The effect of changing the number of stocks per match on PT

[T-block]

There has been discussion lately about whether moving to 2-stock matches would be beneficial for Brawl as a whole (thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308170)

How would this affect our character? Overall, would it be a buff or a nerf?

What about moving to 1-stock?

 

[CoonTail]

I do not like the idea of 2 stock, it would make swiching more difficult and the punishment A LOT scarier. In 2 stock if you get gimped as Ivy while trying to switch when fighting MK wtf are you gonna do. Against a campier matchup or hell just one you really need to run a lot of one poke in such as squirtle vs Snake, a 2 stock match makes this a much larger pain due to 3 pokes. Potential double switches to get to squirtle sounds aweful and you'll have to do it if you only have 2 stocks.

I dunno I could explain better but I'm not really up for it, after my last tourny my surrounding community has me pretty unhappy with the game, not due to MK or rule issues but mainly due to the lack of acknowledgement of the real issue with brawl. Plain and simple no one cares anymore, they don't care about you or an upset you make, they don't care about helping new players ghet into the game or hype at all, and they just don't care about anyone who is a "random" at all. Im really tired of making huge strides and getting noted by some of the few great players who still act like its 09'-10' (Jash <3) then the rest not even noticing or saying "Who are you?/ Jash how did you almost lose to that).

Thats how I feel about the 2 stock change, people need to realize changes like this are not going to change the *******s playing the game and ruining it for the world.....

**EDIT** I have seriously been thinking about changing region or even country due to this figuring I have a lot of free time now since I only have a job and no school. I wanna play smash in Japan

 

[Steeler]

i have thought a lot about this actually but i just assumed that no one would be interested in trying something new...

1 stock would be absolutely amazing, 2 stock would be beneficial in most matchups.

i have considered a tourney where you play to best of 5 or 7 in 1 stock matches, and strike from all legal stages until there is only 1. this would be p amazing imo. but the game is dead here and no one cares lol. maybe that is the problem coontail? apathy with the game.

 

[CoonTail]

It really seems that way steeler no one wants hype anymore, no one really cares enough to ban MK, everyone hates the BBR hates some-else.

I'm just so tired of it, this isn't a gaming community anymore it's a ****ing episode of degrassi

 

[T-block]

Umm...okay this is not the place to whine about the community. Stay on-topic please.

I agree that one-stock would make PT much better, but I think two-stock actually makes him worse. With one stock, we can completely remove the forced switch on death factor, but with two-stock, it's still there, and now we have less room to adjust the usage of each character.

With three stocks, it's easy to use Squirtle 2/3 of the time. With two stocks, it's much harder to get that usage, no?

 

[CoonTail]

Thats how I felt T-block, but we are within topic this topic does encompass the move to 2 stock matches. So are we that wrong to talk about the reason they are being brought about. I will no argue I ranted a bit to far off topic, but the fact stand the only reason 2 stock matches are being instituted is as an attempt to revive the community.

But the community can't be revived if the people within seem to like it better off next to dead.....

 

[T-block]

Bring it to the social thread if you want - this thread is for discussing how PT as a character is affected by a change in the number of stocks.

 

[Steeler]

the question is... are there more matchups where you need to be one poke or more where you really need to AVOID one?

i think a lot really depends on the player. is one of your guys that much better or one that much worse?

 

[Geenareeno]

In matchups like ddd where you want to use zard and squirtle 2 stock would be great but for falco you get ****ed because if you win first stock you have to manage to switch twice which isn't happening unless you're on rc.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It all depends on the matchup. If two Pokémon are at least marginally useful, I'd say it would help. If only one is useful, it would definitely hurt.

I think it would help against all of PT's worst matchups, though. Meta Knight, Marth, and, like, King Dedede or something.

We'd have to get more creative with switching opportunities and camping, for sure.

 

[Scatz]

In essence, it would push our winning/losing matchups further depending on whether we can use at least 2/3 pokemon efficiently. What matchups force us to use only 1 pokemon?

 

[Aposl]

I don't care about the stock count, people need to grow up and realize that the game is what it is. Basically IMO this wont change anything for PT mains unless we get better. If I have a lead at the beginning of the match against MK as Charizard but end up losing the match. I blame myself, not the character, not the amount of stocks. I need to get better. I don't want it to become easier I wan to earn it and I am hungry to do so!

Technically though 1 stock would be kind of ****, but that's just not smash, neither is 2. We could do things but we would have to change what we have been for so long its not worth it IMO.

