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The bonds of Mother and Child are strong, Rosalina and Luma to return!

NeonNote

Smash Apprentice
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82
I'm hoping she falls under the category of character who is not very good to start, but gets buffed like hell such as Marth who was nerfed from top tier status from Brawl, but restored back up through patches. Also they better fix her shoes with the crap they've done to her so far.
 

Tizio Random

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So, while Twitter is going crazy for training mode combos and it's a mess, I'm still here waiting for Rosa footage. At least, I've received much feedaback and played all the other characters I'm interested in but not the character I need the most. Still, she's apparently still amazing and Dabuz is confirming it:


Also nair > upair is probably a kill confirm.

EDIT: Oh, and detethered play will be huge, so get used to that.
 
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ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
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Jan 26, 2008
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I wouldn't expect Rosalina footage anytime soon until Dabuz starts making his own footage. She's not terribly popular. Also, seeing him mention K. Rool reminded me. Since he has super armor on his belly attacks, but he can only armor 3 hits before it breaks and stuns him unless he stops using his belly for a while, would Star Bits be useful to stuff the hell out of said belly attacks?

Also glad he thinks Richter is looking good, I wanted to try him and Simon out.
 
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Iron Kraken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
381
Is there even an active Rosalina discord? She must be one of the least popular characters going into Ultimate, very little discussion about her anywhere.

This thread has not even brought up the fact that Luma now automatically faces the nearest opponent and that Luma has increased knockback resistence when de-tethered. These things are a big deal.

If you follow Dabuz and falln on Twitter, you'll see that they've changed course from thinking "Jab and up-air nerfed - abandon ship!" to "Oh wow, she's actually still going to be pretty damn good."

And it's not just that she should be good, but de-tethered play being truly viable should make her a lot more fun to play.

Too bad there's not more discussion about her.
 

Tizio Random

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Is there even an active Rosalina discord? She must be one of the least popular characters going into Ultimate, very little discussion about her anywhere.

This thread has not even brought up the fact that Luma now automatically faces the nearest opponent and that Luma has increased knockback resistence when de-tethered. These things are a big deal.

If you follow Dabuz and falln on Twitter, you'll see that they've changed course from thinking "Jab and up-air nerfed - abandon ship!" to "Oh wow, she's actually still going to be pretty damn good."

And it's not just that she should be good, but de-tethered play being truly viable should make her a lot more fun to play.

Too bad there's not more discussion about her.
There a very active Rosa discord server, actually! And it has a lot of discussion going on, anyone that wants the link just DM me!
And btw, going by messages, this is actually a very active board on Ultimate without considering obviously the newcomers.
 

MezzoMe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
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Is there even an active Rosalina discord? She must be one of the least popular characters going into Ultimate, very little discussion about her anywhere.

This thread has not even brought up the fact that Luma now automatically faces the nearest opponent and that Luma has increased knockback resistence when de-tethered. These things are a big deal.

If you follow Dabuz and falln on Twitter, you'll see that they've changed course from thinking "Jab and up-air nerfed - abandon ship!" to "Oh wow, she's actually still going to be pretty damn good."

And it's not just that she should be good, but de-tethered play being truly viable should make her a lot more fun to play.

Too bad there's not more discussion about her.
We actually did briefly adress those changes but accidentally wrote that on the old social thread. I may accidentally have done the same other times because I remember seeing every change and then getting surprised by how some posts act like we were still in immediately-post-direct land
 
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Tizio Random

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We discovered a lot of things today on the Rosacord! Case in point: she's amazing. Really, high tier at worst.

And new technique discovered, Lunar Jumping. Luma does a tilt when Rosa performs a short hop aerial:
 

MezzoMe

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We discovered a lot of things today on the Rosacord! Case in point: she's amazing. Really, high tier at worst.

And new technique discovered, Lunar Jumping. Luma does a tilt when Rosa performs a short hop aerial:
It does require frame-perfect imput to perform, so I don't think it's gonna come up too frequently.

But I think it should be called Jupiter Jump, both to enhance the contrast, in virtue of it being the opposite of Lunar Landing, and having its own alliteration
 

Killo89

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It does require frame-perfect imput to perform, so I don't think it's gonna come up too frequently.

But I think it should be called Jupiter Jump, both to enhance the contrast, in virtue of it being the opposite of Lunar Landing, and having its own alliteration
Jupiter Jump rolls off the tongue perfectly, love it.
 

