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Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

Xinc

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I'M CHANGING MY MIND ABOUT COMPILING EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW.

Basically the core stuff is still there, but the patch changed a few things favorably about Ganon. In essence, jab, Dash Attack's end lag, and Wizkick have been buffed. (And Choke). Samus also got some good buffs too.

Kindly please discuss (again) with the changes in mind.

It won't oscillate too far, but it may scale to even. I have great respect for Samus mains and hope they will continue to give great additions to our thread.

Thank you.
 
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-_ellipsis_-

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Ummm....I know this is all just theory talk, since the patch is brand new, but from what I understand so far this is what I think:

Samus can kill dorf with nair earlier now. A nair near the ledge would either kill dorf or make him in a really bad spot for recovery. Nair damage also made it a bit safer on shield.

Samus has aerial mobility improvements that improve her keep away game and especially zair spacing. We can now throw out more zairs in a shorter amount of time, and move better horizontally while we do so. If zair wasn't a big issue for dorf, it might be now.

We're a little harder to kill off the top now, but that might not be significant. Upsmash is only one of Dorf's kill moves, albeit one of his very few moves that kill off the top. This may affect stage picking.

A boon for samus is that she can combo past 70% now, and for dorf maybe past 90%, mostly due to our new dash attack hitbox and aerial mobility.

Samus's fall speed may make her easier to land combos on, but her mobility may make her harder to juggle.
 

A2ZOMG

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Jab buff on Ganon is really important given it safely can pressure Samus's shield, cover SH approaches, among other things.
 

Xinc

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Alright, so I participated in the Peach Discord tournament yesterday and had a really rough time against Samus. I'd say that the projectile game really does make approaching a bit difficult. The long roll can make it difficult to punish some moves, but Ganon's DA does still combo well enough to up air or Fair. Wizkick can kill around 100 near the ledge with some rage.
 

Abbey Street

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Alright, so I participated in the Peach Discord tournament yesterday and had a really rough time against Samus. I'd say that the projectile game really does make approaching a bit difficult. The long roll can make it difficult to punish some moves, but Ganon's DA does still combo well enough to up air or Fair. Wizkick can kill around 100 near the ledge with some rage.
A mighty fine second place though. You and Yokon were doin' the Ganons proud.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Stages.

Wii U:
As far as starters go your best bet against Samus is probably Smashville. Other maps bar FD can allow Samus to bag an early kill off the top or use platforms to zone/camp you out well; on FD, approaching Samus is more difficult. Smashville provides a way to "circumvent" Samus's zoning without the risk of being set up on a high platform for a U-Air string.

When counterpicks come into play, you should ban T&C first because of the low ceiling and Samus being able to do all the camping and U-Air shenanigans she could do on Battlefield. DL should also be banned for the same reason. Duck Hunt doesn't seem like a plausible idea at first, but you can actually use the stage layout against Samus between the ducks, dog, and brush on the right side along with the high ceiling and ability to bag kills off the side. Ban Halberd immediately if it's available.

3DS:
As with the Wii U version, Battlefield and FD aren't dream stages in this matchup. You will learn to love Yoshi's Island though. A Samus that can't tech choke can get ruined by the slants on the map which make Choke D-tilt a thing if Ganon is facing downhill. Recovering is also a ton easier and you don't have a low ceiling to deal with.

When counterpicks come in, Arena Ferox is once again a great map as Ganon's range can easily hit through walls, ceilings and the things that come with each transition. The statues also negate Samus's projectiles. Focus your ban on Dream Land, then Prism Tower (Ganon can make the latter work). Duck Hunt is an alright stage that serves the same conveniences as its Wii U counterpart.
 
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Xinc

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A mighty fine second place though. You and Yokon were doin' the Ganons proud.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Stages.

Wii U:
As far as starters go your best bet against Samus is probably Smashville. Other maps bar FD can allow Samus to bag an early kill off the top or use platforms to zone/camp you out well; on FD, approaching Samus is more difficult. Smashville provides a way to "circumvent" Samus's zoning without the risk of being set up on a high platform for a U-Air string.

When counterpicks come into play, you should ban T&C first because of the low ceiling and Samus being able to do all the camping and U-Air shenanigans she could do on Battlefield. DL should also be banned for the same reason. Duck Hunt doesn't seem like a plausible idea at first, but you can actually use the stage layout against Samus between the ducks, dog, and brush on the right side along with the high ceiling and ability to bag kills off the side. Ban Halberd immediately if it's available.

3DS:
As with the Wii U version, Battlefield and FD aren't dream stages in this matchup. You will learn to love Yoshi's Island though. A Samus that can't tech choke can get ruined by the slants on the map which make Choke D-tilt a thing if Ganon is facing downhill. Recovering is also a ton easier and you don't have a low ceiling to deal with.

When counterpicks come in, Arena Ferox is once again a great map as Ganon's range can easily hit through walls, ceilings and the things that come with each transition. The statues also negate Samus's projectiles. Focus your ban on Dream Land, then Prism Tower (Ganon can make the latter work). Duck Hunt is an alright stage that serves the same conveniences as its Wii U counterpart.
Thanks Ephraim! I mean Abbey Street! I'll bear that in mind in the writeup. Should be up soon (not while I'm at work)
 

JHamron

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I can't really contribute for the Samus match-up specifically, as in my local scene there are no notable Samus players, but I would like to make myself known and contribute to these match-up discussions in the future.
 

Abbey Street

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I can't really contribute for the Samus match-up specifically, as in my local scene there are no notable Samus players, but I would like to make myself known and contribute to these match-up discussions in the future.
ZSS is up next - that'll be a good one to get in on as it's a toughie.
 

Litany

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Are you currently still looking for advice on the Samus matchup, or are you in the process of the writeup already?
 

Xinc

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Done with Samus

Character Description: Samus Aran is the protagonist of the Metroid science fiction action-adventure game series by Nintendo. She was introduced in the 1986 video game Metroid.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Thanks to the recent patch, Ganondorf now gets jab out of grounded choke. In lower percents, you can get another choke or land a wizkick. Her tech roll is not fast, around Sheik speed, so you can punish accordingly.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Samus is a fairly versatile character, with the ability to fade back and forth with the tether attack, missles, and her Charge Shot. Powershielding is a great way to block, and DA is a good way to pierce through any holes in her defense. It temporarily makes Ganon's hitbox smaller, which can help avoid Zair. Grounded Wizkick clashes with missiles (not super missiles), Forward tilt clashes with any missile, Dash Attack will clank with Missiles. A fresh fair or Bair will clash with a fully charged Charge Shot.

Understanding the Matchup:
Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. Samus is able to maintain a good keepaway game thanks to her projectiles. However, the nature of her projectiles will make it difficult for her to spam.