 

[Scatz]

I don't understand why people have so much animosity towards changing rules. We just never accepted change and tried to go with the closest comparison to melee. It's our own damn fault we never experimented with rules to see what's truly beneficial to the overall metagame and community.

 

[CoonTail]

What my major issue with this is that changing the amount of stocks only really affects two characters one way more than the other, and those two are Lucario and PT.

Lucario does not change much overall he just cannot max out his aura based on stock, but for us PT mains this is asking us to reformulate our entire formula for matchups which I find incredibly stupid. While we are all here having to figure wtf to do with this everyone else besides lucario mains feel nothing. This change forces more work out of the lucario and PT mains than anyone else which is kinda bull****.

As if it is not hard enough maining our char is now they are essentially making us go back to drawing board.......*sigh* like I have said before the issue isnt the format it's the players and MK people need to understand that and stop pushing things that won't change the major issues.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Ice ****.

You're exaggerating a little.

A lower stock count is GOOD.

Maybe now people who start out with Squirtly will actually learn to play as Ivysaur.

 

[Scatz]

What my major issue with this is that changing the amount of stocks only really affects two characters one way more than the other, and those two are Lucario and PT.

Lucario does not change much overall he just cannot max out his aura based on stock, but for us PT mains this is asking us to reformulate our entire formula for matchups which I find incredibly stupid. While we are all here having to figure wtf to do with this everyone else besides lucario mains feel nothing. This change forces more work out of the lucario and PT mains than anyone else which is kinda bull****.

As if it is not hard enough maining our char is now they are essentially making us go back to drawing board.......*sigh* like I have said before the issue isnt the format it's the players and MK people need to understand that and stop pushing things that won't change the major issues.

Lucario mains already explained that this helps him out more than hurts him. No one isn't trying to stomp all over the previous work and make you redo everything. Technically, you're not starting over because now you just have to take out the 3rd pokemon that's not efficient in the MU. This gives you a boost since fatigue will be a weaker issue, but then it'll increase the MUs that eliminate 2/3s of PT's efficiency. You get pros and cons out of everything.

You're over exaggerating this, and letting your anger get in the way of your judgement. If MK were to be banned, wouldn't MK mains have to go back to the drawing board or quit the game? Change won't always be beneficial to everyone and everything.

 

[Steeler]

It all depends on the matchup. If two Pokémon are at least marginally useful, I'd say it would help. If only one is useful, it would definitely hurt.

I think it would help against all of PT's worst matchups, though. Meta Knight, Marth, and, like, King Dedede or something.

We'd have to get more creative with switching opportunities and camping, for sure.

p much this. i would be willing to pick brawl back up to try this.

 

[T-block]

lol I like Scatz

Agreed that in matchups where we rely heavily on one pokemon, this will hurt.

Let's take a look at the other scenarios.

In matchups where two are usable and one wants to be avoided, does this really benefit us? Maybe if we're aiming to do one stock each pokemon, as this negates the need to switch at all, but isn't that a naive way of thinking about it? Even minimal switch usage can very easily allow you to use 2/3 of the pokemon, and with 3 stocks, we're able to use our better one twice as much.

In matchups where all three are usable, I can't see much of a difference. I'm tempted to say the more stocks the better, as it gives us more room to manipulate our usage as we want.

Looking at it from another perspective, our pokemon are gimped relatively easily. If the opponent is not easily gimped, do we gain or lose in this regard from moving to two stocks, assuming we move to a bo5 set? Obviously if things remain bo3, we lose out here. But consider that in a 3-stock game, losing one stock to an early gimp often means you've lost the game against an equal opponent who can't be gimped back. If things are bo5, however, the significance of one stock increases within the game, but the significance of the game itself decreases within the set. They probably cancel out here.

Yet another perspective... PT tends to do well on a variety of stages. A change to a 2-stock bo5 would be good here, as it means more stages played in a set.

As an aside, I think this change would also affect Bowser. One-stock would buff Bowser by quite a bit imo.

 

[Kantrip]

ZSS is buffed because she has her armor pieces for a larger portion of the match.

Ice Climbers, in the current metagame, are buffed by this change as well. Considering the difficulty of getting a grab and performing the CG without mistakes, lowering the number of times you must pull it off per match makes it easier for the Ice Climbers to win this match. With 2 stocks, it would only take 2 grabs to win. If the set size is lengthened to compensate for the lower stocks, however, this won't change the Ice Climbers because they will need to win more games anyways. Thus, more grabs.