ChikoLad

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Jan 11, 2014
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Is there an objective list of every known change (positive or negative) and new/old tech that Rosalina has in this game, that has been discovered so far?

All I can find is random information scattered here and there, some of it with no proof to support.
 

MezzoMe

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Is there an objective list of every known change (positive or negative) and new/old tech that Rosalina has in this game, that has been discovered so far?

All I can find is random information scattered here and there, some of it with no proof to support.
Tizio Random Tizio Random has been collecting all new information, confirmed and not, here.
 

TheBeardedPunisher

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Wow, we're already less than a week away from the release of Never Ask Me For Anything Ever Again: The Video Game. What even is time anymore? Honestly at this point, there isn't really anything else I could want out of this game. I just wanted all veterans to return and every newcomer from here on out is basically gravy to me. I still can't stop laughing at the Piranha Plant reveal. I love it. My only real complaint is that the ordering in the roster looks like this:
:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultluigi::ultness::ultfalcon::ultjigglypuff::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultbowser::ulticeclimbers::ultsheik::ultzelda::ultdoc::ultpichu::ultfalco::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultyounglink::ultganondorf::ultmewtwo::ultroy::ultchrom::ultgnw::ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultzss::ultwario::ultsnake::ultike::ultpokemontrainer::ultdiddy::ultlucas::ultsonic::ultkingdedede::ultolimar::ultlucario::ultrob::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultvillager::ultmegaman::ultwiifittrainer::ultrosalina::ultlittlemac::ultgreninja::ultmiifighters::ultpalutena::ultpacman::ultrobin::ultshulk::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultryu::ultken::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultinkling::ultridley::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultincineroar:
when it should look like this:
:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultluigi::ultness::ultfalcon::ultjigglypuff::ultpeach::ultbowser::ulticeclimbers::ultsheik::ultzelda::ultdoc::ultpichu::ultfalco::ultmarth::ultyounglink::ultganondorf::ultmewtwo::ultroy::ultgnw::ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultzss::ultwario::ultsnake::ultike::ultpokemontrainer::ultdiddy::ultlucas::ultsonic::ultkingdedede::ultolimar::ultlucario::ultrob::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultvillager::ultmegaman::ultwiifittrainer::ultrosalina::ultlittlemac::ultgreninja::ultmiifighters::ultpalutena::ultdarkpit::ultpacman::ultlucina::ultrobin::ultshulk::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultryu::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultinkling::ultdaisy::ultridley::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultchrom::ultdarksamus::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultken::ultincineroar:
But that's just me being picky with specific number orders. My only other hope is that Squirtle and Ivysaur get their own individual amiibo.

I don't even mind the changes with some characters all that much. There will always be new ways to make these characters exciting and fun to play as, as well as competitive. So I believe Rosalina will have ample opportunity to shine in Ultimate's meta. Besides, I will always go by my motto: Keep calm and love Rosalina. So now that everyone is here, I better get practicing.
 

washyrose670

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
Messages
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But I think it should be called Jupiter Jump, both to enhance the contrast, in virtue of it being the opposite of Lunar Landing, and having its own alliteration
Other candidates:
Solar Soar
Lunar Leap
Lunar Launch

But I prefer Star Hopping.
 

DblCrest

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I ran into a really good Rosalina player called 'Gemini' while playing online. Are they active here or in the discord group?
 
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ChikoLad

Purple Boi
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Jan 11, 2014
Messages
23,084
I just unlocked Rosalina. I've been playing World of Light almost exclusively so I unlocked her there and now I have her everywhere.

I'm not gonna toy around with her in a serious sense until after I complete World of Light, but as far as that mode is concerned, she's one of the OP characters for it. Mainly because I have an OP Spirit set that complements her and some other characters really well. I will probably play the remainder of the mode as her, most of it anyway. Her range and the fact you have Luma means you can beat a lot of challenges real safe, in combination with the Adventure Skills and the right Support Spirits.

In case any of you are looking to get her ASAP in World of Light, I'll share where she is here, though I can't do so without spoiling a "plot twist" (using that loosely since there ain't much of a plot to this mode, though it still is a spoiler).

