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The G&W MU Chart

Vader614

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Through some discussions within the G&W Skype group, I've decided to officially make our character's very own MU chart. This chart will provide:

+2=Easily favors for G&W

+1=Favors for G&W.

0=A 50/50 chance where G&W can win or lose to

-1=Harder characters for G&W to win against, but it can still be possible.

-2=Almost to never winnable against these characters.



-Vader
 

NotAsian

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Not sure how I feel against Lucas everything else is really good though! Died to back throw at 75 and up throw kills us at 110 what do you guys think
 

Vader614

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Not sure how I feel against Lucas everything else is really good though! Died to back throw at 75 and up throw kills us at 110 what do you guys think
****z. I forgot about Lucas and SeanS even told me to fix Lucas to +1 with Ness. I'll fix the MU chart in a bit. Thanks for reminding and correcting me!
 

Vader614

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Yo Vader,I was just wondering, what's up with the DDD matchup?
The DDD MU favors greatly in our favor. While King Dedede hits decently hard and has Gordo, the fact that G&W can easily combo food him, a simple poke with Jab or even Chef can reflect Gordo back at DDD, easy to space him with Bair, and our Up Smash invincibility that protects us from DDD if he tries to attack us from above gives us a huge advantage. The only thing we have to watch out for is DDD's reach with his hammer, but we just power shield em'.
 

JustKindaBoredUKno

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I think a lot of G&Ws view the Fox MU too extremely. The neutral is totally dominated by Fox, but his recovery is one of the easiest to gimp. If you have an entire zone you control, I don't think the matchup should be considered unwinnable. IMHO +1.

I also think Shiek is only +1, fair is punishable with perfect shield or usmash, and since Shiek has a relatively hard time killing compared to most other top tiers, we get to RAGE out a little more, which is always scary.

Ryu is definitely -2, as are both Corrin and Bayonetta. Corrin by design (G&W's #1 weakness has always been powerful range) and because Bayo's Witch Time can KO G&W as low as 60%
 

The Banzai

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On a side note,when analysing the Bayo matchup,remember that our Up-B restringes some of her combos out of the top
 
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Greetings!
I actually think ZSS is a 0 or +1. ZSS's main tool in neutral is nair. If Game and Watch ducks, ZSS either whiffs the nair or has to input it super late, which can be powershielded and punished or up smashed in a fair amount of cases, even with good spacing. Edgeguarding hard versus her can also lead to easy stocks. Not to mention the handy fact that dash attack clanks with her grab and her forward smash. The final thing is that if ZSS dares go for the notorious down throw double up air up B, an up B from Game and Watch can KO off the top at pretty low percents.

Thoughts?
 

Vader614

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Greetings!
I actually think ZSS is a 0 or +1. ZSS's main tool in neutral is nair. If Game and Watch ducks, ZSS either whiffs the nair or has to input it super late, which can be powershielded and punished or up smashed in a fair amount of cases, even with good spacing. Edgeguarding hard versus her can also lead to easy stocks. Not to mention the handy fact that dash attack clanks with her grab and her forward smash. The final thing is that if ZSS dares go for the notorious down throw double up air up B, an up B from Game and Watch can KO off the top at pretty low percents.

Thoughts?
I might consider changing it in our favor in a couple of months like after Apex or EVO 2016 so we can get better MU information for Bayonetta and Corrin. =)
 

Aphistemi

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I highly doubt ZSS loses to G&W.

Ducking is cute. but it doesn't really do a lot. a good ZSS wouldn't just throw out nairs if it's clearly not working. ducking over grabs is not 100% guarantee either. so I wouldn't really use it a lot. ZSS already has a Meh neutral. no need to duck in the neutral a lot.

Up air up air up b is a true combo, you can't escape that with an up B unless the ZSS messes up. so that's not really reliable either.

Zair on stage can be controlled, so falling with a backair or nair is not that easy, and she can mix up her recovery options too.

A top 5 character with that many tools is not losing to a low-mid tier max.
 

Folie

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I highly doubt ZSS loses to G&W.

