The British Thread : UK Circuit idea on most recent post !!!!

[Cpt.Zeppo]

Regardless of what else Joe said,yeah my original point has gotten lost lol.As I've said I reserve judgement for when I play it and I will play it hopefully alot tomorrow.I dont have much else to say on the subject atm nor can I be arsed,it was just that I had to iron out my point to some people and it digressed a little.

 

[Mr P]

My opinion on it all for what it's worth comes from what Wes said in that post of his in another thread. Chess doesn't have L canceling either.

It was something like that anyways. The way i look at it is just because these things aren't present (which i would argue at top level play get negated none the less as all the top players are capable of doing everything) the game CAN BE still very much competitive.

No L canceling simply just means the L cancel is automatically happening. It is essentially boasting everyone to a slightly higher level of play than they would begin with in melee. That is not to say that the game is void of competition because of it.

From a player who has been around for a long time and at one time done pretty well now and then - i've NEVER had any tech skill. I've always struggled to do the most basic of ****. And yeah i've done pretty well. On the other hand theres people, stadium players for example, who are insanely good technically but that is a farcry from saying they are good at competitive versus play. Both ideas negate the reliability on tech skill for a competitive scene.

I talked to old gfox on msn.... pretty long.



P|³ says:
oh man i could spend an hour argueing with the post you just made

P|³ says:
but im not

Ryan says:
XD feel free if you want

Ryan says:
its just my opinion on it from my view as ive never been technically good

P|³ says:
its not the same things as the point i was making

P|³ says:
but from what youve said ill say this

P|³ says:
how far is your lack of tech skill going to get you now, not even very far as far as the uk metagame is concerned

P|³ says:
when l cancelling is removed a level of skill is removed that was requireed in melee, it removes depth from the game

Ryan says:
yeah i get what your saying

P|³ says:
the chess analgy doesnt make sense

Ryan says:
the technical ability of the player gives a certain level of what the player is capable of applying in the game

Ryan says:
the higher the tech skill the more they can do

Ryan says:
but, it is independant of their capability in mind games - thats where the chess analogy comes into it

Ryan says:
if everyone was completely capable of everything technically then it would be like chess

Ryan says:
technical ability in other words is a side product of ability that allows or rather doesnt allow you to apply what you want to do

Ryan says:
like in the chess analogy someone technically capable playing against someone with little tech skill would be someone in chess playing someone else with less pieces to begin with

P|³ says:
but when you are talking about the game as a whole and the depth available in it then you include all the pieces that are there, no-one in chess starts with less pieces. The depth in smash that allows for soo many mindgames is in the fact that melee was an incredobly techie game

P|³ says:
you play smash with less pieces and thats your choice it doesnt get you very far and you know that but we are talking the game as a whole here

P|³ says:
when you are removing all the technical nuances of melee you are removing a lot of mindgames too

P|³ says:
making a less deep game

Ryan says:
yeah your right about that, it removes depth but what im trying to say is that it doesnt nessesarily make it not a competitive game

P|³ says:
im not saying its not competitive

P|³ says:
theres always winners and losers in every game

Ryan says:
it does without a doubt remove a division of skill and thus depth but what i mean is that technical ability is just your own limit of how capable you are of doing what you want to do in the game

Ryan says:
top level smash everyone is technically faultless, so it is starting everyone at that basis and basing the placing of skill purely on the application of strategy and mind games, the intelligance and application of the player

Ryan says:
that is of course less deep than having a technical ability variable but it is what i prefer and see it as a more applying competitive game. thats why id liken it to chess

Ryan says:
anyone can pick up a piece of wood and move it

P|³ says:
your slightly bias in the fact that you choose to be as lazy as possible and not be technical, im not sure exactly what it is you are trying to say though but when something as basic as crouch cancelling is removed then the game becomes a lot less deep even on a basic playing level, the removal of these kind of techniques drastically reduces the level of gameplay envolved

Ryan says:
aye im being bias lol no getting away from that but what my main point is that if the technical variable is removed (which does remove depth) it still makes it more of a basis on the mind games of the player. it starts everyone at the top and the only way to rate a player is by their inteligance in the game. removing a variable and yet, for me, making it a more pure analysis of the skill of the player

