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Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

A2ZOMG

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I managed to elicit Das's opinion of the matchup yesterday, and while he beat me in tournament, he thinks the matchup is fairly even as well. It definitely can come down a lot to playstyle and who makes better calls on habits, as generally speaking, both characters can get fairly high momentum off a mistake, but someone has to make a fairly big guess to actually make anything happen.
 

Scarlet Jile

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I would have never respected this MU before seeing Hyuga just mulching through Genesis like a demon.

Now I really don't know what to think.
 

Moobussir

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Is anyone willing to play some VS matches to gain some experience on both ends? I've only fought one Ganon I considered someone I can lose against, the rest were FG Ganon's. If someone's willing to play (Wii U only, my 3DS broke), PM me please!
 

Ray_Kalm

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Donkey Kong, with the addition of his ding dong now, is roughly as hard for Ganon as Ice Climbers were in brawl.

Roughly 75:35

Don't get grabbed after 80%.
 

Xinc

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Alright folks, we're done with TL. Since I'm still abroad, I need to update the tags of everyone who participated in the TL discussion here and in Discord

Character Description: Toon Link first appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass, with big eyes and an expressive face. He lived peacefully on Outset Island until a bird captured his little sister, and he came to her rescue. In The Wind Waker, he had to crawl, press up to walls, and the like. His green clothes were worn on his 12th birthday and are the lucky outfit of the hero of legend.


Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Toon Link is vulnerable to jab, down tilt, and forward tilt followups off a missed tech. Given Tink’s light weight, landing a FTilt or DTilt at a higher percent can seal a stock.

How to Deal with Projectiles: TL, like Link, has access to bombs, arrows, and boomerangs, as well as his hookshot. Tink is very good at spacing and keeping Ganon at bay. The trick is to shield away or catch the bombs, and shield the arrows, boomerangs, and hookshot. All of these three are slower than Link’s, and TL’s floatiness makes it easy to figure out what action he will do. Perfect shielding is even better since you don’t get any pushback and can immediately retaliate. In addition, catching TL’s bomb allows you to control spacing as well and discourage TL’s followups, such as boomerang to fair combo.

Understanding the Matchup:

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. TL is far more agile and able to maintain stage control due to his smaller height, despite his large head. TL will most likely play defensively and only come in when a projectile hit will confirm in order to follow up on that hit. The issue is that TL can afford to projectile camp Ganon, as Ganon struggles with approaching.

This doesn’t mean Ganon will suffer immensely. Ganon can powershield the projectiles away. His goal is to break TL’s zoning by approaching, and hitting him hard. TL does not have many good throw options, other than back throwing Ganon near the ledge when he’s at high percent, so you’re usually safer in your shield. Walking may also be another option better than running, since you can swat extra damage on TL if he wanders too close with a tilt or jab.

Ganon himself does really well when he lands a dash attack (weak hit) for a castle flip. The sheer power and knockback will put TL in an awkward position. In addition, a grab is a great way to land around 30 damage on TL, as down throw to nair nets around that damage and also send TL in a strange position. Down throw to up air will work at medium percent.

If you overextend, it’s best for you to regain some ground before resetting situation. That way you won’t eat up too much extra damage.


Snuffing TL's approach: Projectiles will usually be thrown at you, and a hit confirm will let TL come in to swat you with a fair. In addition, try not to let yourself get above of him, especially at low percents, since up air strings will rack up damage fairly quickly. Catching bombs and throwing them back at TL is a great way to halt his momentum. It can also lead to a followup depending on his DI, such as another choke, or neutral or up air depending on position.


IF CAUGHT ABOVE: TL will most likely be trying to string up airs for when you get back down, or hit you with an up air if you’re at higher percent to get a kill. Be careful about up air since the hitbox lasts a long period of time. In other words, using your double jump to escape may be a great idea. Air dodge with caution, since although the weak hit of Up air won’t kill, it’ll position TL for another up air, since it will still push you up.

Remember that you don’t need to land many hits to take care of TL, thanks to his light weight. A good choke can lead to a chain of chokes, thanks to his slower get up roll. Feel free to utilize the aerial variant (Aerudo) as well. Also, be aware that the Aerudo deals more damage than regular flame choke and has a slightly faster startup, and can lead to another grounded choke.