Ducking is cute. but it doesn't really do a lot. a good ZSS wouldn't just throw out nairs if it's clearly not working. ducking over grabs is not 100% guarantee either. so I wouldn't really use it a lot. ZSS already has a Meh neutral. no need to duck in the neutral a lot.

Up air up air up b is a true combo, you can't escape that with an up B unless the ZSS messes up. so that's not really reliable either.

Zair on stage can be controlled, so falling with a backair or nair is not that easy, and she can mix up her recovery options too.

A top 5 character with that many tools is not losing to a low-mid tier max.
Agreed, the more I play this MU the more I don't really see how we win. Good players can adjust to crouch jank, it's not like it's unanswerable. Crouch stuff might help us not get bodied in this MU but it's not so heavily significant that it gives us a favourable MU vs a character with some of the best tools in the game
 

NouveauRétro

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I highly doubt ZSS loses to G&W.

Ducking is cute. but it doesn't really do a lot. a good ZSS wouldn't just throw out nairs if it's clearly not working. ducking over grabs is not 100% guarantee either. so I wouldn't really use it a lot. ZSS already has a Meh neutral. no need to duck in the neutral a lot.

Up air up air up b is a true combo, you can't escape that with an up B unless the ZSS messes up. so that's not really reliable either.

Zair on stage can be controlled, so falling with a backair or nair is not that easy, and she can mix up her recovery options too.

A top 5 character with that many tools is not losing to a low-mid tier max.
I'd put her at 0, pure 50-50.
Ducking actually does a **** ton in my admittedly rather limited experience, making perfect shields a breeze so that she can't capitalize on her pressure nearly as much as she wants to. She can still capitalize, just not Top 5 character level capitalize.
IIRC* Gucki has told me that uair uair Boost Kick is deadly guaranteed from right under 30%, but you can start messing with it with DI at around the fifties.(I might be a little off on these numbers, he was pretty exact.)
Her recovery is damn good and hard as hell to edge guard though, and she can still wreck G&W's landings(Always go to ledge), but once you master the neutral(Lots of foxtrots so you're ready to duck whenever) ZSS has a hard time catching G&W, so playing the long game is far from ineffective.
Also she's light combo food at the right percents, so there's that. I don't think G&W will get the grab often but hey, 40% once a game or so is pretty huge on a lighter character.

(Also, let's say you manage to catch ZSS and push her under the ledge in a position where she has to use a tether or Boost Kick to recover. Tether can be hit with dair and Boost Kick can be semispiked with bair, making it a 50/50 recovery/gimp chance. Just wanted to share that.)
 
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Ephenilliac

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So should G&W never ever take Toon Link to FD? Cause I was getting bopped on FG by a one of the best Toon Links I've faced (idk how I always *seem* find good players on FG but that's besides the point), and here I am wondering if the match up is worse than I/we thought or if flat stages just helps TLink out that much.
 
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Aphistemi

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I'm starting to think it's either even, or in toon link's favor.

I can take games off Mike Kirby and Ninjalink, but there's a toon link called "Winds", that I struggle with a lot. he's #6 in the PR in buffalo New York.

Toon link has kill power, damage with projectiles, bucketing bombs is not safe. and he has a kill throw, Toon link is a pain to combo as well, with a small hurtbox. Off-stage is basically where we want him. we can get early kills off edge guarding and gimping.
 

phantoon

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agreed with regards to toon link, i think it's more of a disadvantage. a barrage of projectiles which we cannot (safely) bucket, trouble comboing TL, and his pretty good kill power that outranks ours make it a tough match up. also i'm not sure if it's even with roy. his range and power are better than ours and him being a fastfaller means we don't have our most damaging combos available right off the bat. we sure have the advantage in regards to gimping but still...
 

Ephenilliac

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P phantoon Roy can be scary, but as long as you space a Roy's shield with bair and fair effectively (especially bair since that one is safer lol), and keep up your walling game, it's definitely possible. Also, albeit easier said than done, Roy really wants you to jump into his stuff, so bait out his moves and be careful with how you approach. It's why bair is good in this match up. As far as combos goes, it's a pain at early percents but down throw to jab is a thing at 0%, it'll net you 18% (give or take) and from there you can do all your dthrow shenanigans. You can also try that up throw combo that someone made a thread about.
Also JustKindaBoredUKno JustKindaBoredUKno plays with a Roy afaik so you can also ask him for advice
 
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expansioN

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Solid list. A few things from my personal MU impressions though.

