The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - LLOYD SURVIVES THE SLAUGHTER!

Cadillac

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Does anyone know the name of Lloyd's sword? By that, I mean the swords he uses in most promotional artworks. The wiki has no image of weapons.
 

Ypsen

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I think its the Mumei
It's what I thought too for several years, but if I remember well, the design doesn't match. Mumei don't have the thin part at the start of the blades, and the hilts are black.
Lloyd's swords can't be obtain in the game, and doesn't seem to have names in the anime either.

Also, something that a lot of fans seem to forget about Lloyd's dual swords, it's that they aren't actual two identical katanas. One of the two blades is actualy shorter than the other. (I don't know if that fact is respected in the anime and other games outside the original ToS though)
It's probably inspired by the fact that samurais using two blades, were actually using a wakizashi (a short katana) alongside the classic katana, instead of two katanas.

You can spot the difference in size easily thanks to the scabbards, both on the original artwork and the in game model of Lloyd.
unnamed.jpg
 
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Nazyrus

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It's what I thought too for several years, but if I remember well, the design doesn't match. Mumei don't have the thin part at the start of the blades, and the hilts are black.
Lloyd's swords can't be obtain in the game, and doesn't seem to have names in the anime either.

Also, something that a lot of fans seem to forget about Lloyd's dual swords, it's that they aren't actual two identical katanas. One of the two blades is actualy shorter than the other. (I don't know if that fact is respected in the anime and other games outside the original ToS though)
It's probably inspired by the fact that samurais using two blades, were actually using a wakizashi (a short katana) alongside the classic katana, instead of two katanas.

You can spot the difference in size easily thanks to the scabbards, both on the original artwork and the in game model of Lloyd.
View attachment 268083
The swords are the same to me, you're probably getting confused by the perspective and how they are pointing. On the sideways view, the outer blade you can see it's going inwards behind him so it looks like the one he is holding on the other side looks longer. And on his back view, one sword is pointing upwards a bit towards the viewer while the other one is pointing lower.
 
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Ypsen

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The swords are the same to me, you're probably getting confused by the perspective and how they are pointing. On the sideways view, the outer blade you can see it's going inwards behind him so it looks like the one he is holding on the other side looks longer. And on his back view, one sword is pointing upwards a bit towards the viewer while the other one is pointing lower.
You sure ? I see the same thing whatever the angle of his model in game. Actually, it's also the same thing for it's Mii Model in Smash 4.

lloyd model.PNG

Even if the "shorter" sword is tilting toward Genis, assuming the two swords are equals in size, the two sheaths should be touching each other. But the tilt is too subtle, meaning the perspective doesn't mess that much with our eyes.


It always catches my eye ! I always spotted that the swords are tilting in different ways alongside some perspective problems, but I always thought the difference in size was way too strong for such a little tilt, and whatever the perspective of the model, one sword always looks shorter, sometime way shorter depending the angle (like this pic of Smash 4).
 
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Nazyrus

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You sure ? I see the same thing whatever the angle of his model in game. Actually, it's also the same thing for it's Mii Model in Smash 4.


Even if the "shorter" sword is tilting toward Genis, assuming the two swords are equals in size, the two sheaths should be touching each other. But the tilt is too subtle, meaning the perspective doesn't mess that much with our eyes.


It always catches my eye ! I always spotted that the swords are tilting in different ways alongside some perspective problems, but I always thought the difference in size was way too strong for such a little tilt, and whatever the perspective of the model, one sword always looks shorter, sometime way shorter depending the angle (like this pic of Smash 4).
Hmm well the gamecube picture definitely does make me believe it is longer yeah… I dunno anymore lol that damn dwarf daddy messed up the measurements of it :c haha
 

IWantMyBurd

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How are you all feeling about Lloyd's chances? I think he's one of the most likely characters right now.
At this point, I don't know about most likely. I think he has a good sporting chance, but we'll have to see how it goes with the next couple of fighters. If it leans towards third party characters like the last pass, I'd rate him as pretty likely. The more Nintendo characters we get, the slimmer his chances.
 

Ypsen

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Tales of Arise is the number one!!!!
Wow, I never expected Tales of would beat Botw 2 in most anticipated games, even in Japan ! Being my favorite licence after Zelda, it's nice to see !

