The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - LLOYD SURVIVES THE SLAUGHTER!

blueneuronDOTnet

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#1
THE DEFINITIVE
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LLOYD IRVING THREAD

I haven't had much to do over this summer break, so I've been creating some Lloyd-related content.
Summer is coming to an end, so since I'll be busy with grad school soon enough, I figured that now
would be a good time to create that Lloyd Irving dump thread I've been meaning to make.
Cheers.

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00 - Literally Who: Who is Lloyd Irving?
Lloyd Irving (ロイド・アーヴィング Roido Aavingu?) is the main protagonist of Tales of Symphonia, the fifth major release in the Tales series. Once a simple country boy, Lloyd is thrust into the outside world following a raid on his village. The Chosen of Regeneration is one of his closest friends, and after being exiled from his hometown of Iselia, Lloyd joins her on the Journey of Regeneration. Although the young warrior himself plays no part in the prophecy, he is still a strong optimist and a fair leader.
- Read more.
Lloyd has brown eyes along with spiky brown hair. He wears a long-sleeved red shirt with multiple metallic dots at the front, and black jeans, which are held up by suspenders. At the collar of his shirt, a long white fabric is fitted in the front of the collar and hangs from both sides of the collar. Lloyd wears matching red gloves and at his right glove, his Exsphere rests there. He also wears two belts around his waist, from which the sheaths of his swords hang. Finally, Lloyd's footwear consists of matching boots which is patterned with small metallic plates.

Because he lives in an area that has a peace treaty with the Desians, Lloyd never actually understands how people are suffering at the hands of the organization. This causes him to be rather naive and short-tempered. He tends to make very rash decisions, regardless of what consequences his actions may have, claiming he is doing it for Colette. However, when it all ends wrong, he realizes his mistakes and attempts to repent for them. Under the guide of Kratos, he eventually matures through the journey, having witnessed people truly suffer. When he understands that people have to be sacrificed everywhere for the sake of others, Lloyd decides to stop "clinging to the Chosen", as Kratos describes it, and fight with his own strength and new ideals. What he wants is a world without sacrifices.

Lloyd uses skill and logic to make up for what he lacks in knowledge, which is often a joke throughout the series as he fails to answer various educational questions. He is generally idealistic, and tries to do what he believes is best for the worlds of Sylvarant and Tethe'alla. As the story progresses, Kratos compares Lloyd to Mithos, saying the only difference between them is that Lloyd is capable of acknowledging his own mistakes. Another character named Tiga also compares Lloyd to Mithos by saying he is idealistic and very dearly wants to save both worlds, but Lloyd denies that he is like Mithos and claims he does not want to save the worlds through Mithos's methods, but in his own way without sacrifices and with the help of his friends.
- Read more.
Lloyd focuses on dealing melee physical damage, with concentrations in speed and combo building. Attacks such as Sonic Thrust and Sword Rain reflect his faster movements during battle, while sacrificing his damage output and durability, especially when compared to Presea Combatir. Like most swordsmen, his only ranged capabilities involve Demon Fang and related artes. In Dawn of the New World, Lloyd can use Blazing Tempestand Rising Phoenix as separate artes instead of altered artes.
- Read more.

01 - The Case for Lloyd: Why he might make it into Ultimate.

02 - Show me your Moves: Lloyd's likely moveset.
You can view an animated example of Lloyd's moveset here, but it goes a bit beyond that - if properly implemented, the arte system seen in the Tales games could make Lloyd one of the most interesting and unique fighters in the game. It's a bit tough to explain to someone who hasn't played a Tales game, so I'll let other Lloyd fans take a stab at it.

