The Future of Samus: THE LEDGE

[Xyro77]

The Future of Samus: THE LEDGE​

This thread will slowly turn into what XYRO thinks is the the future of Samus in Brawl. Over the past month or 2, ive been able to beat people CLEARLY better than me(razer/atmosk/royr/kismet......ect). Not by spamming or by out smarting them or by going metaknight. Ive beat them by literally LIVING on the ledge. I spend 99% of my game on the ledge or running around to get to the ledge. So by knowing how samus works and applying that while im on the ledge, it has granted me SO MANY options and at the same time reduced SO MANY of the enemys options.


PART 1: The way you view Samus/Brawl.

I need ALL of you to take how you feel about samus, how you feel about brawl, how you feel about whats FAIR and NOT FAIR, how you feel about Samus vs whoever and throw it all out the window. Kiss it goodbye and lob its *** out the 50th floor of some big *** building. I need ALL of you to realize that you CANNOT play fair with Samus any more. You CANNOT think to yourself "i feel so bad when i do abc/xyz/123 to the foe, it feels wrong." I need ALL of you to take what ever morals you have with Samus and flush it down the potty. I need ALL of you to really change the way you think about all of this because its time to play as HOMO and boring and as ******** as possible from now on. Think of it this way, will a metaknight/ddd/snake/falco/olimar/FBI/CIA/DVD/VCR take it easy on you? Will they think thier move set is too powerfull for you so they will not try as hard vs you? BULL ****! They will HOMO your *** up as much as possible to get that win. Well its time to take that HOMO and ram it up thier ***!!!

"but why, Mr. Lesbian?!?!?!?!?!!?!?"

Because if you do, you will be able to beat every character in the game but 3 or 4 on just about ANY stage. I kid you not! If you do what i am about to explain to you in this thread, you will be able to beat people that are clearly better than you. I know it sounds like "WTF, you are stupid" but its the truth!!!! Have faith, i have never sent you down a path you cannot win.


PART 2: Grab/tether/get-up attack(over and under 100%) ledge data.

In this section i will take a second and give you some basic ledge info when it comes to Samus. This isnt game breaking but it is good to know and it will help you later on down the road. Just give it a chance to sink in.

When Samus does a ledge get-up attack UNDER 100%
ledge attack quick: (<100%)
invulnerable frames 1-24
Hitbox on frame 25-29

When Samus does a ledge get-up attack from OVER 100%
ledge attack slow: (>100%)
invulnerable frames: 1-42
Hitbox on frame 38-42


When Samus GRABS the ledge:

Invincibility Frames - 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26


When samus TETHERS the ledge:

Invincibility Frames - 23
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 1
Ledge Drop Frame - 3

Extra Info
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.
-The maximum amount of invincibility frames on ledge drop is 21 frames for everyone.


Now we all know that when a character auto snaps to the ledge from a UP+B or jump you can see that you dont have to aim EXACTLY at the ledge right? Well samus is the one character that has the LARGEST auto snap from her UP+B in the game(she can be farther away from the ledge than any other character and can still auto snap to it). He also has the LONGEST horizontal tether in the game.


PART 3: The timer/ledge stalling rules and limits.


Stalling rule: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling.

When we ledge stall it is totally punishable(GW/meta/pit and MAYBE lucario and fox can stop us) so the rule above that states "one may make the game unplayable" is N/A when it comes to us. We are safe.

Timers/ledge grab limits: Most events have a 7-8 min timer AND a 50-100 ledge grab limit. Do some quick math to see how long it take for you to eat up all 100 grabs(assuming u just fall to UP+B). Then figure how much is left over and make the needed changes lke take more time while up+B or stay on the stage for a certain amount of time THEN eat up your ledge grabs or camp platform for a bit.....ect. Some levels( norfair, brinstar, japes, castle seige prt 2, pirate ship, pkmn stadium mountain/fire/water,Smashville moving platform) allow you to stay near the ledge but never even come close to eating up all your ledge grabs. There are ways around the ledge limit. Be creative and THINK about it.





PART 4: What can we do from the ledge?

This section will be a list of options that I KNOW you can do while on or from the ledge. I will leave certain not very usefull or very situational stuff out and put it in the video section later on.