How are you all feeling about Lloyd's chances? I think he's one of the most likely characters right now.
With Banjo still the only exception, I still think Nintendo is counting heavily on the Fighters Pass to promote any games/dlcs with an intersting release window (2020/2021 for the FP2). I always thought so since the launch of the first FP, and now with Byleth and Arms, it's crystal clear.

Tales of Arise is not scheduled for the Switch, wich is in my opinion the decisive factor for Lloyd's chance. Nintendo won't promote a third party game if they wouldn't make any profit. Heck, even a first party character for which they have no marketing plans seem to have very low chances.

So yeah, to me, Lloyd is in a very bad spot. I expect him returning as a Mii costume (wich it makes me every Fighter release video a torture to me).

Namco Bandai has to announce something big related to Tales of for Nintendo, or we're doomed.
 
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Cadillac

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Wow, I never expected Tales of would beat Botw 2 in most anticipated games, even in Japan ! Being my favorite licence after Zelda, it's nice to see !



With Banjo still the only exception, I still think Nintendo is counting heavily on the Fighters Pass to promote any games/dlcs with an intersting release window (2020/2021 for the FP2). I always thought so since the launch of the first FP, and now with Byleth and Arms, it's crystal clear.

Tales of Arise is not scheduled for the Switch, wich is in my opinion the decisive factor for Lloyd's chance. Nintendo won't promote a third party game if they wouldn't make any profit. Heck, even a first party character for which they have no marketing plans seem to have very low chances.

So yeah, to me, Lloyd is in a very bad spot. I expect him returning as a Mii costume (wich it makes me every Fighter release video a torture to me).

Namco Bandai has to announce something big related to Tales of for Nintendo, or we're doomed.
If Tales of Arise gets announced in Switch, will they put Lloyd or the new protagonist?
 
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Clumsyzephyr

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Wow, I never expected Tales of would beat Botw 2 in most anticipated games, even in Japan ! Being my favorite licence after Zelda, it's nice to see !



With Banjo still the only exception, I still think Nintendo is counting heavily on the Fighters Pass to promote any games/dlcs with an intersting release window (2020/2021 for the FP2). I always thought so since the launch of the first FP, and now with Byleth and Arms, it's crystal clear.

Tales of Arise is not scheduled for the Switch, wich is in my opinion the decisive factor for Lloyd's chance. Nintendo won't promote a third party game if they wouldn't make any profit. Heck, even a first party character for which they have no marketing plans seem to have very low chances.

So yeah, to me, Lloyd is in a very bad spot. I expect him returning as a Mii costume (wich it makes me every Fighter release video a torture to me).

Namco Bandai has to announce something big related to Tales of for Nintendo, or we're doomed.
I highly doubt that would affect his chances at all, especially since Lloyd has nothing to do with Arise. Also, Bamco ported vesperia to the switch and most likely plan on porting other titles in the series too as it apparently did very well.
 
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It's great to see Tales of Arise at the top of the list. Hopefully we'll see more info in the Digital E3 event. I'm guessing it will be released during the holiday season to coincide with the 25th anniversary.
 

Ypsen

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If Tales of Arise gets announced in Switch, will they put Lloyd or the new protagonist?
It has to be Lloyd, he's the face of Tales of for the Western public AND the most wanted tales of character for Smash. They probably use Lloyd's arrival as a chance to promote ToArise though, via music, mii costume or spirit events (if Lloyd gets in)

I highly doubt that would affect his chances at all, especially since Lloyd has nothing to do with Arise. Also, Bamco ported vesperia to the switch and most likely plan on porting other titles in the series too as it apparently did very well.
I think the main thing we should focus on when it comes to DLC, it's the busisness and marketing climate. Like I said, Banjo is the only exception, every DLC was a promoting move. The logic is not the same as the base roster. If we'd talk Lloyd's chance for the next upcomming Smash, I would completely agree that Lloyd's popularity and Tales of as the third great JRPG would be more than enough arguments to secure Lloyd's spot in the next game.

