The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - fall down seven times, stand up eight (Mii costume confirmed)

[TDDolphin]

I get that but a disgusting ugly bootleg mii costume ported directly from Smash 4 and a worthless anniversary tweet is absolutely insulting at this point, at least Geno had a spirit in base game and came back with a character that made sense, I already know they'll just bring back Lloyd's costume like it's nothing and basically mock us for wanting more than a disgusting mii lmfao

Well, people who wanted characters like Monster Hunter, Heihachi and Geno went through that same thing too. If Lloyd was revealed earlier than those guys, then their fans would be in a similar situation to us. Hoping that since they were held off until last then they'll actually be upgraded to a playable fighter, and could be massively disappointed that their Smash 4 ported Mii costume is returning after all, after being held off until last. In this case it just so happened to be Lloyd whose the only one left now, and even then, it's still not guaranteed he'll be upgraded. I would like to see him become playable despite my prediction that his Mii costume will return with another character, but I'm being realistic at the same time.

We're close to the end, and feelings are going to be hurt no matter who gets the last 2 spots in Ultimate.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

Well, people who wanted characters like Monster Hunter, Heihachi and Geno went through that same thing too. If Lloyd was revealed earlier than those guys, then their fans would be in a similar situation to us. Hoping that since they were held off until last then they'll actually be upgraded to a playable fighter, and could be massively disappointed that their Smash 4 ported Mii costume is returning after all, after being held off until last. In this case it just so happened to be Lloyd whose the only one left now, and even then, it's still not guaranteed he'll be upgraded. I would like to see him become playable despite my prediction that his Mii costume will return with another character, but I'm being realistic at the same time.

We're close to the end, and feelings are going to be hurt no matter who gets the last 2 spots in Ultimate.

You're right, the last two will be complete and utter garbage no matter what Smash fans want to say

 

[TDDolphin]

You're right, the last two will be complete and utter garbage no matter what Smash fans want to say

That is not what I meant at all

 

[ForsakenM]

Well, people who wanted characters like Monster Hunter, Heihachi and Geno went through that same thing too. If Lloyd was revealed earlier than those guys, then their fans would be in a similar situation to us. Hoping that since they were held off until last then they'll actually be upgraded to playable fighter, and could be massively disappointed that their Smash 4 ported Mii costume is returning after all, after being held off until last. In this case it just so happened to be Lloyd whose the only one left now, and even then, it's still not guaranteed he'll be upgraded. I would like to see him become playable despite my prediction that his Mii costume will return with another character, but I'm being realistic at the same time.

We're close to the end, and feelings are going to be hurt no matter who gets the last 2 spots in Ultimate.

Oh speaking of which, this reminds me.

There is more potential for more content after this pass than a lot of people think. It's my personal opinion, backed by investigation and research, that originally these two passes were going to be the only DLC and that all these characters were, for the most part, chosen and negotiated for early into DLC negotiation but that due to their massive success and a change in leadership, we will be getting more content in some shape or form. Whether it be an enhanced port like MvC3 to UMvC3 or another pass or just loose-leaf DLC like with Smash 4, I truly believe there will be more. From the COVID delays to Furakawa being invested in the DLC market heavily to how Steve was ridiculously successful and happened after Sakurai's statement, things just scream to me that the doors haven't closed on Ultimate just yet.

Regardless, the change in leadership I think might actually be in Lloyd's favor, but it depends on how Kimishima viewed things. Basically, I see one of two possibilities.

1. Kimishima was very business-oriented and had a focus on building relationships with other companies if I recall correctly. Considering the relationship between Nintendo and Namco already seems pretty good and how much help they have been in development of Smash for years now, strengthening that relationship with another character in Smash makes sense. If Kimishima had plans made in advance for the Tales Of anniversary before he left Nintendo, it's possible that Lloyd could already be in this pass but has just been delayed due to COVID. Don't forget that Steve 'came out on time' according to Sakurai, which when paired up with how we got more characters and more reveals in 2019 than 2020 suggests that a combination of demanding programming and COVID really jumbled things up. There are other signs that characters may have been released out of the original order, and since Steve was 'on time' for being around MineCon with his Sakurai Presents the day of, it's not impossible that Lloyd could have originally been intended to show up around the Tales Of Anniversary despite how usually Smash doesn't care about such things.
   