P|³ says:
but you see its much harder to sepereate players in skill because there are far less variables in the game to serperate 2 players. The game is always based on mindgames no matter what level you are playing at and when you remove a huge chunk of the techniques that make them the mindgames go deeper then you have a game that is simpler and quite possibly not as fun

Ryan says:
yeah the only thing that worries me is removing the posibilities of the player removes the opertunity for mind games. my point on the removal for tech skill only comes in that all the players now arent limited by their fingers


P|³ says:
basically you are agreeing with me and saying that it makes it easier for less technically able people

Ryan says:
yeah

Ryan says:
but i think that adds depth in the best way i can describe it start everyone with the same number of chess pieces

Ryan says:
not depth thats a bad word

Ryan says:
but a higher level of competitive play

P|³ says:
it doesnt add any depth

Ryan says:
no it reduces depth

P|³ says:
the difference between us is that you see less depth being a good thing

Ryan says:
yeah i guess thats it

P|³ says:
right well i guess that saves me posting again

Ryan says:
XDXD


**** it, ive posted this anyway.

 

[J03]

utter ******** XD imo. and if you dont believe me then try playing the game.

 

[Mr P]

utter ******** XD imo. and if you dont believe me then try playing the game.

The above post was directed to what ryan had said in his post and is not really much to do with the points i had made prior.

Joe i am making no assumtions about brawl, i seriously hope that new adv techs are discovered that make brawl a deep game that allows for very competitive gameplay, im not saying that brawl is not a deep game but questioning the fact that it has removed a lot of the techniques that made melee what it was. Again i will restate that im not saying brawl is a shallow game i am saying that i hope it is not shallow and things will be discovered that make it a great game

 

[pictish freak]

P|³ says:
when l cancelling is removed a level of skill is removed that was requireed in melee, it removes depth from the game

Technical feats are not depth. For an example, imagine melee but performing a smash takes frame perfect timing. Players who could or could not perform this would fall into two different levels of play, and undoubtly those that could still smash would win more than those who could not. That isn't relevant to competitive depth though. That has nothing to do with outsmarting the opponent.

Technical skill is important in melee because if you can't execute it, you wont win. If you can execute it but aren't smart, you'll still lose.

The technical skill isn't depth. It's merely a muscle memory flat out 'can you hit the buttons accurately and quickly'. Most people would agree that tournaments shouldn't be a comparison of who can press buttons fastest and most accurately with tech skill as opposed to seeing how is the smartest player capable of out-doing opponents (that's the hard part - the bit where you're fighting the enemy. Tech skill is like fighting the game engine.)

Thus, if l-cancelling was removed from melee but you automatically l-cancelled every aerial without an arbitrary input, worse players would not win. There would be no less depth. There would just be one less technical feat being forced to perform to do the 'actual' part of combat, the interaction with the enemies mind.

So, while you can certainly make a case that the risk/reward system in brawl will not be fruitful, or that for some reason mind games will not play an important enough role to distinguish a smart player from anyone else.

Can't stress it enough, tech skill demands wont make a game better. Tech skill is only a pre-req to play, not the gameplay itself. Fast dumb foxes all over the place are my source for that. You can be 'skilled' at technical feats - but you can do that in training mode. The part that involves competition is your interaction with other people. And, again, I can't think of a better example of how l-cancelling isn't depth than the auto-l-cancelling argument. L-cancelling automatically in melee wouldn't make the game any different at all, except that more people could play competitively. They would only win if they were smarter than you, and you would not have this tech skill barrier to seperate good tech skilled players from poorly tech skilled players who are smart.

A good comparison would be in an MMO. Try fighting someone at a significant level disadvantage. Even if you know the game better, are smarter, and make the right choices, you'll still lose and if you're roughly even in skill you'll lose. In smash, technical skill creates a similar barrier. Both levels and tech skill must be grinded at with time investment, with some people being better at levelling or tech skill than others.

Anyway whatever ~_~ can't convey this point any more clearly.