But here, we're talking DLC, that Nintendo is using to make money and advertising. If Bandai Namco doesn't make any decisive move in regards to Tales of on the Switch this next 2 years, I don't see any reason why they choose Lloyd over every else characters that would sell well AND promoting a new upcomming game or extension/dlc, especially when Third Party character have a cost, in one way or another.
 
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It has to be Lloyd, he's the face of Tales of for the Western public AND the most wanted tales of character for Smash. They probably use Lloyd's arrival as a chance to promote ToArise though, via music, mii costume or spirit events (if Lloyd gets in)



I think the main thing we should focus on when it comes to DLC, it's the busisness and marketing climate. Like I said, Banjo is the only exception, every DLC was a promoting move. The logic is not the same as the base roster. If we'd talk Lloyd's chance for the next upcomming Smash, I would completely agree that Lloyd's popularity and Tales of as the third great JRPG would be more than enough arguments to secure Lloyd's spot in the next game.

But here, we're talking DLC, that Nintendo is using to make money and advertising. If Bandai Namco doesn't make any decisive move in regards to Tales of on the Switch this next 2 years, I don't see any reason why they choose Lloyd over every else characters that would sell well AND promoting a new upcomming game or extension/dlc, especially when Third Party character have a cost, in one way or another.
No. Piranha Plant marketed nothing. Joker marketed nothing, no the spin off that didn't come out until a year later and is currently still Japan only does not count. Terry did not promote anything significant. ARMS 2 is not confirmed or even rumored, it's just something people made up. Hero and Byleth are the only promotional characters.
 

Clumsyzephyr

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It has to be Lloyd, he's the face of Tales of for the Western public AND the most wanted tales of character for Smash. They probably use Lloyd's arrival as a chance to promote ToArise though, via music, mii costume or spirit events (if Lloyd gets in)



I think the main thing we should focus on when it comes to DLC, it's the busisness and marketing climate. Like I said, Banjo is the only exception, every DLC was a promoting move. The logic is not the same as the base roster. If we'd talk Lloyd's chance for the next upcomming Smash, I would completely agree that Lloyd's popularity and Tales of as the third great JRPG would be more than enough arguments to secure Lloyd's spot in the next game.

But here, we're talking DLC, that Nintendo is using to make money and advertising. If Bandai Namco doesn't make any decisive move in regards to Tales of on the Switch this next 2 years, I don't see any reason why they choose Lloyd over every else characters that would sell well AND promoting a new upcomming game or extension/dlc, especially when Third Party character have a cost, in one way or another.
Only two characters in the dlc were promotional characters, Hero and Byleth. And if Tales on switch is 'required' for a character to get in, we have Vesperia on there, so it's not like the franchise is nonexistent on the console.
 

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No. Piranha Plant marketed nothing. Joker marketed nothing, no the spin off that didn't come out until a year later and is currently still Japan only does not count. Terry did not promote anything significant. ARMS 2 is not confirmed or even rumored, it's just something people made up. Hero and Byleth are the only promotional characters.
Actually, PP did market Ultimate to some degree. Specifically, if you buy Ultimate early enough, you can get a code to get it free. Just like Mewtwo marketing both versions of Smash 4 overall.

It's not that much marketing, but it's still clearly done in a promotional way.

Rest is correct, though.
 

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Actually, PP did market Ultimate to some degree. Specifically, if you buy Ultimate early enough, you can get a code to get it free. Just like Mewtwo marketing both versions of Smash 4 overall.

It's not that much marketing, but it's still clearly done in a promotional way.

Rest is correct, though.
But the argument is that they choose which characters to add based on promotion. The way it was released promotes the game but the character choice itself promotes nothing, so it doesn't count as a marketing character in the sense we were talking about.
 
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I think Microsoft only allowed Banjo in provided that Minecraft Dungeons gets ported to the Switch. At least that's what I got from some of the interviews with Rare devs.
 
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Beth Uriel

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But the argument is that they choose which characters to add based on promotion. The way it was released promotes the game but the character choice itself promotes nothing, so it doesn't count as a marketing character in the sense we were talking about.
Then I misunderstood you. My bad.

It's a similar marketing tactic like how Isabelle was introduced specifically to help New Horizons. But wasn't added to promote the game.

