The First Party general support thread

[UserKev]

relevance doesnt matter in smash

Relevance does matter. Otherwise the characters that did get in, wouldn't have got in if it wasn't for extreme fan outcry.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

It seems like no matter how many characters get confirmed, people will always fall back to the same counterarguments that would apply to existing fighters because they "didn't count".

Doomguy will never get in because he's too violent, just forget Snake and Bayonetta, THEIR violence is too cartoony. No, Doomguy can't have guns while Joker can, because his is actually a toy gun in real life while the BFG 9000 and plasma rifle are too gritty for Smash. Geno is third party and irrelevant, but Banjo-Kazooie is a SPECIAL case because, I dunno, they were the protagonists while Geno is a side character.

The ONE counterargument that seems to have been silenced once and for all is the issue of size, but that's probably because Andross and Mother Brain don't have that many fans to challenge it in the first place.

 

[Arthur97]

Let's be fair, Doomguy's violence is on a whole other level compared to Bayonetta and especially Snake.

 

[Quillion]

It seems like no matter how many characters get confirmed, people will always fall back to the same counterarguments that would apply to existing fighters because they "didn't count".

Doomguy will never get in because he's too violent, just forget Snake and Bayonetta, THEIR violence is too cartoony. No, Doomguy can't have guns while Joker can, because his is actually a toy gun in real life while the BFG 9000 and plasma rifle are too gritty for Smash. Geno is third party and irrelevant, but Banjo-Kazooie is a SPECIAL case because, I dunno, they were the protagonists while Geno is a side character.

The ONE counterargument that seems to have been silenced once and for all is the issue of size, but that's probably because Andross and Mother Brain don't have that many fans to challenge it in the first place.

What about the "spinoff character" argument? I use that all the time against Waluigi and Geno.

 

[GoodGrief741]

What about the "spinoff character" argument? I use that all the time against Waluigi and Geno.

Dr. Mario, Joker, Daisy.

 

[Dinoman96]

Dr. Mario, Joker, Daisy.

Dr. Mario and especially Daisy aren't really great counter examples because they're merely clone characters that didn't take up much development. Daisy (who technically HAS appeared in mainline Mario games anyways) is quite literally just an alternate costume for Peach with different cosmetic animations that just happens to have her own character slot on the CSS. Characters like Geno and Waluigi on the other hand would actually require full investment because they can't be simple clones of anyone.

As for Joker, he's the main character (whereas Geno and Waluigi are only supporting characters) of the most successful and recent game in a spinoff series that overtook its parent series in popularity. So again, not the best argument.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Dr. Mario, Joker, Daisy.

And then the argument gets appended to "No spinoff characters that can be unique, clones only. Also can we really call Persona a spinoff at this point, Atlus seems to treat it as their main series while leaving SMT in the dust, and if you think about it, Super Mario Bros is technically a spinoff of Donkey Kong, but it grew so important that dismissing it as a spinoff seems wrong, so Persona should be treated as mainline."

Point is, I'm tired of characters being dismissed for reasons that have had multiple exceptions because said exceptions weren't "strong enough" (Bayonetta is okay to put in Smash despite subjecting a sexy angel to wooden horse bondage torture, but Doomguy's violence is too much for a Nintendo game because blood is less acceptable than sex in Japan's rating system or something)

We need another Ridley, someone who can decisively shatter a perceived barrier so we can focus on the one thing that really matters; how fun would they be to play if they were translated to Smash.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

irrelevant Banjo.

The salt is strong with this one.

A lot of people, myself included, still consider Banjo as part of the Nintendo family. I don't really consider him as a third party character.

We need another Ridley, someone who can decisively shatter a perceived barrier so we can focus on the one thing that really matters; how fun would they be to play if they were translated to Smash.

I feel like Waluigi is the next Ridley. Both are/were highly requested characters who have been cut short of Smash at least three times. There was a ton of fan outcry after their respective deconfirmations (at the time). There are/were many detractors who try to build up poor arguments against both of them. Ridley broke the "TOO BIG" barrier and Waluigi could hopefully break the spinoff character that hasn't been in a main title game barrier. Adding on the ATs can't be promoted within the same game barrier too.

