Preface
The Bowser Discord has been going strong for some time now. This thread's goal will be to compile the information and discussion from the Discord so that people can view it at leisure here in the forum. Three topics will be the focus of the thread OP: Joint Match Up (JMU), Metagame, and Resources
Work in progress. Will update later.
JMU
Charizard
Corrin
Doctor Mario
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Luigi
Mii Brawler
Sheik
Zelda
Metagame
General Information
On what it means to be a high/top tier and the stages of Sm4sh as a game.
On mind-set.
UThrow Notes
On rage.
On regrabbing fast fallers.
On reverse FAir -> BAir follow-up (The @bushaheen ).
Positioning Notes
On what Scramble Situations mean.
On 0% shield break.
On Ganon and Falcon ledge guard.
On ADC as a landing option from up high
On Spacing Angled F-Tilt vs Shield
Tilt Stick and Controller Grip Notes
What Bowser can do w/ tilt stick.
Resouces
@Big Sean Compiled UThrow -> Reverse FAir -> BAir Spreadsheet
@KingKong_ad Updated UThrow Kill Confirm Spreadsheet
Older, but still useful, Uthrow Kill Confirm Spreadsheet by 1PokeMaster
Tough Guy Spreadsheet
Public Bowser Discord Event Calendar
The Bowser Discord has been going strong for some time now. This thread's goal will be to compile the information and discussion from the Discord so that people can view it at leisure here in the forum. Three topics will be the focus of the thread OP: Joint Match Up (JMU), Metagame, and Resources
Work in progress. Will update later.
JMU
JMU Bowser Leaderboard - The best wifi warriors.
Charizard
Corrin
Doctor Mario
JMU 5/25/17
Donkey Kong
JMU 4/3/17
Ganondorf
placeholder
Luigi
JMU 5/13/17
Mii Brawler
JMU 4/10/17
Sheik
Zelda
JMU 6/24/17
Metagame
General Information
On what it means to be a high/top tier and the stages of Sm4sh as a game.
"The high/top tiers don't necessarily have tools that shut down traditional fighting game mechanisms. Instead, what they all have in common is a tool(s) that help win the neutral hard. Sheik needles, Pikachu quick attack, Ryu combo + KO power.
It helps to break our game down into: The Neutral, Off-Stage, Checkmate
When in Neutral, players fight for control of the stage. Sheik's needles used to be an overwhelming example of a character that could control a lot of the stage with little effort. Now it's just a good example.
Off-stage (or Disadvantage) is where you want your opponents sent. It is a game into itself as you try to use your knowledge of your character's ground trap + edge guard abilities against your opponent's recovery options/habits. This is where characters that lack significant tools in the neutral, like Falco, can start to make up for that big difference.
Checkmate is just landing the KO, whether it's through a 50/50, kill confirm, or a string of traps leading into a ledge trump -> KO move. Ryu can bypass Off-Stage and take you directly to Checkmate. He's probably the only one that can do this across a massive % range.
What you see as 'shutting down' conventional fighting game tactics and identifiers is really just the bulk of Smash's variables muddling the bigger picture."
It helps to break our game down into: The Neutral, Off-Stage, Checkmate
When in Neutral, players fight for control of the stage. Sheik's needles used to be an overwhelming example of a character that could control a lot of the stage with little effort. Now it's just a good example.
Off-stage (or Disadvantage) is where you want your opponents sent. It is a game into itself as you try to use your knowledge of your character's ground trap + edge guard abilities against your opponent's recovery options/habits. This is where characters that lack significant tools in the neutral, like Falco, can start to make up for that big difference.
Checkmate is just landing the KO, whether it's through a 50/50, kill confirm, or a string of traps leading into a ledge trump -> KO move. Ryu can bypass Off-Stage and take you directly to Checkmate. He's probably the only one that can do this across a massive % range.
What you see as 'shutting down' conventional fighting game tactics and identifiers is really just the bulk of Smash's variables muddling the bigger picture."
On mind-set.
"It's not about approaching Cloud (or whoever, but we'll stick with him as an example). It's about figuring out what Cloud is looking for when you get close.
Ask yourself: Do they like to instant dash attack/DTilt burst option? Do they like to sit and charge Limit longer, even though you've stopped near them? Do they Blade Beam? Do they like to short hop out of Limit Charge to cover space?
The opening moments of the match should rarely be you going 'HAIL MARY' on a Cloud, but trying to gain information on what they want out of their Limit pressure game.
You already know his range, you know his combos, and you know his movement options."
@Cassius. adds:
"You have to stop your opponent from doing whatever they want to do.
As long as you know their ranges and what they can effectively do at specific ranges, all it takes is figuring out player-player things."
Ask yourself: Do they like to instant dash attack/DTilt burst option? Do they like to sit and charge Limit longer, even though you've stopped near them? Do they Blade Beam? Do they like to short hop out of Limit Charge to cover space?
The opening moments of the match should rarely be you going 'HAIL MARY' on a Cloud, but trying to gain information on what they want out of their Limit pressure game.
You already know his range, you know his combos, and you know his movement options."
@Cassius. adds:
"You have to stop your opponent from doing whatever they want to do.
As long as you know their ranges and what they can effectively do at specific ranges, all it takes is figuring out player-player things."
UThrow Notes
On rage.
From Discord user, Event51: "... in the back of your head, you should be looking at your opponent's percent and subtracting 3.5% for every 25% that Bowser has over 50%"
"A better rule of thumb is to know that at about 80% it's 10% less, and at 150% it's 20% less"
"A better rule of thumb is to know that at about 80% it's 10% less, and at 150% it's 20% less"
On regrabbing fast fallers.