Zair:

We can zair from the ledge and through the ledge(which can cover HALF the stage) to nail the foes feet. On certain stages like Halbert/Delphino/brinstar we can cover MORE than half the stage with our zair by going slightly under the stage. We can also wall jump certain stages like BF/FD and zair the opposite way of the ledge to prevent the foe from coming back off. We can also do the classic re-tether gimp to stop peoples UP+B recoveries.

Lock-on missles/Super missles/Charge shot

Again, wall jumping these puppies can send the projectiles off stage to gimp the foe. Wall jumping them on FD can make them travel the floor of FD. Stages like dephino/halbert allow you to shoot missles THROUGH the stage. Whats even more important is the charge shot going through ALL the stages due to the tech called "reverse charge shot" you can also reverse throw amor pieces/bombs/bananas while near the ledge and fire a charge shot through the stage as you fall off.

F-air and U-air

You can F-air/U-air people from the ledge and have the potential of shield poking which can lead to many thing suck as up+b, D tilt,d-smash, jabs, grabs.....ect. You can also try the LESS risky/pretty safe RETREATING fair/uair. Fair/uair from ledge on certain stages where there is a breakable item(brinstar/luigis mansion polls....ect) will extend the time the hit box is out which can lead to easier hits. On certain stages like halbert and Delphino you can even go under the stage for a quick hit or 2 from uair or fair.



The whole point of me explaining this basic stuff is to get you to realize that getting the percent lead or getting free damage isnt really that hard because it involves LITTLE risk and decent damage output if you land it right. If by doing fair/uair/missles/Charge shot and it hurts/combos the foe, you did your job. No go back to the ledge and relax. In other words, get the damage in and go back to/stay on the ledge.

PART 5: The problems we face and how we counter it.

1. What if the foe decides to stay on the other side of the stage and not approach and/or power shields everything? Our CS/Missle/Zair to grab stuff can be landed at LEAST ONCE. Land it then head to the ledge and go from there. In other words, get a percent lead and then go for ledge.

2. Meta/GW can and will stop your attempts to stay on the ledge. GW/meta nair and UP+B crushes all ledge stalling techniques. There is no cure for it. Pits Nair/Uair can mess us up. Lucarios Dair can mess us up if we do not keep our eyes open. Foxs shine can screw us all to hell if we do not pay close attention. Other than that there is little to NO WAY any other character can stop us, its all a matter of seeing thier attempt coming and avoiding it.

Example:

DDD will run off ledge and bair and then attempt to repeat bair you once hes off the stage.
Marth will run off and Bair and then fair and then UP+B.
Snake will drop nades and C4 and set it all off or be dumb and run off and bair.
Diddy will drop a banana then follow it off stage to attack you.

See? its all common sense, easy to avoid stuff and they cant be creative with it. And some times they are so worried about trying to hit you while you are on the ledge they leave them selfs open for zair through stage or other stuff.

3. What if they choose a stage that you REALLY cant ledge stall on like rainbow cruise/brinstar? Then platform camp/run(samus has really good jumps and ways to stall in the air[bombs]). This can be done on nearly ANY level to nearly ANY character. You just need to THINK about what you are doing and dont be so predictable. This can also be mixed with the ledge limit rule to help you save some of you ledge grabs for later on in the match.



PART 6: Videos


Coming soon.......



PART 7: Too long didnt read

Get % or stock lead, stay on the ledge untill timer runs out.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Cool, it's up.


I said on AIM that there was about a 2 - 3 frame gap between the get up to the attack in invincibility. Tristan and I looked into it about a month ago because we wanted to know who all we could chain over the ledge.
Over 100% you are invincible from get up to attack. No way of getting around it.

Also, I find this thread very cool. WOOT!
Now I just need to work on Sheiks anti planking tools (Vanish, Chain and Needle's).
Oh, when should the video's of me getting ***** by this be up? (Well, technically I wasn't ***** because we were doing that to make footage... owell.)

 

[n00b]

Goodbye, Samus boards.

 

[Icyo]

Toke jopic

 

[Xyro77]

this is not a joke topic. its dead serious and it works. ill add more to it tonight. if your going to post, please dont spam

 

[Icyo]

What would happen when one would have to venture away from the ledge in order to get someone in the middle of the stage?

 

[Xyro77]

What would happen when one would have to venture away from the ledge in order to get someone in the middle of the stage?

i will explain all of this tonight after my GF leaves. Its really common sense though and you will thank me later.

