The Future Of Bowser

Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#1
The thread for talking/fixing/improving the things about Bowser (NOT A GUIDE, UPDATED THREAD FOR BOWSER AND HIS MATCHUPS/META!)
Some things i wanna get off of my chest first, honestly the Old bowser guide is outdated and shys away new bowser players, we should create a new guide. (This is not the new bowser guide, just talking about a new one. We should definitely get together more and talk about critiquing sets/labbing. You can ask one of the discord mods for the under construction new guide). Because there have been recent discoveries/groups that have come together and they need to be talked about I should talk about them.
Movement and Bowser
Bowser's main movement tools are his wavelands, wavedashes and moonwalks. There is a technique for Bowser that makes it so you NIL (No Impact Landing) on most stages. Which can be seen here for reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FPgMKssIkQ
Basically this allows bowser to move more swiftly on stages where he can do this. FoD highest platform, edge of YS, Battlefield (Top and Sides), Dreamland (sides, is different from most because you must do it a frame late) and PS. (More info about this topic can be seen in the video above.
Neutral
I believe bowser should become an aggressive wall while using his ftilts, fairs, falling nairs/KK, dash grab, tomahawk, shield games and other moves (that you guys think could help below) while using wavelands/wavedashes/UpbNIL.
For defense we're honestly set, we have one of the best OoS options in the game (which can lead into a techchase situation/kill when hit.), Fairs/Ftilts, platform games, amazing CC, and even ledge cancels too.
Punish
Bowser's punish game on fastfallers is great, most of the time they lead into an edgeguard situation, kill, or a techchase. On Floaties like Sheik/Marth his punish game is more complicated, throw combos (be it Koopa Klaw or Uthrow/Dthrow), jab utilt, upb shenanigans with the weak/multi hits of it, and much more where you can talk about below. When a character is too light/floaty to be combo'd , its usually best to get them offstage/in the air/or rack up % to get a kill.
Other
Labbing, Matchup/meta talk, and really any talk that contributes to bowser is welcome.
Discord: https://discord.gg/4jpjZkB (When joined do .im Non-Koopa or .im Bowser to see the rest of chat)
Discord is essentially skype but better and not annoying, easier to message in too. You can easily find most of our discoveries/gifs/lab data in here.
 
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Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#3
I see a lot of potential in it
>Can start a combo/end one too
>Helps with movement
>Shield pressure (pokes shield and is hard to challenge)
>Helps recovery
if you saw the video, you will know.
Also i wanna address the New Guide, i've already written the Intro and some parts for crouch cancel (I do crouch cancel charts to help people understand the percents. Helps more when the character is underdeveloped and his CC options/CC in general is great.
 

Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#5
Here's some notable gifs from bowser discord that you guys should know about
Falco Chaingrab:No DI, DI full horizontal away, DI in, DI down and away (non-perfect), DI down and away (perfect), some cool things after: https://gfycat.com/WideHandyGrizzlybear
Nair into Fair combo on midweights (Marth shown) https://gfycat.com/WellgroomedAngryAmericancrow
Pikachu fair trading with Upb and a little extra too: https://gfycat.com/JoyfulWeightyJapanesebeetle
Speed Comparison: https://gfycat.com/DefiantSmugCockerspaniel (Charlie Walks, Wavedashing, and running)
Bowser Fortress Warp (UPB NIL) on YS and movement showcase: https://gfycat.com/FoolhardyTheseAsianelephant
Movement Showcase on BF: https://gfycat.com/YearlyUnluckyBassethound (Without bubbles)
With Bubbles https://gfycat.com/AgreeableAgedAstrangiacoral
Bowser zero to death combo with no DI on foxhttps://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HotImpossibleAmericanmarten (Mine)
Bowser invincible ledgestall https://gfycat.com/KnobbyDifficultBanteng
Bowser down B giving a warped ECB allowing him to get distance for his ledge dash https://gfycat.com/EveryBewitchedEsok
There's most likely a lot more that im forgetting about
 

Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#6
I'll dump some of the CC Charts that i've done for bowser [(Only have done a few)(True CCs)]
Bowser Fox CC Defensive
Edge Fast:0-999
Edge slow:0-999
floor back hit 1:0-113
floor back hit 2:0-113
floor front hit 1:0-113
floor front hit 2:0-113
dair:no
uair first hit:0-999
uair 2nd hit:0-39
bair clean sour:34-134
bair clean sweet:13-77
bair late:34-134
fair:0-158
nair clean:11-89
nair late:34-134
dsmash sour:16-138
dsmash sweet:0-108
usmash clean:0-30
usmash late:8-82
fsmash clean:2-64
fsmash late:20-98
dtilt:0-64
utilt sour:0-68
utilt sweet:0-48
ftilt:34-134
dash clean:0-124
dash late:0-201
jabs:0-high percents where you shouldnt be alive
side B air:0-111
side B ground:0-185
lasers:no.
Shine:no
up b launch:0-65
upb chargeup:0-high percents where you shouldnt be alive

