The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - LLOYD SURVIVES THE SLAUGHTER!

VashTehStampede

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Honestly, in a perfect world. Lloyd should be released at the E3. its just 2 days before the *Tales of Festival 2020* . That would mean that we supposed to have Tales of Crestoria (Mobile Game), Tales of Arise(New Mainline Title) and Lloyd in Smash all in the same year, that would be a perfect year for *Tales Of* and a awesome way to celebrate the 25th Anniversary
 

frozolloyd

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I'd say about 50 percent for Lloyd. I think the lack of any Tales content in base and DLC thus far bodes pretty well for Lloyd, as well as the lack of his mii costume thus far. I don't think its 100 percent right now (he still technically is competing with Tekken and other characters in his series) but I definitely think that he is a character that most likely was mentioned by Sakurai when discussing DLC. The one thing I'm still wondering about though is what the NoA source (Sabi and Fatman mentions the person) meant by "Tales of news" back in the November. Keep in this mind this guy knew about Links awakening, Banjo, Terry and was the first person to out right say "no Capcom and Bamco" with FP 5. I'm wondering if the news was smash related or if we are getting a port of some tales game this year as well to the switch(Symphonia remastered would be great, but I personally would love Tales of Innocence being localized).
 
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Ypsen

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Not so high, unfortunately, there's too many other worthy fighters even if 6 slots sounds like a lot.

ToS may be my second favorite game and Tales of my second favorite franchise, I must admit there's a lot of characters who also diserve their place in Smash, and have also a lot of support (and I fing Lloyd's fanbase way too calm and passive)

Byleth trailer and recent Sakurai's interview presents very bad omen for Lloyd's chance.

Even if we all admit in this thread, that the "too many swordmen" is total BS, Sakurai finally gave in. Sothis comments about too many swordfighters, Sakurai asking for not being too mad, and his recent interview where he admits there's too many swordfighters... There will be more Swordfighters, for sure, but not so many, and Sakurai would chose very iconic characters like Dante to minimize the backlash.
In this same interview, he also stated that's Nintendo who choose the characters for obvious marketing reasons. And I don't see why they would promote Tales of, with Arise being in all of platforms but not on the Switch. There's a lot of other games franchise to make profit.

So, to sum up :
1)Lloyd is the arch nemesis of the annoying but rewarded "another lame anime swordfighter" mentality.
2) Even if he's moveset would translate very well on Smash, it's not that unique. Lloyd is basically a comboist who uses TP for artes. And these two type of gameplay are already used. And the Dual fighter system is not characteristic of Tales of Symphonia Gameplay.
3) He comes from a licence with no good marketing opportunities with Nintendo in the present times.
4) Huge competition


So yeah, at very best Lloyd has 50% chance to get in (wich still is a lot), but I would give him a 30% chance, personally.
 
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IWantMyBurd

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Not so high, unfortunately, there's too many other worthy fighters even if 6 slots sounds like a lot.

ToS may be my second favorite game and Tales of my second favorite franchise, I must admit there's a lot of characters who also diserve their place in Smash, and have also a lot of support (and I fing Lloyd's fanbase way too calm and passive)

Byleth trailer and recent Sakurai's interview presents very bad omen for Lloyd's chance.

Even if we all admit in this thread, that the "too many swordmen" is total BS, Sakurai finally gave in. Sothis comments about too many swordfighters, Sakurai asking for not being too mad, and his recent interview where he admits there's too many swordfighters... There will be more Swordfighters, for sure, but not so many, and Sakurai would chose very iconic characters like Dante to minimize the backlash.
In this same interview, he also stated that's Nintendo who choose the characters for obvious marketing reasons. And I don't see why they would promote Tales of, with Arise being in all of platforms but not on the Switch. There's a lot of other games franchise to make profit.

So, to sum up :
1)Lloyd is the arch nemesis of the annoying but rewarded "another lame anime swordfighter" mentality.
2) Even if he's moveset would translate very well on Smash, it's not that unique. Lloyd is basically a comboist who uses TP for artes. And these two type of gameplay are already used. And the Dual fighter system is not characteristic of Tales of Symphonia Gameplay.
3) He comes from a licence with no good marketing opportunities with Nintendo in the present times.
4) Huge competition


So yeah, at very best Lloyd has 50% chance to get in (wich still is a lot), but I would give him a 30% chance, personally.
Fair points, but as Sakurai said, the fighter pass contents were locked in at the time of recording (November). I wouldn't be so sure that the developments since the Byleth reveal affect Lloyd's chances of having been picked. Besides, I don't even think the complaints have really been about swordsmen lately. With Hero, as I recall, people were more complaining that a Japanese character they didn't know or care about got it. With Byleth, it was largely the fact that they're from Fire Emblem. Given that people want Sora and Dante, I don't think having swords lowers Lloyd's chances.