Ganon struggles to approach, which means the wall Samus puts up can prove to be a challenge.
This doesn’t mean Ganon will suffer immensely. Ganon can powershield the projectiles away. His goal is to break Samus's zoning by approaching, and hitting her hard. Baiting Samus' grab is a good idea since it's laggy, but the range is fairly big, so you might want to exercise caution. Walking may also be another option better than running, since you can swat extra damage on Samus if she gets a little bit careless with spacing.

Ganon himself does really well when he lands a dash attack (weak hit) for a castle flip. The sheer power and knockback will put Samus in an awkward position, upwards. In addition, a grab is a great way to land around good damage on Samus, as down throw to nair nets around 29-30 and also send Samus in an uncomfortable diagonally upwards position. Down throw to up air will work at medium percent.

If you overextend, it’s best for you to regain some ground before resetting situation. That way you won’t eat up too much extra damage. Samus has a good combo game with her aerial juggles, especially up air. Backing away can mitigate unnecessary damage you take.

Snuffing approach: Projectiles will usually be thrown at you. This includes Zair and missles. It's possible for Samus to land a throw (usually down throw) for fair followups. Powershield, and try not to commit to any laggy options unless you're sure the hit will land.

IF CAUGHT ABOVE: Samus will usually go for up airs for when you get back down, or hit you with an up air or Up B for a combo finisher if you’re at higher percent to get a kill. Be careful about up air since it juggles easily. In other words, using your double jump or air dodge to escape may be a great idea, but it can be read. Air dodge with caution, since although the Up air won’t kill, it’ll position her for another up air, since it will still push you up.
Remember that Samus has a good tether grab so it's a bit easier to kill her from up high rather than on the edge, unless you're positioned perfectly for an edgeguard through up air or lingering Fair hitbox. Samus is fairly floaty, so trapping her in the air is also a good option, as her landing options are average. Landing a choke can lead to a chain of chokes, but Ganon gets no free kill options out of outrageous percentages from choke, since jab is the only non-teched followup. Feel free to utilize the aerial variant (Aerudo) as well. Also, be aware that the Aerudo deals more damage than regular flame choke and has a slightly faster startup, and can lead to another grounded choke.

Gaining center stage control matters in this matchup, since you’re trying to limit Samus' movement options, but also be wary about what Samus does. Cutting off the distance itself isn't good enough since Samus can come in with a grab and get a lot of damage off you. Also beware of a rogue Dash Attacker from Samus. It sends up at an upwards trajectory, making it easy to string up airs, or end with a Nair. But getting stage control also helps mitigates any risks you may take from getting knocked offstage since it becomes harder to knock you out. In addition, getting center stage lessens movement options and can prompt her to approach you, which can be advantageous to us. The buff from the jab allows us to beat Samus' approaches in the short hop or pressure Samus' shield.

Punishing a Whiff Hit: Samus' grab is the most punishable option, as well as up-B out of shield in a non-platform stage. Depending on distance, you can follow up with Forward Smash, forward or down tilt, grab, up air, Wizkick (either variant), and down smash for optimal damage dealing. Punishing Dash Attack, one of Samus' more common combo starters, can be done after anticipating where Samus will end up after the DA. Choke and grab (space dependent) are possible followups and can ruin Samus' momentum.

Recovering: Samus has access to a spike that only truly spikes when her opponent is directly under her. Otherwise, it sends them the direction it hit them at a diagonally down angle. Recovering low is not a bad idea since Samus only has that spike or Bair as an option, but a seasoned Samus will be able to read your recovery easily. (Get ready to tech!) Doing it early can be good too, though, since you could evade the hitbox and have your grab or uppercut activate first (You generally want the grab since uppercut is a hitbox and then both Ganon's and Samus' hit will clash. Recovering up high isn't bad either, but fast fall if needed since Samus might be tempted to hit you with Bair, Nair, or Fair. Saving your second jump will also go a long way, as it will prevent you from getting baited as well as allow you to return onstage safely, as well as safely intercept an edgeguard attempt. Ganondorf's recovery gives a lot of vertical distance, so recovering from below is not a bad idea at all. Also feel free to hold back when recovering to give that uppercut, as it'll push her away and give you time to get back on stage safely.
Of course, mixing up your recovery is extremely vital. Being too predictable is just asking to get intercepted.
Against a Samus trying to land: Wizard's Foot (Wizkick) is great at covering landings if you're unsure what to do. It's a fast and relatively powerful move that can cancel at the ledge. Samus and is floaty, which means it’s easier to anticipate where Samus will be landing. Up air clashes with down air, but can kill at higher percent, or just simply send Samus in an awkward upwards angle. A dash attack is also another viable option, sending Samus back into the air and killing at higher percents, or the weak hit setting up for a castle flip.
Aerial Approach: It's really important to realize that Samus's aerials are outranged by Ganon's aerials, especially Nair. If Samus is in the air and you powershield a Zair, you can Full Jump and Nair to swat Samus away.

Grabs: Ganondorf's main grab in this matchup are the down throw and the forward throw to rack damage. Down throw racks up damage, especially with the new neutral air or up air followup. Up air and Nair send her in awkward positions where they have to get back on the ground. BUT… Up throw sends your opponent at an awkward upwards trajectory where you can reset the situation with Samus on top, and wanting to come back down. You can punish attempts to come back down, which prevents her from going back to playing keepaway against you. Back throw serves a decent use if you're trying to gimp Samus by getting her off the stage and intercepting her Up-B or Zair.

Edgeguarding: Samus' recovery game is not very good. A panicked tether recovery can be intercepted by tipman up air, or bair. Aerials, especially dair and Down B, will clash with her up B, which can lead to an early stock loss for Samus.

Samus's primary method of recovering from the ledge against you is to either throw a missile or charge shot at you to swat you away. Both of these are blocked by shield, and punished accordingly. Many Samus' like to Zair or Fair as recovery from the ledge. You can also punish these with a powershield/shield + Up air.


Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO. It can also hit a projectile Samus throws to extend its duration and catch Samus in it, before hitting him for massive damage and knockback, potentially killing him insanely early.
Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. It can bypass Samus's usual projectile wall in a pinch, and send him offstage at an awkward angle. Be sure not to overuse this, however, as it is easily punished.

Stages to consider:

Smashville is the best bet. Samus doesn't get the ability to trap you on platforms with her up airs like in BF, nor can she camp us with her projectiles and make approaches difficult in FD. She doesn't have enough room to camp, and also loses out on juggles.

Duck Hunt is a wide stage, meaning you can get camped, but the ducks help with stale moves and the high blast zones make it difficult for Samus to land an up air kill against you. It benefits Samus more than you, especially the right side thanks to the tree that can help you get a sweetspotted up smash. The higher ceiling makes it harder for Samus to kill you but you can kill easily off the sides.

