The G&W MU Chart

[xaviersykora]

From my experience, shiek is very beatable with GW. Especially after the patch, sheik struggles against anybody with reliable, early kill options (which GW has a plethora of). Another thing is, GW falls out of a lot of shiek combos (due to his floatyness and weight) , making it hard for her to even get damage on us. GW is also extremely hard to edge guard, which removes that as a kill option for shiek.

 

[Vader614]

Alright guys. After getting myself back into being active in the Smash 4 tournament scene and fought some strong players, I'm going to be planning on updating the MU chart again shortly. Once the MU chart is updated again, the MU chart will no longer be updated until at least at EVO 2016. There's a good number of G&W players (including myself) that are planning on going to EVO 2016 and I want to save the 4th update for after EVO.

-Vader

 

[NouveauRétro]

From my experience, shiek is very beatable with GW. Especially after the patch, sheik struggles against anybody with reliable, early kill options (which GW has a plethora of). Another thing is, GW falls out of a lot of shiek combos (due to his floatyness and weight) , making it hard for her to even get damage on us. GW is also extremely hard to edge guard, which removes that as a kill option for shiek.

We have no answer to Needle camping. It's not as bad as it used to be obviously, but it's still there. With poor approaches and relative slowness catching a runaway Sheik is REALLY hard. It might be even post patch but we'd have to see what happens with Needle campers.

 

[expansioN]

catching a runaway Sheik is REALLY hard. It might be even post patch but we'd have to see what happens with Needle campers.

Camping / Running away is extremely annoying, and people do it all the time (if they know what they´re doing). The only way to beat it is to pressure them to the ledge, once you have them there they will try to get around you and run to the other side, that´s where you have to intercept them. Also it´s important to gain the lead. Usually this works pretty well off of a grab depending on the enemy. Then play it more defensive because if you have 20-30% lead they won´t be able to get ahead of you by camping, forcing them to approach. And approaching G&W usually isn´t a good idea.

The main problem for me are not chars that simply can camp well but chars that the throwcombos don´t work on effectively. One of the reasons why Fox is so hard to come around, you have to get him to about 35-40% before you can think about to combo him properly from a downthrow. Upthrow > upb > fair is not true and I wouldn´t recommend it because it puts you above him, and beeing above Fox... **** that. Downthrow > ftilt is the only reasonable thing at low percent and it doesn´t do all that much. Downthrow > footstool > dair is also ok. Meanwhile Fox just reks your **** and you´ll likely never have much of a lead. Even if you do, Fox doesn´t care.

On a sidenote... Does it happen to you that certain chars drop out between hits of your bair, especially when you land with it? You hit them in the air, land and the landing hit simply doesn´t connect? Most noteable for me are Cloud and ZSS (thin chars) but it happened with other chars too. It sucks because you will get punished for it and it shouldn´t be a thing. It also always looks like what should be a direct hit.
On another sidenote... it´s also possible to hit all hits of bair in the air AND the landing hit after (usually at low percent) and that´s... ok I guess.

 

[diamondpenguin22]

Should Fox really be under -2? You can just spam bucket when he uses the lasers.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Should Fox really be under -2? You can just spam bucket when he uses the lasers.

YES

 

[expansioN]

A good Fox is hell for G&W. The bucket from laser isn´t all that good (still a fast option but that´s it), and Fox doesn´t need the laser at all.

 

[diamondpenguin22]

A good Fox is hell for G&W. The bucket from laser isn´t all that good (still a fast option but that´s it), and Fox doesn´t need the laser at all.

Good point

 

[Vader614]

Fox will always be a -2 for G&W. Fox's neutral is a lot stronger than G&W, he's faster, using Bucket on Fox's Blaster is pointless as expansioN mentioned, we can't do our Down Throw combos on him immediately since he's a fast-faller, his jab beats ours since his comes out faster. The only thing that G&W has the advantage over Fox is that once Fox is off stage, he's easy to edge guard if you act fast to interrupt his recovery. It's a really tough battle for G&W.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo doesn't lose to GnW lol, we finally have proof to end that. It's even at worst, probably slightly in Mewtwo's favor.

And a Character with serious killing problems beating Lucario is very suspect too.

 

[Game7a1]

Mewtwo doesn't lose to GnW lol, we finally have proof to end that. It's even at worst, probably slightly in Mewtwo's favor.