Edit: reading again it seems for Euan that tech skill and depth are one in the same. I hope I've shown how the rest of us see them as seperate. No doubt, being skillfull at technical feats is hard, requires a lot of work, and seperates one kind of player frm the other. But not in any meaningful way. If you removed all technical requirements from melee but retained the exact mechanics and all mechanics could be executed via simple button presses, it'd be as deep a game, just less technically intensive. Being technically intensive is not a good virtue for a game, the level of depth comes from smart choices, spacing, risk/reward scenarios involving grab/block/throw scenario's, edge guarding mind games, etc.

 

[Mr P]

Without technical skill you cannot compete at the highest level of the metagame in melee because you dont have the same options that you do without being as technical. no "smart" non technical player can make it to the top of the metagame. it's not 2005 anymore.

In short i completely disagree with you that technical skill does not add any depth to a game, i think that is ridiculous but i cant be bothered with a full response right now, ill do that later.

 

[pictish freak]

You still don't understand my point, as it's not something disputable I'm trying to get across, I'll break it down a bit more.

I understand that wavedashing, l-cancelling and a lot more add depth to melee. This is true. However, these are mechanics that are adding depth (as you have more options with which to mind game your opponent). The ability to perform these (just the raw inputting of commands) does not add any depth.

Imagine a gamecube controller with some extra buttons for like wavedash and waveshine and l-cancelling is automatic etc etc. Exact same melee game down to every single detail, except every feat of tech skill is very easy to perform physically. The game would be exactly as deep, and have the same options, but you would no longer need a certain level of physical dexterity to have your mind games win a match. Alternatively, ask yourself if all short hops taking 1 frame timing would make the game deeper. Just more technically intensive.

So if you are saying that due to the lag of aerials after landing from attacks, you have less options and with less options comes less mind games and thus less depth, then that would be fair. But if aerials have generally less lag now, and it's easy to finish aerials before landing and so on then in that case you have a fair amount of options, you just no longer arbitrarily need to press the L button when you land.

I understand that no wavedashing means no options from wavedashing, but it was the mechanics that lent itself to depth, not the tech skill required to do it. Just try and seperate execution and mechanics in your mind, because there's no reason to arbitrarily make a mechanic hard to execute (one frame smash timing, for example) since all it'd do is make a barrier to climb before you can be good at the game.

Anyone else reading this and see what I'm trying to say? It's not even about if brawl is good or not, it's just making a distinction between what is or isn't depth in a tournament game.

 

[Mr P]

You still don't understand my point, as it's not something disputable I'm trying to get across, I'll break it down a bit more.

I understand that wavedashing, l-cancelling and a lot more add depth to melee. This is true. However, these are mechanics that are adding depth (as you have more options with which to mind game your opponent). The ability to perform these (just the raw inputting of commands) does not add any depth.

Imagine a gamecube controller with some extra buttons for like wavedash and waveshine and l-cancelling is automatic etc etc. Exact same melee game down to every single detail, except every feat of tech skill is very easy to perform physically. The game would be exactly as deep, and have the same options, but you would no longer need a certain level of physical dexterity to have your mind games win a match. Alternatively, ask yourself if all short hops taking 1 frame timing would make the game deeper. Just more technically intensive.

So if you are saying that due to the lag of aerials after landing from attacks, you have less options and with less options comes less mind games and thus less depth, then that would be fair. But if aerials have generally less lag now, and it's easy to finish aerials before landing and so on then in that case you have a fair amount of options, you just no longer arbitrarily need to press the L button when you land.

I understand that no wavedashing means no options from wavedashing, but it was the mechanics that lent itself to depth, not the tech skill required to do it. Just try and seperate execution and mechanics in your mind, because there's no reason to arbitrarily make a mechanic hard to execute (one frame smash timing, for example) since all it'd do is make a barrier to climb before you can be good at the game.

Anyone else reading this and see what I'm trying to say? It's not even about if brawl is good or not, it's just making a distinction between what is or isn't depth in a tournament game.

How interesting of you to solely pick out the l cancelling comment because it automatically happens in brawl. You know exactly what i mean when i am talking about depth and that is the number of variables that are available in the game, yes l cancelling is done automatically in brawl it doesnt remove any depth in that respect it just means that now there is no seraration between players who can and cant l cancel, i never said anything about execution having anything to do with the depth of the game. All i was talking about was the number of available techniques (which looks to be considerably lower in brawl) being removed and making the game less deep "crouch cancelling" something which conveniently does not happen automatically in brawl has gone and makes the game lose that aspect of play, less variable less available mindgames etc....