On the topic of marketing opportunities with Nintendo: Banjo? Terry?

Competition is definitely something to consider, though. Though I did read today that Disney outright refused Sora in Smash, so there's one less potential competitor for a slot.

I don't really know how much Lloyd has going for him at this point, but really, I don't think there's anything more going against him than for any other possible candidate
 

Cadillac

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tumblr_nsdv4kMYLz1tgb323o1_400.png

I found this on Google

Also, the "competitor" for a Tales rep seems to be Yuri. I don't really know how he fights, so can anyone explain how these two are different and unique to each other?
 
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Fatmanonice

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View attachment 261730
I found this on Google

Also, the "competitor" for a Tales rep seems to be Yuri. I don't really know how he fights, so can anyone explain how these two are different and unique to each other?
Yuri's supposedly more popular with the Tales fanbase but Lloyd's basically the face of the Tales franchise. It's kind of like a Marth situation with Fire Emblem. Yes, Marth is basically the figurehead of the series but you can probably count on almost two hands just Lords that are more popular than Marth. Lloyd's situation is much better. He's not only the crossover king for the series but for Namco as a whole he is only second to Pac-Man and Heihachi. Lloyd's connection with not only the Smash fanbase but Nintendo fanbase is pretty strong too. Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Symphonia 2 were Nintendo exclusives for awhile and so was Soul Calibur Legends. Obviously, he was a Mii costume in Smash 4 and even Sakurai agreed that "who else but (Quagmire) Lloyd" to represent the Tales series as a whole. Beyond this, Lloyd is very prominent in fan made Smash games, just like Geno, which is why they're often talked about in close proximity.
 

cosmicB

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Yuri's supposedly more popular with the Tales fanbase but Lloyd's basically the face of the Tales franchise. It's kind of like a Marth situation with Fire Emblem. Yes, Marth is basically the figurehead of the series but you can probably count on almost two hands just Lords that are more popular than Marth. Lloyd's situation is much better. He's not only the crossover king for the series but for Namco as a whole he is only second to Pac-Man and Heihachi. Lloyd's connection with not only the Smash fanbase but Nintendo fanbase is pretty strong too. Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Symphonia 2 were Nintendo exclusives for awhile and so was Soul Calibur Legends. Obviously, he was a Mii costume in Smash 4 and even Sakurai agreed that "who else but (Quagmire) Lloyd" to represent the Tales series as a whole. Beyond this, Lloyd is very prominent in fan made Smash games, just like Geno, which is why they're often talked about in close proximity.
He's not really any more of a cross-over king than the rest of the popular characters since the cross-overs that exist for the most part are just straight up Tales cross-overs. He may have Soul Calibur Legends, but Yuri has two Project X Zone games that Lloyd wasn't in, both of which were bigger worldwide sellers than Legends.

There's not really a face of the franchise (which for stuff like this usually just means it defaults to the first one which is Cress), but Yuri is much closer to one than Lloyd is. What Lloyd has going for him is western nostalgia, but I'm not sure if that would be enough to get him in over Yuri, especially now that Yuri has a decently-sized Nintendo connection as well. It really could go either way.


Edit: Really, look at any Tales of Festival key visuals. Lloyd is almost NEVER front and center while Yuri is a lot of the time (not always). Namco doesn't really use Lloyd as a huge advertising point where it matters.

Right now, I think if a Tales protagonist is happening and we assume Yuri and Lloyd are the two big options, it's like 60/40 in Lloyd's favor. This isn't taking into account the potential for future advertising that we now know can be a big deal for Nintendo, in which case Alphen might be a real possibility even if Arise isn't coming to Switch.
 
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Cadillac

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That's cool and all, but can someone tell me what factors make them cool and unique? No one bothered to answer my question.
 
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Fatmanonice

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That's cool and all, but can someone tell me what factors make them cool and unique? No one bothered to answer my question.
Lloyd? Not a huge fan of the Tales series but I loved Symphonia. Someone could definitely do this better but here's what separates Lloyd from other sword fighters:

-He fights with two swords and he uses them both offensively and defensively.

-He's very physical and in your face. I guess going with classic RPG tropes, he's a berserker. He's reckless and most of his signature attacks are him practically him throwing himself at his opponent. One of his strongest attacks is a full on shoulder check. Despite being a sword user, Lloyd fights very up close and personal.