/u/Ricodyn's Take
I actually thought about Lloyd's addition, and a couple of other Tales characters, a long time ago, just for fun. Apparently I still have the file from almost 10 years ago =p.
Personally, I'd have the following specials for Lloyd:​
  • Neutral - Demon Fang (Charge for Double Demon Fang and Demonic Chaos)
  • Side - Sonic Thrust
  • Up - Tempest
  • Down - Beast
I like your Tiger Blade in the smash attack though, and the Guardian as his shield of course. Sword Rain would be the neutral attack spam. Maybe Rising Falcon could be a down or side air, as a meteor attack instead of a special?​
And while I like the Final Smash, something like a Unison Attack would also be awesome. Maybe something unique for Lloyd, in that he has slightly different Final Smashes depending on which special he activates it with. If you use Sonic Thrust, Zelos/Kratos could come in for Cross Thrust, if you use Beast, Genis could come in for Fiery Beast, etc.​
/v/'s Take

/u/playeriii's Take

I think a decent way to imagine it is Marths dancing blade but it's all of his moves. Throw in some pizazz and movements ala Bayo and you've pretty much got a Tales character

Icedragonadam's Take

A common thing with the newcomers in SSB4 is that most of them have a gimmick or quirk to their gameplay style. Especially the DLC newcomers.
Well luckily for Lloyd there is a gimmick that would make sense. The Tales series is known for categorizing it's special abilities with Base Artes(basic moves) and Arcane Artes(more advance) and combos are based Base Artes -> Arcane. In the case of the Symphonia it goes from Lvl1 -> Lvl2-> Lvl3.​
Now for Smash. Lloyd has many techs he can use but he can only be assigned to 4 Special Moves here and since this isn't a Tales game where you can just change it during battle or outside of that. You can't exactly do that here barring Custom moves. But then Tales of Graces gave me a solution to this problem. An Arte Tree.​
Tales of Graces battle system included a rather unique and fun basic attack system. It separated moves to A(basic attack) type and B(Special) moves. B moves use the natural Smash Bros special tree. But A moves instead used a tier branch system. There are 4 lvl techs here as seen here. Tales of Graces doesn't use mana. It uses what's called the Chain Capacity Cores which puts a limit on how much you can combo. A common easy combo is a Lvl1-> lvl2 > lvl3 > 4> B Move. Here's a menu of Asbel's A tree:​


03 - Fashion Show: Potential Costumes.

04 - Eye Candy: A Lloyd Amiibo Mock-Up.