 

[-Ran]

But how are you going to kill?
What will you do when your opponent has the lead?
What will you do when your opponent doesn't approach and just power shields everything from afar or snaps to the other ledge?
What will you do when the TO is standing over your shoulder?

Yes, this could be used to mount damage on someone, but unless they are a total moron it shouldn't kill them. As long as they don't approach you, and you keep on the edge you're going to be called for excessive ledge stalling.

 

[Xyro77]

But how are you going to kill?
What will you do when your opponent has the lead?
What will you do when your opponent doesn't approach and just power shields everything from afar or snaps to the other ledge?
What will you do when the TO is standing over your shoulder?

Yes, this could be used to mount damage on someone, but unless they are a total moron it shouldn't kill them. As long as they don't approach you, and you keep on the edge you're going to be called for excessive ledge stalling.

Will be covered in part 3. relax. i think all of this through.

 

[saviorslegacy]

But how are you going to kill?
This is a Sheik thing.
If a wall or a combo gets them to percents where you have multiple kill options then the problem has been removed.
What will you do when your opponent has the lead?
Play the projectile wall game I guess and combo as usual.
What will you do when your opponent doesn't approach and just power shields everything from afar or snaps to the other ledge?
Good luck with that. I've tried this tactic.... it doesn't work easy as it is.
You find yourself not power shielding 100% of the time and getting NO WHERE in the match.
The way the whole planking game works is that you want to get in the lead with percents. After that you use the ledge as a soldier would cover. You hide behind it and attack when you can while taking limited punishment but maximizing your punishment.
What will you do when the TO is standing over your shoulder?
What is a TO?

Yes, this could be used to mount damage on someone, but unless they are a total moron it shouldn't kill them. As long as they don't approach you, and you keep on the edge you're going to be called for excessive ledge stalling.

*green

You need to play the damage game and force them to come over to you. Also, they have to deal with gay missile's. I doubt that they can call excessive ledge stalling when you are still spamming a projectile and they are shielding.
Also, this isn't a KO tool. It is a wall tool that the foe is forced to try and penetrate.
Luckily Sheik has Needle's, Chain and Vanish to counter all of this. So I am not worried and I will support Xyro.

I have felt like Samus needs to abuse the ledge after seeing these vids last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAgkv6uiYhY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B6Fij_PhNQ
Xyro is simply exploiting Brawl dumb mechanics. THANKS GOD no one is like Melee Ganon!!!!!

If using this helps out Samus then why not use it? Do you seriously want to make yourself worse?

 

[LanceStern]

Xyro no joke I was playing tonight on Battlefield and was going to make a topic about how beastly she can abuse the ledge and hurt opponents and that I thought it would be the future of her metagame.

She abuses the ledge at Battlefield better than high tiers. I REALLY LIKE TO AUTO-Wall Jump -> Bair on Battlefield.

I also do a lot of directly running off the stage -> Bair and her ledge jump -> fair -> back to ledge is useful too

 

[KillerJawz]

She abuses the ledge at Battlefield better than high tiers. I REALLY LIKE TO AUTO-Wall Jump -> Bair on Battlefield.

I also do a lot of directly running off the stage -> Bair and her ledge jump -> fair -> back to ledge is useful too

I thought I was the only one who did this <3. It's a superb tactic :3.

Yeah ledge just *****

 

[Mr9]

strangly enough even i noticed that samus has superior ledge game

 

[bleyva]

so like, are we talkin auto-top tierz for samus?

 

[R1OT]

shes not auto top tier or anywhere close to it.

 

[Kitamerby]

ledge attack quick: (<100%)
invulnerable frames 1-24

Hitbox on frame 25-29

ledge attack slow: (>100%)
invulnerable frames: 1-42
Hitbox on frame 38-42

Just a quick check in PSA. <<

 

[tha_carter]

ahahaha you people are SO lame

 

[saviorslegacy]

ledge attack quick: (<100%)
invulnerable frames 1-24

Hitbox on frame 25-29

ledge attack slow: (>100%)
invulnerable frames: 1-42
Hitbox on frame 38-42

Just a quick check in PSA. <<

I checked the PSA.
How did you get those numbers?

 

[Kitamerby]

I checked the PSA.
How did you get those numbers?