Gaining center stage control matters in this matchup, since you’re trying to limit TL’s running space. It also helps mitigates any risks you may take from getting knocked offstage. In addition, getting center stage lessens Sheik's movement options and can prompt her to approach you, which can be advantageous to us. BUT if you see a Sheik dashing forward, she is most likely going for a dash grab, which Sheiks use to employ for her various throw combos. Be wary.

Punishing a Whiff Hit: Grab if TL gets too close. Forward Tilt, Down Tilt, and Up Smash are relatively fast moves as well, in addition to dealing massive damage and knockback.

Recovering: Recovering low is not a bad idea since TL wants to refrain from going low, save for a down air suicidal spike. Fair has a bit too much cooldown for TL, as does bair, to intercept your recovery. Saving your second jump will also go a long way, as it will prevent you from getting baited as well as allow you to return onstage safely, as well as safely intercept TL’s edgeguard. Ganondorf's recovery gives a lot of vertical distance, so recovering from below is not a bad idea at all. Also feel free to hold back when recovering to give that uppercut to TL, as it'll push him away and give you time to get back on stage safely. But be careful, since TL can just opt to down air near the ledge and it’ll hit you if your opponent expects it.

Of course, mixing up your recovery is extremely vital. TL does have several options to hit you recovering low, such as pelting you with bombs or boomerangs, if you at a horizontally low angle.


Against a TL trying to land: Wizard's Foot (Wizkick) is great at covering his landings. It's a fast and relatively powerful move that can cancel at the ledge. TL usually plays keepaway, and is floaty, which means it’s easier to anticipate where TL will be landing. Up air clashes with down air, but can kill at higher percent, or just simply send TL in an awkward upwards angle. A dash attack is also another viable option, sending TL back into the air and killing at higher percents, or the weak hit setting up for a castle flip.

Grabs: Ganondorf's main grab in this matchup are the down throw and the forward throw to rack damage. Down throw racks up damage, especially with the new neutral air or up air followup. Up air and Nair send TL in awkward positions where they have to get back on the ground. BUT… Up throw sends your opponent at an awkward upwards trajectory where you can reset the situation with TL on top, and wanting to come back down. You can punish attempts to come back down, which prevents TL from going back to playing keepaway against you.

Edgeguarding: TL’s recovery goes farther than Link’s, but has less protective space. This means most aerials will be able to clash with TL’s up-B, and swat him away. Down air is considerably the most useful if TL isn’t hugging the stage. Forward air, neutral air, and back air are also good moves to keep TL away from the ledge.

TL’s primary method of recovering from the ledge against you is to either throw a projectile at you to swat you away, or hit you with a fair. Both of these are blocked by shield, and punished accordingly.


Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO. It can also hit a projectile TL throws to extend its duration and catch TL in it, before hitting him for massive damage and knockback, potentially killing him insanely early.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. It can bypass TL’s usual projectile wall in a pinch, and send him offstage at an awkward angle. Be sure not to overuse this, however, as it is easily punished.



Stages to consider:


Battlefield is your best bet in this scenario. TL can give you some trouble with up air strings by trapping you on a platform, but since TL has bad landing options, you can do the same, if not more. Unlike Link, TL does not have as much range to fully benefit from Battlefield’s platforms.


Lylat is generally a good Ganon stage, but it benefits both parties in which both characters can easily get stuck under the lip of the stage, leading to massive rage. TL can make use of Lylat’s main platform to projectile camp, while Ganon can make use of the three higher platforms for early Kos and platform trapping.

Smashville is another good option as the smaller base platform allows you to approach with less distance, and the moving platforms. Overall, the stage is fair for both parties.

Dream Land 64 plays a lot like the matchup on BF. Unlike Battlefield, it has a lower ceiling, but the stage itself is larger, making approaching more difficult than its more aesthetic counterpart. It's a pretty decent stage if you have rage and need to land one solid kill. Hence, pick this stage if you feel comfortable with the three platforms and BF is banned.

Final Destination is not as bad an option as it sounds, but TL is extremely comfortable here with no platforms. Even though you can make use of his bad landing options, he can make life a bit boring and hard for you by pelting you with projectiles.

Duck Hunt is a wide stage, but the ducks help with stale moves and the high blast zones make it difficult for Sheik to land an up air kill against you. It benefits TL more than you, since he’s far agile than you and he can use that fact to weave in and out, forcing you to approach.