   
2. Lloyd isn't in this pass because Kimishima/Nintendo thought other choices would be better, but now that Furakawa is President and he cares about developers and is a big Nintendo fan himself, that opens the door widely for Lloyd to show up in future content. Remember that Sakurai thought there was no other choice for Tales Of content in Smash 4 but Lloyd. This means that Sakurai could only make one costume from the Tales Of series, and out of all the characters, he chose Lloyd because he felt like that was the best one to go with for the fans. If Sakurai gets to be a bit more hands-free with any future content (which he's definitely had input and impact with these 11 thus far, but there is a clear difference between the choices here and Smash 4) that can only be good for the double-sworded lad.

 

[Kamen Minecraft]

Oh speaking of which, this reminds me.

There is more potential for more content after this pass than a lot of people think. It's my personal opinion, backed by investigation and research, that originally these two passes were going to be the only DLC and that all these characters were, for the most part, chosen and negotiated for early into DLC negotiation but that due to their massive success and a change in leadership, we will be getting more content in some shape or form. Whether it be an enhanced port like MvC3 to UMvC3 or another pass or just loose-leaf DLC like with Smash 4, I truly believe there will be more. From the COVID delays to Furakawa being invested in the DLC market heavily to how Steve was ridiculously successful and happened after Sakurai's statement, things just scream to me that the doors haven't closed on Ultimate just yet.

Regardless, the change in leadership I think might actually be in Lloyd's favor, but it depends on how Kimishima viewed things. Basically, I see one of two possibilities.

1. Kimishima was very business-oriented and had a focus on building relationships with other companies if I recall correctly. Considering the relationship between Nintendo and Namco already seems pretty good and how much help they have been in development of Smash for years now, strengthening that relationship with another character in Smash makes sense. If Kimishima had plans made in advance for the Tales Of anniversary before he left Nintendo, it's possible that Lloyd could already be in this pass but has just been delayed due to COVID. Don't forget that Steve 'came out on time' according to Sakurai, which when paired up with how we got more characters and more reveals in 2019 than 2020 suggests that a combination of demanding programming and COVID really jumbled things up. There are other signs that characters may have been released out of the original order, and since Steve was 'on time' for being around MineCon with his Sakurai Presents the day of, it's not impossible that Lloyd could have originally been intended to show up around the Tales Of Anniversary despite how usually Smash doesn't care about such things.
   
   
2. Lloyd isn't in this pass because Kimishima/Nintendo thought other choices would be better, but now that Furakawa is President and he cares about developers and is a big Nintendo fan himself, that opens the door widely for Lloyd to show up in future content. Remember that Sakurai thought there was no other choice for Tales Of content in Smash 4 but Lloyd. This means that Sakurai could only make one costume from the Tales Of series, and out of all the characters, he chose Lloyd because he felt like that was the best one to go with for the fans. If Sakurai gets to be a bit more hands-free with any future content (which he's definitely had input and impact with these 11 thus far, but there is a clear difference between the choices here and Smash 4) that can only be good for the double-sworded lad.

The 12th DLC Smash Character could happen? That would be awesome if it does happen. I don't see a FP3 happening but a 12th DLC Character could happen. But now that you mentioned it If Lloyd doesn't show up at all as either a mii costume or a fighter in this Fighter Pass that will be suspicious...

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

The 12th DLC Smash Character could happen? That would be awesome if it does happen. I don't see a FP3 happening but a 12th DLC Character could happen. But now that you mentioned it If Lloyd doesn't show up at all as either a mii costume or a fighter in this Fighter Pass that will be suspicious...

Why do you people not think a third pass will happen? I know Sakurai keeps saying these are the last two but when has he ever stuck by things he's said? Lmao

 

[Kamen Minecraft]

Why do you people not think a third pass will happen? I know Sakurai keeps saying these are the last two but when has he ever stuck by things he's said? Lmao

It just seems that a third pass is too good to be true. I won't lie I would love for it to happen but I have to lower my expectations so I won't be disappointed.

 

[THE 6r]

It just seems that a third pass is too good to be true. I won't lie I would love for it to happen but I have to lower my expectations so I won't be disappointed.

This is where I stand as well. As lovely as a 3rd pass would be we have to be reasonable with our expectations. If there were to be a 3rd pass, it would have to be announced at E3.

 

[ForsakenM]

This is where I stand as well. As lovely as a 3rd pass would be we have to be reasonable with our expectations. If there were to be a 3rd pass, it would have to be announced at E3.

No, it wouldn't.

Both the 'working on more DLC' and Pass 2's official announcement were not E3 announcements. One was announced in that Nintendo direct that revealed Terry and the official reveal of 6 more characters was at the end of Byleth's presentation.