 

[UserKev]

Now that I think about it, Waluigi is aesthetically like Ridley. The speculation won't be as tense but Waluigi's reveal will be changeful, speculation won't be the same.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I really hope Waluigi gets in. I want to consider him a lock, but honestly he's had a rough time lately. He's the subject of death threats harassment to Sakurai, he's an AT, he's never been in a mainline game. But at the same time he's always been a fan favorite. Idk, I could see it going either way and I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm still hopeful.

 

[Waluigi99]

I made an account just because of this thread, been lurking for a while now. This thread definitely captures the general feelings I’ve been having towards the path of DLC in Ultimate. I’m worried that there won’t be any first party DLC characters, and a bunch of characters I don’t even know will continue to make it into the game. The DLC for me has been pretty disappointing so far, except for Banjo (who’s inclusion got me to go get Rare Replay and now I love the series). I’m a big Waluigi guy, as you can probably tell. He’s all I wanted for Smash Ultimate character-wise. Seeing the hive-mind of corporate boot lickers complain about “won’t you ever be grateful for what you already got” really grinds my gears. Smash is a product, and consumers have the right to demand/ask for what they like in said product.
Coming from /v/ this place seems to at least have some genuine support for first party characters instead literal-who’s. Here’s hoping Waluigi and more make it in for future DLC!

 

[Wigglerman]

I doubt relevance has as much clout as people are claiming. When Smash 64 hit, how 'relevant' was Ness or even Captain Falcon? In Melee how relevant was G&W or Icies? In Brawl, how relevant was Wolf at that point? So on and so forth. While those characters are Nintendo classics, they weren't exactly high tier characters in the mainstream at that time.


'Relevance' is a weak argument. Because what is 'relevant' to us, the players, isn't exactly what Nintendo deems to be such.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I doubt relevance has as much clout as people are claiming. When Smash 64 hit, how 'relevant' was Ness or even Captain Falcon? In Melee how relevant was G&W or Icies? In Brawl, how relevant was Wolf at that point? So on and so forth. While those characters are Nintendo classics, they weren't exactly high tier characters in the mainstream at that time.


'Relevance' is a weak argument. Because what is 'relevant' to us, the players, isn't exactly what Nintendo deems to be such.

To be fair, F-Zero was one of the SNES’s first titles, and X was in development for the N64 when Smash 64 came out. Also, they WERE originally gonna make Mother 3 (EarthBound, Ness’s game is Mother 2 in Japan) on Nintendo 64, which is why Lucas was at one point planned for Melee but ultimately scrapped.

for everything else tho I agree

 

[Guynamednelson]

and X was in development for the N64 when Smash 64 came out

F-Zero X was almost a year old by the time Smash 64 came out.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

F-Zero X was almost a year old by the time Smash 64 came out.

Oh whoops, was mistaken

but the Mother 3 thing is true, just look up “Earthbound 64”

 

[Arthur97]

I don't think Waluigi will be game changing. He's another Mario character. spinoff or otherwise. Besides, if you count Yoshi as a separate series, it technically is a spinoff of Mario.

 

[Wigglerman]

I don't think Waluigi will be game changing. He's another Mario character. spinoff or otherwise. Besides, if you count Yoshi as a separate series, it technically is a spinoff of Mario.

What if Mario is a spin-off of Yoshi? :o After all, canonically it would seem Mario and Luigi were just babies and the Yoshis saved their bacons so they could become the heros we know them now. *mind warp*

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I made an account just because of this thread, been lurking for a while now. This thread definitely captures the general feelings I’ve been having towards the path of DLC in Ultimate. I’m worried that there won’t be any first party DLC characters, and a bunch of characters I don’t even know will continue to make it into the game. The DLC for me has been pretty disappointing so far, except for Banjo (who’s inclusion got me to go get Rare Replay and now I love the series). I’m a big Waluigi guy, as you can probably tell. He’s all I wanted for Smash Ultimate character-wise. Seeing the hive-mind of corporate boot lickers complain about “won’t you ever be grateful for what you already got” really grinds my gears. Smash is a product, and consumers have the right to demand/ask for what they like in said product.
Coming from /v/ this place seems to at least have some genuine support for first party characters instead literal-who’s. Here’s hoping Waluigi and more make it in for future DLC!