Please ban T&C. It does nothing to you other than make the matchup easier for TL



Short Summary of Matchup:

Toon Link’s matchup against Ganon is similar, but not the same as how Link should play against him. Ganon benefits that TL is lighter and has less range, but dislikes how TL is far more mobile, making it harder to hit him. Being mobile means TL can weave in and out easily, and combined with a strong projectile game, TL can afford to camp Ganon.



However, the easiest thing to do when faced with this is to shield (preferably powershield). TL does not have good grab options and his grab itself is punishable so it’s encouraged to shield TL’s projectiles unless you’re at a high percent, in which back throw for TL becomes a kill option. Overall, you will be approaching as Ganon, and blocking what TL pelts at you. Tilts are great at swatting away TL and getting good damage, while up smash is a great way to punish TL trying to come in to throw a Fair at you. Overall, knocking TL offstage and taking advantage of his linear recovery (but one that travels farther than Link’s) will be beneficial to winning the matchup.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 50-50

Ratio of the Matchup:
50-50


Thanks to: A2ZOMG A2ZOMG @Vermanubis adom4 adom4 @Blobface @_Magus_ @Z1GMA @Opana The toon link boards who I'll tag


FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING SAMUS
 
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jmanup85

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Samus wins this MU 55/45 imo. She can't exactly camp us out very well but her charge shot is something to watch out for. Spacing with her zair is an annoying thing to get past since Ganon is tall. Her uair is something to always be mindful of since they tend to use it on stages with platforms quite a bit and then turn that into quite the bit of damage. Offstage I believe both can gimp each other pretty well but Samus can gimp us just a bit easier.

adom4 adom4 and A2ZOMG A2ZOMG would know more than I would on the subject
 
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Theosmeo

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I think if she had her melee Nair she'd be much scarier. She has a really large and consistent spike but besides that she isn't really that scary offstage.
 

Gijsbeer

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I think it's heavily in samus favor. Not because of her lackluster projectile game, but because of zair. I once brought a tournament ganondorf to 200% almost nothing but zair. Ganondorf is the very epitome of zair food. Tall, slow and no projectile. As long as I stay focused on my positioning I can zair for free. If ganon manages to somehow finally get past zair his options are just so slow I can easily get away and start zairing some more.

If the samus feels like doing something different than zair only then i can say this is one of the few MU's where missles from mid range are actually relatively safe, and samus' decent offstage game can be a problem for ganons pretty awful recovery
 

adom4

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I think it's heavily in samus favor. Not because of her lackluster projectile game, but because of zair. I once brought a tournament ganondorf to 200% almost nothing but zair. Ganondorf is the very epitome of zair food. Tall, slow and no projectile. As long as I stay focused on my positioning I can zair for free. If ganon manages to somehow finally get past zair his options are just so slow I can easily get away and start zairing some more.

If the samus feels like doing something different than zair only then i can say this is one of the few MU's where missles from mid range are actually relatively safe, and samus' decent offstage game can be a problem for ganons pretty awful recovery
Zair is annoying but if you got a Ganon player to 200% with nothing but Zair i doubt he's very good in the first place.
 

Gijsbeer

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Zair is annoying but if you got a Ganon player to 200% with nothing but Zair i doubt he's very good in the first place.
*almost nothing but zair, when he chose an option I could punish with a more meaty move I did just that. But he just didnt have any way to close the space zair gave me.

Also really didnt help he let me go to FD
 

adom4

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*almost nothing but zair, when he chose an option I could punish with a more meaty move I did just that. But he just didnt have any way to close the space zair gave me.

Also really didnt help he let me go to FD
Samus isn't even that good on FD, i'm way more scared of Samus on platform heavy stages than FD where her combos are much more threatening.
I really don't feel Samus has a lot of good options but Zair in neutral, Zair is great against Ganon but it doesn't end him.
Doesn't help that Samus generally struggles to kill without charge shot, i do think Samus wins but it's still a rather close match up.
 