Sub-actions D7 and DC.

 

[Xyro77]

I trusted savior for the frame data and now i see different frame data. who is correct?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Sub-actions D7 and DC.

I just double checked.
It says what I gave Xyro the first time.

 

[IsmaR]

This is going to make Samus dittos soooooooooo much fun.

 

[Hyesz]

I love how this says "the future of Samus" when Tudor was pulling this **** ages ago.

 

[Mr9]

here how i see it since samus lacks the ability to fast fall this is probably a decent strategy against many different players. i mean other than MK, who ells can hold their own when it comes to ledge wars?

 

[Xyro77]

I love how this says "the future of Samus" when Tudor was pulling this **** ages ago.

Incorrect.


He did make a video of some things samus can do on the ledge but it was basic. Ive seen his vids, he did not stay on the ledge or near the ledge the majority of the match. The times he was on the ledge he did the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN..........re-tether x2 to fair.




If people read what i say and really sit down and try it, you will understand how LITTLE the foe can do to you. Mr.9, in the opening posted i mentioned the character who you should NEVER play ledge games with because they are very capable of taking the ledge from you.

 

[tha_carter]

here how i see it since samus lacks the ability to fast fall this is probably a decent strategy against many different players. i mean other than MK, who ells can hold their own when it comes to ledge wars?

Yea, youre right mk easily gets around it.

Snake, grenades, mines and c4.....Wario, would LOVE for you to not attack him while his fart builds...3De could spam waddle dees or jump off and spam b-airs...diddy camp peanut gun or bananas... pikachuuu pikachuuu pikachuuu.. IC ice blocks +blizzard....

All samus' bad matchups can easily get around this. You dont even need to do the above techniques... you could just play smart and patient and it wouldnt be a big deal.

Knowing how to use the ledge is fine. But abusing the ledge is just stupid. Besides that; its just SO lame. lmao

 

[IsmaR]

Knowing how to use the ledge is fine. But abusing the ledge is just stupid. Besides that; its just SO lame. lmao

/thread-worthy right there. But that would be spam.

 

[Kitamerby]

I just double checked.
It says what I gave Xyro the first time.

You add a frame to the starting times. Meta Knight's Dsmash shows up at frame 3 in PSA for example. The asynchronous timers start one frame into the animation. Stuff without an asynchronous timer starts on frame 1.

For example, in CliffAttackSlow(Sub-action DC), it says that Samus is invulnerable at the start. Then it says that on frame 38 she has a few hitbubbles that last 4 frames. After the 4 frames are over, it reverts the body collision status back to normal. Hence, Frames 1-42 are invincible, hitbox on frames 38-42.

On CliffAttackQuick(Sub-action D7), it says Samus is invincible at the start up until frame 24, where her body collision is set back to normal. One frame later, on frame 25, a hitbox appears for 4 frames. Thus, frames 1-24 are invincible, hitbox on frames 25-29.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You add a frame to the starting times. Meta Knight's Dsmash shows up at frame 3 in PSA for example. The asynchronous timers start one frame into the animation. Stuff without an asynchronous timer starts on frame 1.

For example, in CliffAttackSlow(Sub-action DC), it says that Samus is invulnerable at the start. Then it says that on frame 38 she has a few hitbubbles that last 4 frames. After the 4 frames are over, it reverts the body collision status back to normal. Hence, Frames 1-42 are invincible, hitbox on frames 38-42.

On CliffAttackQuick(Sub-action D7), it says Samus is invincible at the start up until frame 24, where her body collision is set back to normal. One frame later, on frame 25, a hitbox appears for 4 frames. Thus, frames 1-24 are invincible, hitbox on frames 25-29.

Oooooooh....
I wasn't told that. Either that or I forget it.
Thanks dude.

*was right about the fact that you can be attacked out of your get up under 100%

 

[Xyro77]

Snake, grenades, mines and c4.....Wario, would LOVE for you to not attack him while his fart builds...3De could spam waddle dees or jump off and spam b-airs...diddy camp peanut gun or bananas... pikachuuu pikachuuu pikachuuu.. IC ice blocks +blizzard....

All samus' bad matchups can easily get around this. You dont even need to do the above techniques... you could just play smart and patient and it wouldnt be a big deal.