I think the general consensus is that they'll finish out the fighter pass with one more 3rd party, and then the remaining DLC characters will be 1st party (or pretty-much-first-party)...I really hope it's true. While I appreciate these character's getting in, I play this game because I like the Nintendo characters in it. For anyone who doesn't play much outside of Nintendo, it's not very appealing.

 

[Sebas22]

Coming from /v/ this place seems to at least have some genuine support for first party characters instead literal-who’s. Here’s hoping Waluigi and more make it in for future DLC!

> He's from /v/
> He wants Waluigi
You experienced hell, didn't you? Don't worry, you're safe here.

 

[Wigglerman]

To be fair, F-Zero was one of the SNES’s first titles, and X was in development for the N64 when Smash 64 came out. Also, they WERE originally gonna make Mother 3 (EarthBound, Ness’s game is Mother 2 in Japan) on Nintendo 64, which is why Lucas was at one point planned for Melee but ultimately scrapped.

for everything else tho I agree

Oh for sure, I'm not doubting F-Zero's prescience in the Nintendo landscape. But even with F-Zero being released somewhat recently on the 64 by that point (A game that didn't sell particularly well when compared to what Nintendo fans would consider other big Nintendo staples like Mario, Zelda, or even Star Fox), the series and character aren't exactly the most well known Nintendo characters. Anecdotally, many kids growing up in my area didn't know what an F-Zero was or who Captain Falcon was in Smash. I'm one who had no idea who Ness was.

I'd go so far as to say just because a game comes out recently doesn't make them relevant either. I'll take a low blow and say just look at Bubsy. Had a game just a couple years back. Still not relevant at all.

However, that is all in the case of our public opinions. Nintendo felt Ness and Captain Falcon, G&W and Icies were relevant to them and I suppose, in the end, that's all that actually matters in the end game.

 

[fogbadge]

Relevance does matter. Otherwise the characters that did get in, wouldn't have got in if it wasn't for extreme fan outcry.

popularity is what got most of them in

 

[Wigglerman]

popularity is what got most of them in

Popularity or simply who Sakurai wanted and Nintendo allowed. Popularity definitely has more clout as Sakurai seems to be aiming for as much fan demand as he can within reason. If we go on the 'relevancy' argument...how relevant is K. Rool these days? It was absolutely zero as he barely was seen in ANYTHING. Same could be argued for Ridly as he's barely been in anything recently to my knowledge (Then again, Metroid isn't exactly an annual release like Mario or Zelda so this is to be expected).

Those were popular picks and demands. So as you said, popularity won out. Not relevancy to the gaming market today. Joker, however, is an example of what I feel is a 'relevancy' pick.

 

[fogbadge]

Popularity or simply who Sakurai wanted and Nintendo allowed. Popularity definitely has more clout as Sakurai seems to be aiming for as much fan demand as he can within reason. If we go on the 'relevancy' argument...how relevant is K. Rool these days? It was absolutely zero as he barely was seen in ANYTHING. Same could be argued for Ridly as he's barely been in anything recently to my knowledge (Then again, Metroid isn't exactly an annual release like Mario or Zelda so this is to be expected).

Those were popular picks and demands. So as you said, popularity won out. Not relevancy to the gaming market today. Joker, however, is an example of what I feel is a 'relevancy' pick.

ridley was in the last couple metroids and k.rool was mia for a decade, just trying to help with the info

 

[UserKev]

What if Mario is a spin-off of Yoshi? :o After all, canonically it would seem Mario and Luigi were just babies and the Yoshis saved their bacons so they could become the heros we know them now. *mind warp*

All jokes aside, Yoshi's Island is technically the prequel to Super Mario Bros.