And a Character with serious killing problems beating Lucario is very suspect too.

There is supposed to be a new MU chart soon, so I would wait for that (it would also open up better discussion for anyone coming to this thread).
I have my own opinions of the two MUs, and it differs from the old MU charts posted here.

 

[Sultoon]

Cloud being -1?i would agree on that if edge garding him wasnt so easy

 

[expansioN]

Mewtwo doesn't lose to GnW lol, we finally have proof to end that. It's even at worst, probably slightly in Mewtwo's favor.

You say you have proof, why don´t you post it?

I kinda agree though. These matchups work out on paper, but not quite so in practice. The main argument is the bucket, once filled you are one grab away from beeing 0-death. This doesn´t always work out that easy though.

Step one is getting the bucket filled. Now unless your enemy has no clue, they will be very careful not to do that. For example, Marios fireballs are pretty easy to bucket because they are slow and easy to react to. (The solution, don´t use fireballs) Projectile that can be charged though (Samus, Lucario, M2) are not only fast but also deceptive. Under a certain distance it´s impossible to bucket on reaction, and they will not risk shooting a long distance.
This forces you to try and read what they´ll do, they can use this to bait you. They also have a good amount of quick options out of charging. A wrong read will always get you punished because the bucket is laggy as hell, even a correct read will get you punished if you don´t get a full bucket because it´s still laggy as hell. (This is worth though)
Additionally, they can just not use it, or use it very rarely/only out of confirms. Overall I find it pretty hard to actually get a bucket.

Step two is deleting your enemies stock with the bucket. 0-death ez gg BUT WAIT: You have this insta-kill bucket of destruction, but your enemy is already at 70%+ (and 2 stocks). Do you REALLY want to use the bucket now? No, no you don´t. Optimally you finish this stock with an upsmash or similar, then 0-death with the bucket. But your enemy, now that the threat of you filling the bucket is gone, will camp like crazy to avoid the grab AND they now have an additional tool to work with because the bucket is full anyway. Of course you can always try to get a read with the bucket but the chance of wasting it... I´ve had buckets powershielded, it´s painful. A shieldbreak usually is also not worth it.

Last but not least, if you are at kill%, bucketing anything that doesn´t fill your bucket will likely result in death. I´ve had people try to bait it out when I was on one stock at kill%.

Now M2 can easily kill you with upthrow at above 100% (or backthrow or fair, or upsmash)
Samus can kill with nair or bair (charge shot also can kill pretty early out of some nasty confirms)
Lucario... this guy. It´s absurd how early he can kill, he got the bucket as passive on all his attacks. I think he still is probably the most manageable of the 3 though.

The bucket is overrated imo, because of the ridiculous power. Especially non G&W Players seem to think the bucket is some kind of magical free win button. Omg I can´t carelessly spam my **** projectiles because of the bucket, it´s so broken the MU is so bad buhuuu. Bull****! No doubt, the buckets presence is a major inconvenience, it´s nothing to take lightly, but also it´s nothing you couldn´t adapt to. How about you use the other like... 20 options that I cannot bucket? This is only this specific MU for you where it´s risky to use, while bucket is completely useless against 60-70% (or so) of the cast, not to mention the doubtful usefulness of judge. Game&Watch kinda reduces your option against him if he can... because he doesn´t have the options himself and he´s a jealous asshole.

TL;DR: I´d place M2, Lucario and Samus at an even matchup.

Cloud being -1?i would agree on that if edge guarding him wasn't so easy

His range, speed and killpower would easily put him at -2 if it weren´t for his lacking recovery. I think -1 is a good spot.

 

[Sultoon]

His range, speed and killpower would easily put him at -2 if it weren´t for his lacking recovery. I think -1 is a good spot.

i am aware of that but upsmash and crouch/dtilt can deal with his aerial approachs and his ground approachs are punishable and we can bucket his projectile altho he is really scary when having the limit especially because his limit specials have kill us earlier but doing damge isnt easy for him once you take out the aerial approachs and a well timed dash attack against upb when trying to recover from below will kill him (it even works against limit upb atleast in battle field)

 

[Y2Kay]

You say you have proof, why don´t you post it?

I kinda agree though. These matchups work out on paper, but not quite so in practice. The main argument is the bucket, once filled you are one grab away from beeing 0-death. This doesn´t always work out that easy though.