If it's not entirely clear what I meant, heh.

It's also why I like how Isabelle is. She's not there to simply advertise(hell, Tom Nook advertised New Horizons more than she did. Sadly he's still not playable). She was added due to mass popularity(I'll clarify I do think the ballot somewhat helped), iconicness, relevancy, and it wasn't exactly hard when she had a perfect base to use to make a semi-clone. I feel each factor played their role. Well, okay, a bit with Amiibo Festival too since it made her personality perfect, a girl who just wants to have fun with games, even those that require physical force, heh.
 

Ypsen

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Piranha was decided to be a very recognisable character in order to go well with the pre-order offer, Sakurai just decided that he didn't want a main hero or main antagonist. So yeah, there was still a marketing issue.

But as for the Plant, we don't know how much Sakurai had control with the choice with this peculiar DLC. But we do know that Nintendo has a big influence on the Fighter Pass.

Joker was clearly making the promotion of Persona 5 scramble. I don't know why it doesn't count for you, but the annoucement of the game was made just after the reveal, and it's also the only Persona game on Switch so... yeah, the intention was clear.

Hero was obviously promoting DQ11.

Terry was released on a perfect window for SNK and Nintendo : SNK 40th anniversary collection was released between holidays of 2018 and spring 2019, and Samurai Showdown on Switch was released just a month after Terry.

As I said, Banjo is an exception.

Byleth just as Hero is obvious.

As for Arms, we don't know if we'll have a Arms 2 or anything, sure, but with the 10 days free try for the game announced right after the reveal of the last DLC, it's hard to not see a marketing move. I don't know what's in store for Arms, maybe they just trying to bring more players on the game thanks to smash, but the intention is clear : they using the DLC to advertise the game.
 
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Clumsyzephyr

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Piranha was decided to be a very recognisable character in order to go well with the pre-order offer, Sakurai just decided that he didn't want a main hero or main antagonist. So yeah, there was still a marketing issue.

But as for the Plant, we don't know how much Sakurai had control with the choice with this peculiar DLC. But we do know that Nintendo has a big influence on the Fighter Pass.

Joker was clearly making the promotion of Persona 5 scramble. I don't know why it doesn't count for you, but the annoucement of the game was made just after the reveal, and it's also the only Persona game on Switch so... yeah, the intention was clear.

Hero was obviously promoting DQ11.

Terry was released on a perfect window for SNK and Nintendo : SNK 40th anniversary collection was released between holidays of 2018 and spring 2019, and Samurai Showdown on Switch was released just a month after Terry.

As I said, Banjo is an exception.

Byleth just as Hero is obvious.

As for Arms, we don't know if we'll have a Arms 2 or anything, sure, but with the 10 days free try for the game announced right after the reveal of the last DLC, it's hard to not see a marketing move. I don't know what's in store for Arms, maybe they just trying to bring more players on the game thanks to smash, but the intention is clear : they using the DLC to advertise the game.
Vesperia DE was released on the switch early 2019, if it absolutely NEEDS something on the switch to promote, then it does the job just as well. But there's nothing suggesting that it's absolutely mandatory that there needs to be a game to promote it. Also, Scramble was not revealed right after Joker was, and he's definitely promoting Persona 5 more than any spinoff related to it.
 

Ypsen

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Vesperia DE was released on the switch early 2019, if it absolutely NEEDS something on the switch to promote, then it does the job just as well. But there's nothing suggesting that it's absolutely mandatory that there needs to be a game to promote it. Also, Scramble was not revealed right after Joker was, and he's definitely promoting Persona 5 more than any spinoff related to it.
The difference with Vesperia and SNK, is that a new game was launching just after the release of Terry. Nintendo seems to use the DLC to advertising new content.
Even if Joker profits very well to Sega, Nintendo has still something to win since a spin off game is scheduled to the Switch !

What I mean is, exception made for Banjo, Nintendo had always something to advertise with their DLC. But when it comes to Tales of, we don't have anything fresh. Even for Arms, Nintendo is obviously trying to do something with the licence, and it is a Nintendo first party licence ! It wouldn't make any sense to promote Vesperia all of a sudden, (except if there's new tales of incoming).