05 - The Leading Contender: Why Lloyd would likely be picked over Yuri.
Arguments in favor of Yuri Lowell:
  1. More unique moveset.
    I'd say that this one is a bit absurd - most Tales characters would likely feature a fairly unique moveset, after all. Most artes would be new additions to Smash (both visually and functionally), and the particular grounded, "flycatcher"-esque approach most 3D Tales protagonists use brings plenty of fresh air to the table.
  2. Solid legacy within the series.
    That's fair, I'd say.
  3. Past exposure to Smash characters.
    This one seems very iffy to me. There are plenty of characters with exposure to Smash characters that not only never made it in, but were never even considered, and the vast majority of 3rd party characters (if not all of them - just covering my bases here, honestly) had never interacted with Smash characters prior to joining the roster. I don't see this point as any more potent or relevant than Lloyd's inclusion in Soul Calibur Legends.
  4. Most popular character within the Tales fandom.
    Ignoring the fact that this can be kind of a contentious point, I'd note that popularity within a particular fandom has never once been as big of a factor as global, universal fame. See Lucina over Chrom, Bowser Jr. over Waluigi, or Link over any other Zelda character. Sakurai cares far more about the broader consumer base recognizing a new character than he does about a much smaller fan base getting the particular character they like most - after all, the mere inclusion of a franchise is already supposed to be paying respect.
  5. Tales of Vesperia: DE releasing on the Switch soon.
    This is the worst point that I've seen brought up. The Super Smash Bros. Ultimate project plan (and thus the roster) was set in stone in 2015 - several years prior to the announcement (or even rumor) of ToV:DE. Historically speaking, this would be the biggest gap between roster lock down and promoted game announcement in Smash history, so it's a bit ridiculous to consider this a factor.
Arguments in favor of Lloyd Irving:
  1. Solid legacy within the series.
    As with Yuri, I think that this is a bit of a given.
  2. Most recognizable Tales character.
    ToS is not only the best selling Tales game out there (3.5 million between all versions), but it was also the first to really penetrate the western market, and no other Tales game has ever really managed to have as much of an impact on the west as ToS did - largely due to the fact that it didn't have much competition to deal with on the GameCube, became a must-have title, and then enjoyed solid sales across several remasters. Since mainstream fame is a major factor in roster selection, Lloyd stands the best chance out of the entire Tales cast.
  3. Received a DLC costume for Smash 4.
    This is probably one of the strongest signs that a character will make it in as a fighter, as it shows not only that they won the ballot (see #3), but also that they were considered commercially viable. Most importantly, one would be inclined to ask - if Lloyd wasn't the most likely Tales rep to join the roster, why would they have teased him, of all people?
  4. Lloyd was one of the Smash Ballot winners.
    In 2015, Nintendo ran a worldwide survey asking people who their most wanted newcomers would be. The viable characters with the highest votes were turned into characters added via DLC (Bayonetta, Cloud), and the runner ups were added as costumes (King K. Rool, Skull Kid, ...) for Mii fighters. Since one of those costumes was dedicated to Lloyd, we know that he did fairly well on the ballot.
  5. Core series appearances on Nintendo consoles.
    This is a big one, as the only exception ever made to this rule was for Cloud, one of the most requested characters on the ballot and one of the most iconic characters in gaming history.
  6. 3rd Party Smash Characters tend to be older iterations.
    Historically speaking, whenever there has been a choice between a newer rep and an older rep in a third party franchise, Sakurai has picked the older one (see Solid Snake over Raiden or Big Boss, classic Megaman over X, Cloud over Lightning, etc). Lloyd is the oldest Tales character that is actually famous enough to incorporate.
  7. Greatest and most consistent support within the Smash fandom.
    Among Smash fans, Lloyd has without a doubt been the most requested Tales character for a long time. He was featured in both Super Smash Flash 1 and Super Smash Flash 2, there are almost two dozen mods that try to work him into Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4, and he is brought up every single time a new Smash game looms on the horizon.
  8. Sakurai sees Lloyd as the obvious pick for a Tales representative.
    —The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?
    Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

    —For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]
    Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult.

06 - Deceptive Cups: Leaks involving Lloyd.

07 - Cruxis Agents: Media referencing Lloyd in Smash.

08 - Dorr's Propaganda: Signatures and Insignias.











09 - Dwarven Vowers: Lloyd Irving Supporters.

P.s.: Lloyd x Isaac best brothers.
 
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ryuu seika

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#3
I'm pretty sure a thread already exists for the character so I don't expect this one to stay open but you have my like for that first image.
The most iconic ToS location is almost certainly the altar room of the tower of salvation but it's very much a ToS location.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#4
I'm pretty sure a thread already exists for the character so I don't expect this one to stay open but you have my like for that first image.
There is, but it seemed pretty outdated, and I didn't really feel like it captured the character very well, so I figured I'd make my own.

The most iconic ToS location is almost certainly the altar room of the tower of salvation but it's very much a ToS location.
No doubt about it.
 

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#5

blueneuronDOTnet

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#6
Alright - thanks to LST's help and Icedragonadam's consent, it looks like the first post in the thread will be updated with the newer version once an admin has a chance to stop by. I'll transfer Adam's list of supporters over when the time comes.
 

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#7
Okay, there was some confusion. We no longer can easily make a user the "owner" of a thread, unless that user has an early enough post to replace the first post of the specific other owner.

Basically, blueneuronDOTnet was too new of a user to fix the issue.

I have re-split the threads and I apologize for the problem. Please carry on. :) I will make sure to update the link right away.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#10
My heart breaks yet again.