Step one is getting the bucket filled. Now unless your enemy has no clue, they will be very careful not to do that. For example, Marios fireballs are pretty easy to bucket because they are slow and easy to react to. (The solution, don´t use fireballs) Projectile that can be charged though (Samus, Lucario, M2) are not only fast but also deceptive. Under a certain distance it´s impossible to bucket on reaction, and they will not risk shooting a long distance.
This forces you to try and read what they´ll do, they can use this to bait you. They also have a good amount of quick options out of charging. A wrong read will always get you punished because the bucket is laggy as hell, even a correct read will get you punished if you don´t get a full bucket because it´s still laggy as hell. (This is worth though)
Additionally, they can just not use it, or use it very rarely/only out of confirms. Overall I find it pretty hard to actually get a bucket.

Step two is deleting your enemies stock with the bucket. 0-death ez gg BUT WAIT: You have this insta-kill bucket of destruction, but your enemy is already at 70%+ (and 2 stocks). Do you REALLY want to use the bucket now? No, no you don´t. Optimally you finish this stock with an upsmash or similar, then 0-death with the bucket. But your enemy, now that the threat of you filling the bucket is gone, will camp like crazy to avoid the grab AND they now have an additional tool to work with because the bucket is full anyway. Of course you can always try to get a read with the bucket but the chance of wasting it... I´ve had buckets powershielded, it´s painful. A shieldbreak usually is also not worth it.

Last but not least, if you are at kill%, bucketing anything that doesn´t fill your bucket will likely result in death. I´ve had people try to bait it out when I was on one stock at kill%.

Now M2 can easily kill you with upthrow at above 100% (or backthrow or fair, or upsmash)
Samus can kill with nair or bair (charge shot also can kill pretty early out of some nasty confirms)
Lucario... this guy. It´s absurd how early he can kill, he got the bucket as passive on all his attacks. I think he still is probably the most manageable of the 3 though.

The bucket is overrated imo, because of the ridiculous power. Especially non G&W Players seem to think the bucket is some kind of magical free win button. Omg I can´t carelessly spam my **** projectiles because of the bucket, it´s so broken the MU is so bad buhuuu. Bull****! No doubt, the buckets presence is a major inconvenience, it´s nothing to take lightly, but also it´s nothing you couldn´t adapt to. How about you use the other like... 20 options that I cannot bucket? This is only this specific MU for you where it´s risky to use, while bucket is completely useless against 60-70% (or so) of the cast, not to mention the doubtful usefulness of judge. Game&Watch kinda reduces your option against him if he can... because he doesn´t have the options himself and he´s a jealous *******.

TL;DR: I´d place M2, Lucario and Samus at an even matchup.



His range, speed and killpower would easily put him at -2 if it weren´t for his lacking recovery. I think -1 is a good spot.

By proof I mean it's finally been done in practice

 

[Youbacon42]

So you'd like to tell me that because of this one set in which the best Mewtwo player won against the not-best, but best G&W in Japan, you call that G&W doesn't win this MU anymore? This one set, whereas other notable Mewtwo mains, like mewSquared still lose against G&W players? Yeah okay.

Look at what Songn got hit with, specially in game 1. It's kinda obvious that he didn't know how to punish a few approaches of Abadango. He tried to shield grab a retreating nair, and dash atttack at like 100, for which he died. Just to name a few examples. Regarding that Abadango is a full-time Mewtwo main since the meta knight nerf, I doubt that Songn got to face a lot of good Mewtwo mains at all.

Good that such a set with such a game 1 is definite proof that a MU isn't in out favor anymore. Next time I'll note that Litle Mac wins against Sheik because someone KO punched ZeRo once.

 

[Vader614]

Hey my awesome G&W homies. It's time to reveal the newly, updated G&W MU chart!

Side Notes:

1.) This MU chart has been briefly discussed with the G&W Skype group as well as hearing shout outs from some professional players I contacted on FaceBook.

2.) Some of the MUs that have been changed due to now experience fighting them lately during tournaments/friendlies. If you have any confusion, feel free to ask away.

3.) As I stated before, this is the last time I'll be updating the MU chart till at least EVO 2016 for more further results and evidence.