 

[Waluigi99]

> He's from /v/
> He wants Waluigi
You experienced hell, didn't you? Don't worry, you're safe here.

Yeah /v/ is a ****hole. But it's my ****hole. I honestly don't know why I keep going back. They really don't like any of the games I play like Halo, Mario, and Pokemon (that's what /vp/ is for and that place is just porn so no thanks). But you know what they say, "once you're here, you're here forever". And they were right. I guess I keep going back because they are actually funny people there, and at one point there was original content. Being a Waluigi fan on /v/ isn't as angering as it is disappointing.
When people discuss DLC, they almost exclusively talk third party (all of which to a Nintendo fan were exceedingly obscure like Dante, Travis Touchdown, Reimu, etc), when people bring up first parties they mostly get **** on like crazy. Waluigi is hardly brought up at all and when he is, he is mostly used as an example of a "meme character" that the "normies (cleaner version because I can't talk like a /v/tard here) like" and therefore shouldn't be considered outright. I think the thing that typifies /v/ in a nutshell is that they are THE definition of contrarians for the sake of being contrarian. They hated Halo back in its heyday, they mock Mario as "bing-bing wahoo", etc. They hate things just because they're popular. But there are a few other Waluigi fans, including myself, that can be found from time to there. Sorry if that's a bit off-topic, I thought I'd just share what it's like being a smash fan in general on /v/.

On first parties, I generally think there's still a ton of potential, even if I'd be just fine with only Waluigi getting in if it happened. Other characters I like are Bandanna Dee, Geno (third party or first?) even though I was too young to grow up playing SMRPG, Skull Kid (I couldn't figure out what to do when I got Majora's Mask 3D on my 3DS, I was lost), Springman/Ribbongirl (never played ARMS but I was hyped when it came out, just can't afford it right now), and more. I think Smash is a Nintendo Crossover first and foremost, and it should stay that way. Honestly though, I'm not against third parties, and in fact I think some like Banjo and Sonic should return every game from now on. The others are guests, and should remain guests. Guests may come and go, but they never out-stay their welcome. To say that we're at the bottom of the barrel for first party characters is nonsense. I think Zelda, Pokemon, and Mario all have lots of unique reps and potential that is often overlooked by Sakurai. Sceptile, Chandelure, Kabutops, (think of it, a scythe fighter!) Geno, Waluigi, Mallow, Skull Kid, Midna, any of the 4 divine beast operators from Breath of the Wild, would all be good choices.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Behold, the Cyclops!

 

[fogbadge]

Geno (third party or first?)

3rd

 

[Diddy Kong]

I doubt relevance has as much clout as people are claiming. When Smash 64 hit, how 'relevant' was Ness or even Captain Falcon? In Melee how relevant was G&W or Icies? In Brawl, how relevant was Wolf at that point? So on and so forth. While those characters are Nintendo classics, they weren't exactly high tier characters in the mainstream at that time.


'Relevance' is a weak argument. Because what is 'relevant' to us, the players, isn't exactly what Nintendo deems to be such.

Ness was quite relevant back then, Earth Bound was a fan favorite RPG on the SNES with a strong cult following, and the developers helped with Smash all the time. Ness makes as much sense to be in as Kirby. Captain Falcon was from one of the most popular SNES racing games outside of Mario Kart and was lucky to get in, because he could use a moveset from the original concept characters of Smash when it was still called Dragon King. Wolf appeared in Star Fox Assault on GCN and was playable for the first time there, and actually joined up with Star Fox for the first time in that game.

All where quite relevant.

It's actually quite a consistent merit for including characters throughout all of Smash history. Outside of the obvious retro characters of course.

King K.Rool for example only got in because of MASSIVE fan demand. And might very well return for the next Donkey Kong game, whenever they decide to make one. They sure take their time with this though.....