Final Destination is not as bad an option as it sounds. Although you struggle with approaches and can be camped, you won't have to worry about extended up air combos from Samus. Also Samus doesn't have good landing options either, so take advantage of that.

Lylat is generally a good Ganon stage, but it benefits both parties in which both characters can easily get stuck under the lip of the stage, leading to massive salt. Samus can make use of Lylat platforms for up air, and the main ground for camping. However, catching Samus on a platform with an up smash can spell certain death for her.
Battlefield is not your best bet in this scenario. Samus will have the ability to give you a lot of up air trouble, even though Ganon also benefits from BF.

Dream Land 64 plays a lot like the matchup on BF. The wind is also detrimental to you as Ganon, so DL64 should be striked before BF.

Please ban T&C. It does nothing to you other than make the matchup easier for Samus due to the low ceiling.

Short Summary of Matchup:

Playing the MU is basically a watch and bait game. A single Dash Attack or grab can lead to many combos. Samus has the tools to camp you as well as juggle, but Ganon has the destructive power Samus lacks. The best thing to do is to get Samus above you and take advantage of it. Similarly, try to force a roll and punish. Though it has good distance, it is slow.
However, the easiest thing to do when faced with this is to shield (preferably powershield). Overall, you will be approaching as Ganon, and blocking what Samus throws at you. Tilts are great at swatting away Samus and getting good damage, while up smash is a great way to punish Samus' bad landing options. Overall, knocking Samus offstage and taking advantage of her will be crucial to winning the matchup.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55
Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55

Thanks to: A2ZOMG A2ZOMG @Vermanubis @adom4 @Blobface @_Magus_ Z1GMA Z1GMA @Opana I'll tag more people later. I should not be writing this at work.

NEXT WEEK IS ZSS!
 
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Gold_TSG

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You might wanna fix all those instances of mentioning TL in place of Samus
 

Abbey Street

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And now onto Zero Suit Samus!

Gerudo followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all non-DLC characters, click here. Zero Suit Samus gets hit only by D-tilt out of unteched choke, but Choke D-tilt is a kill at 90% without rage, so if she doesn't tech, you can use her weight against her and potentially end a stock impressively early. Reading a buffered roll away will score you a sourspotted DA which can potentially lead to an even earlier kill off of a F-Air (remember sourspot DA to F-Air is a thing now this patch!). Beware her good tech rolls, however, which will get her out of harm's way should she be able to tech a choke.

Some tips for the MU:
  • When caught in a Boost Kick, try to DI and/or SDI down and away from ZSS. Be careful if you are afraid your DI will not be enough, however; you don't want to be DI'ing the last hit away to your death.
  • ZSS gets hit hard by Dash Attack as her unfortunate fall speed makes her an easy target for sourspot DA followups, and her weight makes her fall prey to a sweetspot DA kill earlier than most. If you see an opening to land a DA for a setup or juggle, it's usually a good idea to take it!
  • In this matchup, you might learn to love spotdodge. Since this now avoids ZSS's grab after the nerfs when timed properly, you can read a grab attempt and then promptly punish.
  • Shielding her NAir creates a fairly unfavorable situation where ZSS is positive on block. Avoid this when you can!
  • Her side B, Plasma Whip, kinda sucks in this MU. A trick that works in this matchup is actually throwing a move at Plasma Whip - if you hit the whip with a tilt or smash, it'll clank but ZSS will be left in considerable clank stun - often more than enough time to get a free hit in.
  • While ZSS isn't the most remarkable edgeguarder in the game, she can punish high recoveries very effectively. If you keep it low it's going to make stopping your recovery a fair bit more difficult.
  • ZSS's Flip Jump is invincible on startup. Why is it invincible on startup? I don't know. But really, if you're going to contest it, anticipate where she's headed and punish rather than read.
  • Be mindful of your position when attempting to juggle ZSS. While U-Air does beat a lot of her crap, it is by no means a cover-all juggling move and should be used sparingly. One thing you can do in onstage positive, to continue juggling her, is position yourself behind her and below to remove her annoying N-Air and Z-Air from the equation (easier said than done, but still, it's an option).
  • ZSS's recovery is tricky, but far from impossible to stop (U-Air actually answers to a lot of things for her). A Zero Suit that panics when you head out to edgeguard may immediately ZAir themselves to the ledge and pull up. You can try to catch them on the pull-up with a run-off BAir for a stage spike, or a UAir Tipman if you think they will delay the pull-up. If you read a Flip Kick with U-Air instead, that's pretty much death.
Custom moves:
The matchup changes a little bit in customs, albeit not by much. The main weapon she gains from them is the Blast Shot, which acts like a weaker yet much faster version of Falco's lasers; while their potential as zoning tools is admirable, they are easily plowed through by fresh Wizkicks, which will encourage her to stick with the main Paralyzers. Her choice of side B will probably be Whip Lash, a move that only connects at the sweetspot but pulls us in; given the move's setup potential and ease of hitting us with it in comparison to the remainder of the cast, don't be surprised to see her running it.
In addition, after the nerfs, ZSS might be more inclined to use the Lateral Kick custom for her Up B. While this makes her a little easier to edgeguard as it hurts her vertical recovery, it does slightly more damage but overall, she will most likely keep her normal Boost Kick to keep the flexibility on recovery and kill moves.
In Ganondorf's case, Dark Fists is of course a big help; while you'll seldom be using it as an OoS option, you can punish NAir landings (which would otherwise be safe); it also takes away the BAir to Flip Jump 50/50 that some will attempt. Being that ZSS is a lightweight, she will die rather easily to it as well.
Wizard's Dropkick is a good option, given that it is an option to avoid and punish Paralyzer, Whip and/or grab. However, Wizard's Foot has its uses, such as punishment out of spot dodge for a missed grab, or a potential kill off the top should ZSS whiff a UAir in her string. Wizkick cancels are awesome as well and can psyche out ZSS into using the wrong approach to recovery. Seeing as you will likely not be needing the horizontal recovery distance of Wizard's Dropkick a whole lot against ZSS, I recommend keeping Wizard's Foot for the default, especially if she uses Blast Shot for her neutral custom.
Z.S. Samus's Projected Custom Moveset vs Ganondorf: 1-3-1-1

Sugg. CM ratio for the matchup: 45-55 Small Disadvantage (Recommended Moveset: 2-1-2-1)

Sugg. ratio for the matchup: 40-60 Disadvantage

Recommended watch: Dealing with Boost Kick - Not every boost kick conversion ends a stock. Check out this video on how to DI the Boost Kick and avoid otherwise certain death!
 