 

[NouveauRétro]

About Mewtwo...
I used to call it evenish since his tilts are pretty difficult to outspace, but now I agree to the +1 after playing the MU a lot.
Songn played it wrong. G&W wins this matchup by being frustratingly passive. M2 has trouble approaching G&W on account of smart ducking, up smash and good foxtrot mobility. G&W CAN space Mewtwo, he just can't go in, so he has to dance right outside of M2's range waiting for his chance. Neither can afford aggression so the neutral is pretty even when played slowly, but G&W can gimp Mewtwo and kills with toot toot before Mewtwo's uthrow, as well as the fact that G&W can put 30%+ on every touch since he's so big.

Oh, and Bucket; I don't think anyone said it was such a huge part of the matchup... It basically seals Shadow Ball, or at least charged Shadow Ball, since a good G&W will catch it 80-90% of the time and that's a stock. Theoretically you can throw uncharged ones to mess with spacing but it probably isn't optimal. Sealinfg Shadow Ball is important, but what happens afterwards is more important.
It's not a huge +1 since Mewtwo can still murder G&W if he forgets that he can't approach whenever he wants, but it's a +1 nonetheless.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Hey my awesome G&W homies. It's time to reveal the newly, updated G&W MU chart!

View attachment 106462

Side Notes:

1.) This MU chart has been briefly discussed with the G&W Skype group as well as hearing shout outs from some professional players I contacted on FaceBook.

2.) Some of the MUs that have been changed due to now experience fighting them lately during tournaments/friendlies. If you have any confusion, feel free to ask away.

3.) As I stated before, this is the last time I'll be updating the MU chart till at least EVO 2016 for more further results and evidence.

What do you think about the Mii Gunner matchup? Me and @Squeaky (alias Squeaky) agreed that the matchup is around +1 to even in favor of Game and Watch. While Game and Watch can bucket Mii Gunner's projectiles, Mii Gunner can juggle and zone out Game and Watch pretty well. It is also pretty hard for Game and Watch to get a strong bucket because Gunner can use fair to zone out Game and Watch.

 

[SeanS]

This thread is such a ****fest of thought error that I don't even want to bother.

Let me just clear up the most egregious of errors, which that Robin isn't an extremely favorable MU. This character is seriously bad and overrated (easily a bottom character at the theoretical level), and G&W utterly destroys her with proper dash attacking and jab pressure. Plus, any whiffed arcfire is a filled bucket that isn't terrible on the kill power (LOL) and makes for rock solid option selects on and off the stage.

 

[SeanS]

What do you think about the Mii Gunner matchup? Me and @Squeaky (alias Squeaky) agreed that the matchup is around +1 to even in favor of Game and Watch. While Game and Watch can bucket Mii Gunner's projectiles, Mii Gunner can juggle and zone out Game and Watch pretty well. It is also pretty hard for Game and Watch to get a strong bucket because Gunner can use fair to zone out Game and Watch.

Extremely limited MU experience, but while your argument about fair is likely incorrect, the number is.

I can see her being abused very heavily by proper edgeguarding, lacking a way to wall out jab to grabs in cqc, being a great weight for throw combos, and being dash attack fodder generally. And special usage is gated by bucket.

Also, wondering if your fair can get clanked by the disjoint on fair or bair with a weak hit followup. I don't think this is a reliable approach for G&W since the fair shoots her back, but it'd be interesting to see attempted.

Spot dodge down smash is probably your best option in this matchup. Great move on an otherwise mediocre character. And actually, don't count out the fsmash either, especially from pivot in this mu. Fantastic linger and landing coverage if G&W doesn't immediately approach from the air. I think it may stop dash attacks as well by clanking the hitbox and then forcing G&W to be stuck there, but I haven't seen this MU like ever haha, maybe it doesn't linger after the clank?

edit: Just tested fsmash vs dash attack out of curiosity. This is actually even more in your favor than I expected because fsmash has transcendent priority and ignores the hitbox on G&W's dash attack completely. Very good for you in this matchup, don't be afraid to throw it out every now and then. Rest of what I said probably holds true though

And fair does as well, so while this doesn't change much about the MU comparatively, can't clank it.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Extremely limited MU experience, but while your argument about fair is likely incorrect, the number is.

I can see her being abused very heavily by proper edgeguarding, lacking a way to wall out jab to grabs in cqc, being a great weight for throw combos, and being dash attack fodder generally. And special usage is gated by bucket.