 

[Curious Villager]

Ness was quite relevant back then, Earth Bound was a fan favorite RPG on the SNES with a strong cult following,

Didn't that happen after his inclusion in Smash?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Didn't that happen after his inclusion in Smash?

Maybe? I'm not sure. The game heavily inspired Pokémon however, so that's also something to take in mind.

 

[Curious Villager]

Maybe? I'm not sure. The game heavily inspired Pokémon however, so that's also something to take in mind.

If I recall, a number of the dev's behind Pokemon also worked on Earthbound in the past, so that might be where most of their overlap came from.

 

[Arthur97]

Ness was quite relevant back then, Earth Bound was a fan favorite RPG on the SNES with a strong cult following, and the developers helped with Smash all the time. Ness makes as much sense to be in as Kirby. Captain Falcon was from one of the most popular SNES racing games outside of Mario Kart and was lucky to get in, because he could use a moveset from the original concept characters of Smash when it was still called Dragon King. Wolf appeared in Star Fox Assault on GCN and was playable for the first time there, and actually joined up with Star Fox for the first time in that game.

All where quite relevant.

It's actually quite a consistent merit for including characters throughout all of Smash history. Outside of the obvious retro characters of course.

King K.Rool for example only got in because of MASSIVE fan demand. And might very well return for the next Donkey Kong game, whenever they decide to make one. They sure take their time with this though.....

Thing about cult classics and followings, don't those things usually take time to form?

Either way, about the DK game production, would you rather they make it annually? They didn't even make NSMB yearly and people still complained.

 

[Quillion]

I personally would love to see more retro characters over new pups. Retro characters are a good way for Smash to exercise creativity within limitations, and they're a good way to promote the "left behind" side of Nintendo.

New characters like Spring Man and Rex are just marketing gimmicks. I'd rather wait for them to prove themselves first.

 

[Sysreq]

I personally would love to see more retro characters over new pups. Retro characters are a good way for Smash to exercise creativity within limitations, and they're a good way to promote the "left behind" side of Nintendo.

New characters like Spring Man and Rex are just marketing gimmicks. I'd rather wait for them to prove themselves first.

Marketing what? ARMS and XB2 came out in 2017. They don't need advertisement. If you were talking about Byleth and Akira Howard then I guess I could see that.

 

[UserKev]

One retro per game, otherwise the appeal is ruined. I think next priority should go to more "One shot" but obvious additions and unforgettable, Skull Kid, Midna, etc and closely Pokey. The priority would revolutionize speculation. Retros are already priority, honestly and technically they even exist as characters who's IP has been long since completed or is in hiatus if not vaulted, served as a one time project.

On the topic of retro characters tho, my picks are Wart and considerably Cranky Kong.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

One retro per game, otherwise the appeal is ruined. I think next priority should go to more "One shot" but obvious additions and unforgettable, Skull Kid, Midna, etc and closely Pokey. The priority would revolutionize speculation. Retros are already priority, honestly and technically they even exist as characters who's IP has been long since completed or is in hiatus if not vaulted, served as a one time project.

On the topic of retro characters tho, my picks are Wart and considerably Cranky Kong.

Agreed. Too many retroes just become boring and unoriginal. Coincidentally that's also how I feel about 3rd party characters. I just want each DLC character to have as little in common as possible. Having a broad variety of characters is the best way to please the most people.

 

[Wigglerman]

Ness was quite relevant back then, Earth Bound was a fan favorite RPG on the SNES with a strong cult following, and the developers helped with Smash all the time. Ness makes as much sense to be in as Kirby. Captain Falcon was from one of the most popular SNES racing games outside of Mario Kart and was lucky to get in, because he could use a moveset from the original concept characters of Smash when it was still called Dragon King. Wolf appeared in Star Fox Assault on GCN and was playable for the first time there, and actually joined up with Star Fox for the first time in that game.

All where quite relevant.

It's actually quite a consistent merit for including characters throughout all of Smash history. Outside of the obvious retro characters of course.