  • Megaman - I play quite a lot against him. While he can hit hard and spam stuff, once you get around it he´s pure juggle- combo- and gimpfood in my eyes. I´d put him at +1.
  • Link and Zard - I´m always scared of heavy hitters that aren´t ganondorf-tier or have that much trouble getting around sausages (looking at you DDD). I know I can bucket the bombs but I think it´s not that easy, that´s maybe just MU inexperience. That beeing said, I´m also sorta scared of Ganondorf and DDD, because when you make that one mistake, you can die extremely early, even without rage.
  • ZSS - She´s in the right spot, I don´t know how the recent changes work out for her though. I´ll report back, gonna play some hours against a ZSS today. .


Some notes on the -2 tiers

If I were to rank them from "pain in the beep" to "not as much pain" I´d rank them like this.

Fox
Yes you can go offstage against him IF you get him there. His onstage dominance is off the charts though. He can go in and out as he pleases and mah boy G&W just has no real answer for it.

Sanic
He is (and I hate to say that) too fast. Very hard to get around.

Diddy
Diddy is scary, but doesn´t feel as dominant as Fox or Sanic. Still, very hard to get around.

Sheik
Now Sheik... I´ve never felt that the MU is that much in her favor, even before the nerfs. She can´t kill that good making it easy to survive long against her, even as G&W. She also dies quite fast herself, either to toot toot or an upsmash. If you manage to force her using upb, you can bucket it. Yes it isn´t all that easy forcing her to use the upb, but it´s possible. Do it twice and 0-death her. (Best thing: She missinputs a sideb offstage and you bucket it)

But now after the recent nerfs... come on, put her in +1. She certainly still wins this MU, but compared to Fox, Sonic or Diddy it doesn´t even come close to beeing as intimidating.
 
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I completely agree with you about the Sheik thing. I never felt that she was overwhelmingly... overwhelming. After this patch I laugh in the face of Sheiks. Hopefully.

On another note, I think Mewtwo is definitely a +1 or 0, he has some tricky things on us now. Especially since he is so freaking fast. He's 7th fastest now, I hear?

Also,before the Meta Knight ladder was discovered, I always felt it was an even matchup. Now that that's gone, can we move him back to 0 please?

Finally, I think Ike is a +1. Game and Watch's design weakness is powerful range, but Ike can be hit by so much, and because his moves have mostly slower startup, I have been able to capitalize heavily on very small mistakes. Either that, or I am really good in the matchup. Also, one back air offstage ends him in most occasions.
 

Vader614

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Hey guys, thanks for your guys thoughts on the MU chart, especially now with the recent new patch just released last night. I'm definitely going to be redoing the MU chart in the near future, but first I want to wait out till the patch is fully analyze with all characters and possibly discuss the characters that are buffed/nerfed vs G&W now.

-Vader
 
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expansioN

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So after playing the ZSS MU for some hours now it´s save to say that she feels not as strong anymore. Maybe ZSS players just have to adjust to the nerfs because she still got exceptional framedata afterall, but based on what I saw and what my mate complained about.

  • dthrow to uair doesn´t connect that good anymore at higher percents, thanks to the much higher KBG
  • uairs still connect, but according to him feel somewhat different. She can still carry you out on top though
  • nair isn´t as safe anymore due to less shieldstun, has a little bit less range and also doesn´t combo that good anymore (the worst change according him)
I´d say this might have made the MU even, but I´d give it more time so ZSS players can adapt to the changes.

EDIT: I reconsider what I said about the MU possibly beeing even. We played some more and she still feels very strong. Not as strong as before, but still enough. Even worse, her Nair actually got a minor "buff". While she did lose a little bit of range, the Nair now angles farther down making it easier for her to hit small opponents (read: G&W while crouching). Also I had several cases of Nair hitting me out of UpSmash because she now reaches low enough. I don´t recall that beeing a thing. This only happens every now and then though, in most cases UpSmash trampled (or whatever this is now called) through. Overall, she should stay +1.
 