Lucario is buffed because his aura doesn't screw him over when he has a significant lead. If he's losing by enough for his full aura to take effect, he's going to lose anyways. If he does start to make the comeback, the aura buff lessens anyways, so this just makes it EASIER for him to come back.

PT I believe is also buffed by this. For matchups where you'd rather ignore Ivysaur, you can easily do so without having to switch at all. Start as Charizard, do as much as you can do, and then lay the hurt down with Squirtle after you die.

Ice, you're overreacting a little bit, don't you think? Lowering the stock count by one does not make you relearn PT from scratch at all. Everything still works how it did before the stock change, all you have to do is change your order. If that means starting as charizard instead of squirtle, that's fine. The in-game mechanics are still the same after that.

Also, hi PTs

 

[CoonTail]

You all stand correct I am overreacting a bit, but it is mainly due to changing the way we have played brawl to shape the metagame in order to fix problems that will not be fixed this way. Changing brawl to 2 stocks will not add more hype because as I've said 02397490347 times the only hype blantantly comes from nationals and non MK finals.

2 stocks does nothing besides shorten the game and leave room for a slip up or error to be a much bigger worry. I mean honestly at this point it is kinda staring us in the face, we either get rid of MK or the game is going to die. I live in ny/nj so here are my views from basically the most dominant region in brawl for those of you that have absolutely no idea what the ny/nj tourny scene is like and I will use LIRR (Long Island Revival Regional) as an example. From the start of the tourny you had Anti already putting FB posts about how boring this tourny was, You had ADHD watching m2k or anti play and just state how ******** MK is. You had M2K sleeping on the floor then waking up randomly attempting to complain his way onto a setup for friendly's. Nairo was sleeping every oppourtunity he got and grand finals had to be finished at someone else's house.......There was no hype no care just the "randoms"
watching higher level players no care and thus suck the hype out.
Honestly the top level players are bored and will not add to hype, hype is only going to come from MK being banned and top level players having to use characters that require WORK along with having margins of error unlike MK. Then they have to pay more attention, work harder, and actually feel a win.

2 stocks doesn't add hype since the match is half way done after first stock, MK still being legal doesnt add hype because it's impossible for him to lose if he gets a lead, nothing is going to add hype unless you rip out the bore factor that is MK along with getting higher level players to care.

So my problem here is with the reaosning behind instituting 2 stock matches in the first place and I apologize for acting like it hindered PT because it really doesn't. Instead this idea hinders the community from solving it's issues instead of implementing new rules that do not fix a single damn issue that is causing this game to slope into the crapper the way it is.

 

[T-block]

ZSS is buffed because she has her armor pieces for a larger portion of the match.

Ice Climbers, in the current metagame, are buffed by this change as well. Considering the difficulty of getting a grab and performing the CG without mistakes, lowering the number of times you must pull it off per match makes it easier for the Ice Climbers to win this match. With 2 stocks, it would only take 2 grabs to win. If the set size is lengthened to compensate for the lower stocks, however, this won't change the Ice Climbers because they will need to win more games anyways. Thus, more grabs.

Lucario is buffed because his aura doesn't screw him over when he has a significant lead. If he's losing by enough for his full aura to take effect, he's going to lose anyways. If he does start to make the comeback, the aura buff lessens anyways, so this just makes it EASIER for him to come back.

PT I believe is also buffed by this. For matchups where you'd rather ignore Ivysaur, you can easily do so without having to switch at all. Start as Charizard, do as much as you can do, and then lay the hurt down with Squirtle after you die.

Ice, you're overreacting a little bit, don't you think? Lowering the stock count by one does not make you relearn PT from scratch at all. Everything still works how it did before the stock change, all you have to do is change your order. If that means starting as charizard instead of squirtle, that's fine. The in-game mechanics are still the same after that.

Also, hi PTs

You clearly don't understand PT very well =P

You all stand correct I am overreacting a bit, but it is mainly due to changing the way we have played brawl to shape the metagame in order to fix problems that will not be fixed this way. Changing brawl to 2 stocks will not add more hype because as I've said 02397490347 times the only hype blantantly comes from nationals and non MK finals.