Knowing how to use the ledge is fine. But abusing the ledge is just stupid. Besides that; its just SO lame. lmao

Wario fart building is fine. Its the ONE thing you KNOW he will try to land since he cant stop your ledge stalling. So avoid it. Its very easy to see the ONE option he has coming.

Snakes C4+nade combo ive seen 100 times and in 100 different combinations. Easy to avoid.

IC and pika spam is at a constant or easy to see pattern. EASY AS HELL to avoid.

DIddy has only 2 bananas to use and hes only gonna try and use one to stop you. Easy to see coming.


Already covere ddd and in fact that how i BEAT the best ddd out there because of the ledge. waddle dees and bair are the ONLY options he can do so again its easy to see coming.






The whole point of this ledge thread is to get all of you to realize SAMUS has lots of options ON the ledge while the foe is reduced to 1 or 2 options and MOST of the time they are SO easy to see coming you can prepare for it and avoid it well ahead of time. Please tell me i am not the ONLY one who can abuse and win with this.

 

[LanceStern]

Only thing is when I do a lot of ledge tactics against metaknight he either dsmashes, falling nair or falling dairs my attempt to retether.


I have no intention of stalling the clock.

But I do see the pain this can serve to opponents. heaping, stomach-bursting, spoonfuls of pain. I honestly woop on metaknights and other characters best when I'm off the ledge. This really could be the future, cause she owns that ledge.

 

[Mr9]

Wario fart building is fine. Its the ONE thing you KNOW he will try to land since he cant stop your ledge stalling. So avoid it. Its very easy to see the ONE option he has coming.

Snakes C4+nade combo ive seen 100 times and in 100 different combinations. Easy to avoid.

IC and pika spam is at a constant or easy to see pattern. EASY AS HELL to avoid.

DIddy has only 2 bananas to use and hes only gonna try and use one to stop you. Easy to see coming.


Already covere ddd and in fact that how i BEAT the best ddd out there because of the ledge. waddle dees and bair are the ONLY options he can do so again its easy to see coming.






The whole point of this ledge thread is to get all of you to realize SAMUS has lots of options ON the ledge while the foe is reduced to 1 or 2 options and MOST of the time they are SO easy to see coming you can prepare for it and avoid it well ahead of time. Please tell me i am not the ONLY one who can abuse and win with this.

this is one of my favorite things to do to be honest its really fun against diddy

 

[DelxDoom]

This is going to make Samus dittos soooooooooo much fun.

we should share the same ledge <3

 

[KillerJawz]

we should share the same ledge <3

I wanna get in on this action

 

[RaigothDagon]

Id hate so much to see Samus' game to go only to the ledge in the future, but if it is to get her to win more, I guess it is alright. I already knew pretty early on that she was good on the ledge, in fact most of the time in hard matchups they always got me to the ledge anyway and end up just trading hits with me even though I tried my hardest to stay off of it.

 

[Mr9]

I wanna get in on this action

me to samus on samus is always sexy. in every way

 

[teluoborg]

we should share the same ledge <3

I do that a lot. Falcon/Samus matchs are awesome for that reason.

 

[IsmaR]

Haha. Ledge battles as Falcon/Ganon are awesome, too.

 

[Jasona]

i need to start counting my ledge grabs. i'd camp on the ledge more, if i could stay under the limit

 

[Hive]

Samus has soo many great ledge options, its definitely what her metagame is turning into for a lot of matchups, its great to see people talking about it more. I really do think its probably the second best ledge game in brawl behind metaknight ^^ although I think the carter is right in that a lot of chars she has trouble with can still overcome it -metaknight, snake, and marth especially and ddd not as much as you'd hope either. I find it very good against diddys and falcos though.
Its just too bad that it has gotten to the point where it is who can abuse x tactic more in so many of her matches and less about showing tangible amounts of skill because so many matchups become more about one person's skill at a char/tactic then competing your skills against someone else's (if that makes sense).
Last time I hit a tournament I ended up playing a falco player and after he laser/phatasm camped me the first game i had to come back and ledge camp the whole next two games to avoid laser camps and put the matchup in my favor.... it worked beautifully and I got the win, but at the same time, I felt bad because the win didn't really test anything... idk it just felt like a sort of anti-theme to fighting games, well imo.
Samus needs moar v. Rob, zss, and peach matchups! <3