-Team mechanics are very important to the Tales series especially in the face that they're action RPGs that play out in real time. Everyone plays a part in battle and things usually quickly go to **** if even one team mate is downed. This is why I think, if Lloyd was playable, they would try to find some way to incorporate this into him.
 

Ypsen

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That's cool and all, but can someone tell me what factors make them cool and unique? No one bothered to answer my question.
Lloyd

A lot of Tales of protagonists are pretty intercheangeable since they use a lot of similar Artes (techniques). They all own some signature moves though.

Lloyd has this particularity to mix a lot of artes into one arte. Other Protagonist do the same, but he's the one who got a load of mixed artes.
Basically, if Lloyd knows a move, he will fuse it with any other move he knows to make anew.


Lloyd has also access to what's called an "Exsphere", a jewel enhancing his combat abilities. In his original game, it allows him to learn passive skills, but also depending of what type of sphere he uses, Lloyd will learn one of two type of fighting style : one with more combo and range attacks, and the other one more based on brute force which can easily stagger the opponents.
Lloyd is the only protagonist of the Tales of Series to have this characteristic to learn two different set of artes. So if Sakurai would want to make him unique and be faithful to his source material, he may base his his gameplay on that aspect.
Lloyd can also enter into an "overlimit" stance, which is the fury system of Tales of. In Symphonia, there's no gauge or special abilities for the overlimit. It's really short and only make the player invincible.


As for his weakness, Lloyd can't fight very efficiently in mld air. I don't think it's a cannon statement, since it's due to ToS mechanics where back in the time, midair combat was not very developed in Tales of. But in the sequel of ToS, where Emil, the protagonist, is one or the best aerial fighter of Tales of Series. Funny enough, Lloyd was even worst in midair in this sequel.

A Vidéo showcasing his artes :

Yuri

While Lloyd fights with two swords and mix his own artes, Yuri likes to mix swordplay and some martial arts, including his fist and feet. Yuri has a lot of different artes which are way diverses than Lloyd's.

Yuri and Tales of Vesperia have several features.

First, Yuri like Lloyd has access to a "Blastia" which is essentially the same thing that Lloyd's Exsphere. It enhances Yuri's fighting abilities but he can't learn two different fighting style like Lloyd. He does have way more passives skills, wich he learns in a very classic way : collecting skill points and equipping weapons which have their own set of skills. It's not very unique and characteristics of Tales of, though.

Then the overlimit system, way more exploited in ToV. Yuri has several level of overlimit all represented by a gauge and a number. Each level allows him to use special artes (burst artes), the higher level of his overlimit is, the more powerful his artes are. At high level, he can use his mystic arte (savage wolf fury). Depending of his passive skills, Yuri does different burst artes which are affiliated to the four elements.
More importantly, the overlimit allows him to do endless combo.


Finally, the Fatal Strike mechanics, wich are exclusives to Tales of Vesperia. So if Yuri would make it to Smash, I won't be surprised he would have a gameplay based around that. The FS are powerful hits which can OHKO any wild monster and deal high damages to Bosses. During combo, after using an arte, a color circle appears on an ennemy. Depending of the colour the strike is different : there are three colours and three FS, depending of the direction of the knockback (wich also depends of the artes). After the opponent is sent flying, Yuri will do a FS : Blue if it's upward, Red downward, and green if the opponents his sent forward.

Yuri's artes exhibition :
 
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Cadillac

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Lloyd? Not a huge fan of the Tales series but I loved Symphonia. Someone could definitely do this better but here's what separates Lloyd from other sword fighters:

-He fights with two swords and he uses them both offensively and defensively.

-He's very physical and in your face. I guess going with classic RPG tropes, he's a berserker. He's reckless and most of his signature attacks are him practically him throwing himself at his opponent. One of his strongest attacks is a full on shoulder check. Despite being a sword user, Lloyd fights very up close and personal.

-Team mechanics are very important to the Tales series especially in the face that they're action RPGs that play out in real time. Everyone plays a part in battle and things usually quickly go to **** if even one team mate is downed. This is why I think, if Lloyd was playable, they would try to find some way to incorporate this into him.
Ok then. What about Yuri? What makes him unique?
Edit: Nvm, ignore this.
 
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VashTehStampede

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Lloyd

A lot of Tales of protagonists are pretty intercheangeable since they use a lot of similar Artes (techniques). They all own some signature moves though.

Lloyd has this particularity to mix a lot of artes into one arte. Other Protagonist do the same, but he's the one who got a load of mixed artes.
Basically, if Lloyd knows a move, he will fuse it with any other move he knows to make anew.