2 stocks does nothing besides shorten the game and leave room for a slip up or error to be a much bigger worry. I mean honestly at this point it is kinda staring us in the face, we either get rid of MK or the game is going to die. I live in ny/nj so here are my views from basically the most dominant region in brawl for those of you that have absolutely no idea what the ny/nj tourny scene is like and I will use LIRR (Long Island Revival Regional) as an example. From the start of the tourny you had Anti already putting FB posts about how boring this tourny was, You had ADHD watching m2k or anti play and just state how ******** MK is. You had M2K sleeping on the floor then waking up randomly attempting to complain his way onto a setup for friendly's. Nairo was sleeping every oppourtunity he got and grand finals had to be finished at someone else's house.......There was no hype no care just the "randoms"
watching higher level players no care and thus suck the hype out.
Honestly the top level players are bored and will not add to hype, hype is only going to come from MK being banned and top level players having to use characters that require WORK along with having margins of error unlike MK. Then they have to pay more attention, work harder, and actually feel a win.

2 stocks doesn't add hype since the match is half way done after first stock, MK still being legal doesnt add hype because it's impossible for him to lose if he gets a lead, nothing is going to add hype unless you rip out the bore factor that is MK along with getting higher level players to care.

So my problem here is with the reaosning behind instituting 2 stock matches in the first place and I apologize for acting like it hindered PT because it really doesn't. Instead this idea hinders the community from solving it's issues instead of implementing new rules that do not fix a single damn issue that is causing this game to slope into the crapper the way it is.

Oh my godddddd drop the MK talk

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

I guess I'll enter the fray. I believe dropping the stock isn't bad, but it's defiantely not good either. I wouldn't mind the drop of stock. But the old way of stock seems to be in the middle of not too long, not to short. In order for us to know whether it's bad, we must experiment with it. Regarding the MK talk, banning mk isn't going to change anything due to the other high tiers(Snake, ice climbers especially, diddy, etc.). It just means you have to be on your guard more then you should. Oh, and hi everyone.

 

[T-block]

Hey VS7 =o Haven't seen you around in a while... how are things in Japan? I almost got to play Earth at Genesis2, but we got kicked off the TV before that =(

I agree experimentation would be good... I'm definitely very curious as to how different it will feel.

 

[Aposl]

I think i might of been misunderstood by my original post, what I am saying is that first, I love all you PT mains. But I must say that until one of us (this only applies to who falls in this category) makes waves, like some consistent top placement at locals/regionals/nationals, then this rule change wont really effect us THAT much. Until we get better as players we will not be able to represent Pokemon Trainer in tournament.

That being said, I believe a 2 stock game versus 3 stock game would benefit PT sometimes and sometimes hinder our character. I have had plenty of matches where I dominated someone with Squirtle and they where able to slowly creep they're way back into beating me. If it had been 2 stock matches I would have won. Charizard can take a hit from change and keep on chuggin along so starting with Squirtle is great. Same with starting with Charizard because he takes so long to kill, then changes to Squirtle when he dies.

The reason this is bad is because sometimes we get ***** of that change, and no one should start with Zard if Squirtle is better in the MU. So this puts critical stress on PT controlling the match (but whats new right?) Especially getting that first kill. So all in all it would probably benefit PT but it would have its coin flip moments where PT gets screwed during a change scenario, even if we had the lead the whole game, which sucks.

Lastly I think **** is bitter, and I know I am, about this idea because no one wants to start placing after a rule like this comes into play. I and I assume yall have pride as PT mains to want to win with the rules as is, especially because Reflex has already done it. So I am willing to admit that I am turned off by this concept because it would hurt my pride as a player but yes it would benefit our character a great deal over all.

 

[Steeler]

i like this because it sounds like fun. 3 stock games last way too long as it is. bo5 2stock would make things more interesting. i think this is generally good for the game.

PT will be borderline mid tier anyway (unless we start doing 1 stock lol)

 

[Geenareeno]

Volt I am interested in your opinion on the hype issue. The whole reason this rule is being considered is because Brawl is boring (paraphrased). Is that the way it is seen in japan?

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

Volt I am interested in your opinion on the hype issue. The whole reason this rule is being considered is because Brawl is boring (paraphrased). Is that the way it is seen in japan?

Gennareeno

It isn't.　If it was boring, then players of Japan wouldn't go out of their way to go to tournies such as Genesis 2 and Apex. Brawl isn't boring, in my opinion, it just needs some new things, which I assume why the stock for your ruleset is changing. (freakin M2K, I m mean, shuttle loop, I mean, ahh) I believe Japan won't stop. Rain and Earth are probably the only two that have the money to travel for now. I would travel, but I'm currently not old enough to do so.