Xygonn

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After the Ganon JMU on Discord I think it's slightly in Samus' favor. Kosk crushed me winning probably 90% of the games, but I went more than even with the other Ganon's I played against. Ganon's uair is brutal, and honestly, I don't want to take Ganon to battlefield. I want a wider main platform to give me room to run and maneuver. FD isn't bad, but I prefer DH, SV, or TnC. Dreamland is good too because wind is just nasty vs Ganon. Ganon is one of the few characters we can use bombs in the neutral as part of the zoning game. Zair is great. We have good combos and good gimp options (bomb is great off stage vs typical low recoveries of better Ganon players, nair is good, fair is good). The trick of course is that Ganon can punish Samus' pretty laggy moves, and it only takes one or two mistakes to lose a stock against a good Ganon. That uair can punish most of our recovery option safely so we really have to mixup bomb stalls, tether recoveries and upb recoveries to not get gimped.
 
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Shuckle_SSB

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The MU is 55-45 in my eyes, Samus's favor. Sure, Samus wins neutral with Zair spacing and a strong projectile game against Ganondorf, she combos him like crazy, and can fully take advantage of his very linear recovery just like Captain Falcon (bombs/Dair), but with just ONE mistake with any of Samus's laggy moves (a grab, laggy aerial, etc.) will be the end of Samus's stock most likely since Ganondorf is just so strong. He doesn't have a whole lot in terms of combos against her of course, but just getting a few hits in, and punishing a whiffed grab is all the dude needs to take our stock away.
So in short, most of the time Samus will win this MU if both players are on equal skill level. But Ganondorf can just so easily turn things around that he doesn't fall short of a 55-45 MU ratio. I'd say its 60-40 in her favor just because of her insane gimping abilities against him, but Ganondorf's up-close punish factor is too big to overlook.
 

Theosmeo

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Kosk crushed me winning probably 90% of the games.
Kosk is basically actually Old Manondorf, you should be proud of those 10 percents bub. It's too bad he's terminally ill and has 6 months to live tops.

Offstage against Samus is actually pretty interesting for me, if one ever comes down after you you can back pedal to dark dive, if she opts for a Dair you'll grab her and if she drops a bomb you can move to the other side of it, get hit, tech wall jump, and make it back clean. The only problem is that if you do catch the Dair she can tech wall jump and Dair you again so this isn't always optimal.
 

Shuckle_SSB

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Well I meant whenever Ganondorf tries to recover vertically, a good Samus will almost always be able to get a guaranteed bomb spike. (dropping bomb onto opponent, bomb hits, you follow-up with a Dair). As for trying to gimp a Ganondorf recovering horizontally with side B, Nair can gimp with its knock back angle, and Bair can kill if high enough. As we all know, you can challenge his side B with good aerials.
EDIT: Once Ganondorf is forced to Up B Samus can dropzone Dair and get a spike no problem.
 
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Theosmeo

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Well I meant whenever Ganondorf tries to recover vertically, a good Samus will almost always be able to get a guaranteed bomb spike. (dropping bomb onto opponent, bomb hits, you follow-up with a Dair). As for trying to gimp a Ganondorf recovering horizontally with side B, Nair can gimp with its knock back angle, and Bair can kill if high enough. As we all know, you can challenge his side B with good aerials.
EDIT: Once Ganondorf is forced to Up B Samus can dropzone Dair and get a spike no problem.
Oh sorry I wasn't trying to contest your point, just saying that if we read going for Dair we can fake and up B(this one's called Dark dive, side B is flame choke) and then go lower than we'd be able to recover normally, then we could grab onto Samus to gain height and make it back, not reliable by any means, but I've done it in tournament.

Samus's Dair is massive and a reliable spike so this is one(albeit sketchy) way to deal with it. It's why I think the stock up B is more useful for Samus than our usually much superior custom alternative Dark fists.

Also side B outspaces Samus's Nair(it's pretty huge, like captain falcon dash grab huge), however Bair beats it.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Starting from the Samus matchup, it'd be better if you used my reserved posts Xinc Xinc

It'd make life much easier for you. Divide the other 37 or so characters within those two posts.


@Vermanubis should be able to switch them to you. Just make a note at the bottom saying that the rest of the MUs are below.
 