Beating Galeem is only the halfway point or so of the game. After you beat Galeem, a new World opens up, which I assume is called World of Darkness. Rosalina is in there, so don't worry about if you missed her or not before fighting Galeem, she simply can't be found before beating Galeem. No, she's not even in the space area right beside Galeem, that's Falco. You'll only have about half of the roster before beating Galeem, assuming you found everyone in the World of Light.

You start off in the middle of the World of Darkness, on a platform with three bridges coming out of it. Each bridge leads to an area with one or two fighters, a fight with a Crazy Hand, and beyond that, a large sub area you have to clear.

Rosalina can potentially be your first recruit from the World of Darkness. Take the bridge to the north, and keep progressing along that path. You'll fight a Crazy Hand along the way, and very soon after, will arrive at a cyberspace looking area with four branching paths blocked by Spirit battles and the path beyond being obscured by fog. Defeat the the second spirit from the left. A path will open up where IIRC you fight one or two more Spirits. And at the end of that path you'll find Rosalina. Beat her and she's yours.

I actually didn't get her until way late though. Didn't have a clue where she was so I ended up doing the entire east and west sub areas before I went north.
 
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MarioMeteor

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They did a pretty good job with Rosalina I have to say. They kept her strengths intact but nerfed all of the stupid Luma jank.
 

Treevurr

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I've mained Rosa since day 1 of Smash 4, and despite the smol nerfs, I'm still loving her in this game. Most of her strengths were kept intact, and so far, the only noticeable nerfs in comp matches have been 1) her (or rather, Luma's) Jab range, 2) Luma itself being easier to knock off the stage, and 3) Luma going into a panic mode while Rosa is in hitstun.

1. Old habits die hard, so it's still been a process to get used to Jab's shorter reach this time around. It's no longer the amazing spacing tool that it used to be, but it's still solid damage and it gets the job done. It doesn't ruin her playstyle or anything, but definitely going to be an adjustment for older Rosa mains.

2. Luma is so easy to kill now. She struggles hard against characters that can knock him around easily (and there are many), and eventually off the stage.

3. This change (imo) makes her more fair to fight against, even if it was nice to have such a broken mechanic before. :) Now Luma can no longer interrupt the opponent's attacks the way it used to, so this change forces Rosa players to no longer rely on this.

As for buffs, I love love looove the new Nair. I love how fast it is, that it covers all sides, and is overall fantastic for her neutral game. Big improvement imo. Luma's feels shorter ranged, but I think Rosa's change makes up for it.

The rest of her moveset feels the same, which is very good. Nerfed airdodges make her UAir even more dangerous, in particular. Luma's desynched attacks also feel like they have more knockback (and damage?) too, as I've landed a solid number of early KO's off a desynched FSmash read.

Overall I'm still loving her, and she feels like a much more "fair" pick in Ultimate. :ultrosalina:
 

NeonNote

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 14, 2018
Messages
82
What I don't understand is why you can't move luma forward when detethered? I know they want you to utilize detethered mode more in this game, but it's even worse than before because luma is so much harder to space properly.
 
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QNando

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A lot of people don't seem to realize Luma always panicked when Rosalina was in hitstun, the only change is that the animation is just flashier/more noticeable. There's even a tip for it in Smash 4 lol.


Anyways, playing with Luma desynced definitely feels better, I feel like I can pass people between them easier, even if it's for a brief moment, and falling rapid jab feels like a fun edgeguard haha. In Smash 4 I found myself separating Luma while having him still tethered, but here I find myself keeping him close by while detethered.
 
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ChikoLad

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Jan 11, 2014
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Cool little thing I noticed - Rosalina's normal jump isn't a smooth jump, she actually teleports from ground to around the full height of the jump. Makes landing U-airs easier.

EDIT: Took some frame by frame GIFs to compare with Smash Wii U.

It's not a teleport straight from ground to full height but she noticeably blinks up during a couple of frames. I recommend right clicking and selecting "Open Image in New Tab" to make sure you see from the start.




EDIT2: OK I'm dumb, this is actually a seemingly universal change, though the extent of it varies by character. Floaty characters have the most noticeable case of it, with Luigi probably being the most extreme.

Weird how I didn't notice before, but I guess this is how they make the pace of the game a bit faster in the air. It's still helpful to keep in mind as it means a lot of characters should be starting aerials later in their jump as opposed to earlier like in Wii U/3DS.
 