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Djmarcus44

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Why do you have Mii Gunner as a +2 for Mr. Game and Watch? From my personal experience against a Game and Watch player at my skill level, I think that the matchup is even. Gunner is able to use weaker projectiles to make the bucket weaker and punish Game and Watch for using bucket too often. Shorthop fair is good for keeping Game and Watch away and the low landing lag on the move allows Gunner to use dash attack (it can string into fair and fair can string into another dash attack) or jump canceled up smash to punish Game and Watch for using the bucket to absorb the projectile. In addition, Gunner is also able to juggle and edgeguard Game and Watch well. If you want the input of other Gunner players, you can post in the Mii Gunner matchup thread.
 
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Why do you have Mii Gunner as a +2 for Mr. Game and Watch? From my personal experience against a Game and Watch player at my skill level, I think that the matchup is even. Gunner is able to use weaker projectiles to make the bucket weaker and punish Game and Watch for using bucket too often. Shorthop fair is good for keeping Game and Watch away and the low landing lag on the move allows Gunner to use dash attack (it can string into fair and fair can string into another dash attack) or jump canceled up smash to punish Game and Watch for using the bucket to absorb the projectile. In addition, Gunner is also able to juggle and edgeguard Game and Watch well.
That is true, but even a weak bucket still KOS out of the guaranteed down throw bucket at around 80%. A good Gunner player wouldn't use even forward air unwisely. I also think it shouldn't be +2, but Game and Watch definitely has the advantage.

On another note, Charizard is now truly scary. I play Zard myself, and have KOd Mario with good DI at the ledge at 80%. We could potentially die at 60%.
 
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Djmarcus44

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That is true, but even a weak bucket still KOS out of the guaranteed down throw bucket at around 80%. A good Gunner player wouldn't use even forward air unwisely. I also think it shouldn't be +2, but Game and Watch definitely has the advantage.

On another note, Charizard is now truly scary. I play Zard myself, and have KOd Mario with good DI at the ledge at 80%. We could potentially die at 60%.
Can you show me a gif or a video of down throw to bucket on Gunner? (I might have time to check it myself, but it would be better if you did it since you play Game and Watch more often than I do) I have been able to DI away from down throw to bucket before in a match. I know that Gunner's fair can't be used predictably, but it is still very good in this matchup. It is also very helpful for keeping Game and Watch away when his bucket is full since it can setup a kill with charge blast at high percents.
 
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Can you show me a gif or a video of down throw to bucket on Gunner? (I might have time to check it myself, but it would be better if you did it since you play Game and Watch more often than I do) I have been able to DI away from down throw to bucket before in a match.
While I do not have gifs or videos of it, I can tell you what happens. Down throw bucket is completely guaranteed on every character from 0 to around 80% depending on character weight. The best way to do it is to down throw and move slightly backward while bucketing. This covers inward DI and no DI, and can usually cover optimal outward DI. However, covering outward or optimal DI with this method can make it escapable at those higher percents, since the oil doesn't reach the opponent before they can airdodge or jump, so a better method when the percents are unsure is to read the DI in the small time between the throw and the jump. If the opponent DIs outward, move forward. If not, use the aforementioned method. That's pretty much it, if it helps you visualize it any better.
 

Djmarcus44

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While I do not have gifs or videos of it, I can tell you what happens. Down throw bucket is completely guaranteed on every character from 0 to around 80% depending on character weight. The best way to do it is to down throw and move slightly backward while bucketing. This covers inward DI and no DI, and can usually cover optimal outward DI. However, covering outward or optimal DI with this method can make it escapable at those higher percents, since the oil doesn't reach the opponent before they can airdodge or jump, so a better method when the percents are unsure is to read the DI in the small time between the throw and the jump. If the opponent DIs outward, move forward. If not, use the aforementioned method. That's pretty much it, if it helps you visualize it any better.
This is very helpful. Thank you. With this information, I think that Game and Watch has a slight advantage in this matchup, but I am not one hundred percent sure since it is a pretty volatile matchup (it may be 45:55 or 40:60 since Gunner can also kill Game and Watch pretty early with the mixups in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). I agree that this matchup overall is no better than even for Mii Gunner, but it can shift in either character's favor depending on the stage choice.
 