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DungeonMaster

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I like Gannon in Smash 4 quite a bit. He lives and dies by a few good reads, and there's a lot of fun to that.
However, this matchup is absolutely terrible for him. It's one of the few that Samus can actually use her missiles to zone and with equal reads Samus' damage output is 3x Gannon's so it's very uneven.
If fully realize you guys are not your standard for glory Gannon, which much like little mac misrepresent that character's potential, but I have reams of footage of stuff that looks very similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er3eVCqVu80#t=244
I'm sure most Samus on for-glory roll and spam, so it's not a good mark for that character either.
Both are read and punish characters, but one has combos, projectiles, kill projectile, shield breaks, z-air zoning and is faster. Samus is likewise not going to die in a few hits like a lightweight. It's going to take more reads.
If the reads are equal, Gannon's going to lose, hard.
 

jmanup85

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I like Gannon in Smash 4 quite a bit. He lives and dies by a few good reads, and there's a lot of fun to that.
However, this matchup is absolutely terrible for him. It's one of the few that Samus can actually use her missiles to zone and with equal reads Samus' damage output is 3x Gannon's so it's very uneven.
If fully realize you guys are not your standard for glory Gannon, which much like little mac misrepresent that character's potential, but I have reams of footage of stuff that looks very similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er3eVCqVu80#t=244
I'm sure most Samus on for-glory roll and spam, so it's not a good mark for that character either.
Both are read and punish characters, but one has combos, projectiles, kill projectile, shield breaks, z-air zoning and is faster. Samus is likewise not going to die in a few hits like a lightweight. It's going to take more reads.
If the reads are equal, Gannon's going to lose, hard.
I'll be nice in saying this but if you ever use missiles against me in neutral I'll destroy you for it. Your damage output is not near mine and I can just outright beat your range with some of my moves. That was also the worst example I've ever seen in my life because that looked like FG roll spammers being scrubs.
 

Hapajin

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I don't particularly mind this match, Ganon is pretty easy to combo, but I struggle landing against good Ganons. I'm still caught off guard by some of his moves which have surprisingly low end-lag, and timing punishes can be trick for me. Unfortunately for Ganon, I think his poor mobility helps Samus a lot, as I usually get a lot of charge time and it's pretty easy to escape pressure. I put this match around 55-45 in Samus' favor.
 

DungeonMaster

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I'll be nice in saying this but if you ever use missiles against me in neutral I'll destroy you for it. Your damage output is not near mine and I can just outright beat your range with some of my moves. That was also the worst example I've ever seen in my life because that looked like FG roll spammers being scrubs.
I'm not sure if this was intended for discussion or just bluster. Saying you'll never get hit by missiles ( a combo starter ) is a lot like me saying I'll never get hit by slow Ganon attacks because they're so slow. Neither statement is true.
Likewise, I don't think you've played much vs. Samus, her moves have excellent range, all her tilts out range Ganon's - unless you're saying Gannon's Up-tilt which is universally recognized as lol territory.
Ganon's damage output is no where even close to Samus' he has a handful of jump-in combos but that's it, it's all single hits to death, Samus is the complete opposite.
This game is fundamentally more like art, rather than science, this matchup is not at all balanced.
Playing Ganon is a statement to your opponent "I have really good reads, I'm going to try to read you like a book". If the reads fail, there's an empty shell of no-real-options.
This is the harsh truth, this game is more like art than science. And for the record again, I do really enjoy playing Ganon, I'm merely realistic about the character design.
 
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adom4

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I'm not sure if this was intended for discussion or just bluster. Saying you'll never get hit by missiles ( a combo starter ) is a lot like me saying I'll never get hit by slow Gannon attacks because they're so slow. Neither statement is true.
Likewise, I don't think you've played much vs. Samus, her moves have excellent range, all her tilts out range Gannon's - unless you're saying Gannon's Up-tilt which is universally recognized as lol territory.
Gannon's damage output is no where even close to Samus' he has a handful of jump-in combos but that's it, it's all single hits to death, Samus is the complete opposite.
This game is fundamentally more like art, rather than science, this matchup is not at all balanced.
Playing Gannon is a statement to your opponent "I have really good reads, I'm going to try to read you like a book". If the reads fail, there's an empty shell of no-real-options.
This is the harsh truth, this game is more like art than science. And for the record again, I do really enjoy playing Gannon, I'm merely realistic about the character design.
I have played the best Samus in Europe (Lian) and you can't tell me i don't know the match up, plus 2 other Samuses agree here that's it's still a close match up even if we lose.
And pray tell how does any of her tilts outrange Ganon's D-tilt.
You can talk fancy as much as you want it doesn't impress me, you really don't know jack **** about this match up.
Also it's Ganon not Gannon you heretic
 