Also, wondering if your fair can get clanked by the disjoint on fair or bair with a weak hit followup. I don't think this is a reliable approach for G&W since the fair shoots her back, but it'd be interesting to see attempted.

Spot dodge down smash is probably your best option in this matchup. Great move on an otherwise mediocre character. And actually, don't count out the fsmash either, especially from pivot in this mu. Fantastic linger and landing coverage if G&W doesn't immediately approach from the air. I think it may stop dash attacks as well by clanking the hitbox and then forcing G&W to be stuck there, but I haven't seen this MU like ever haha, maybe it doesn't linger after the clank?

edit: Just tested fsmash vs dash attack out of curiosity. This is actually even more in your favor than I expected because fsmash has transcendent priority and ignores the hitbox on G&W's dash attack completely. Very good for you in this matchup, don't be afraid to throw it out every now and then. Rest of what I said probably holds true though

And fair does as well, so while this doesn't change much about the MU comparatively, can't clank it.

Gunner can mix up his/her recovery by Gundashing back to the stage. In addition, Gunner can use reflector to break the jab to grab combo since it has a frame 3 hitbox. Gunner's low fall speed and small hurtbox actually makes it harder to combo Gunner relative to the rest of the cast. Gunner's somewhat heavy weight also helps Gunner since Game and Watch's throws are weight-dependent. Also special usage isn't necessarily gated by bucket because Gunner can still use specials to whiff punish or punish a missed tech. They are also good at covering ledge options. In addition, Flame pillar can cover the ledge for over 40 frames. I am speaking from personal experience when I say that a smart Gunner player will find a way to get some usage out of his/her projectiles. In practice, Game and Watch can't bucket everything.

While our dsmash is good, it isn't our best move since it doesn't always connect properly, and it can be teched. Our fair and up tilt are better moves in most cases. Also, it wouldn't be a great idea for Gunner to use down smash to clank with many moves since the second hitbox doesn't really cover in front of Gunner if the first hitbox doesn't beat out an opponent's hitbox.

Gunner's fair is a transcendent priority projectile so it doesn't clank with Game and Watch's hitboxes. While you can still bucket fair, it results in a weaker bucket for Game and Watch since it only does 6% damage at close range and 4% in long range.

 

[SeanS]

Low fall speed very strongly benefits G&W's combos; he is significantly better at comboing floaties than fastfallers. Hurtbox size does not really affect any of G&W's combos as far as I am aware and I invite you to show me examples of that.

When I say "gated by bucket", I mean that you are going to find yourself considering your options very carefully against a good player. It is unreasonable to throw out bucket all the time, especially since it is a frankly sacrificial move in this game a lot of the time.


I'm aware of the backwards forward air if that's what you mean in your discussion of recovery mixup, but the eventual up B is very liable to be key spiked and bair stage spiked. And if fair is used to recover after receiving a lot of vertical knockback, it may be anticipated and faired.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I didn't know that Game and Watch had an easier time getting combos on floaty characters (usually fastfallers get comboed harder by most of the cast). I don't have any examples of hurtbox size affecting combos, but I know that it helps Gunner have an easier time avoiding the windbox for up air. I know that Game and Watch can definitely get some good combos on Gunner, but Gunner's weight helps him/her to survive a pretty long time if the Game and Watch player isn't hitting the Gunner player with the bucket.

I was talking about using reverse fair back to the stage as a mixup. Although you are right about Gunner's recovery, Gunner can still stall with reflector in order to avoid getting spiked too often.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Gunner can mix up his/her recovery by Gundashing back to the stage. In addition, Gunner can use reflector to break the jab to grab combo since it has a frame 3 hitbox. Gunner's low fall speed and small hurtbox actually makes it harder to combo Gunner relative to the rest of the cast. Gunner's somewhat heavy weight also helps Gunner since Game and Watch's throws are weight-dependent. Also special usage isn't necessarily gated by bucket because Gunner can still use specials to whiff punish or punish a missed tech. They are also good at covering ledge options. In addition, Flame pillar can cover the ledge for over 40 frames. I am speaking from personal experience when I say that a smart Gunner player will find a way to get some usage out of his/her projectiles. In practice, Game and Watch can't bucket everything.