Updated to include various people's takes on Lloyd's potential moveset. Also added a new point to the arguments against Yuri:

Sakurai sees Lloyd as the obvious pick for a Tales representative.
—The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?
Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

—For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]
Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult.
Added the Japan leak, updated Lloyd vs Yuri.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#13
Updated the thread title. With Konami getting three representatives by way of Snake, Simon, and Richter, the hypothetical inclusion of Heihachi would no longer instakill Lloyd's chances, as we could see a Pacman-Heihachi-Lloyd trio for Namco. Here's to hoping.

Couldn't find the other thread for some reason so I'm coming here again to say that I still support. Lloyd is my boy, would very much like to see him.
Cheers.
 

NessAtc.

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#14
So I'm just gonna note here real quick that Wave 3 of Smash 4 mii costumes was a thing. And of the characters with costumes, it included:
-K Rool
-Chrom
-Black Knight
-Flying Man
-Lloyd

Of these characters, K Rool and Chrom are playable, Flying Man remains a stage hazard, and Black Knight is (presumably) MIA. We do not know Lloyd's status yet, though two characters being in the same wave as him making the jump to playable certainly has some unique implications.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#15
So I'm just gonna note here real quick that Wave 3 of Smash 4 mii costumes was a thing. And of the characters with costumes, it included:
-K Rool
-Chrom
-Black Knight
-Flying Man
-Lloyd

Of these characters, K Rool and Chrom are playable, Flying Man remains a stage hazard, and Black Knight is (presumably) MIA. We do not know Lloyd's status yet, though two characters being in the same wave as him making the jump to playable certainly has some unique implications.
Ooh, neat. I went ahead and did an extended write-up about this here.
 

Nazyrus

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#19
So have you seen the Japan Leak? https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/939cq1/the_leak_index_all_leaks_with_deadlines/

I find it to be plausible. It only contains bits of the supposed direct and it doesn't contradict with Vergeben and Loz's information at all right now.
Interesting, I will definitely keep an eye on that one, specially since the online service is coming in the second half of September as Nintendo said. That direct could easily happen around that time. Here's hoping…
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#20
Interesting, I will definitely keep an eye on that one, specially since the online service is coming in the second half of September as Nintendo said. That direct could easily happen around that time. Here's hoping…
I'll always hold out hope, but I think that anyone who would know about a September direct would also know about an August one, and they didn't mention it, so...
 

ryuu seika

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#21
Wow, I did not realise how many of Lloyd's costumes had him fully or partially topless. Dude really knows how to cater to the Smash fanbase!
Where's that first white costume come from, though? Replacing his anime tassels with a ninja mouth piece and actual scarf looks wrong to me.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#22
Wow, I did not realise how many of Lloyd's costumes had him fully or partially topless. Dude really knows how to cater to the Smash fanbase!
Where's that first white costume come from, though? Replacing his anime tassels with a ninja mouth piece and actual scarf looks wrong to me.
Tales of Asteria. It's my favorite Lloyd costume. Also, is it just me, or does the costume image no longer show up?
 
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blueneuronDOTnet

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#25
Added a new section dedicated to any media that mentions Lloyd in a Smash context. First link added is Pizzadudeman's latest video:

 
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#27
Hey guy's! With this guy's possibility on the horizon, and my general lack of knowledge, I'd like to hear from you guys on why he's beloved and what kind of unique things he can bring to Smash! I'm assuming he's not just another sword wielder lol xD
 

Nazyrus

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#28
Hey guy's! With this guy's possibility on the horizon, and my general lack of knowledge, I'd like to hear from you guys on why he's beloved and what kind of unique things he can bring to Smash! I'm assuming he's not just another sword wielder lol xD
He is … well, a DUAL sword wielder, to be precise. So he would be quite different from the other ones, visually speaking. That's a start…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh7usGddnyc

