

Still gonna need some proof. That seems to be Marth proponants biggest issue. They have a hard time proving their theories. Until that happens, Lucina will likely continue to bury him.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Still gonna need some proof. That seems to be Marth proponants biggest issue. They have a hard time proving their theories. Until that happens, Lucina will likely continue to bury him.

I can agree with this.

People need to stop to think that you need to Tipper all the time firstly. You only need to tipper to kill.
Which tipper moves kill? NAir is easy, dancing blade is easy to tipper after some practice, and his edgeguard obviously. Marcina struggles to kill. Look at Protobanham in EVO. He got his opponment up to 150% countless times.

At this point, Ultimate marth is basically Melee Marth. Struggles to kill without setups or edgeguards, but his Tipper is ridiciously strong and hard to hit. He is more grounded, watch Top Marth melee players to see how to use Ultimate Marth. The gap between Marth and lucina is a very small one.

Marth is the most missunderstood character in the game. They think its a bad smash 4 marth, but in reality its a modern Melee marth.

And this is wonderful.

I love this Marth! You just need to learn how he is meant to be played, and Melee teaches how to use Ultimate Marth.

Edit: i consistently place top 8 in my local tournaments, using mostly Marth (i use falco against projectile charachters, such as palutena or mega man)

Marth has very few setups for his kills though. That's his biggest issue. Up-air and first hit nair are....just about it. which aren't super practical. Down tilt sets up tech chase, but it becomes hard to use after like 60-65%. Melee Marth has so many setups for killing early, tech chase setups, easy edgeguards. Sure I like this iteration of marth, but he needs a little bit more. Lucina has much better damage racking, consistent killing setups, dancing blade actually killing, and better edgeguards because honestly, Marth's tipper fair and bair arent that much stronger than Lucinas. and 150 is not really a bad percentage. thats pretty reasonable imo.

 

[Phenomiracle]

The big brained effort needed to execute Marth at his best come at simply too high of a cost compared to Lucina, a character who is far, far easier to play and it's quite silly.

That obviously shouldn't be how it works. And given the game's current design, with the two characters being true clones (Identical model/hitbox sizes) the only real way to address this is to make tipper either easier to hit than Smash 4 (Which shouldn't be an outrageous idea, the is simply the adjustment necessary to account for Ultimate being faster than Smash 4) or give better damage or KB buffs to non-tipper hitboxes.

As an enthusiastic Marth player who enjoys having precision rewarded, I would prefer the former.

Until then, I'm sticking with Lucina. Way easier to win, though markedly less fun.

 

[Oz o:]

CaptainAnime

Can't say I've heavily looked into Marth in this game, but it does feel a lot like reverse Smash 4, where people would go as far as to say Lucina was a Mid/Lower Mid character (granted, she got fixed) and automatically give the winning title to Marth. Hell, even Marth wasn't considered that great until MKLeo put him on the map. Maybe we need MKLeo to really show much of how silly Marth can be sometimes, like randomly killing Cloud at 60 with Side B tippers (and yes, he's consistent at it).

 

[Arthur97]

CaptainAnime

Can't say I've heavily looked into Marth in this game, but it does feel a lot like reverse Smash 4, where people would go as far as to say Lucina was a Mid/Lower Mid character (granted, she got fixed) and automatically give the winning title to Marth. Hell, even Marth wasn't considered that great until MKLeo put him on the map. Maybe we need MKLeo to really show much of how silly Marth can be sometimes, like randomly killing Cloud at 60 with Side B tippers (and yes, he's consistent at it).

He's tried Marth. Like, twice now. Both times he's given him up. If he can't save Marth, good luck finding someone who can.

 

[Oz o:]

jaj

He's tried Marth. Like, twice now. Both times he's given him up. If he can't save Marth, good luck finding someone who can.

ajajjaaaj what

 

[Flowen231]

jaj

ajajjaaaj what

MKLeo did use Marth in tournament recently, and ended up dropping him because Marth just wasn't cutting it. TBH I'm surprised they haven't buffed him yet. Lucina I can see not getting buffed because she's used a lot and she does well enough in tournament, but Marth is confusing for me.

In smash 4 they were considered pretty terrible characters at launch, Lucina was bottom tier in lots of the early tier lists and Marth was mid tier because tippers were super strong and somewhat consistent even before they started getting optimized. Then they just kept getting buffed over and over again. The thing that throws me off is that there was a point in smash 4 before they got their final buff that made them top tier where both characters were arguably better than they are now, and they still got that last buff, so why hold off now? Unless they're buffing everyone in clusters like they did with krool and the gang in 6.0