While our dsmash is good, it isn't our best move since it doesn't always connect properly, and it can be teched. Our fair and up tilt are better moves in most cases. Also, it wouldn't be a great idea for Gunner to use down smash to clank with many moves since the second hitbox doesn't really cover in front of Gunner if the first hitbox doesn't beat out an opponent's hitbox.

Gunner's fair is a transcendent priority projectile so it doesn't clank with Game and Watch's hitboxes. While you can still bucket fair, it results in a weaker bucket for Game and Watch since it only does 6% damage at close range and 4% in long range.

Bucketing a 6% move 3 times is still 1 grab=stock lol, don't underestimate how BS Bucket is.
I won't say anything about Reflector breaking jabgrab because I don't know when that works
Being heavy doesn't affect G&W dthrow combos too much, but also being really floaty makes it hard. Utilt and uair(toot toot) will be inconsistent but it won't change mid-percent combos too much.
And shooting projectiles at G&W on the ledge is probably a bad idea since G&W has enough range on Bucket to do it directly from ledge and catch anything in threatening range. I won a set against a Lucario a couple weeks ago when he tried to catch my fingers with Aura Sphere...

 

[Djmarcus44]

Bucketing a 6% move 3 times is still 1 grab=stock lol, don't underestimate how BS Bucket is.
I won't say anything about Reflector breaking jabgrab because I don't know when that works
Being heavy doesn't affect G&W dthrow combos too much, but also being really floaty makes it hard. Utilt and uair(toot toot) will be inconsistent but it won't change mid-percent combos too much.
And shooting projectiles at G&W on the ledge is probably a bad idea since G&W has enough range on Bucket to do it directly from ledge and catch anything in threatening range. I won a set against a Lucario a couple weeks ago when he tried to catch my fingers with Aura Sphere...

I know that Game and Watch will have a strong bucket even if it is filled with fairs, but it won't be able to kill Gunner at ridiculously low percents if it is filled with fairs (Gunner will be able to rack up a good amount of damage by zoning out a Game and Watch with a full bucket that isn't as deadly. Game and Watch with a full bucket has to win the neutral more than once in order to take Gunner's stock from 0% if the bucket isn't filled with strong projectiles). It also takes much longer for Game and Watch to get a full bucket when Gunner is using fair. Also, I am referring to Gunner shooting flame pillar at the ledge to prevent an opponent from grabbing the ledge (In this situation, Game and Watch will not be able to bucket the flame pillar since they are recovering to the ledge with their up b).

 

[randomtechguy142857]

I admit I don't have much MU experience, but the G&W-Zelda matchup on paper and from what experience I do have feels like a +2.

Zelda has no way of approaching G&W at all — crouch beats out almost everything, Din's Fire is very easily reactable/bucketable, and phantom slash can be really easily punished. Her finger-bang (dthrow to uair) can be DI'd and other than this she has really no kill confirms, Nauru's Love is outspaced by essentially every aerial G&W has, you get the idea.

 

[NouveauRétro]

I admit I don't have much MU experience, but the G&W-Zelda matchup on paper and from what experience I do have feels like a +2.

Zelda has no way of approaching G&W at all — crouch beats out almost everything, Din's Fire is very easily reachable/bucketable, and phantom slash can be really easily punished. Her finger-bang (dthrow to uair) can be DI'd and other than this she has really no kill confirms, Nauru's Love is outspaced by essentially every aerial G&W has, you get the idea.

Not that it isn't a +2; most believe it is, but if you DI "fingerbang" away she gets Lightning Kick sweetspot confirms. Just wanted to clear up that it's a 50/50 until it stops working.

 

[Vader614]

Surprise guys! The G&W MU chart has been updated sooner than expected, right? Well that's because Patch 1.1.6 just recently came out and while I technically could just only touch Bayonetta, I decide to go back into some past tournament matches and feedback on some players and decided to give the MU chart a new update! In addition, the MU chart has been updated to now have a new slot for -3, which this slot is only exclusive for Sonic for a lot of good reasons and experiences of tournament matches of not just mine but pretty much every other G&W player. This means that:

+2=Huge Advantage
+1=Advantage
0=Even
-1=Slight Disadvantage
-2=Disadvantage
-3=Huge Disadvantage

Quick Notes:

Bayonetta: With the addition of -3 in our MU chart, obviously there would be debate whether Bayonetta would rise to -2, -1 or even become even MU. However, despite the nerfs that Bayonetta has received in this patch, her Neutral game is still really strong and makes it hard for us to approach her without risking ourselves getting smacked around or being Witch Timed.