Of course there's no absolutely mandatory that there needs to be a game to promote, Banjo is the proof. I don't say Lloyd has 0 chance ! I just want to make a quick reminder that's the first reason of the DLC is to make the most profit, and that until now, every DLC was used as promoting platform. Which means in the current marketing climate, Lloyd's chance is definitively not at his highest.
So for that main reason, I don't see how we could see him as one of the most likely characters just because he is popular and he would make so much sense. I get the sentiment, but these arguments could be made for every other popular characters. Sadly, the disapearance of the Mii costume doesn't prove anything, especially when we see every old mii costume returning with every new DLC. Bandai Namco working on the game doesn't seem to be as strong as an argument either since they got nothing on Smash 4 DLC, and no more new representation on the base roster for Ultimate. It would make sense, yeah, it would be hustice, but there's absolutely no clues or reasons that Bandai Namco would get new content before every other else companies.

My goal is not to rain on anyone's parade. It's just, I think the Lloyd's fanbase is way to quiet and inactive outside of the poll results because how certain we are he'll be in. Even here on smashboards, our support thread is ridiculously small for such a big contender. At least whith Isaac, I'm convinced our voice has been heard for the next game since there is so many content about him everywhere I read about Smash content... but as for Lloyd... ? I feel others character get even more momentum and support as time pass, but when it comes to Lloyd, it seems to be quite the opposite.
 
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Cadillac

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Ok, I thought about Lloyd's stats.
A tall, middleweight(97-99) swordfighter with good mobility on the ground but not the best midair. Doesn't have the highest jump height and is slightly floaty.
 
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Clumsyzephyr

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The difference with Vesperia and SNK, is that a new game was launching just after the release of Terry. Nintendo seems to use the DLC to advertising new content.
Even if Joker profits very well to Sega, Nintendo has still something to win since a spin off game is scheduled to the Switch !

What I mean is, exception made for Banjo, Nintendo had always something to advertise with their DLC. But when it comes to Tales of, we don't have anything fresh. Even for Arms, Nintendo is obviously trying to do something with the licence, and it is a Nintendo first party licence ! It wouldn't make any sense to promote Vesperia all of a sudden, (except if there's new tales of incoming).

Of course there's no absolutely mandatory that there needs to be a game to promote, Banjo is the proof. I don't say Lloyd has 0 chance ! I just want to make a quick reminder that's the first reason of the DLC is to make the most profit, and that until now, every DLC was used as promoting platform. Which means in the current marketing climate, Lloyd's chance is definitively not at his highest.
So for that main reason, I don't see how we could see him as one of the most likely characters just because he is popular and he would make so much sense. I get the sentiment, but these arguments could be made for every other popular characters. Sadly, the disapearance of the Mii costume doesn't prove anything, especially when we see every old mii costume returning with every new DLC. Bandai Namco working on the game doesn't seem to be as strong as an argument either since they got nothing on Smash 4 DLC, and no more new representation on the base roster for Ultimate. It would make sense, yeah, it would be hustice, but there's absolutely no clues or reasons that Bandai Namco would get new content before every other else companies.

My goal is not to rain on anyone's parade. It's just, I think the Lloyd's fanbase is way to quiet and inactive outside of the poll results because how certain we are he'll be in. Even here on smashboards, our support thread is ridiculously small for such a big contender. At least whith Isaac, I'm convinced our voice has been heard for the next game since there is so many content about him everywhere I read about Smash content... but as for Lloyd... ? I feel others character get even more momentum and support as time pass, but when it comes to Lloyd, it seems to be quite the opposite.

If Banjo is an exception, then that kinda makes your overall point weak. Arms is most likely just promoting Arms, a game that you can still purchase on the same console as smash. I don't think Lloyd is guaranteed, but I do think he's got a good shot, and I don't believe they'd dismiss the character because "Symphonia isn't on the switch even though another game in the series that sold really well is"
 
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I don't think Lloyd is guaranteed, but I do think he's got a good shot, and I don't believe they'd dismiss the character because "Symphonia isn't on the switch even though another game in the series that sold really well is"
Dude, :ultbanjokazooie: and :ultjoker:had reskins/costumes in Minecraft and Sonic forces and they still got in smash ultimate without the need of a new switch game and Lloyd appeared as a costume in Tales of Vesperia DE which it is also released for the Switch, they could still choose Lloyd Irving.
 