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Xinc

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@Vermanubis Requesting the second post for room, created by Ray_Kalm Ray_Kalm

I'll be turning the OP into [/spoiler/] tags so they're easier to see.

edit: it's done, but formatting cut off some stuff here and there for some stupid reason. I'll see what I can do to fix it.
 
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Theosmeo

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AHHHH ZSS, she's awful to fight.

She can really efficiently presure us with paralizer, so watch out. A less resourceful might forget about it because it's usually not a great move, but if she figures out how useful it is against us we're done. Jump out of shield and land with a fastfall only because the only effective punish for that is DA, not great. If she's in the air watch for Bair. Perfect shield Nair or spotdodge. Don't go off to edgeguard her and DI her combos perfectly.
 

Xinc

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OK, due to the low amount of responses, I can still write the writeup but I'll need a little bit of time after pestering a crewmate to play ZSS against me.

Thanks a lot for the responses so far though! They're very insightful.
 
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Xinc

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Any developments Xinc Xinc
I have it 95% done but it's at work computer (I really have to stop writing smash writeups at work), so you can expect it out on Tuesday or Wednesday when I get to work.
 

Xinc

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Hi.

Character Description: Samus Aran is an ex-soldier of the Galactic Federation who turned into a Galactic bounty hunter, usually fitted with a powered exoskeleton with weapons that include directed-energy weapons and missiles. Throughout the series, she executes missions given to her by the Galactic Federation while hunting the antagonistic Space Pirates and their leader Ridley along with the parasitic energy-draining organisms called Metroids. Appearances of Samus outside the Power Suit occur mostly in cutscenes, such as ending screens showing Samus in more revealing clothing. Metroid: Zero Mission also introduced the Zero Suit, a form-fitting jumpsuit that she dons below the Power Suit.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Ganondorf gets down tilt out of choke. If you manage to get it on ZSS around 90, it can kill with or without a decent amount of rage.

How to Deal with Projectiles: ZSS is a versatile character, but her paralyzer only has limited distance, and can be powershielded. Also be mindful of her side B, which sends you away, as well as her down smash, which will stun you at a close distance.

Understanding the Matchup:

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. This makes things easy for ZSS since she can weave in and out with her paralyzer, better speed, and good aerial moves. Ganon needs to be careful to space properly or will die to her Boost Kick (Up B), which can lead to a death.

On the other hand, ZSS falls at a fairly fast speed but is light, which means she needs to be very careful when approaching since Ganon’s attacks can spell death to her, should he land it. Her fast fall speed makes it so she is weak to sour spot dash attack followups, even at higher percents. That means she can be juggled, AND can get sent to death by a sour spot DA setup.

This match is very reliant on your mixups and DI, since a missed DI can lead to a loss of stock.


Snuffing ZSS’s approach: Projectiles and tethers will be smacked at you, occasionally followed by a grab as bait. Mix up your defensive options by rolling, jumping, and power shielding. Spot dodging is also a very useful move, since thanks to the nerf on her grab, Ganon won’t get grabbed if he dodges ZSS’s tether grab.

ZSS is especially great with pressuring Ganon due to her ability to confirm out of paralyzer. This means that you have to definitely play around ZSS’s projectile and mobility. If caught by a grab, a down throw to up air is sure to come, so be sure to mash.


IF CAUGHT ABOVE:

You really don’t want to get above ZSS since up airs rack up damage super easily, and can rack up to a Boost kick, which can kill at low percents. If you do get caught, check out this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQD6fPQXYwE

As you can see, DI’ing can save your life against Boost Kick.

At the same time, don’t be predictable with air dodges or waste your second jump. A ZSS could easily read the air dodge and wait for it to end and still Up-B you anyway. So air dodge with caution.

Your second jump is your lifeline to get back on the stage. You can use it to gain a little vertical momentum and slide away from ZSS.

Punishing a Whiff Hit: It happens that ZSS can mistakenly throw out an unsafe aerial or dash attack. When doing so, punish accordingly. Your fastest (but least damaging move) is your jab. It goes far and deals up to 10. A little bit slower, but Dash Attack, wizkick, grab, and choke are also viable options to punish on reaction.

Recovering: You generally want to recover low since ZSS’s flip kick can spike. Recovering low means that ZSS does not get that opportunity. So try to use the Up-B below the stage to recover, and choke only when you’re sure ZSS isn’t in a position to spike.

Against a ZSS trying to land: ZSS has an escape option in her Flip Kick. The Flip Kick allows her to safely move away from any situation. To boot, the first few frames provide invincibility, so punishing her from flip kick is hard. Try not to commit, but forcing her flip kick out can help.

Grabs: Down Throw can lead to Nair, up air, and Dash attack at lower percents. Dash Attack, as said previously, provides a lot of utility in that it can set up for juggles and a lot of damage. Forward throw is a great way to rack up damage, while back throw to knock someone off stage. Up air is a weaker move with less usability, but it can be just to send ZSS above you and play mindgames.

On the other hand, be careful of ZSS’s grabs. Down throw leads to up airs, while back throw near the ledge, if DI’ed incorrectly, can lead to flip kick to spike you downwards. (Hi Nairo). These are her more common throws.

Edgeguarding: ZSS has several options of recovery, which does help her regular lackluster boost kick recovery. The tether side B helps her a lot in terms of recovery, even though it’s reckless to use it against Ganondorf. (Ganon has a quick punish on block). Down B (Flip Kick) also helps in that it’s invincible at the beginning and can spike any ambitious edgeguarders. The key to edge guard that move is to wait and beat it with up air. The regular boost kick can be clashed with tipman/up air from under, as well as back air.



Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup. But it does beat out her Side B.


Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO. It can also hit a projectile ZSS throws to extend its duration and catch ZSS in it, before hitting him for massive damage and knockback, potentially killing him insanely early.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. It can bypass ZSS’s laser stun, so you will be able to hit her out of it without having to jump.

Stages to consider:

Battlefield is your best bet in this scenario. ZSS can give you some trouble with up air strings by trapping you on a platform, but you can do the same, if not more from a DA and just up airs.

Lylat is generally a good Ganon stage, but it benefits both parties in which both characters can easily get stuck under the lip of the stage, leading to massive salt. ZSS projectile camp on the main platform, while Ganon can make use of the three higher platforms for insanely early Kos and platform trapping, resulting in numerous juggles. One should be predicting a Flip Kick to save ZSS though, and can try to punish if she does land on another platform with up air or Aerudo (air side B).

Smashville is another good option as the smaller base platform allows you to approach with less distance, and the moving platforms. Overall, the stage is fair for both parties. ZSS can shark under the stage, pro tip.