Vader614

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Okay guys, the MU chart has been updated, especially with the latest patch released!
Remember, it's:

+2=Easily favors for G&W

+1=Favors for G&W.

0=A 50/50 chance where G&W can win or lose to

-1=Harder characters for G&W to win against, but it can still be possible.

-2=Almost to never winnable against these characters.

Capture.PNG



-Vader
 

Mr. Escalator

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The only character on the list that I staunchly disagree with is Kirby - I've played that MU to death with multiple players in my region, and G&W wins that MU. Kirby should die every time he's offstage in the MU, while he can't gimp G&W back. Toot toot is super easy on Kirby (as it is on MK). Sword characters beat Kirby in general. Etc. Etc.

It's Even at MINIMUM, but I'm pretty confident that we take it.

I think we have a slight advantage on Wii Fit, and I think we might have a slight disadvantage vs Toon Link. Sorry that I haven't been in the Skype group lately <3
 

Kofu

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Yeah I have no idea how WFT wouldn't be in our advantage. You can even bucket Sun Salutation during the charge (makes for a weak bucket but it kills her charge).

The Villager MU is probably even, especially if the Villager is smart and doesn't just throw out Lloids wantonly. ROB is also even if not our advantage.
 
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NouveauRétro

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Yeah I have no idea how WFT wouldn't be in our advantage. You can even bucket Sun Salutation during the charge (makes for a weak bucket but it kills her charge).

The Villager MU is probably even, especially if the Villager is smart and doesn't just throw out Lloids wantonly. ROB is also even if not our advantage.
ROB is definitely not our advantage imo, but I'd say even. We've got some jank against him, but they're not hugely effective gimmicks aside from dtilting the Gyro. He's pretty good at keeping G&W out without Lasers with a solid ground game, notably dtilt and grab combos. The advantages are pretty obvious; combo food, easy recovery, easy aerials to counter, and weakened camping.
 

Kofu

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ROB is definitely not our advantage imo, but I'd say even. We've got some jank against him, but they're not hugely effective gimmicks aside from dtilting the Gyro. He's pretty good at keeping G&W out without Lasers with a solid ground game, notably dtilt and grab combos. The advantages are pretty obvious; combo food, easy recovery, easy aerials to counter, and weakened camping.
ROB's ground range was nerfed pretty hard from Brawl. It's decent with DTilt but his grab combos get destroyed by rage.

I think it's even to leaning toward our advantage, but hey. Opinions differ.
 

Mr. Escalator

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We struggle too much in neutral to be able to adequately handle ROB. His Gyro game is rough, and it's coupled with a solid defensive/grab game to punish our approaches. We have a lot of good things going for us in the MU, but I'd give it to ROB.
 

Ephenilliac

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Played against Ally in bracket, and he uses Marth for G&W. Marth can basically upB out of most of our combos if we don't use the fastest options, which makes the match up harder than I think it used to be. Kirby and Yoshi have potential to be +0 but for now I can understand them being -1. Corrin might become -2 down the road, that character just has all the tools in the world to beat G&W. And like expansioN expansioN said, Diddy Kong is probably the most doable -2 for us, but I still wouldn't consider it -1 on a good day. Also gonna have to word Expansion on the fact that heavies are indeed scary if you end up slipping lol.

Fighting ROB is a pain in the ass but it comes down to reading habits, aka figuring out when they gyro and laser. Once you get a hold of that you can force yourself in. Again it's a pain in the ass. Also they like to nair to protect themselves, however it's not the greatest approach option in the the world so a well timed nair or up smash can do snuff it out.
 
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I like these changes to the chart very much! Just a few things seem awry however...