Lloyd has also access to what's called an "Exsphere", a jewel enhancing his combat abilities. In his original game, it allows him to learn passive skills, but also depending of what type of sphere he uses, Lloyd will learn one of two type of fighting style : one with more combo and range attacks, and the other one more based on brute force which can easily stagger the opponents.
Lloyd is the only protagonist of the Tales of Series to have this characteristic to learn two different set of artes. So if Sakurai would want to make him unique and be faithful to his source material, he may base his his gameplay on that aspect.
Lloyd can also enter into an "overlimit" stance, which is the fury system of Tales of. In Symphonia, there's no gauge or special abilities for the overlimit. It's really short and only make the player invincible.


As for his weakness, Lloyd can't fight very efficiently in mld air. I don't think it's a cannon statement, since it's due to ToS mechanics where back in the time, midair combat was not very developed in Tales of. But in the sequel of ToS, where Emil, the protagonist, is one or the best aerial fighter of Tales of Series. Funny enough, Lloyd was even worst in midair in this sequel.

A Vidéo showcasing his artes :

Yuri

While Lloyd fights with two swords and mix his own artes, Yuri likes to mix swordplay and some martial arts, including his fist and feet. Yuri has a lot of different artes which are way diverses than Lloyd's.

Yuri and Tales of Vesperia have several features.

First, Yuri like Lloyd has access to a "Blastia" which is essentially the same thing that Lloyd's Exsphere. It enhances Yuri's fighting abilities but he can't learn two different fighting style like Lloyd. He does have way more passives skills, wich he learns in a very classic way : collecting skill points and equipping weapons which have their own set of skills. It's not very unique and characteristics of Tales of, though.

Then the overlimit system, way more exploited in ToV. Yuri has several level of overlimit all represented by a gauge and a number. Each level allows him to use special artes (burst artes), the higher level of his overlimit is, the more powerful his artes are. At high level, he can use his mystic arte (savage wolf fury). Depending of his passive skills, Yuri does different burst artes which are affiliated to the four elements.
More importantly, the overlimit allows him to do endless combo.


Finally, the Fatal Strike mechanics, wich are exclusives to Tales of Vesperia. So if Yuri would make it to Smash, I won't be surprised he would have a gameplay based around that. The FS are powerful hits which can OHKO any wild monster and deal high damages to Bosses. During combo, after using an arte, a color circle appears on an ennemy. Depending of the colour the strike is different : there are three colours and three FS, depending of the direction of the knockback (wich also depends of the artes). After the opponent is sent flying, Yuri will do a FS : Blue if it's upward, Red downward, and green if the opponents his sent forward.

Yuri's artes exhibition :

Couple things wrong here, Overlimit in Symphonia does allow special abilities, some cant be pulled off unless its on. Also while at first glance his air combat could seem lack luster, Ex gems in the game allow extra combos in mid air. I'd also argue Lloyd is one of the more nimble Tales protags as his moves often have him flying across the map. Tempest/Twin Tiger blade/Rising Falcon and so on are all great moves that combo into others that all take place in mid air.
 

Ypsen

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Couple things wrong here, Overlimit in Symphonia does allow special abilities, some cant be pulled off unless its on. Also while at first glance his air combat could seem lack luster, Ex gems in the game allow extra combos in mid air. I'd also argue Lloyd is one of the more nimble Tales protags as his moves often have him flying across the map. Tempest/Twin Tiger blade/Rising Falcon and so on are all great moves that combo into others that all take place in mid air.
I never knew there was special techniques which can't be triggered outside Overlimits (aside the Hi-ougi). Or maybe you're talking about some ex-skills ? Since it only depended of some passive skills, I didn't specify that indeed, overlimit can be somewhat enhanced by the exsphere.

As for midair combat, of course Lloyd can fight in midair, and has combo, but he really pale in comparison to the following Tales Protagonist (especially Emil, who shares the same game, even if Lloyd is cripple by the level lock, he still has a decent amount of arte but still ridiculously outshined by Emil in the air).
 
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I do feel like air combat would be his most obvious weakness. Not like, Little Mac levels of dire, but his mobility and air attacks simply wouldn't be as good as his grounded ones. It doesn't need to be his only one, or even his biggest one, but considering how it feels in Symphonia, I don't imagine Lloyd having a very strong air game.
 

VashTehStampede

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I dont understand how air combat is a weakness, translation to smash isn't something that's limiting in that sense. Marth and the FE crew dont jump in their games but most of them have some of the best air combat in smash. Little mac as an example is taking someone who literally doesnt use their feet to kick or fight with only based on movement which is why little mac is so damn quick. It also doesnt seem to make sense to me how Air combat is a "Weakness" to lloyd but somehow isn't mentioned for Yuri? If anything Yuri is worse off when including artes. I feel like going over Air combat in general doesnt hurt or help Lloyd or any character for the matter.
 