@KingKong_ad has discovered that it is possible, around 35%, to get a vicious regrab string. Grab -> UThrow -> drift FAir -> dash Grab -> UThrow -> NAir -> dj ??? -> Profit. Testing shows that inward and no DI leads to an optimal string. DI away allows them to mash jump to get out, but you can immediate FTilt on landing before they can jump (dash grab being just a few frames too slow). If they air dodge into the ground, they get dash grabbed.
Fox, for instance, could not jump or air dodge in time to avoid the regrab without DI away, and that was stuffed by Bowser's FTilt upon Bowser landing.
More to add as KingKong labs this out w/ all the fast fallers.
Fox, for instance, could not jump or air dodge in time to avoid the regrab without DI away, and that was stuffed by Bowser's FTilt upon Bowser landing.
More to add as KingKong labs this out w/ all the fast fallers.
On reverse FAir -> BAir follow-up (The @bushaheen ).
"You want to be looking for a rising reverse FAir hit after the UThrow. You'll know you have the timing right if you hit with the upper half of Bowser as you begin to shift your momentum back. The opponent can DI away, but the true combo will catch them as they are flying in hit-stun. You can be slightly off, requiring you to BAir higher in your double jump, but it won't register as a true combo. They won't be able to air dodge in time, though, if done properly."
"Use tilt stick + claw grip if your fingers aren't fast enough. This will enable you to quickly pivot into the rising reverse FAir much more easily. You can adjust yourself for both Pro/Gamecube and Gamepad controllers."
"Use tilt stick + claw grip if your fingers aren't fast enough. This will enable you to quickly pivot into the rising reverse FAir much more easily. You can adjust yourself for both Pro/Gamecube and Gamepad controllers."
Positioning Notes
On what Scramble Situations mean.
From Cassius:
"Oh. A really short answer is that scrambles basically occur when no one has established neutral yet. It's kind of a bad term but if you're not aware of what position you're in in neutral and it hasn't been established (offense/defense), weird **** begins to happen
So, in that phase, whether neutral hasn't been established or has been lost as a result of losing positioning or the ceasing of an attacking action
...usually it's due to the fact that either neutral or a clear offensive/defensive position (specifically pressing advantage/disadvantage) hasn't been established or has just been lost so the two-four players are fighting for it again
Generally scrambles can happen to anyone, but the best players tend to either perform well in them or prevent them from happening altogether through "solid" neutral
It's usually split second occurrences that can either put you in an extremely (dis)advantageous position as a result or have something even stranger happen"
"Oh. A really short answer is that scrambles basically occur when no one has established neutral yet. It's kind of a bad term but if you're not aware of what position you're in in neutral and it hasn't been established (offense/defense), weird **** begins to happen
So, in that phase, whether neutral hasn't been established or has been lost as a result of losing positioning or the ceasing of an attacking action
...usually it's due to the fact that either neutral or a clear offensive/defensive position (specifically pressing advantage/disadvantage) hasn't been established or has just been lost so the two-four players are fighting for it again
Generally scrambles can happen to anyone, but the best players tend to either perform well in them or prevent them from happening altogether through "solid" neutral
It's usually split second occurrences that can either put you in an extremely (dis)advantageous position as a result or have something even stranger happen"
On 0% shield break.
On Ganon and Falcon ledge guard.
@Zapp Branniglenn posts:
"Testing the merits of purposely getting grabbed by Falcon and Ganon Up B for a stage tech then double jump FAir. It's 100% consistent. Just grab the ledge early so I-frames run out and they can't avoid running into Bowser. Get the stage tech (it's easy and possible next to a stage's wall only because their Up B launch has no hitlag), and double jump into FAir for the kill.
If you miss the stage tech and get launched out there, it won't kill Bowser unless he has around 120% damage. Past that, double jump and Fortress won't reach the ledge. You also have to eat 13% damage from Ganon and 17% from Captain Falcon, but I'd say it's worth it for the guaranteed kill."
"Testing the merits of purposely getting grabbed by Falcon and Ganon Up B for a stage tech then double jump FAir. It's 100% consistent. Just grab the ledge early so I-frames run out and they can't avoid running into Bowser. Get the stage tech (it's easy and possible next to a stage's wall only because their Up B launch has no hitlag), and double jump into FAir for the kill.
If you miss the stage tech and get launched out there, it won't kill Bowser unless he has around 120% damage. Past that, double jump and Fortress won't reach the ledge. You also have to eat 13% damage from Ganon and 17% from Captain Falcon, but I'd say it's worth it for the guaranteed kill."
On ADC as a landing option from up high
On Spacing Angled F-Tilt vs Shield
Tilt Stick and Controller Grip Notes
What Bowser can do w/ tilt stick.
Bowser gains:
- Instant UTilt while crawling or walking without risk of USmash.
- SH rising UAir without risk of USmash.
- Instant DTilt while walking.
- Down + diagonal tilt stick for easy jab cancel
- No aerial momentum bleed; easier to maneuver NAir w/ aerial diagonal tilt stick
- w/ Claw Grip, easier to pull off difficult combos, like the reverse FAir -> BAir follow-up.
Resouces
@Big Sean Compiled UThrow -> Reverse FAir -> BAir Spreadsheet
@KingKong_ad Updated UThrow Kill Confirm Spreadsheet
Older, but still useful, Uthrow Kill Confirm Spreadsheet by 1PokeMaster
Tough Guy Spreadsheet
Public Bowser Discord Event Calendar
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