They can reveal the last two fighters of Pass 2 at E3 (which is very likely) and then wait until the end of Pack 11's presentation to reveal more content. This would also give them plenty of time to finish the beginning of said content so that we wouldn't have to wait as long for a reveal.

Also, they could just not saying anything, and then late 2021/early 2022 hit us with a new Smash reveal of some sort. As someone who loves fighting games, the pattern is usually as such: you either announce more DLC/content at the end of the last batch, or you wait for a major announcement time like EVO or your own time slot for your own online presentation.

Also, it doesn't have to be a Fighter's Pass 3. It could be Ultimate Deluxe, an enhanced port of Ultimate that makes good use of the rumored upgraded Switch's 4K while docked, adds some new items and game modes, and drops in a couple more characters. However, what I think is more likely is loose-leaf DLC like Smash 4. It's clear Sakurai hates this Season Pass style of DLC because he REALLY dislikes asking you to pay something without knowing what you are getting, which is very respectable frankly. Furakawa, as I mentioned, cares about developers and likes to let them do their own thing. This could mean that Sakurai prefers loose-leaf, announce them a couple at a time, kind of DLC planning with no looming pass or content to miss out on if you didn't buy said pass. Also, don't forget Sakurai said that his Sakurai Presents will be coming to in end after these next too, which means one of three things:

1. There is no more DLC after this.
2. They have made so much money that future characters will get breakdowns like Joker did, which I would hate because I love spending time with Sakurai.
3. It will be more like Smash 4 where he both reveals and gives a breakdown of the character in the same sitting for us.
4. The horrible random fourth choice in which Sakurai isn't part of the team anymore for whatever reason, so he won't be doing the breakdowns. Slightly better alternative is that he's still part of the team, but someone else does the breakdown, which would be weird.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

A last bonus character is certainly more likely than a Pass 3 at this point.

DLC began with a Bonus character, it ends with another.

 

[Nazyrus]

A last bonus character is certainly more likely than a Pass 3 at this point.

DLC began with a Bonus character, it ends with another.

I definitely see this way more likely than a 3rd pass too.
If that assumed bonus thing from some regions of the eshop website doesn't get fixed after this next reveal, then something is being added after CP11. If it gets fixed, then it never meant anything (which wouldn't be surprising, considering it wasn't a coding thing present in every region version of the store site).

You can't endlessly expect more and more passes, it's gonna end eventually and that time is near. People will just need to learn that you can't all be pleased, the game isn't endless.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You can't endlessly expect more and more passes, it's gonna end eventually and that time is near. People will just need to learn that you can't all be pleased, the game isn't endless.

Just because you think that maybe, just maybe one more pass could happen doesn't mean you see FP4, 5 etc. as possibilities. Sakurai isn't going to take a vacation any time soon thanks to Japanese work culture but he might still want to work on a new game within a year or two.

 

[Starlight Liger]

You can't endlessly expect more and more passes, it's gonna end eventually and that time is near. People will just need to learn that you can't all be pleased, the game isn't endless.

I agree. Even from a monetary perspective, there's only so much money you can invest in a video game before it becomes too expensive for the average consumer.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

Lloyd moved up to 57.9% on Yay or Nay! lol

 

[TDDolphin]

So I know I said a while ago that I've been hoping that both Lloyd Irving and Yuri Lowell somehow make onto Ultimate's roster as a 2-for-1 Challenger Pack deal, and that they could come with spirits and music tracks from both Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Vesperia, but at the time I found it difficult to come up with a stage for both characters and was going to settle on maybe one stage from one of the games, like the Tower of Salvation or Halure. But earlier today I think I came up with a great idea for a stage that represents both games!

I was thinking that the Tales of stage could take place on the Fiertia ship that Ba'ul can fly with (from Tales of Vesperia), and that Ba'ul could fly around the outside of the Tower of Salvation from Tales of Symphonia, travelling upward toward the top of the tower at a reasonable pace before making his way back down. Also, characters from both Symphonia and Vesperia could make cameos in the background of the ship similarly to Cloud Sea of Alrest, Mementos, Garreg Mach, King of Fighters Stadium and Yggdrasil's Altar. I was thinking all of the party members of both games, so Colette, Kratos, Genis, Raine, Sheena, Zelos, Presea, Regal, Flynn, Estelle, Repede, Karol, Rita, Raven, Judith and Patty could potentially show up on this stage.