Dream Land 64 plays a lot like the matchup on BF. Unlike Battlefield, it has a lower ceiling and it’s harder to land an up smash on the platform. The stage itself is larger, making approaching more difficult. It's a pretty decent stage if you have rage and need to land one solid kill. Hence, pick this stage if you feel comfortable with the three platforms and BF is banned, but there are better options.

Final Destination is not as bad an option as it sounds, but ZSS can camp well without platforms, since Ganon’s slow and can find it difficult to punish Flip Kick. Don’t get discouraged by the projectiles and plow on ahead.

Duck Hunt is a wide stage, but the ducks help with stale moves and the high blast zones make it difficult for ZSS to land a Boost Kick kill against you. ZSS benefits more than you, since she has more leg room, and can just make life difficult by weaving in and out. Maybe the dog and ducks can help you?

BAN: Town and City. Ganon normally can live a little longer than most from Boost Kick, but Town and City’s low ceiling just means he’ll die earlier. ZSS will also live longer thanks to the longer side boundaries.

Short Summary of Matchup:

ZSS is a fast faller, but is a light character. Ganondorf benefits from this by being able to land several strong hits and potentially juggle ZSS. However, she’s more mobile, which makes it difficult to hit her. In addition, the paralyzer does nothing but really give Ganon something to worry about since she can confirm things on hit.

However, there isn’t a one size fit all answer to this. ZSS has many options that can give Ganon problems. ZSS does have enough lag on her missed tether grab for a quick punish which Ganon should always take advantage of. Powershield, spot dodge, and jump over projectiles, and do whatever you can to rack up damage, and net a quick kill. Overall, killing ZSS vertically is easier to confirm, since she has many options to return back on the stage, but be sure to not make your up smash too predictable. On the plus side, you can trade with her aerials since you outrange her and deal more damage. Overall, you’ll want to play very passive aggressive and punish her for unsafe moves.


CM Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55

Ratio of the Matchup: 40-60

Thanks to: Theosmeo Theosmeo Abbey Street Abbey Street


FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING PIT.
 
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MezzoMe

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Hi.

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. This makes things easy for ZSS since she can weave in and out with her paralyzer, better speed, and good aerial moves. Ganon needs to be careful not to space properly or will die to her Boost Kick (Up B), which can lead to a death.





On the other hand, be careful of ZSS’s grabs. Down throw leads to up airs, while back air near the ledge, if DI’ed incorrectly, can lead to flip kick to spike you downwards. (Hi Nairo). These are her more common throws.

You mistyped in those two places
 

Abbey Street

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Gerudo followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all non-DLC characters, click here. The only guaranteed followup that we get on Pit is Jab, and that comes as a buff from patch 1.1.5. While he does have a subpar techroll, it's also pretty fast, invalidating some tech chase options such as a follow-up choke on roll away. His getup attack is kinda meh, however, so just lay into him if he tries to getup attack. I'm not personally sure if F-smash covers roll in, I haven't tested that yet. Someone may wanna confirm.

Some tips for the MU:
  • Pit's most potent weapon against Ganondorf is his grab, out of which he has some pretty-impressive combos and followups, particularly out of D-throw. Because of this, you will want to stress spacing and footsies rather than a gatecrashing kind of playstyle.
  • Pit can juggle Ganon pretty well at mid percents, so be careful not to find yourself above Pit! Keep the fight on the ground when possible to avert the risk.
  • If Pit fires arrows at you while you're offstage in an attempt to gimp you, you can stop the arrows with an aerial. Thus it's important to preserve your double jump, or maybe recover high.
  • A recovery with no hitbox means you can contest Pit offstage with little fear, either with N-air, D-air or a 2-frame. The thing you may want to watch out for is B-air, which kills Ganon pretty easily, and Upperdash/Electroshock Arm, which provides Super Armor to help Pit return to the stage.
  • Whatever you do, don't get footstooled! Check out the Recommended Watch below to see why.
  • Beware of the step back that Pit and Dark Pit take when using their Arms. They may try this to punish your spacing on the ground, so beware! This is also why Jab is great; it outspaces many of Pit's options, anyhow.
  • Dark Pit may go for Electroshock Arm more than Pit may go for his own since there is more reward to hitting Ganon with Electroshock. If you see a temptation to side B Ganon offstage, abuse its endlag and punish hard!
  • Since all of Pit's aerials SHAC, punishing them will be tough in neutral. Try to N-air him and go for the trade (many of Pit's aerials are multihits)!
Recommended stage:
Final Destination is likely your best bet vs Pit. There's not as much breathing room for Pit, no platforms to help him juggle you, or no moving platform to arrow camp you from. I would actually go this stage on 3DS as well in order to circumvent the extra stuff he gets on Yoshi's Island.

Town and City and Duck Hunt should be priority bans, as they give both Pits early as hell kills or perfect camping opportunities. If you're on 3DS, you should instead ban Battlefield or Dream Land instead of T&C, as you ideally don't want to give Pit platforms if you can help it.

Custom moves:
This matchup, especially in customs, is super rare, and thus I've never played it. However, beware Guiding Bow and Breezy Flight, as these moves make Pit's edgeguarding more dangerous.
Pit/Dark Pit's projected custom moveset vs. Ganondorf: 3-1-3-1

Sugg. CM Ratio for the matchup: 45-55 Small Disadvantage (Pit); 40-60 Disadvantage (Dark Pit) (Ganon's suggested moveset: 2-1-2-2)

Sugg. Ratio for the matchup: 45-55 Small Disadvantage (Both Pits)

Recommended Watch: Pit Footstool Jablock Setups - Being footstooled by Pit puts Ganon in a really bad situation. Here you can learn how Pit's Footstool setups work so you know what you're up against and what you have to avoid.
 
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super fan bros

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We're currently doing Pit. Dark Pit is pretty similar but we'll revisit Dark Pit later.
Ok thanks you very much :)

Against Pit, I don'k know a lot the MU. All I can say it's than this MU is not in our favor seen the aerial game of Pit and the terrible recovery of Ganondorf. Not to mention the speed and of projectile of Pit.
 

Z1GMA

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I missed the Samus Discussion;
Samus has a good advantage in this MU, but it's not horrible.
She's one of the harder characters to edgeguard, which greatly impacts the MU as a whole.
A patient, campy (although not too patient) Samus, is the most dangerous kind Vs Ganon.

:ganondorf: 38 / 62 :samus:
 

Xinc

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I missed the Samus Discussion;
Samus has a good advantage in this MU, but it's not horrible.
She's one of the harder characters to edgeguard, which greatly impacts the MU as a whole.
A patient, campy (although not too patient) Samus, is the most dangerous kind Vs Ganon.