Bowser v.s. Falco Defensive CC
edge <%100/>%100:0-999
floor getup:0-114
Drill:No
uair hit 1:past liveable percents
uair hit 2:0-73
bair clean sour hitbox:0-134
bair clean sweet hitbox:13-77
fair
1:20-121
2:24-134
3:28-151
4:40-198
5:0-158
nair clean:11-90
nair late:34-134
dsmash sour:0-115
dsmash sweet:0-91
usmash clean:0-60
usmash late:11-89
fsmash clean:0-40
fmmash late:4-69
dtilt:0-46
**utilt**:0-71
ftilt:34-134
dash clean:0-98
dash late:0-174
all jabs:from zero to very high percents
sideb ground:0-93
sideb air:no
lasers:no (reduce lag)
shine:no
upb:0-25

marth bowser CC
edge:inf
floor getup:113
dair tipper:no
dair weak hit:23-166
dair weak2 hit:3-146
dair mid hit:0-114
uair tipper:0-86
uair weak:0-170
uair weak2:0-166
uair mid:0-132
bair tipper:0-101
bair weak:43-186
bair weak2:13-156
fair tipper:0-83
fair weak:23-166
fair mid:1-132
nair1:0-highpercents
nair2:0-79
dsmash tipper:0-11
dsmash weak:6-91
dsmash weak2:2-86
dsmash mid:0-50
usmash tip:0-26
usmash mid:0-71
usmash weak:0-999
fsmash tip:0-8
fsmash weak:0-51
dtilt tip:0-192
dtilt weak:0-351
dtilt weak2:0-331
dtilt mid:0-247
**utilt clean**
tip:0-40
weak:0-74
weak2:0-74
mid:0-52
**utilt early**
tip:0-45
weak:0-70
weak2:0-61
mid:0-59
ftilt tip:0-56
weak:3-146
dash tipper:0-68
dash weak:0-165
dash mid:0-75
jab1 tip:18-249
jab1 weak:95-465
counter:0-109
dolphslash ground strong:0-77
ground weak:0-77
air id2:0-174
air id1:0-153
air id0:16-153
sideb 1:0-high percents
neutralb uncharged tip:0-99
mid:0-110
weak:0-116
charged
tip:0-4
mid:0-7
weak:0-9
the percents when bowser can CC falcon's moves
Dair:no
uair clean sour:11-89
uair clean sweet:8-82
uair mid sour:0-147
uair mid sweet:0-122
uair late:Not a true CC
Bair late:39-151
Bair clean:16-84
Late Knee:0-164
Clean Knee:0-42
Nair 1:Inf
Nair 2:0-99
Dsmash hit 1:0-37
dsmash hit 2:0-54
Usmash sweet hit 1:0-51
usmash sour hit 1:inf
usmash hit 2 dam 12 angle 80:0-58
usmash hit 2 dam 13 angle 90:0-42
usmash hit 2 dam 13 kb 128:0-41
fsmash ang_down:0-38
fsmash ang_side:0-34
fsmash ang_up:0-31
dtilt:0-109
utilt:0-58
ftilt ang_down sweet:0-98
ftilt ang_down sour:0-121
ftilt ang_side:13-98
ftilt ang_up sour:13-98
ftilt ang_up sweet 11-89
dash late:starts at 94 and ends at very high percents
dash clean:5-107
jab 1:0-999
jab 2:0-999
gentlemen clean:8-119
gentlemen late:53-181
the inf starts at percents that you wouldn't be alive for
side b uppercut:0-52
side b downpunch:CC is not true
***falcon punch***
Ground dam 23:0-20
ground dam 25:0-15
ground dam 27:0-10
air dam 23:0-14
air dam 25:0-9
air dam 27:0-5

Other CC Charts
the top 8's usmash kill percents on bowser with DI to the right(strong hitbox)
Fox:
BF:105
FD:102
YS:96
FOD:106
DL:119
PS:100
Falco:
BF:152
FD:148
YS:140
FOD:153
DL:170
PS:145
Marth:
BF:121
FD:117
YS:109
FOD:122
DL:139
PS:114
Sheik:
BF:99
FD:95
YS:89
FOD:100
DL:114
PS:93
Puff:
BF:133
FD:129
YS:122
FOD:134
DL:148
PS:126
Peach:
BF:99
FD:96
YS:90
FOD:100
DL:113
PS:93
ICS:
BF:130
FD:126
YS:118
FOD:132
DL:148
PS:123
Falcon:
BF:120
FD:117
YS:110
FOD:121
DL:136
PS:114

Zelda Fair/Bair (Same percent)
zelda fair/bair cc (strong):0-33

Luigi Shoryuken CC (Perfect DI)
BF:117
YS:100
FOD:118
DL:141
PS:107
FD:111

I used Ikneedata (same site that hosts melee lite) and its calculator section
 

Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#7
HOW TO GET INTO THE TURTLE BOY
Bowser Drill - Written By Gasher

Bowser Drill using 20XX

Enable color overlay for
-IASA (Orange) indicator when you can interrupt attack animation
-Perfect wavedash (White) indicates that you did perfect wavedash
-wait (Green) helps you know where you gotta get faster


This will help you see if you are doing Wavedashes right, shows
if you could improve movement and helps combo game because you can train IASA frames.