I'm curious as to what makes the Pits -1
I was wondering that myself. Their range in the air isn't anything overwhelming, they are pretty easy offstage even with their jumps, their ground game is pretty manageable (at least compared to others like Sheik or Greninja), and we get out of combos early. It's not like they can camp us with arrows, and Toot Toot has a good percent window in the matchup. Maybe both are even matchups?

Why is Kirby -1? Neither character does well approaching the other, but Game and Watch can play way better in the patient game. Kirby loses hard against Game and Watch's range, especially offstage, and inhaling doesn't do too much for him either. I'd call it even or more likely +1.

Wii Fit Trainer is +1 for sure. She can't zone with Sun Salutation, her recovery is easily back aired, and her aerial approaches on Game and Watch are pretty risky.

Villager is a +1? I have little experience in this matchup, can someone tell me how to play it?

Toon Link should be a -1. Bombs are not safely bucketed. Toon Link is fast and floaty, with good combos, great KO power, and the second or third best back throw. We get zoned pretty hard, but I don't think it's that overwhelming. If there were sections of this chart, I'd put Toon Link in low -1.

Also, any advice on Yoshi and Bowser Jr? I'm in a pretty tournament-barren area here in Virginia, but I definitely have had problems with those characters at the three locals I've been to. Help would be greatly appreciated while I'm busy trying to crack the Bayonetta matchup.
 

NouveauRétro

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I like these changes to the chart very much! Just a few things seem awry however...





Why is Kirby -1?



Villager is a +1? I have little experience in this matchup, can someone tell me how to play it?

Toon Link should be a -1. Bombs are not safely bucketed. Toon Link is fast and floaty, with good combos, great KO power, and the second or third best back throw. We get zoned pretty hard, but I don't think it's that overwhelming. If there were sections of this chart, I'd put Toon Link in low -1.

Also, any advice on Yoshi and Bowser Jr?. Help would be greatly appreciated while I'm busy trying to crack the Bayonetta matchup.
OK, Kirby first;
He's there on SeanS's recommendation. He plays Mike Kirby and Devon3000 a lot so he probably knows something.
Villager is totally a +1. Trying to space with landing aerials gets easily clanked with or loses to dash attack or if it's not dair or uair beat by usmash, bad grab means good shield pressure as long as you outspace nair OoS, can put on like 50% every time you force him to recover, Chef is more effective than you'd think bc he's kinda slow, a well timed Fire beats the bowling ball and can even autopunish them for trying, and very importantly two bad Lloids basically equals a stock loss for the Villager.

Pretty much agree on Tink

Dunno about BowJow, but I fight Yoshi so often it's easily my most comfortable matchup at this point, not counting really good MUs. I have a bunch of advice for that one.
Respect Yoshi jab and Nair OoS by spacing out approaching bairs well. And don't approach Yoshi on the ground often.
Don't respect Eggs in the neutral. Enough endlag to be punished by a distance if perfect shielded.
Respect dash attack on shield depending on when it hits. If it hits later dash attack. If it hits near the beginning just position yourself in a good spot.
With grab at low percent of 0-11%, uthrow jump Fire fair is only combo he can't jump put of.
Despite his air speed, Yoshi will have trouble landing if you manage to stay under him with foxtrot and good movement and challenge him just as he's gonna land. Don't jump the gun!
This requires a lot of experience, but Yoshi fair is a perfectly usmashable move even when spaced perfectly. If they want to stay safe the timing and spacing is pretty predictable, so after enough fighting Yoshi I became able to smash him the moment he extends his hitbox. The range it catches him at is pretty funny.
If you're not comfortable enough amd shield fair, note what they do afterwards. Any option that isn't shield can be beat in startup ot clanked(jab) by dash attack OoS, and if you read shield you can grab. Just don't shield grab lol

Try not to trade Fire with Yoshi dair, you'llget pseudo spiked
When Yoshi is offstage, the chance of a successful gimp is rather low. But here's what you can do.
High recovery:Get under, and wait for either dj armor to wear off(pretty much right after he stops flutter kicking) or he does a fear option like airdodge or nair. Punish with Fire, and now they're pretty far offstage without a jump depending on their percent. Respect the size and tradability of eggs and you should get the stock.
Recover low:Keep timing out dash attacks on the ledge until they recover high or right over ledge
Jump right over ledge: free usmash or usmash-dash attack, no escape with good chasing since they've given themselves no space to move or react.