Ypsen

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I dont understand how air combat is a weakness, translation to smash isn't something that's limiting in that sense. Marth and the FE crew dont jump in their games but most of them have some of the best air combat in smash. Little mac as an example is taking someone who literally doesnt use their feet to kick or fight with only based on movement which is why little mac is so damn quick. It also doesnt seem to make sense to me how Air combat is a "Weakness" to lloyd but somehow isn't mentioned for Yuri? If anything Yuri is worse off when including artes. I feel like going over Air combat in general doesnt hurt or help Lloyd or any character for the matter.
Yuri is waaaaaay better than Lloyd in midair. As I said, it mainly due to ToS gameplay limitations (even if Lloyd sucks even more in ToS:DotNW).

It was just an assumption. He doesn't need to have a huge weakness anyway (like Joker and Banjo). But yeah, if Lloyd would have a downside to balance a major strength (like really strong combos), I won't be surprised if he finally gets a lackluster air game. I could imagine for example, that Lloyd needs to start his combo grounded to finally follow up his opponent to fight in the air, but would be quite feeble if he starts fighting in mid air, like he does in ToS.
 
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I don't think balance has to come in the form of "significant identifiable weakness", I think you can balance out his great combo ability just by giving him slightly lower stats in a number of areas.
 
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I've finally created a Classic Mode that I think I'm proud of. Ordered by debut to Smash, except Ganondorf, I have picked out a route for him that I think fits the character and hasn't technically been done yet.

Classic Mode: Two Swords are Better than One…?
The theme for this Classic Mode Route is that there are two sword-using opponents in every fight.
  1. Link & Young Link | Great Bay | Tales of Symphonia Battle Medley
  2. Marth & Roy | Arena Ferox | Fatalize
  3. Pit & Dark Pit | Palutena’s Temple | Beat the Angel
  4. Toon Link & Ike | Spirit Train | Keep Your Guard Up!
  5. Shulk & Mii Swordfighter | Gaur Plains | Fighting of the Spirit
  6. Cloud & Hero | Yggdrasil’s Altar | The Law of the Battle
    1. If Hero has not been purchased, then Hero is replaced with Meta Knight, and the stage becomes Midgar.
  7. Bonus Game
  8. Ganondorf, then Ganon | Ganon’s Castle Arena | It Can Waver and Fight (Remix) (Ganondorf), Final Destination (Ganon)

It might seem a little similar to Roy's, but it's the combination of Roy's and Banjo & Kazooie's routes that gives it a unique flavor. The key is enemies - stage - music track. I did make some assumptions with the music, though.
 
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I've finally created a Classic Mode that I think I'm proud of. Ordered by debut to Smash, except Ganondorf, I have picked out a route for him that I think fits the character and hasn't technically been done yet.

Classic Mode: Two Swords are Better than One…?
The theme for this Classic Mode Route is that there are two sword-using opponents in every fight.
  1. Link & Young Link | Great Bay | Tales of Symphonia Battle Medley
  2. Marth & Roy | Arena Ferox | Fatalize
  3. Pit & Dark Pit | Palutena’s Temple | Beat the Angel
  4. Toon Link & Ike | Spirit Train | Keep Your Guard Up!
  5. Shulk & Mii Swordfighter | Gaur Plains | Fighting of the Spirit
  6. Cloud & Hero | Yggdrasil’s Altar | The Law of the Battle
    1. If Hero has not been purchased, then Hero is replaced with Meta Knight, and the stage becomes Midgar.
  7. Bonus Game
  8. Ganondorf, then Ganon | Ganon’s Castle Arena | It Can Waver and Fight (Remix) (Ganondorf), Final Destination (Ganon)

It might seem a little similar to Roy's, but it's the combination of Roy's and Banjo & Kazooie's routes that gives it a unique flavor. The key is enemies - stage - music track. I did make some assumptions with the music, though.
I like this idea a lot!
Genis-Sage-tales-of-symphonia-20057184-720-405.jpg

If I were to add something is to have mii fighters of genis, collete and whoever could get a ToS mii, to help Lloyd fight in some of those classic mode fights.
*secretly praying for a genis mii costume to actually happen…*
 
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Hey there, coming to give you guys support. Much like Geno, I know that Lloyd's been a longtime requested/wanted character since at least the Brawl days and while Fire Emblem oversaturation has made it harder for JRPG protagonists to get acceptance in Smash, I want to see this long wanted character to get his dues.
 
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