He has so many techs on his original game, I bet Sakurai could make him a high combo character like :ultbayonetta: but with sword attacks. So in other words… he could be one of the most OP sword fighters in Smash yet to be added. Some of his techs will actually remind you of Cloud's moveset in Smash… but it all depends on which techs does Sakurai want to use for his moveset. I'm pretty sure the OP post might have posted what he can do anyway. Plus yeah, he is definitely the icon of "Tales of" series, and Sakurai has proven he is more about adding characters we love, regardless of how much new they can bring. With the current roster, I wouldn't complain if he plays similar than this or that other character, I just like having him in, lol
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#29
Hey guy's! With this guy's possibility on the horizon, and my general lack of knowledge, I'd like to hear from you guys on why he's beloved and what kind of unique things he can bring to Smash! I'm assuming he's not just another sword wielder lol xD
He's beloved for a number of reasons - he's the definitive Tales representative and the protagonist of its most successful entry, as well as the first entry ever to break out in the west. He's also responsible for a lot of very iconic Tales scenes, like the cup of mystery (ToS Spoilers). Add to that a fairly unique design and a good - if, at times, childish - heart, and it's not difficult to see he's loved. Doesn't hurt that the Tales series is enormously successful.

As for being unique... He's already superficially unique due to the combination of his dual wielding style and his unique stature (think a slightly stumpier Mii character), but what would really set him apart is the arte system and the way it might translate into Smash. It's a bit difficult to explain to someone who hasn't played the game, but a simple way to put it is that it's a bit as if every special could branch into sub-specials, kind of like Marth's Side-B. It'd make for a unique fighting style that offers a lot of risky combo extension should you decide to bet on a read.
 
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FE_SLaDe

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#33
Tales of Symphonia was my favorite JRPG growing up and though I feel Fire Emblem has stolen most of the hype surrounding JRPG characters getting into smash (and not in a good way) I'd still love to see Lloyd make it in. Here's hoping we can all work together for the sake of a better smash. Please add me among the supporters.
 

blueneuronDOTnet

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#34
Tales of Symphonia was my favorite JRPG growing up and though I feel Fire Emblem has stolen most of the hype surrounding JRPG characters getting into smash (and not in a good way) I'd still love to see Lloyd make it in. Here's hoping we can all work together for the sake of a better smash. Please add me among the supporters.
Added you!
 

ryuu seika

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#37
He's beloved for a number of reasons - he's the definitive Tales representative and the protagonist of its most successful entry, as well as the first entry ever to break out in the west. He's also responsible for a lot of very iconic Tales scenes, like the cup of mystery (ToS Spoilers). Add to that a fairly unique design and a good - if, at times, childish - heart, and it's not difficult to see he's loved. Doesn't hurt that the Tales series is enormously successful.
Lloyd is neither the logo of the series (that's Cless) nor its most popular protagonist (that would be Leon) but he was the star of its breakout hit in the west and arguably its most memorable entry. He appears in every Tales series crossover and even made it into Soul Calibur at one point, so you'd better believe that Namco think he has pulling power.

He also represents the series in moveset, with all the series classic and most iconic attacks, as well as new twists thereon. But the way he does some of them and the basic attacks at his disposal are both uniquely suited to a dual swordsman. He may be left with an unused sword on occasion but, even then, the way his off weapon moves is surprisingly distinctive.

Lloyd is a dumb, gung ho, cheesy idealist who perfectly fits the lead role for the sort of JRPG that thrives on its character interactions and loveable cast. The subtle flair to his moves exudes that personality, while his lines definitely have their sarcastic, trollish and memeable moments for the community to latch on to.

And, appearance-wise, he's bold colours, spiky hair, openly worn sword(s), excessive straps and long, flowing scarf. All classic anime character tropes but, upon closer inspection, it's definitely clear that he was clothed by someone with zero understanding of human fashion or clothing function (his dwarven adoptive father). He has far more buttons than anyone has reason for, the "scarf" is just fabric strips attached at the neck and he wouldn't need the suspenders and second belt if he'd only button up his trousers. It's unique and weird but, so long as you don't question it too much, it looks pretty good.
 

Icedragonadam

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#39
I somehow hope that Nintendo pulls another Robin/Lucina and announce a livestream on August 28th which reveals Lloyd & maybe Cless as an echo.
 
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