jmanup85

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I'm not sure if this was intended for discussion or just bluster. Saying you'll never get hit by missiles ( a combo starter ) is a lot like me saying I'll never get hit by slow Gannon attacks because they're so slow. Neither statement is true.
Likewise, I don't think you've played much vs. Samus, her moves have excellent range, all her tilts out range Gannon's - unless you're saying Gannon's Up-tilt which is universally recognized as lol territory.
Gannon's damage output is no where even close to Samus' he has a handful of jump-in combos but that's it, it's all single hits to death, Samus is the complete opposite.
This game is fundamentally more like art, rather than science, this matchup is not at all balanced.
Playing Gannon is a statement to your opponent "I have really good reads, I'm going to try to read you like a book". If the reads fail, there's an empty shell of no-real-options.
This is the harsh truth, this game is more like art than science. And for the record again, I do really enjoy playing Gannon, I'm merely realistic about the character design.
All your talk means crap to me because I've played really good Samus mains and they can attest to this. I got a better idea, put up or shut up.
 

iDreamTheater

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I'm not sure if this was intended for discussion or just bluster. Saying you'll never get hit by missiles ( a combo starter ) is a lot like me saying I'll never get hit by slow Gannon attacks because they're so slow. Neither statement is true.
Likewise, I don't think you've played much vs. Samus, her moves have excellent range, all her tilts out range Gannon's - unless you're saying Gannon's Up-tilt which is universally recognized as lol territory.
Gannon's damage output is no where even close to Samus' he has a handful of jump-in combos but that's it, it's all single hits to death, Samus is the complete opposite.
This game is fundamentally more like art, rather than science, this matchup is not at all balanced.
Playing Gannon is a statement to your opponent "I have really good reads, I'm going to try to read you like a book". If the reads fail, there's an empty shell of no-real-options.
This is the harsh truth, this game is more like art than science. And for the record again, I do really enjoy playing Gannon, I'm merely realistic about the character design.
Dungeon, fairly recently the Samus Discord group completed a jmu (joint matchup discussion) with the Ganon group and the conclusion is that the mu is only 55:45 in our favor. Ganondorf mains will be very practiced at powershielding our projectiles and have a very potent edgeguarding game that is not to be underestimated.
 

DungeonMaster

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Thanks guys for harping on my spelling. Good luck to your invited "conversation".
Talk is cheap. We can play anytime, add me.

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Gannon

iDreamTheater iDreamTheater Agreed, consensus is he loses. My opinion is in agreement with than consensus, but I feel he loses by a much wider margin. They invited opinions, that's my opinion.
 
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mgleed

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This is the harsh truth.
Did someone say opinion? I'm just glad that we agree that talk is cheap--I've seen a lot of it here. It is, in any case, good to hear other people's perspectives.

I don't have a lot of offline exp. vs. Samus, but I think WiFi benefits her a lot more than it benefits us due to the amount of shielding we need. I've lost a couple times to Samus players at locals, but each time was a very narrow margin and the players never swept the set. I would agree with iDreamTheater iDreamTheater and their discord and say this MU is 45:55. We depend on our ability to edgeguard her, and we have to be precise with our powershielding and spacing.
 
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-_ellipsis_-

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The samus discord group recently had a joint matchup session with the dorf discord. I got to play with A2ZOMG and Koskinator. Here's one of our matches:


We agreed that this is a pretty good representation of the MU. We agreed that the MU is about 55:45 in Samus's favor, perhaps more.

On paper, Samus has greater damage output and threatens more space. Her punish game is not necessarily stronger, but it is more dynamic with long range charge shot able to punish almost any whiffed attack or read at most any range. Samus can dtilt oos most of Dorf's kit. Bair oos works on dorf, and kills.

In practice, samus has moves with both precise hitboxes that can be easier to whiff than most, on top of considerate endlag, that dorf can punish upclose and get meaty damage in. Dorf can give samus some landing problems, as well as gimping tethers and upb with his upair. Dorf has a pretty strong nair that can outright beat out our aerials.

Here's a bonus video of a decent Dorf I met on FG

 
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mgleed

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The samus discord group recently had a joint matchup session with the dorf discord. I got to play with A2ZOMG and Koskinator. Here's one of our matches:


We agreed that this is a pretty good representation of the MU. We agreed that the MU is about 55:45 in Samus's favor, perhaps more.
I think the gameplay on both ends in that vid with A2 is good, but I think it's too bad that the representative match is taken from one where the opponent SD's at 0%. In any case, I'm sure this is taken into account by those watching--the game was really quite close.
 