:ganondorf: 38 / 62 :samus:
So basically somewhere between 35:65 and 40-60. I'd say 40-60 is more akin to Clouds :o
 

Ray_Kalm

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I missed the Samus Discussion;
Samus has a good advantage in this MU, but it's not horrible.
She's one of the harder characters to edgeguard, which greatly impacts the MU as a whole.
A patient, campy (although not too patient) Samus, is the most dangerous kind Vs Ganon.

:ganondorf: 38 / 62 :samus:
It's no way that bad. I always sum the matchup to closely even.
 
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Z1GMA

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:4samus: I can stretch to 40:60, but not more.
40:60 is not that far from even.

************************


:4zss: I haven't faced any good ZSSes after the patch,
but before the patch it was like 25:75
 
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Abbey Street

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Not quite...

Although spotdodge being useless was pretty bad

Was still somewhere between 40:60 and 35:65. Now with that spotdodge gone it's somewhere between 45:55 and 40:60
 
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Abbey Street

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What is the deal with his spotdodge?
ZSS's grab used to have so many active frames that it was impossible to spotdodge almost regardless of who you were. That was nerfed in 1.1.5, which also brought down the grab's total frames on whiff. So we can spotdodge it now.
 

free33

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ZSS's grab used to have so many active frames that it was impossible to spotdodge almost regardless of who you were. That was nerfed in 1.1.5, which also brought down the grab's total frames on whiff. So we can spotdodge it now.
That's innacurate. As an old zss main, the patch replaced the last 4 active frames with empty lag frames, decreasing the activity of the move by 4 while keeping the duration of the animation the same. They changed the active frames to lag frames, essentially.
 

Litany

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Now that I've actually learned this MU a bit, I can contribute.

Abbey's already mentioned most of the important stuff. Your best stage choice would be Final Destination, followed by Lylat. The ledge is a very safe place for Ganondorf to be, as none of Pit's grounded moves or aerials from the stage hit our ledgehang, with the exception of Neutral-B, which is very telegraphed and actually alleviates pressure from us on the ledge (Dark Pit can't hit us with Neutral-B). Aerial Flame Choke is interesting in the MU; you can't OoS F-tilt or D-tilt his getup attack, only OoS Jab or Grab (although you can spotdodge his getup attack to save your shield). On roll away or inwards you can get SH F-air or D-tilt. When above Pit, make sure to use your DJ at the right moment, otherwise he can basically catch your landing for free with Side-B. However, if Pit manages to use up all of his jumps above you, his landing options are easily covered by Down-B.

I'd say this MU is about 60-40 in Pit's favor.
 

Xinc

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Apologies for the delay. Pit thread will be up next week.
 
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Xinc

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Character Description: Pit is a fictional character and the protagonist of the Kid Icarus series, first appearing in Kid Icarus for the Nintendo Entertainment System in 1986 and later appearing in Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters for the Game Boy in 1991.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters sans DLC, click here: http://imgur.com/9LhItgJ . Ganondorf gets jab as a punish off an unteched choke.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Pit’s arrows aren’t too terrifying, but they’re pretty good harassment. He can use them to try to gimp you offstage or just to stifle an approach. If offstage, swat those arrows away with an aerial (up air is safest). Your return won't be hindered any longer!

Understanding the Matchup:

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. This makes things easy for Pit to hit you with those arrows as well as hit your giant hurtbox. Ganon needs to be careful to space properly or will eat up a lot of damage from Pit.

On the other hand, Pit isn't all that heavy, which means he won't be able to take that much of a beating from our beloved Dark Lord. He also can't close out stocks too easily, relying on Dair, his UpperArm Dash (Side B), and Smash attacks. This means you'll be able to survive longer. Pit's attacks also aren't that great range-wise which means you can out-space him. Of course, he can avoid that by using retreating aerials with his multiple jumps.

This match is very reliant on DI, since an incorrect DI will make you eat a lot of percent. Also, keeping your movement options unpredictable is another thing that will be useful in throwing Pit off his game.

You will have a bad time with the neutral since Pit's aerials auto cancel on a short hop. You'll have to play footsies, which isn't all that bad considering your giant hitboxes and the large damage output you provide. You can afford it, but Pit will always have an easier time weaving in and out, as well as just snuffing approaches. If he does get a little too close for comfort, a jab can push him away and you can try again.

Please do try to tech when you're expecting to get footstool'ed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmxZuZlEQ80

Snuffing Pit’s approach: Pit generally doesn't want to approach you. Because he has a projectile, he'll be more likely to keep spamming it to force you to approach. Try not to get baited too hard into overcommitting and power shield arrows. If you manage to get ahead by sealing one of his stocks, bear in mind all of Pit's aerials auto cancel out of a short hop so be wary when throwing out an attack. If you want him away from you, jab. It's a good GTFO move with a good range. Pit is also not so good on block, which means you have the time to hit him if you manage to block a move he hits your shield with.


IF CAUGHT ABOVE:

You really don’t want to get above Pit. Pit has pretty good juggling tools at mid percents. Try to get down on to the floor without being too predictable. Options here include: double jump, getting down to the ledge, air dodging, using an aerial, and Wizkick to speed up your descent.

Punishing a Whiff Hit: When Pit hits you with a hit, you really want to hit him hard and stay near him as long as you possibly can. One way how you can do that by using the choke. It steals all momentum from Pit and puts you in a good position. Being able to jab him out of choke is great too. If you see that Pit’s spacing isn’t the best, you should take into consideration that Dash Attack can collide with Pit, ruining his spacing.

Recovering: You generally want to recover low, but since Pit has many jumps, it’s crucial for you not to expend your second jump. But at the same time, you want to keep your recovery unpredictable. So it’s not strange to recover high. Mix it up. If you’re up high, you can even Wizkick so you can grab the ledge or hit Pit. The move has tremendous knockback, so it’s a threat.

Against a Pit trying to land: Pit has multiple jumps, remember, so don't try doing anything too committal. Jump to force a midair jump, throw out an up air. These moves don't have a lot of end lag so you can afford to throw them out without discarding the advantage you are in. Up air is especially good since Pit's down air is severely outranged by up air.

Grabs: Down Throw can lead to Nair, up air, and Dash attack at lower percents. Dash Attack, as said previously, provides a lot of utility in that it can set up for juggles and a lot of damage. Forward throw is a great way to rack up damage, while back throw to knock someone off stage.

It is possible to land a lot of devastating damage from just a single grab. If you're skilled at Footstools, landing a weak dash attack can follow up into a footstool>down air.

Edgeguarding: Pit does NOT have any hitbox on his Up-B, which means it’s easy to gimp him with a rogue up air. Of course, you need to watch out how many jumps Pit has, since he can throw off your timing but opting to stall his recovery back to the ledge.