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ChikoLad

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I feel like Rosalina is mid-tier in this game. De-synced Luma is really a lot better now but the problem is her fundamentals are worse when tethered or solo. Also her dash attack is broken, literally. Sometimes the second hit of it just whiffs for no reason and you get punished by a F-air (which can be lethal against some characters like Chrom), if it didn't it would be a really solid move. Also her grab is absolutely awful now and it was never great before. She gets pushed out of range so easily.

It feels like they only half finished her. They reduced her power but forgot to compensate for it by giving her good range (F-air is PITIFUL now like they have to be halfway up her skirt for it to hit).

U-airs are easier to land now and can still KO, but I'm struggling to get good combos and strings with her due to her deceptively short range on some of her moves. Same with Luma.

Also, I get why they removed the steps from Luma's jab (even though I think it was unwarranted) and weakened it's knockback, but can they at least make it so that Luma sits a couple of more inches away from Rosalina when tethered? He's too close to her, making jabs much harder to connect with, which is dumb because every other character basically gets them for free. Again, would be really solid if not for the deceptively bad range.
 
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MezzoMe

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^Fair didn't have that big of a hitbox in the first place. Also, it has half its start-up and autocancels on SH.

Also I wouldn't rely on Uair to juggle. Nair does the same thing and can hit the top BF platform from a SH, on top of having easier follow-ups, even if none are actually true. It also avoids staling Uair; since there's already a lack of moves to use in neutral, staling what takes the stock after winning it isn't exactly sound
 

ChikoLad

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Yeah I dunno I'm not sure Rosalina is very viable this time.

I think my main issue with her aside from her straight up feeling unfinished with some of her hitboxes is that she is just far, far too slow. I don't know why they nerfed some her frame data, they should have done the opposite. Everyone else has gotten so much faster to the point I feel like a Brawl character fighting a bunch of Melee characters.

Tournaments are going to heavily feature characters like Chrom, Inkling, Pikachu, Pichu, and Meta Knight, and these are all characters that run circles around her. Even if a Rosalina player gets to the higher ranks in a tournament, she's gonna get bodied by all of the hard-hitting speedsters in the top brackets.

It's great that detethered Luma is better but that doesn't help her against speedsters since they can slip by easily.
 
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PzaInACup

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Aug 19, 2015
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I've been playing rosalina and at times it definitely feels frustrating in a mid tier kinda way... i honestly think her spacing tools are pretty good, like all her moves have utility, plus her recovery and edgeguarding are very good as well (not even talking about luma setups, just her offstage aerial game), but... ultimately unless kill confirm BnBs are found shes gonna struggle against the better characters imo.

So far in grinding matches with her online and against other competitive playing friends i've found my kill options to be either hit the edgeguard, find a smash attack out of neutral, or hit an upair at 140ish. I can get a stray back air against a roy at 151 and still not kill, then die to his f-tilt at 90. Still shes a (lunar) blast to play, and i definitely think theres a lot to learn, so i'm gonna try and stick with her.

Have any of yall been using the her reverse aerial rush bair? I'm not so good at doing it but think its a really good option, along with dash dance dtilt running utilt and nair she can definitely hold her own in neutral, albeit shes a bit slow and combo foddery
 
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NeonNote

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 14, 2018
Messages
82
Yeah I dunno I'm not sure Rosalina is very viable this time.

I think my main issue with her aside from her straight up feeling unfinished with some of her hitboxes is that she is just far, far too slow. I don't know why they nerfed some her frame data, they should have done the opposite. Everyone else has gotten so much faster to the point I feel like a Brawl character fighting a bunch of Melee characters.

Tournaments are going to heavily feature characters like Chrom, Inkling, Pikachu, Pichu, and Meta Knight, and these are all characters that run circles around her. Even if a Rosalina player gets to the higher ranks in a tournament, she's gonna get bodied by all of the hard-hitting speedsters in the top brackets.

It's great that detethered Luma is better but that doesn't help her against speedsters since they can slip by easily.
I'd wager detethered luma is even worse. Garbage range on his attacks now and moving forward one centimeter per attack is pure crap.
 
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ChikoLad

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I just feel like Rosalina wasn't play tested very thoroughly in this game. This was something I feared with Ultimate - with a character roster so large it was bound to have some characters who just weren't given as much attention. Rosalina is one of those characters that's just sort of there in this game, in all respects, but when it comes to competitive gameplay especially.