Set match to time, choose none as time limit
pick Bowser and press start for 3 secs to start solo
Go to yoshis story.

1 - ALWAYS BEFORE THE DRILLS start out by moving around like you usually would in a match for 2 minutes

Core Bowser skills Drill

2 -L-Cancel all Aerials for 2 Minutes
3 -Up-B Out of Shield for 1 Minute
4 -Short hop, then Fullhop. repeat for 1 minute
(wil help you get used to Bowsers jump)
5 -Fortress Hog for 3 Minutes, mixup facing to the Ledge and facing away from it, so you train both
6 -Dashdance from one side of the stage, to the other. 1 Minute
7 -PERFECT Wavedash for 2 Minutes (this is the hardest Bowser tech, because its so different from other chars and hard to get used to)

Drill length ~ 12 Minutes


Advanced - Movement

1 - Perfect Waveland on all Platforms for 3 Minutes
2 - Wavesurf for 3 Minutes
3 - Aerial > Dashback without slow turnaround 1 Minute
4 - KoopaDash for 2 Minutes
5 - Moonwalk out of Wavesurf 2 Minutes
6 - Moonwalk out of Waveland 1 Minute
7 - Ledgedash for 2 Minutes
8 - Act out of Yoshis Ledgehop NIL 3 Minutes (try to get as low amount of green as possible)
9 - Fortress Land for 1 Minute (better to do on BF)

Drill length ~ 18 Minutes

Advanced - Punish Game

1 - Edgecancel all Aerials for 1 Minute
2 - LEDGEcancel nair and bair for 2 Minutes
3 - Pivot Jab for 2 Minutes
4 - Pivot Ftilt for 2 Minutes
5 - Aerial Fortress Interrupt for 1 Minute
6 - Wavesurf moonwalk into dashattack 1 Minute
7 - Wavesurf moonwalk into grab 1 Minute
8 - Wavesurf Moonwalk into Ftilt 1 Minute
9 - Koopa Klaw frameperfect regrabs for 2 Minutes
10 - Koopa Klaw a CPU in training mode for 1 Minute, try around
with the range and try to get the max distance grab
(Helps to get used to the KK sweetspot)
11 - Nair > Jab > Another move (example Nair > Jab > Dsmash, Nair > Jab > Ftilt) without getting green or orange color for 2 Minutes
12 - Jab > Ftilt without orange color for 1 minute
13 - Jab > Utilt without getting orange color for 1 Minute
14 - Waveland > Aerial for 1 Minute

Drill length ~ 19 Minutes


Full Drill length ~ 49 Minutes
Bowser Moonwalk Guide - Also Written By Gasher
Input Dash, cancel the Dash as soon as possible with a Wavedash, this makes you Wavesurf, during the Wavesurf, input Dash AGAINST the direction you are going (note, its must be perfect dashback if you are trying to wavedash forwards and then moonwalk) then do halfcircle back, without touching middle or bottom of the Control stick area.
Beginner's Guide for making a GIF - Chins (me)
What you need to do is set up your hotkeys first. The main hotkeys you will need are some save states/loading states incase you mess up, the pause button which is seen as "Toggle Pause" on newer versions of dolphin. A key for advancing frames and keys to speed up the frame advance. Checked/Unchecked Boxes
>If you already have your dolphin setup for your PC you're good. Only thing you should check on is to change the amount of controller ports there are. Unless you want to have it so you can control multiple characters.
>Check TAS input under movies, its on the top of the main dolphin menu.
>Same thing with Frame Counter and Show Input Display
>Select Melee/20XX and go to movies and click Start recording input. Pause once the game CSS loads up
>Use your frame advance key and the TAS Input to move your cursor/character.
>After doing something in your movie, pause it with your hotkey Toggle Pause button and click Export Recording under movies.
>The movie is now finished, you can now play it in dolphin by selecting play input recording in movies >to record it with your capture software simply play it over the finished TAS that is now playing. Enjoy.
ALTERNATIVELY YOU CAN USE 20XX SAVE STATES
 
Last edited:

Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#8

Copkechins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
12
#10
Im thinking of using Dash Attack as a way to beat Yoshi Egg spam.
Bowser's DA hitbox is 10-17 and yoshi egglay hitbox is 18. It beats it frame wise. But no clue if it clashes, trades, or outright beats egg toss. Can someone help me with this? It'll help a lot in the MU.
 

Synnett

GCC Hoarder
Premium
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
1,553
Location
Montreal, QC
#11
Im thinking of using Dash Attack as a way to beat Yoshi Egg spam.
Bowser's DA hitbox is 10-17 and yoshi egglay hitbox is 18. It beats it frame wise. But no clue if it clashes, trades, or outright beats egg toss. Can someone help me with this? It'll help a lot in the MU.
It's pretty jank. You can break the eggs, but depending on the angle and where the egg hits you it can poke too.
 
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