All Ganon's aerials can snuff his recovery pretty well. However, bear in mind that Pit doesn't go into helpless after his side B, which is also another recovery option. If you manage to pressure Pit to the point where he will recover high, use Up air or predict his landing in order to punish.



Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup. But it does beat out her Side B.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. It can throw off arrows, so you will be able to hit him out of it without having to jump.

Stages to consider:

Final Destination: There are no platforms for Pit to trap you on, which means he has less ability to juggle you. FD does give Pit a bit of breathing room, but the stage isn't big to the point where Pit can just recklessly camp. Manage space carefully. Pit's punish game on this stage is more limited.

Battlefield: If you're on this stage, you want to be careful of Pit's juggling moves as well as being able to trap you on platforms. Luckily, you can do the same. Use your Dash Attack to pop Pit up and trap him with up airs, aerials, and kill him with a sweetspotted up smash.

Lylat Cruise: This is a mix between FD and BF. It's a good stage if FD is banned. There is less room for Pit to run around it. Sure, you can get trapped on the platforms, but you can also trap Pit on the platforms. And all three platforms are in the perfect position for your Up smash.

Smashville: Be very careful and mindful of where that moving platform is. Pit can use it to camp as well as extend combos, while you are a bit too slow to take advantage of that platform to its fullest extent.

Fountain of Dreams: Like Battlefield, but worse. Whispy's gusts of wind worsen your approach and the ceiling is lower, which means you'll have a harder time living at higher percents. Still, on this stage, it's doable.

BAN: Town and City. Ganon normally can live a little longer than most, but Town and City’s low ceiling just means he’ll die earlier especially thanks to Pit's juggling moves and his side b, which hits straight up and is a potent killing move with super armor.

Duck Hunt: Pit will be able to camp you silly with arrows and swat you away in this stage. If you're fighting Pit here, you're going to have to really fight to get even close to him.

Short Summary of Matchup:

Pit has a better neutral than you, with moves that have far less end lag. Play the footsie game and look for any weaknesses. Capitalize off of it, be it a grab, a tilt, or an aerial. Grabs are devastating to Pit thanks to the numerous followups you can give to him.



CM Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55

Ratio of the Matchup: 40-60

Thanks to: Theosmeo Theosmeo Abbey Street Abbey Street



FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING PALUTENA.
 
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KenMeister

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Pit's a ***** to chase down, and can often get away with abusing retreating options like retreating bair and pivot grab which makes him annoying to pressure as Ganon, unless he's at the ledge.
 

Xinc

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We're going to be going by JMUs at this point, since no one's contributing. (I don't have too much Palutena experience other than matches in Anthers) - So here's Ryu:

Character Description: Ryu, the wandering warrior, is a video game character and protagonist of the Street Fighter series, first appearing in the original Street Fighter. He is an experienced martial artist, highly focused on his training, aiming to become the strongest he can.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): Ganondorf does not get any followups off an unteched choke on Ryu. You’re going to have to rely on reads if you want to get a punish.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Ryu’s only projectile is Hadoken and the Shakunetsu Hadoken. The regular Hadoken variant clashes with jab, dash attack, but stops Wizard’s kick.

The Shakunetsu Hadoken is a multihit projectile with low priority. This means Wizard’s kick goes right through it without clashing, so you can use it to punish Ryu. Dash attack works similarly.

Understanding the Matchup:

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. Lacking a projectile, Ganondorf needs to get in a range where Ryu can’t exactly hit him, but where Ryu throwing out Hadokens can be punished.

Because Ryu’s aerials are fairly low lag, and his attacks just simply string together, it’s hazardous to approach Ryu recklessly. Ryu’s not that good at approaching either, so you don’t have to feel pressured into approaching. Hence, the name of the game is to play more towards the mid-range. Play passive aggressively, looking for openings at a distance where Ryu will have trouble hitting you.

You don’t want to get too close to Ryu. Ryu’s kit revolves mainly on his true Shoryuken (TSRK for short). This move can kill as early as under 100% with rage, which is almost as strong as Ganondorf’s attacks. Approaching Ryu in the air would also be a problem since his strong Up tilt is a disjointed anti-air move that’ll knock Ganon upwards, and at low percents, can combo into weak Shoryuken.

On the plus side, the majority of Ganon’s kit can outrange Ryu while staying at a safer range. This includes his jab, tilts, forward smash, and aerials. It’s possible to play patiently and beat Ryu despite Ryu being able to seal a stock as early as Ganon with TSRK.

This match is very reliant on your mixups and DI once you do get hit, since a missed DI can lead to a loss of stock. This also goes for his up tilt strings. Ganon is at the weight where light up tilt strings can rack up percent very easily. This means you need to pay very close attention to Ryu and not rush in. Ganondorf does have options to beat Ryu but it requires patience and analyzing habits, as well as managing space.

During this MU, you’ll find Ryu relying a little more on his Focus Attack and Hadoken since we have few moves that are multi-hit, and that we don’t have a projectile. To beat Focus Attack, you have three options: Nair, Flame Choke (aerial flame choke is a little better due to better range), and Dark Dive. Nair is a move that hits twice, so it’ll break Ryu’s FA. However, Flame Choke and Dark Dive are grab moves, which bypass the FA. Flame Choke is great at resetting the neutral, sending Ryu into a disadvantageous state where you can punish his get up option. Dark Dive is not a great punish move but it can be used if Ryu lands on your shield. Lastly, aerial Wizard’s Foot is an option since the shockwave does count as a second hitbox.

Against his Hadoken, you must understand there is some endlag. If Ganondorf is positioned in a way he can perfect shield and Wizkick or Dash attack Ryu, that’s the ideal punish. It’s possible to jump in order to read Ryu’s Hadoken, and then throw out an aerial to hit Ryu.




Snuffing approach: When approaching, Ryu tends to leave out several gaps. Ryu has a low air acceleration and low mobility. This means if Ryu decides to approach, he’ll also be likely to throw out a Hadoken or Shakenetsu Hadoken for Ganon to have to avoid. This way Ryu can close distance. If a Hadoken is thrown, then all Ganon has to do is perfect shield and then punish Ryu’s approach with an aerial or tilt that outranges Ryu. If it’s the red fireball, a perfectly timed Wizkick can punish Ryu also. It’s possible to, however, roll back or jump away from the fireball, but that’s playing Ryu’s game.


IF CAUGHT ABOVE:

Ryu has a lot of good anti-air moves so it’s best to recover away from Ryu. If caught above, try to mix up your descent to the stage with an air dodge, Wizkick, double jump, or no reaction. Be warned though. Up air and strong up tilt are Ryu’s two best options for anti-airing. They’re both disjointed so wizkick as an option will fail since the hitbox of wizkick is on Ganon’s foot, which is also his hurtbox.