King K.Rool for example only got in because of MASSIVE fan demand. And might very well return for the next Donkey Kong game, whenever they decide to make one. They sure take their time with this though.....

Was he? Was he really though?

Earthbound (AKA Mother 2) was released for Super Nintendo in 1994. Smash 64 released in 1999. So that is a 5 year gap, which compared to how we know the industry and news coverage and release schedules, was AGES in 90's time. Ness could possibly have been still relevant in Japan but State side? It sold 140,000 units in the USA. That character, let alone that franchise, wasn't even a blip on the American gaming radar (And I'd wager globally outside of Japan) and still hasn't been until recent years. Ness only garnered any real semblance of relevancy BECAUSE of Smash 64. I'd argue the same for Captain Falcon. His own series wasn't the biggest hit even in the USA where the franchise is most popular and being in Smash is what actually got his name around a lot more and fostered his fan base, not unlike Ness. And I agree, Falcon probably 'only made it' because he happened to fit the original skeleton for the characters in Smash's original iteration which is probably why he doesn't fight the way people think he should. But that isn't here nor there. I still wouldn't deem Falcon 'relevant' even at the time of Smash due to the generally poor sales of his franchise (Which only ever declined with every release after F-Zero on Snes) which is pretty much why the series still is in total silence today despite Smash keeping Falcon's name fresh in people's minds.

Wolf being 'relevant' even in his own franchise is dubious. People may know who he is in passing if they played Star Fox 64 or the eventual Gamecube installments but he is hardly an integral character to the franchise overall. And it isn't a bash towards him as I love the entire Star Fox cast and Wolf being a recurring heel is great but he only ever serves as a brief 'mini boss' littered through the stages. Wolf is and always has been a great choice for Smash and has had a lot of care taken to make him as different from Fox and Falco as possible while remaining recognizably similar. I'd deem relevancy of a character partially in how often a character shows up + how easily remembered they are when asked about their respective franchise. Wolf would probably be middle of the pack in terms of characters people would ramble off from that series. You'd get the whole Star Fox crew first, Krystal, General Pepper, Andross, Rob (Their version of him) and then you'd likely get to the Star Wolf crew with Wolf likely being first mentioned on said list. He's an important character we've had people demanding Slippy or Peppy before Wolf was mentioned the majority of the time Brawl was in the works, from the conversations I recall being a part of.

Again, not bashing any of the obscure or 'surprise' picks but I'd not deem the above 3 'relevant' at the time of their inclusion.

And I think we can agree we don't really need to discuss why Rob, icies, G&W and Duck Hunt were 'irrelevant' at the time of their inclusion. Again, not their significance to the company, simply relevance to the industry (And the player base) as a whole at the time of each of their inclusions.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

If you're tired of third party characters, the solution is to look west more instead of focusing on just the Japanese characters that Smaah seems bent on focusing on.

But the west doesn't have any good characters compared to Japan.

The salt is strong with this one.
A lot of people, myself included, still consider Banjo as part of the Nintendo family. I don't really consider him as a third party character.

Banjo hasn't had a game on a Nintendo console in nearly fifteen years (Banjo Pilot on the GBA, 2005). He's a Microsoft character now and nothing will change that. Banjo really isn't as big as you think he is. He was just part of the short-lived animal mascot platformer fad of the 90s, like Bubsy, but at least Bubsy still gets games.

 

[3DSNinja]

The West downer have good characters? What?
Here's a list:
Crash,Shantae, Doom Slayer, Shovel Knight, Dovahkinn, Master Chief, Spyro, Gordon Freeman, Heavy, Kratos.
That's just a few characters.

 

[StrawHatX]

My choices would be:

New Series Representation:
Golden Sun: Isaac
Advance Wars: Andy
Rhythm Heaven: Chorus Kids

Series Already Represented:
Super Mario: Waluigi
Zelda: Skull Kid
Kirby: Bandana Waddle Dee
Donkey Kong: Dixie Kong
Star Fox: Krystal
Earthbound: Porky
Xenoblade: Rex
WarioWare: Ashley