Aside from her hitboxes feeling inaccurate to her animations (i.e deceptively short or thin), there's a lot of questionable design decisions all around.

For one, I think they didn't realise how much the global mechanical changes hurt Rosalina at base. Like, they could have ported Wii U Rosalina one-to-one with the only changes being the global ones, and she would already have been more tamed. While directional air dodges are good for her, the nerf to shields and the nerf to consecutive dodging hurt her considerably. Especially the latter, which I feel hurts her more than any other character. Rosalina needs to use rolls to adjust her position without moving Luma when detethered, but doing so now comes at the cost of potentially sacrificing your intangibility frames if the enemy breaks through. That's a huge nerf to how her basic playstyle works already.

But they for some reason thought it would be a good idea to give her tons of other unnecessary nerfs. The most annoying one to me is that Luma now returns to Rosalina really slowly when she calls him back from a detethered state when he's at low HP. This is totally unnecessary, because the whole point of this character is that Rosalina is better when Luma is around, and is more vulnerable when he's been KO'd. Adding this in between state where Luma loses a great deal of effectiveness on his own when he's at low HP is just adding insult to injury. It's not the worst change she got, but it's the most annoying one because it's something literally nobody asked for nor was it at all warranted. What's more, there is a loading screen tip about it, so they are likely never going to relapse on it.

I also feel a change like this at least warranted giving us a UI element that displays Luma's HP at all times, since other characters like Robin got something similar, but we didn't even get that. This was forgivable in Smash Wii U/3DS since they only started toying around with new UI elements but there is no excuse here since many other characters introduced in that game got this feature in Ultimate. For the record, Ice Climbers should have it too for the secondary Ice Climber.

Nerfing Luma's frame data was completely unnecessary since everyone else has gotten faster, he's already less competitive with other characters because of that. If anything Rosalina deserved to be made faster while Luma stays the same so she could still have a competitive neutral game against even the fastest characters. Also her new N-air is good but Luma needs to hit low during it, for some reason he hits around Rosalina's waist when he should cover her feet. The old Luma N-air hit low and made MUs against short characters more manageable but here, Rosalina struggles severely against shorter characters especially the really nimble ones. Meta Knight in particular is a disgustingly bad MU for her in this game, she legitimately can't do anything because of his size, speed, and range in combination, and Luma basically does not exist. I know some people thought that MU was really bad in Smash Wii U/3DS but the Ultimate version of this MU makes the old version look positive by comparison. At least she had a usable N-air with Luma against him there, and spammable rolls and air dodges. In Ultimate, it's dumb luck if she lands a hit on him and she'll spend the rest of the match being used and abused as Meta Knight's ping-pong ball until she's KO'd. It's seriously one of the most toxic MUs I've ever seen in a fighting game and emphasises everything wrong with this new iteration of the character in Smash.

And as has been said, Luma losing the steps in jab really hurts his versatility and our ability to finely position him. Taking it away when he's tethered is one thing, but he should absolutely be able to have those jab steps when detethered, there was nothing broken about that and was necessary for the move to work when detethered.

Beyond thinking about what tier she's at, I simply think she's less satisfying to play as in this game now. She still has her moments and there are some improvements like detethered Luma responding faster to movement commands and the fact he automatically faces the nearest opponent which is really useful in 1v1 since there's only one opponent. But overall they just really screwed her over.

I'm sorry if I sound so pessimistic but it's just a let down that she feels like such an afterthought. I'm not surprised, especially since we barely saw anything of her pre-release and they gave her such a pitiful showing in the World of Light opening (hell she only gets two spirit battles in World of Light IIRC besides her unlock fight and the placement of her unlock fight feels like an afterthought too), but I had some hope she would still have solid gameplay and would remain competitive. But it seems even that was overstepping.

The only real hope I would have left is that she ends up as this game's equivalent to Smash Wii U/3DS Marth (i.e character that was solid in previous games but feels broken and an afterthought in the new one, but gets fixed through patches) but due to the nature of Elite Smash which is what they are using for game balance and the fact this game apparently had community members involved in balancing, I'm not seeing that as likely. This game just doesn't care for tricky characters like Rosalina and more for the rushdown, unga-bunga. Rosalina could do rushdown better in the last game which is just bizarre considering how almost everyone else turn out.

Anyway thanks for coming to my TED Talk, better get out before someone gets mad at me wanting good things for a character I like again.
 
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