-_ellipsis_-

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You're not wrong, gleed, but I felt it was worth showing how neither was completely dominating the other, which can be a sentiment common on MU discussion.
 

Scarlet Jile

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Interesting consensus about the Samus. One of my primary training partners is a Samus main, and there are a lot of tricks to the character that I felt like didn't work with enough matchup experience. I would have put the matchup at about even on paper just because of how tedious the neutral is and how hard it is to approach with the threat of charged shot.
 

Afro Smash

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Yh I played Adom at beast and play a friend who mains Ganon often, I'd put the MU at 60:40 but 55:45 is reasonable too
 

Abbey Street

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Gerudo followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all non-DLC characters, click here. Samus can only be jabbed out of Choke, neutralizing the reward for landing one. Samus's average sized tech rolls make roll punishes familiar to those who have commonly played matchups like Sheik and the Ganon ditto. As Samus's getup attack has a considerably long range like Corrin's, punishing with pivot moves can prove to be difficult, if not impossible; short hop options are thus the easiest way to go about punishing them. At the edge, SH FAir is the optimal punish option for getup attack.

Some tips for the MU:
  • Figure out the Samus's habits and when they like to use ZAir. Observing when in their jump they do this will allow you to better time shields and make neutral easier.
    F-tilt when properly timed beats standard Missiles and grounded Wizard's Foot clanks with them. This does not work with Super Missiles; Dash Attack will clank with those instead.
  • Learn to punish Samus's astoundingly bad roll on reaction - being able to punish this slow roll will improve your positive state against almost every Samus.
  • When going on the offensive, you may want to find a method of popping Samus up into the air. Samus has very poor options for dealing with enemies below her (especially considering Ganon's UAir can beat her Bombs), which means optimal juggle situations for Ganon. In addition, try positioning yourself behind her and below to remove her annoying ZAir from the equation.
  • Fully charged Charge Beam is NOT transcendent (unlike Mewtwo's)! You can nullify it with a FAir or BAir if they are fresh, thus providing a landing option if they try to cover your landing that way.
  • With the exception of ZAir, all of your aerials outrange Samus's (except maybe BAir). Try going for trades in the air if you feel you have a clean shot at her.
  • Samus should be scared offstage as you can easily edgeguard her. A Samus that panics when you head out to edgeguard may immediately ZAir themselves to the ledge and pull up. You can try to catch them on the pull-up with a run-off BAir for a stage spike, or a UAir Tipman if you think they will delay the pull-up.
Custom moves:

I have no experience with custom moves against Samus. However your best bet is the classic 2-1-2-2 setup. Samus will probably go for a 2-2-1-1 setup to try to zone you with her slow Charge Beams (think Laura's projectile in Street Fighter V but more powerful) as well as the better homing Missiles.

Sugg. Custom MU ratio for the matchup: 45-55 Slight Disadvantage

Sugg. MU ratio for the matchup: 45-55 Slight Disadvantage
 
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Xinc

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Agreed it's probably 45-55. I'll start compiling notes and should have everything up before Monday.
 

Theosmeo

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NEVER MIND SHE JUST GOT HELLA BUFFED WE SCREWED BOIZ 105 - -5 MU

/s
but we should redo this with patch notes in mind
 

Abbey Street

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IMO, Ganon's and Samus's buffs offset.

Her damage buffs lack significance in the grand scheme of things, but the frame data changes and hitbox adjustments make her neutral better. Contrarily, Samus's increased gravity and fall speed make her more susceptible to combos and strings, which means, combined with our reduced IASA frames on Dash Attack (and the confirms that said balance change gives us), our reward for getting in in this MU improves by a considerable margin. Still gotta fight through neutral, but once you get in (or, perhaps, if you can get in) you gain great reward.

After playing this matchup a couple of times I think it is still 45-55.
 
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-_ellipsis_-

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Her fall speed makes her a little more susceptible to combos, yes, but her aerial mobility made all her aerials safer on shield and drastically increased her neutral game. Also, faf buffs on a few of her moves made them a bit safer so dorf can't punish them.
 
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