There you go! It's not comprehensive of my knowledge but it's a great place to start learning the MU, I think you can fill in the rest for yourself.
 

Dirby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
5
Other than the +1 Ness (I think it's either even or slightly in favor of Ness), I think this list seems pretty legit.
 

NouveauRétro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2015
Messages
319
Location
Long Island, currently upstate
NNID
Royal_Bros.
Other than the +1 Ness (I think it's either even or slightly in favor of Ness), I think this list seems pretty legit.
It's hard to tell with incredibly volatile matchups like Ness, but I would NOT put it in his favor. Ness stocks are just so easy to turn around and take. I think the actual form of the matchup is +1 for G&W because Ness should theoretically have as good a chance of recovering after being forced to use PK Thunder as against Rosalina. PK Fire doesn't combo into anything even if you do get hit and his really good aerials get usmashed except for fair which is unsafe.
Double jump can be taken by multihits or lingering aerials.
My doubles partner is a Ness and even then I can't be sure it's not even though.
Look how much this child's life is in my hands offstage mwahahahah
 

NouveauRétro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2015
Messages
319
Location
Long Island, currently upstate
NNID
Royal_Bros.
Copying some stuff from Skype chat;

I think
If you really lab it out
G&W goes even with Bayonetta
But that's hotly debateable
She IS pretty good at timing G&W out if she goes for it
But y'know
There are specific points in her combos where if she does a certain move or you read a certain move
You escape or even kill if she gets greedy and takes you high up
She certainly can't kill combo you from the ground until like 90% on the ledge which is much more than you can say for 80% of the cast
I think it's a MU where you have to change the way you play, kinda like DHD
But unlike DHD I think she's perfectly doable after adaptation

I have labbed the crapola out of her abut have only fought 2 capable Bayonetta secondaries and one actual main so I need more experience to be sure of all this of course
Anyway point is no one stays Bayonetta(including the main) after fighting my G&W because I either win or get really close to winning.

Some specific notes:
Pivot ftilt beats Side B aerial and grounded, and the grounded version is already punishable as hell
toot toot can kill obscenely early with rage and rage is wont to happen with Bayonetta
Witch Twist beats dair BUT I have found some success with bair and B Reverse Chef off ledge-Fire
Her smashes are garbo in the neutral if G&W jabs/ftilts for safety after a defensive option with good timing
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here's the thing with Corrin
A: Her sword doesn't beat usmash
B: He can't hazard attacking first except with very few moves

I can see the MU being -1
Just don't respect her too much

Dash attack out of shield is your best friend against Corrin

Marth is different from Corrin in Sm4sh to me
Math has crazier range and beats shield at low percents easier bc of Specials
Also faster yeah.
He's total combo food compared to Marthcina
Waaaay easier to end stocks offstage
TBH I think it's even but I won't challenge the current placing bc it may just be familiarity with this one Corrin

Later EDIT: Oh look a Corrin vs G&W that proves some of my points
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"Explain +1 against Pacman"-someone else
As a former Pacman main I second this +1 designation
You know how Hydrant is supposed to distract players?
Well
usmash makes it gtfo before it even hits the ground
dair kills it with no lag because the platform disappeared
dsmash sends it at awesome angles with both sour(pressure angle) and sweetspot(trap angle) for 50-50s that you don't even know

Also kinda combo food for double nair
Side B is free dair if timed correctly, and is in general gimpable by lingering hitboxes
Projectiles can be stolen and used effectively(But maybe just me as a Pacman player)
Shield is especially easy to harass(Poor Pacman)
Trampoline kill setups at ledge are nullified by Fire from the ledge and Pacman isn't particularly good at catching landings outside of well timed Key
And generally has a hard time beating defensive G&W
It's definitely not +2 or anything
Or even a really bad +1
Just a normal +1
 
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