Idk, I think it's a great idea, but what do you all think?

 

[Kamen Minecraft]

So I know I said a while ago that I've been hoping that both Lloyd Irving and Yuri Lowell somehow make onto Ultimate's roster as a 2-for-1 Challenger Pack deal, and that they could come with spirits and music tracks from both Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Vesperia, but at the time I found it difficult to come up with a stage for both characters and was going to settle on maybe one stage from one of the games, like the Tower of Salvation or Halure. But earlier today I think I came up with a great idea for a stage that represents both games!

I was thinking that the Tales of stage could take place on the Fiertia ship that Ba'ul can fly with (from Tales of Vesperia), and that Ba'ul could fly around the outside of the Tower of Salvation from Tales of Symphonia, travelling upward toward the top of the tower at a reasonable pace before making his way back down. Also, characters from both Symphonia and Vesperia could make cameos in the background of the ship similarly to Cloud Sea of Alrest, Mementos, Garreg Mach, King of Fighters Stadium and Yggdrasil's Altar. I was thinking all of the party members of both games, so Colette, Kratos, Genis, Raine, Sheena, Zelos, Presea, Regal, Flynn, Estelle, Repede, Karol, Rita, Raven, Judith and Patty could potentially show up on this stage.

Idk, I think it's a great idea, but what do you all think?

That would be awesome. I love this idea even though it doesn't make much sense storywise.

 

[IWantMyBurd]

So I know I said a while ago that I've been hoping that both Lloyd Irving and Yuri Lowell somehow make onto Ultimate's roster as a 2-for-1 Challenger Pack deal, and that they could come with spirits and music tracks from both Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Vesperia, but at the time I found it difficult to come up with a stage for both characters and was going to settle on maybe one stage from one of the games, like the Tower of Salvation or Halure. But earlier today I think I came up with a great idea for a stage that represents both games!

I was thinking that the Tales of stage could take place on the Fiertia ship that Ba'ul can fly with (from Tales of Vesperia), and that Ba'ul could fly around the outside of the Tower of Salvation from Tales of Symphonia, travelling upward toward the top of the tower at a reasonable pace before making his way back down. Also, characters from both Symphonia and Vesperia could make cameos in the background of the ship similarly to Cloud Sea of Alrest, Mementos, Garreg Mach, King of Fighters Stadium and Yggdrasil's Altar. I was thinking all of the party members of both games, so Colette, Kratos, Genis, Raine, Sheena, Zelos, Presea, Regal, Flynn, Estelle, Repede, Karol, Rita, Raven, Judith and Patty could potentially show up on this stage.

Idk, I think it's a great idea, but what do you all think?

Personally, it feels a bit janky to me to single out both Symphonia and Vesperia to get stage representation. If you're going to have the two of them, you'd want a mix of characters from across the series, like they do for the KoF stage.

As a concept, if you were to force the two to share a stage, that would be the way to do it. It still feels like a disservice to them both.

 

[Kamen Minecraft]

Personally, it feels a bit janky to me to single out both Symphonia and Vesperia to get stage representation. If you're going to have the two of them, you'd want a mix of characters from across the series, like they do for the KoF stage.

As a concept, if you were to force the two to share a stage, that would be the way to do it. It still feels like a disservice to them both.

Yeah I could see how that would rub some Tales fans the wrong way. But for me personally I like it. If Sakurai gave us both Lloyd and Yuri and we had that Stage I would be fine with it. Lloyd and Yuri alone makes it worth it. Another Idea if Lloyd and Yuri had to share a stage is that one thing that appears in every Tales game.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I looked at the character poll from the Tales of festival and even though Yuri is above Lloyd by 1, I was thinking. Maybe Yuri will be the last fighter of the pass and get the stages, a spirit board and most music from his game, and Lloyd will be a bonus fighter with some music from his game.

 

[Nazyrus]

Honestly I must be the only one who thinks it's gonna be more between Lloyd and Stahn instead of Lloyd and Yuri, lol. Just based on the fact that ToS and ToD are the most successful titles (one worldwide and the other in japan specifically). But that's just me I guess

 

[Clumsyzephyr]

I think it's cause Vesperia is more popular worldwide, and is actually about to overtake Symphonia's lifetime sales. Destiny sold very well in Japan but did terribly everywhere else

 

[TDDolphin]

Personally, it feels a bit janky to me to single out both Symphonia and Vesperia to get stage representation. If you're going to have the two of them, you'd want a mix of characters from across the series, like they do for the KoF stage.