Clumsyzephyr

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Dude, :ultbanjokazooie: and :ultjoker:had reskins/costumes in Minecraft and Sonic forces and they still got in smash ultimate without the need of a new switch game and Lloyd appeared as a costume in Tales of Vesperia DE which it is also released for the Switch, they could still choose Lloyd Irving.
You seem to have misinterpreted that. If you read all of my post, that's exactly what I was arguing against. That's why the statement is in quotes
 

Ypsen

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If Banjo is an exception, then that kinda makes your overall point weak. Arms is most likely just promoting Arms, a game that you can still purchase on the same console as smash. I don't think Lloyd is guaranteed, but I do think he's got a good shot, and I don't believe they'd dismiss the character because "Symphonia isn't on the switch even though another game in the series that sold really well is"
No it's the fact that Banjo is indeed, what we call an exception, that makes my argument strong. The purpose of an exception is to be rare. That's where I stand : Lloyd has low (not zero) chance because it seems that DLCs are focusing on marketing moves. There probably will be one or two DLC which won't be chosen on these factors, but it makes the competition very tight for Lloyd, since a lot of other characters are very demanded. Everybody seem to think their characters is THE choice to be made to make a fan service DLC...

But Arms is being "resurrected" by Nintendo ! Arms was supposed to be one the first flaghship title of Switch, promoting the Joy-con gameplay ! Of course they want to use Smash to secure Arms ! There no comparison to make with a JRPG where the majority of the mothership titles are sold by their rivals !

I really hope what you put in quotation marks is not what you understand of my argument. I'll try again, just in case : there's many marketing opportunities to make, and there's nothing Tales of related to promote wich lines up well with the FP2 period. Worst : instead there's competition in regards of Tales of (Tales of Arise being released everywhere but not on the Switch, Nintendo won't promote a game in current competition which could lower the sells of their own games).

BUT ! If a new Tales of game is announced for Switch, even a new port, on the 2020-21 period... it will completely turn the tables, and then, I could definitively see Lloyd with more than a decent chance to be on the FP2.

This is what I hope. In my book, that's the only way Lloyd could become a frontrunner.
 
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Clumsyzephyr

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No it's the fact that Banjo is indeed, what we call an exception, that makes my argument strong. The purpose of an exception is to be rare. That's where I stand : Lloyd has low (not zero) chance because it seems that DLCs are focusing on marketing moves. There probably will be one or two DLC which won't be chosen on these factors, but it makes the competition very tight for Lloyd, since a lot of other characters are very demanded. Everybody seem to think their characters is THE choice to be made to make a fan service DLC...

But Arms is being "resurrected" by Nintendo ! Arms was supposed to be one the first flaghship title of Switch, promoting the Joy-con gameplay ! Of course they want to use Smash to secure Arms ! There no comparison to make with a JRPG where the majority of the mothership titles are sold by their rivals !

I really hope what you put in quotation marks is not what you understand of my argument. I'll try again, just in case : there's many marketing opportunities to make, and there's nothing Tales of related to promote wich lines up well with the FP2 period. Worst : instead there's competition in regards of Tales of (Tales of Arise being released everywhere but not on the Switch, Nintendo won't promote a game in current competition which could lower the sells of their own games).

BUT ! If a new Tales of game is announced for Switch, even a new port, on the 2020-21 period... it will completely turn the tables, and then, I could definitively see Lloyd with more than a decent chance to be on the FP2.

This is what I hope. In my book, that's the only way Lloyd could become a frontrunner.
This is going in with the assumption that not more tales games would come to switch after Vesperia, a game that as far as we know did really well on the switch. Also, "There no comparison to make with a JRPG where the majority of the mothership titles are sold by their rivals!" You do know that Persona is a core franchise to Sony, right? None of the mainline games have been on a nintendo console, as opposed to Tales of that started on the Famicom. But honestly, if it HAS to market a series that's shown up on the switch before, then it still works since Vesperia released last year. That's more than you can say for Persona 5.
 
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