 

[Kone]

My thoughts :

1. I love joe

2. I love that pictish is back. Thankgod for clever posting.

3. Ryans replies to euan in the msn conversation were amazing.

Play brawl then we'll all argue

 

[pictish freak]

I wasn't picking on anything special with l-cancelling, just using the easiest to explain example.

I'm glad you get my point, but you certainly make a good argument with there being less options than in melee. This is an argument I can't make sheerly from a hypothetical stand point.

all I can really say is that with fast mobility reduced (wavedashing was really fast direction change from any point on the ground and stuff) we will probably see a greater focus on things such as spacing and approaches and feints/tricks. Taking the typical example from Sirlin's Yomi article, it'd more or less be like -

I love to approach with X. X is a hax move that comes out fast and is quite hard to counter. You find specific counter Y, I bait Y to hit you with Z which isn't as good as X, then you find a more normal counter to Z but I go 'haha psyche' and hit you with X. This sounds like rock paper scissors, but then you realise there's a huge amount of risk/reward leading to psychological warfare that makes mind games. Risk/reward is the basis of any competitive fighter, smash will just focus more on spacing and baiting and whatnot, so as far as being competitive goes, as long as there's enough of it and it's got many complex layers, I have high hopes.

That's purely speculative though, time to wait and see how it unfolds. I don't think you need 'new WDing' to replace old WDing and whatnot, as long as the core gameplay has enough layers of depth in risk/reward. Oh, and there's the new diminished returns on knockback which I've got an eye on as being something that could turn into something very interesting but we'll see.

Sorry if I came off confrontational by the way. You seemed a bit offended by my post but I wasn't trying to have a go, just convey my point properly to make sure I fully understood what you were saying - i.e, not that execution difficulty = depth. So yeah, I'm glad.

 

[J03]

ill write up a Marth impression later, for the time being i feel pretty terrible and Will has offered to do one for Toon link. Also Dedede, Olimar, Sheik, Falcon and Ike

 

[J03]

Euan: the lack of wave dashing is annoying, it removes some flow, options and ultimately some depth. the whole l-cancelling thing is irrelevant as its automatic. the difference between a player able to do advance techs and players who cant is a distinguishing feature in any game but one advanced tech which was a mandatory button press every time you landed shouldn't be a defining feature. Dash-dancing hasn't gone, its just performed differently now, jump-cancelled grabs have been replaced by dash-cancelled grabs. crouch cancelling is a ********. yes its useful but it isnt a pro-active advanced tech and promotes campy play imo so im happy its gone.

its pretty obvious that advanced techs in brawl will be more character specific imo adding MORE depth then generic techs that make you better at the game. also the game is just not slower, its just not...its really not. the characters are slightly bigger and the stages slightly smaller, ONLY SLIGHTLY. so the game is SLIGHTLY slower to counter act this, its pretty perfectly balance. it does not imo remove any movement mind-games either.

Z: i said wait and combos will come. well there here, the combos are actually ridiculous, DI seems totally irrelevant sometimes XD. also id like to point out the edge cancelling is still in, so starting a combo is similar to melee but maintenance of combos seems much more based on working around platforms. i don't think sick combos will be able to done on early in the first stock with some characters lol. you stale a move down and use it in conjunction with the generally weaker moves. plus you can turn just before you jump in brawl so you go backwards with the same momentum, so you can follow and finish a combo with a b-air if its the strongest move.

combo performed with Wolf (obv) on Falcon. 2 up-tilts, SH up-air, EC (edge cancelled ) f-air, b-air and followed falcon reversed with another b-air.

another one of Marth. up-tilt, up-air, up-air, jump to top platform up-tilt then b-air to another b-air intercepting the recover.

i honestly don't think that tier list will be particularly effective. characters can be sorted in groups like a giant game of rock, paper, scissors. i've actually been giving a fair bit of thought and after the games been around a while longer i wouldn't mind coming up with some ideas for a more complicated tier system rather then list lol.

also for all you gimp lovers lets just say its in brawl. you just have to be quicker. but you have to be off the stage more any-ways so going off for the gimp is only natural. its worth pointing out again that you can travel much further off stage and recover now, so off stage battles are ****ing epic.