As a concept, if you were to force the two to share a stage, that would be the way to do it. It still feels like a disservice to them both.

I singled Symphonia and Vesperia out because they're basically tied as the frontrunners for Smash representation. If I had to choose between Lloyd and Yuri, if I could only have one, then I'd go with Yuri and Tales of Vesperia content going to one of the remaining Challenger Packs. I wouldn't mind Lloyd if he got in, but I like Yuri so much more than him.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

Guys now that I think about it, has any leaker ever talked about future Bandai Namco content in Smash beyond those garbage Smash 4 mii's?

 

[Nazyrus]

Guys now that I think about it, has any leaker ever talked about future Bandai Namco content in Smash beyond those garbage Smash 4 mii's?

Not that I'm aware. All you will find is any dumb vergeben follower believing in his deconfirmation list where he said we weren't getting a Bamco rep, lol. Honestly not worth caring, considering legit leakers have only proven to know who is in, but never who is not in.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

Did they forget Vergeben has been wrong several times and is mostly riding off other leakers and leaks in general

 

[IWantMyBurd]

I singled Symphonia and Vesperia out because they're basically tied as the frontrunners for Smash representation. If I had to choose between Lloyd and Yuri, if I could only have one, then I'd go with Yuri and Tales of Vesperia content going to one of the remaining Challenger Packs. I wouldn't mind Lloyd if he got in, but I like Yuri so much more than him.

Fair, but you miss my point by a bit - if they include content from more than just one entry in the series, they're not stopping at just two, even if it's arguably the two most popular. There would be no reason at that point to stop there, not when Tales has such a long and storied history.

That's the reason that I think if we get a Tales character, we're likely to get content from just their game (not counting Mii costumes). Like with Sephiroth's FF7 pack - each entry in the series is rich enough in characters and music to fill out a satisfying challenger pack on its own. That and, with a few POSSIBLE obscure exceptions, their stories don't really intersect at all. Not the way games like King of Fighters and Fatal Fury do.

 

[Kamen Minecraft]

Fair, but you miss my point by a bit - if they include content from more than just one entry in the series, they're not stopping at just two, even if it's arguably the two most popular. There would be no reason at that point to stop there, not when Tales has such a long and storied history.

That's the reason that I think if we get a Tales character, we're likely to get content from just their game (not counting Mii costumes). Like with Sephiroth's FF7 pack - each entry in the series is rich enough in characters and music to fill out a satisfying challenger pack on its own. That and, with a few POSSIBLE obscure exceptions, their stories don't really intersect at all. Not the way games like King of Fighters and Fatal Fury do.

I just want a Tales character at this point tbh. I would prefer Lloyd but anyone else would be alright Yuri, Stahn, Velvet, Luke etc.
I know a Tales Character would be a perfect fit for smash their moveset would be unique and very easy to put together.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

How does Adol keep beating Lloyd in every fanpoll I see them compete in

 

[THE 6r]

How does Adol keep beating Lloyd in every fanpoll I see them compete in

AN YS REFERENCE!?

I have been summoned.

(In all seriousness, I'm rooting for both to be in Smash, but I would be lying if I said that Adol isn't my most wanted).

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

AN YS REFERENCE!?

I have been summoned.

(In all seriousness, I'm rooting for both to be in Smash, but I would be lying if I said that Adol isn't my most wanted).

It wouldn't surprise me if people like you gather Falcom fanboys to spam votes for Adol in these polls tbh

 

[Kamen Minecraft]

It wouldn't surprise me if people like you gather Falcom fanboys to spam votes for Adol in these polls tbh

Fanpolls don't matter much in the end. Unless it is an official poll by Nintendo you shouldn't put too much meaning into polls.

 

[THE 6r]

It wouldn't surprise me if people like you gather Falcom fanboys to spam votes for Adol in these polls tbh

I'm going to level with you, this is the first I'm hearing of anything of that sort lol. I've never actually followed fan polls and I can't think of a true organized campaign that votes in them.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm going to level with you, this is the first I'm hearing of anything of that sort lol. I've never actually followed fan polls and I can't think of a true organized campaign that votes in them.

That one big Adol essay I wrote a while back must've spread somehow without me knowing it. Well, that or the Ys challenger pack concept. Maybe both.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

I wish people would stop using Square Enix as an example to say "oh they wouldve saved bamco miis with lloyd if he was fighter cuz square enix did it!". Do they not realize that Geno would've returned with Hero if Sephiroth weren't added. Like do they think a Capcom character would bring back all 6 missing mii's from Smash 4?