Greninja: My attention has also been fixed on Greninja lately. My tournament matches against Scizor's Greninja as well as Aggronize's Greninja has proved to be a tough MU for G&W since he, like Fox and Diddy Kong, is a fast-faller and fast. The earlier patch of 1.1.5 also buffed Greninja and made the ninja frog even more trickier to fight against and Greninja has numerous ways to get easy damage % while having creative ways to take stocks if we're not aware/careful of.

R.O.B.: This character was once -1 in the MU chart. But after fighting WiiGi's R.O.B for some time, he told me that the MU isn't actually that difficult for G&W. The answer to R.O.B. is power shielding. Gryo and Laser can also be used against him if we play smart. Plus R.O.B., once you get in, is very easy combo food once we get our hands on the droid. In addition, when R.O.B. is off stage, as long as we continue bullying him off stage, R.O.B. easily lose all his fuel and SD for us. However this is just honestly my opinion as well as the ideal of what WiiGi has told me.

-Vader

 

[NouveauRétro]

Quick Notes:

Bayonetta: With the addition of -3 in our MU chart, obviously there would be debate whether Bayonetta would rise to -2, -1 or even become even MU. However, despite the nerfs that Bayonetta has received in this patch, her Neutral game is still really strong and makes it hard for us to approach her without risking ourselves getting smacked around or being Witch Timed.

Greninja: My attention has also been fixed on Greninja lately. My tournament matches against Scizor's Greninja as well as Aggronize's Greninja has proved to be a tough MU for G&W since he, like Fox and Diddy Kong, is a fast-faller and fast. The earlier patch of 1.1.5 also buffed Greninja and made the ninja frog even more trickier to fight against and Greninja has numerous ways to get easy damage % while having creative ways to take stocks if we're not aware/careful of.

-Vader

I still put Bayonetta in even myself since while we have trouble approaching her, she can't approach us just as much, plus we get similar amounts of reward off catching each other post-patch. Her neutral game has become even more fraudulent since Divekick leads to almost nothing.

I can easily see Greninja in -1. -2 though? Greninja is VERY hard to kill, and he generally will kill G&W first when trading blows, hence the -1. The fast faller/fast combo is more akin to Little Mac than Fox and Diddy though, and while he has a solid neutral I think it's not THAT hard for a patient G&W to find the chink in the armor, especially since Greninja's grab isn't good like Fox or Diddy's. A lot of his kill setups can be avoided with Fire, although it is difficult to land afterwards given his great antiair usmash. Offstage, Greninja looks like a hard character to gimp but dtilt can screw the majority of his angles to ledge over, making it a bit easier. Greninja doesn't have too many safe attacks either, G&W should also be hard to kill for the frog.
It's definitely a bad matchup but I can't see it being near the level of Diddy and Fox.

I'm gonna need some specifics on how exactly your matches with those Greninjas went to understand a -2 placing.

 

[Y2Kay]

The fast faller/fast combo is more akin to Little Mac than Fox and Diddy though, and while he has a solid neutral I think it's not THAT hard for a patient G&W to find the chink in the armor, especially since Greninja's grab isn't good like Fox or Diddy's.

nitpick time!

 

[expansioN]

This list is very solid, there is nothing I´d really disagree with. Fox could be a pick for -3 but thank god his recovery holds him down a little. Sanic is just painful...

I think Ryu might scratch on the -2, he can shoryuken out of a lot of things like downthrow or after jab1 (I even got shoryukened between hits of my bair) and Focus punch also stops downthrow > utilt combos, aswell as giving him a landing option against upsmash (muh diving helmet )

G&W has some solid options and can even challenge his shoryuken (for recovery) with dair or a very well spaced bair and the multihits are good against focus punch.

But in reality a few hits are enough to get G&W in killpercent, and then it just takes a little miscalculation, a little misspacing and the stock is gone. Killing Ryu isn´t all that easy so he will just sit there gathering rage. The margin for error is just really really small.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Killing Ryu isn´t all that easy so he will just sit there gathering rage.

Agreed with everything you said except for that, and maybe that he's in -2, I don't feel it. He's somewhat gimpable. Shoryu trades with dair and Tatsu has a lot of lag and a meh hitbox and can be punished on reaction a lot of the time.