 

[Cpt.Zeppo]

Z: i said wait and combos will come. well there here, the combos are actually ridiculous, DI seems totally irrelevant sometimes XD

Nice but I hope you realise this proves absolutely nothing

 

[J03]

i know but it is a relief for me to know

 

[Cpt.Zeppo]

Played Brawl.Was alot of fun obviously,I dont quite know what to make of it but most of my worries were either laid to rest or too hard to tell at this point.They've compensated somehow for pretty much everything they've taken out,the game is obviously VERY finely tuned.

Joe I think its far too hard and kind of pointless to make any comments on the tier list at this point.Its really a big mess at the moment.What I will say is Marth translates the best from Melee imo.Stringing combos together with him are jokably easy lol.

I used mostly Falcon(as I do) and I strung together some 4 or 5 hit combos from time to time mostly using his Uair.Hes looking nice.I also really liked Fox and Squirtle.

I didnt like the tripping-I honestly dont know what they were thinking with that.Having something thats completely random can completely ruin some piping moments.

Anyway its amazing-and the stages are much better imo except FD's stupid edges.Ive been told to write an impression of falcon so i prolly obv will at some point.

 

[Kone]

Im happy Z . I agree about FDs sides. I agree about the tripping (please let them get rid of it for PAL release). I agree about squirtle.

Will have to come to TKI.

 

[DevMBC]

has the uk thread ever seen such consistently long and insightful posts? hell no, wtf is this?

 

[grayfox]

The uk is the rainman of the smash communities. Most of the time he just looks ******** but occasionally hes the best of times

 

[BloodBowler]

I spent all weekend playing Brawl at Brawl bag. Marth is still Marth. Still amazing, still ridiculous, still tipper hell.

Zamus's combos seem to be insultingly simple, amazing recovery though.

Hitstun on the whole seems to have multiplied, making DI that much easier to perform and lives longer lasting anyway.

Spent most of my weekend playing ROBOT as I find him easy to pick up and apply as well as just amazing. His moves are a little awkward (Esp, Back and Down air as they affect your momentum, nair takes a while to come out) But on the whole I find him ace. Terrific recovery, Up + B can be altered and used by mixing up presses of the B button or up on the control pad. Down + B charges really quickly and has a fair bit of power behind it, fantastic for edgeguarding and low percent kills, even more so when combined with his laser. Fair is win.

Sorry if this is wordy, I love ROBOT.

 

[PDOT]

cant wait to pick up toon link

 

[Aiko]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145370
Uk brawl video thread. Got a load of friendlies uploading now, will be up soon.

 

[J03]

and throw him into a ravine?

 

[PDOT]

throw him into first place at edbeginning

 

[THeFLash]

Hi all

this post is pretty much off topic atm but i just wanted to say hi as I have lurked on these forums for a few months and havnt actually started posting...

im just wondering if there are any events happening in or around the south east area anytime soon and this thread seemed like the place to ask.

 

[Kone]

Flash - in all honesty the UK melee scene is small, healthy but competitive. The next tournament is taken place in Liverpool in april i believe. There is a thread round here if your interested. However, due to said communities size dont expect a tournament in your local area, not until brawl at least and thats a maybe. To be involved you will have to travel, but its worth it.


RE: Brawl

BB - yeah ROBs awesome. He is also vary awkward to play against for the positives you mentioned. His recoveries hard to gimp and the awkward hitboxes on his aerials make it hard, atm, to get round him. Good going tho =p

Also, SDB havign a get together 1st march weekend. Expect some vids up from the elite crew in the UK.


Ed

 

[AmcD]

Zamus's combos seem to be insultingly simple, amazing recovery though.
.

I disagree. I find shes more like Falcon than Sheik with less power. Her combos are not simple from my experience.