Punishing a Whiff Hit: Generally, Ryu’s commonly used moves are rather low-committal, barring Shoryuken. To punish TSRK, punish Ryu before he hits the ground. That could be done by a tilt or Smash if you have the time. However, Ryu does have endlag on his Smash attacks, Hadoken, and Tatsumaki (if shielded). Dash attack and Wizkick can punish those moves well.

Recovering: Ryu isn’t that great off-stage, so recovering low is your best bet. Be careful and mix up your timing though, because Ryu can attempt a Tatsumaki edgeguard to 2-Frame Ganon’s recovery.

Against a Ryu trying to land: If Ryu’s going to get back on stage, he will be recovering away from you, air dodging, or Focus Attacking to sponge up an attack. Nair beats the latter of these two and is the most optimal of these punishes. However, if Ryu is trying to just get back on stage far away from you, you can opt to wizkick if you don’t think he will FA. Otherwise, letting him recover and punishing him with another move is OK.

Grabs: Down Throw can lead to Nair, up air, and Dash attack at lower percents. Dash Attack, as said previously, provides a lot of utility in that it can set up for juggles and a lot of damage. However, it can be sponged with FA. Forward throw is a great way to rack up damage, while back throw to knock someone off stage to force a recovery. Up air is a move that’ll usually work, but it can also be absorbed by FA. Nair is your best punish if you anticipate Ryu going for a FA, since both hits will break it.

On the other hand, Ryu’s main grabs aren’t that great. Down throw can lead to several combos or juggle opportunity for Ryu, while Back air can send you off the stage or a tech chase, but it’s not too bad.

Edgeguarding: Ryu has several options for recovery but only Shoryuken is really hard to block. If he expects an attack, he’ll use the Focus Attack and Dash Cancel to get some space. This is remedied by multi-hit moves or grab hitboxes. Namely, your nair will break his FA.

Tatsumaki (side B) is the next option. Ryu can opt to use the descending tornado kick, or expend his jump for additional height. The best way to intercept Tatsumaki is up air from below or dair/Wizkick from above. The hitbox of Ryu’s side B reaches horizontally so it’s best to attack from above or below. However, with strict timing, fair and nair can also connect.

Hitting the Shoryuken is a little bit more difficult, but can be done by facing the stage while being offstage and using Nair to intercept Ryu’s Shoryuken recovery.

However, it’s also possible to 2-frame Ryu’s ledge snap with aerial Flame Choke. It’s advantageous to do this if you’re ahead in stocks, or if you have the same number. Hold down when using side B and Ganon’s choke duration will extend instead of Ganon ledge-snapping. He’ll then Ganoncide Ryu.


Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup. But it does beat out her Side B.


Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO. It also breaks through Hadoken, but fails to beat Focus Attack.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. It can bypass Hadoken, so you will be able to hit him out of it without having to jump.

Stages to consider:

You are a lot of good stages with Ryu, so bear in mind that Ganon won’t benefit too much in his stage picks. For stage picking, it’s picking from personal preference, playstyle, or just simply not letting your opponent get a big advantage.

Battlefield is your best bet in this scenario. Although Ryu also is great at this, his aerial mobility isn’t the best and can be telegraphed. If you get him above the main platform, you can have an easier time racking up damage and trapping him up there. It’s also crucial to keep him up trapped so he lands right on your sweet-spotted up smash. Be careful though – you can get juggled too, so don’t overextend or fight too close range to Ryu. The ceiling is a bit high so you won’t die early from TSRK.

Lylat is generally a good Ganon stage, but it benefits both parties in which both characters can easily get stuck under the lip of the stage, leading to massive salt. Pay attention to when the ship tilts because that’s when you know where you’ll die to a TSRK at a lower percent. Like Battlefield, you want to pop Ryu up onto the platforms without having the same happen to you.

Smashville is another good option as the smaller base platform allows you to approach with less distance, and the moving platforms. Overall, the stage is fair for both parties. Pay attention to the moving platform because that’s where Ryu wants you to be. The platform means he’ll kill you at an earlier percent.

Final Destination is not as bad an option as it sounds, but space control will be very vital. Try to play at a distance where Ryu can get punished by throwing out Hadoken. Don’t get discouraged by the projectiles and plow on ahead. You won’t die too early here since the lack of platforms means Ryu will have to actually get you above 100% to kill you without rage.

Dream Land 64 plays a lot like the matchup on BF. Unlike Battlefield, it has a lower ceiling and it’s harder to land an up smash on the platform. The stage itself is larger, making approaching more difficult. It's a pretty decent stage if you have rage and need to land one solid kill. Hence, pick this stage if you feel comfortable with the three platforms and BF is banned, but there are better options.

Duck Hunt is a wide stage, but that’s both a good thing and a bad thing. Ryu has an easier time managing space, but you also have more space to run around away from Ryu. (Ledge cancelled Wizkicks are a thing) Bear in mind that a whole ledgejump on the left side of the stage can land you right on the platform, if you want to run away. Be careful of the dog though. Landing a smash while you’re both on top of the dog is great, but you really don’t want to eat a TSRK on the dog. This stage requires more patience than the others.

BAN: Town and City. Ryu thrives off the low ceiling as well as the additional room to run around. Ganon’s slow so this is a really bad idea since Ryu can afford to throw Hadokens to control space.

Short Summary of Matchup:

Play at a mid-range, at a distance where your down tilt can outrange Ryu's light/strong down tilt, and punish Ryu's moves with pivot F-tilt, down tilt, Wizkick, Dash Attack, or grab. Be sure to punish Hadoken since there is enough endlag for that to happen. Ryu's approach is lackluster, so be wary for what Ryu may be up to. Overall, you can kill either horizontally or vertically, depending on the stage.

If you do get caught by Ryu's up tilt strings, be aware that you can recover with your up b until 55% if he has low rage. If you're above that percent, try to DI towards the platforms, or just away from the edge of the stage. Mix it up a little. Since Ganon's fall speed isn't exactly terrible, it can be easy to confuse the Ryu player. But if you're above the stage, a direct descent is sure to get punished since Ryu has good disjointed anti-air moves. Try to recover on the ledge, on a platform, or at a safe distance from Ryu.

Overall, you want to play in a scenario where Ganon can pressure Ryu without having to throw out too many unsafe moves. Space is crucial to this matchup, while throwing out moves won't work here. DI well and make sure you do not eat a Focus Attack, since Ryu combos off those well.


CM Ratio of the Matchup: 40-60

Ratio of the Matchup: 40-60

Thanks to: the Ryu and Ganon JMU contributors


FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING ???

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