But yeah Ryu onstage is scary as hell. Have to play the matchup a lot different that other characters since you have to be wary of Shoryu. Possibly -2, both characters have to adapt to each other more before we an say for sure, G&W certainly has potential tools to deal with Ryu.

 

[Vader614]

Unless there's more balance patches in the future for Smash 4 or just miscalculation, this is the FINAL version of the G&W MU Chart! Enjoy and hope you guys find this MU chart useful in general.

+2=Advantage
+1=Slight Advantage
0=Even
-1=Slight Disadvantage
-2=Disadvantage
-3=Strong Disadvantage

-Vader

 

[steuben]

wolfenstein references? +1

 

[Djmarcus44]

Unless there's more balance patches in the future for Smash 4 or just miscalculation, this is the FINAL version of the G&W MU Chart! Enjoy and hope you guys find this MU chart useful in general.

+2=Advantage
+1=Slight Advantage
0=Even
-1=Slight Disadvantage
-2=Disadvantage
-3=Strong Disadvantage

View attachment 108271

-Vader

Can you please explain why you have the Mii Gunner matchup as a +2 in favor of Game and Watch? All of the Game and Watch players I've talked to think that it is no better than a +1 for Game and Watch.

 

[steuben]

gunner excels in walling people out. every tool she has to do this can give g&w a one hit KO. so then g&w gets inside and racks up crazy damage since a mii's weight and atrocious frame data makes them pure combo food with no good keep away option except maybe echo reflector

 

[Djmarcus44]

gunner excels in walling people out. every tool she has to do this can give g&w a one hit KO. so then g&w gets inside and racks up crazy damage since a mii's weight and atrocious frame data makes them pure combo food with no good keep away option except maybe echo reflector

Fair doesn't really give Game and Watch a one hit KO since it is a weak projectile. Gunner can additionally use pivot ftilt or pivot fsmash to keep Game and Watch away. It also can take a long time for Game and Watch to get a full bucket if a Gunner player is careful with his/her projectiles (against a Game and Watch at my skill level, I am usually able to take a stock before Game and Watch gets the first bucket). It is also not very easy for Game and Watch to approach Gunner since most of his approach options can be walled out by Gunner's fair (Game and Watch could bucket fair, but Gunner can punish it pretty easily since bucket has a lot of endlag). While Game and Watch with a full bucket can kill very early, Gunner can also wall out Game and Watch even harder with projectiles in this situation. Gunner can also use charge blast in order to get Game to approach.

Gunner's frame data may not be that good, but it is definitely not atrocious. Besides a frame 3 reflector that can break combos, Gunner also has a frame 5 jab and a frame 5 up tilt that can also break some strings. Gunner also has a good variety landing options in order to get out of Game and Watch's juggling (gundashing, reflector stalling, flame pillar, and lunar cancelling. Using Lunar Launch can also help Gunner land since it shoots a projectile from below, and Gunner has good aerial mobility in the helpless state of Lunar Launch).

Gunner can juggle Game and Watch pretty well by using large disjoints such as up tilt and up air, and dash attack. In addition, Gunner can also use Gundashing in order to boost his/her mobility to cover an opponent's landing. Flame pillar is a good tool for edgeguarding Game and Watch since it covers the ledge for over 40 frames (a combination of flame pillar and up smash covers every ledge option. Charge blast and fsmash also cover every ledge option when timed properly). Game and Watch also dies pretty early in this matchup due to his light weight, and Gunner's decently quick killing options (frame 5 up tilt, frame 8 dtilt, frame 9 down smash, and frame 11 up smash) and Gunner's strong mixups (These follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread).

 

[Vader614]

Hey guys, it's been a while since the last update to our G&W MU chart, but now I believe it's time for another update. I got some mixed feelings with a few characters that I want to discuss about, but first before I start to update the MU chart again, I want to make a G&W meeting to discuss the MU chart this time instead of just relying on my experience against the MUs and some of our opinions to update the chart.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Hey guys, it's been a while since the last update to our G&W MU chart, but now I believe it's time for another update. I got some mixed feelings with a few characters that I want to discuss about, but first before I start to update the MU chart again, I want to make a G&W meeting to discuss the MU chart this time instead of just relying on my experience against the MUs and some of our opinions to update the chart.

Yeah I wanna discuss that Pit placement.