 

[DazeXz]

I've been thinking about the whole discussion between lloyd and yuri and how only one of them works and that its impossible to get both but i, still kinda believing in that 5chan post that hasn't been disproven or wrong yet, have been thinking and came to the conclusion that we could get both with one as an echo and the way it could work out is doing an echo "ken" style. Even though ken is an echo he has less in common with ryu than villager does with isabelle and she isn't even an echo. The way i could see it is lloyd uses dual sword while yuri would use his sword and his gauntlet, an example being sword rain and cerberus strike, azure edge and demon fang, etc. I think this is a fine workaround and would be a total love letter to the fans, highly optimistic but i was just thinking about how to make it work. I would be just fine with one of them naturally.

 

[IWantMyBurd]

Even though ken is an echo he has less in common with ryu than villager does with isabelle and she isn't even an echo.

Ummm no? Ryu and Ken's moves behave differently, but they're still the same moves. The moves that Villager and Isabelle share are more functionally similar, but they have a lot less in common than the shotoclones do.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to one being an echo of the other. More content isn't bad. But frankly, the most likely way for the two of them to be fighters at this point is to give them the last two challenger packs.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

I've been thinking about the whole discussion between lloyd and yuri and how only one of them works and that its impossible to get both but i, still kinda believing in that 5chan post that hasn't been disproven or wrong yet, have been thinking and came to the conclusion that we could get both with one as an echo and the way it could work out is doing an echo "ken" style. Even though ken is an echo he has less in common with ryu than villager does with isabelle and she isn't even an echo. The way i could see it is lloyd uses dual sword while yuri would use his sword and his gauntlet, an example being sword rain and cerberus strike, azure edge and demon fang, etc. I think this is a fine workaround and would be a total love letter to the fans, highly optimistic but i was just thinking about how to make it work. I would be just fine with one of them naturally.

I've been thinking about the whole discussion between lloyd and yuri and how only one of them works and that its impossible to get both but i, still kinda believing in that 5chan post that hasn't been disproven or wrong yet, have been thinking and came to the conclusion that we could get both with one as an echo and the way it could work out is doing an echo "ken" style. Even though ken is an echo he has less in common with ryu than villager does with isabelle and she isn't even an echo. The way i could see it is lloyd uses dual sword while yuri would use his sword and his gauntlet, an example being sword rain and cerberus strike, azure edge and demon fang, etc. I think this is a fine workaround and would be a total love letter to the fans, highly optimistic but i was just thinking about how to make it work. I would be just fine with one of them naturally.

Which 5 chan leak?

 

[TDDolphin]

Ummm no? Ryu and Ken's moves behave differently, but they're still the same moves. The moves that Villager and Isabelle share are more functionally similar, but they have a lot less in common than the shotoclones do.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to one being an echo of the other. More content isn't bad. But frankly, the most likely way for the two of them to be fighters at this point is to give them the last two challenger packs.

But don't Lloyd and Yuri play completely different from one another? They not only use 2 swords and 1 sword respectively, but they use completely different artes too. I just don't see how one could be an Echo Fighter of the other without taking away aspects of their playstyles. Also, I don't see both Lloyd and Yuri taking up both of the remaining Challenger Packs, which was why I was saying that they could be a 2 fighter in 1 Challenger Pack. I know that goes against the "1 Fighter, 1 Stage, and a set of Music Tracks" rule established by Sakurai for the Challenger Packs, but... it's possible that Sakurai couldn't choose between one or the other, so he might just add both for the sheer fun of it...

And about my stage idea. I guess I see your point...

Which 5 chan leak?

Japanese Smash Ultimate leaker reveals future DLC fighters - Dexerto
Here's an article about it.

 

[Sephirothorsomethingidk]

Japanese Smash Ultimate leaker reveals future DLC fighters - Dexerto
Here's an article about it.
[/QUOTE]
Could've sworn that knockoff vergeben clone ifran cuck already said he didn't believe it

 

[TDDolphin]

Japanese Smash Ultimate leaker reveals future DLC fighters - Dexerto
Here's an article about it.

Could've sworn that knockoff vergeben clone ifran cuck already said he didn't believe it
[/QUOTE]
Do you take Imran seriously? He's only had inside knowledge on Min Min since the start of Fighters Pass 2. Also that 5chan leak was from all the way back in 2018, and it had correct info on Hero, Steve and Sephiroth way back then, long before Imran even came into the picture...