 

[Aiko]

more brawl and CHJ vids up now. Youtube has slowed down again so i'll try and upload the rest of CHJ later today, if i cant then tomorrow morning is more likely

 

[Kone]

Uk Smashboards Ladder league

By 2moro night I shall hopefully have brawl up and running online. Im going to attempt to play jam. If matches are not lagggy Im going to attempt to setup a ladder league. Ill run it as a UK smashboards ladder league. In the future I expect that there will be alot of ladder league about. Hopefully by setting up the first ladder league before brawl hits it will become one of the larger, more competitive and more 'official' UK league. In otherwords the premier league of ladder leagues.

To keep it competitive membership will be accepted from smashboards posters only and those within the UK. That way it can be a unofficial way at keeping tabs on palyers performances and improvements outside of tournaments aswell as provide a means to play skilled opponenets and be part of a compeittive environment. Keeping it smashboards allows the members to communicate with each other through a easy means ie sorting out matches etc.

Im guessign atm there will be few people able to join it. If you are able or interested please let me know and we will kick it off and see how it goes. Beta style.

Plus, letting people know of my intentions of runnign a large, pro league when brawl hits the UK. ie as it develops will have an official smashboards thread and its own website

Ed

 

[Aiko]

yeah im in.

 

[Bronze]

My housemate has Brawl and an online Wii so I'd love to get some Wi-fi matches in with other people who already have it sometime.

 

[PDOT]

totally forgot brawl was online omg

 

[FoulPlay]

Should be getting my Wii chipped this weekend.
If all goes well, I'll be playing Brawl next week with you guys online.

 

[Retroking2000]

wooot ... ...

 

[Amea]

Add me up when you get brawl FoulPlay, i feel a little sad right this minute beacuse i jsut can't connect to a single soul on Brawl with anyone, and i still don't have any friends to fight against! all i can do LAMEFULLY, SHOCKINGLY NOT GOOD lol obviously it's random people playing but the SPECTATOR mode i can do and bet on Japanese people playing, i watched a match earlier tonight between Zelda/Sheik and Pikachu i waged 30 coins on Zelda to win and what do you she won i made back 54 coins, but it made no difference to me, since i played the game so much already, my records state 501 matches thus far i already have 9999 coins lol

 

[Kone]

lol amea. Im waiting for my Sky Broadband to go active. It hasnt yet and I keep pestering their tech support line and they just keep telling me it could take until midnight. LOL. When i get it ill post my brawl code or wii code or w/e. How hard is it to get the wii to connect to my wireless router?

 

[Aiko]

CHJ Vids - http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3959488#post3959488

Also Ed, when I get my wii lan adapter soon, I'll play you online and anyone else. Amea up for it?

 

[Kone]

Got Broadband, howd i get my wii online lol? im a right technophobe U_U

 

[FoulPlay]

Got Broadband, howd i get my wii online lol? im a right technophobe U_U

Go into the icon on the bottom left on the Wii Menu, click Wii Settings, Go to page two, Click Internet, (3rd one down if your in Japanese language) click Connection Settings (1st one) then Connection 1, (obviously first one), Click Wireless Connection (1st one), click Search for An Access Point (First one), it should be searching at this stage, when it comes up with a message it should say this in English if your using an English wii, not sure what it'd look like in Japanese: "Choose the access point you want to connect to." click OK at the bottom and choose your connection, fill in your WEP key etc if you have one. (WEP key is the password) once done click OK and test the connection, if it is successful save the connection as your default one. (If you don't have any connections, it'll automatically become your default.)

Go back to page 2 and click number 4 "WiiConnect24", click the top one, which again is WiiConnect24, click On which should be the top one and confirm it.

Your wii should be online now, I presume Brawl will give you a friend code when you go online.

 

[king_NDj247]

can't wait till i get brawl but i'm gonna wait till the UK offical launch to play i just think its gonna take a while like melee to figure out advance techs. Also does anyone know any smashers in Hatfield or St. Albans coz i moved from the london scene recently n theres no real tournaments or many smashers out here n to get bac 2 london is a mission and b4 any1 says you should travel i do every now and again, but now im kinda broke. if there are any tell them to contact me and i might c if i can get a weekly thing going, but i'm gonna have 2 check wit my parents coz its there house.

 

[J03]

my balls are aching ****ing loads