The bonds of Mother and Child are strong, Rosalina and Luma to return!

MezzoMe

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The only real hope I would have left is that she ends up as this game's equivalent to Smash Wii U/3DS Marth (i.e character that was solid in previous games but feels broken and an afterthought in the new one, but gets fixed through patches)
Not happening. The character is barely rapresented both in tournaments and online, the same lack of exposure that let her escape Sm4sh patches. And that does mean that the community will be the only pushing force behind this character and in particular, its neutral. It's not like I believe that JJ DA>N/Dair is bad or something, but a single action and whatever comes diramating from it aren't exactly on top of my favourite playstyles
 

NeonNote

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I just feel like Rosalina wasn't play tested very thoroughly in this game. This was something I feared with Ultimate - with a character roster so large it was bound to have some characters who just weren't given as much attention. Rosalina is one of those characters that's just sort of there in this game, in all respects, but when it comes to competitive gameplay especially.

Aside from her hitboxes feeling inaccurate to her animations (i.e deceptively short or thin), there's a lot of questionable design decisions all around.

For one, I think they didn't realise how much the global mechanical changes hurt Rosalina at base. Like, they could have ported Wii U Rosalina one-to-one with the only changes being the global ones, and she would already have been more tamed. While directional air dodges are good for her, the nerf to shields and the nerf to consecutive dodging hurt her considerably. Especially the latter, which I feel hurts her more than any other character. Rosalina needs to use rolls to adjust her position without moving Luma when detethered, but doing so now comes at the cost of potentially sacrificing your intangibility frames if the enemy breaks through. That's a huge nerf to how her basic playstyle works already.

But they for some reason thought it would be a good idea to give her tons of other unnecessary nerfs. The most annoying one to me is that Luma now returns to Rosalina really slowly when she calls him back from a detethered state when he's at low HP. This is totally unnecessary, because the whole point of this character is that Rosalina is better when Luma is around, and is more vulnerable when he's been KO'd. Adding this in between state where Luma loses a great deal of effectiveness on his own when he's at low HP is just adding insult to injury. It's not the worst change she got, but it's the most annoying one because it's something literally nobody asked for nor was it at all warranted. What's more, there is a loading screen tip about it, so they are likely never going to relapse on it.

I also feel a change like this at least warranted giving us a UI element that displays Luma's HP at all times, since other characters like Robin got something similar, but we didn't even get that. This was forgivable in Smash Wii U/3DS since they only started toying around with new UI elements but there is no excuse here since many other characters introduced in that game got this feature in Ultimate. For the record, Ice Climbers should have it too for the secondary Ice Climber.

Nerfing Luma's frame data was completely unnecessary since everyone else has gotten faster, he's already less competitive with other characters because of that. If anything Rosalina deserved to be made faster while Luma stays the same so she could still have a competitive neutral game against even the fastest characters. Also her new N-air is good but Luma needs to hit low during it, for some reason he hits around Rosalina's waist when he should cover her feet. The old Luma N-air hit low and made MUs against short characters more manageable but here, Rosalina struggles severely against shorter characters especially the really nimble ones. Meta Knight in particular is a disgustingly bad MU for her in this game, she legitimately can't do anything because of his size, speed, and range in combination, and Luma basically does not exist. I know some people thought that MU was really bad in Smash Wii U/3DS but the Ultimate version of this MU makes the old version look positive by comparison. At least she had a usable N-air with Luma against him there, and spammable rolls and air dodges. In Ultimate, it's dumb luck if she lands a hit on him and she'll spend the rest of the match being used and abused as Meta Knight's ping-pong ball until she's KO'd. It's seriously one of the most toxic MUs I've ever seen in a fighting game and emphasises everything wrong with this new iteration of the character in Smash.

And as has been said, Luma losing the steps in jab really hurts his versatility and our ability to finely position him. Taking it away when he's tethered is one thing, but he should absolutely be able to have those jab steps when detethered, there was nothing broken about that and was necessary for the move to work when detethered.

Beyond thinking about what tier she's at, I simply think she's less satisfying to play as in this game now. She still has her moments and there are some improvements like detethered Luma responding faster to movement commands and the fact he automatically faces the nearest opponent which is really useful in 1v1 since there's only one opponent. But overall they just really screwed her over.

I'm sorry if I sound so pessimistic but it's just a let down that she feels like such an afterthought. I'm not surprised, especially since we barely saw anything of her pre-release and they gave her such a pitiful showing in the World of Light opening (hell she only gets two spirit battles in World of Light IIRC besides her unlock fight and the placement of her unlock fight feels like an afterthought too), but I had some hope she would still have solid gameplay and would remain competitive. But it seems even that was overstepping.

The only real hope I would have left is that she ends up as this game's equivalent to Smash Wii U/3DS Marth (i.e character that was solid in previous games but feels broken and an afterthought in the new one, but gets fixed through patches) but due to the nature of Elite Smash which is what they are using for game balance and the fact this game apparently had community members involved in balancing, I'm not seeing that as likely. This game just doesn't care for tricky characters like Rosalina and more for the rushdown, unga-bunga. Rosalina could do rushdown better in the last game which is just bizarre considering how almost everyone else turn out.

Anyway thanks for coming to my TED Talk, better get out before someone gets mad at me wanting good things for a character I like again.
You nailed everything I was thinking about her. Especially the bit about giving her the Marth treatment. I would be overjoyed if she would at least receive a few buffs here and there. Unfortunately she will be virtually nonexistent in the tournament scene considering she wasn't super prevalent there in 4 despite being one of the best characters. I hope her problems are made aparent to the rest of the community somehow.
 

Cosmic77

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I don't know how she'll move forward seeing how she's rarely used, but I'm remaining optimistic for Rosa. I doubt they'd nerf her any more than they already have, and there's plenty of time for buffs.

Let a few more months go by before assuming the worst.
 

NeonNote

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Another nerf found. Gravitational pull has less active frames at the end of the move. Can't throw it out as prematurely as before now. Also would it kill them to fix down air so the ring actually has a freaking hitbox while it is still out?
 
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PzaInACup

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I can definitely see how coming from smash 4 it feels like shes a ruined character, just because detether play seems to be completely ass if your opponent knows what theyre doing, and that was a huge part of her game in smash 4. It does kinda feel like shes a bit unfinished, like they applied nerfs at the start of developing ulti and then just never re-upped on their design of her, but i'm having success and fun with her dashdance, edgeguarding, and juggle game at ~1,500,000 level. downtilt, running stop utilt when luma's alive, downsmash reads, and fair/bair off stage are all getting me a good amount of mileage. She's a weirdly honest character now
 

ChikoLad

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OK.

Now I'm allowed to say what I want about the character. :p


Never mind I'm back at 1,389,225. I only won one match as her in Elite Smash. I've just been getting matches with lag or getting screwed over by horrible MUs and all the other BS Rosalina has now.
 
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QNando

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Hmmm, I agree Rosalina is no longer one of the best, but she doesn't feel that ruined to me. I do find myself struggling way more with matchups, but I feel like it's not disgracefully bad. I was a decent Rosalina player in Smash 4, but I feel like that was because it was easy to just throw out hitboxes all the time and then run away by dodging. Also I feel like a lot of Rosalina was her up air, like I know it's good but it felt like a lot.

In Smash 4, Luma was just thought of as a meat shield to tank hits for Rosalina, or as an extension of Rosalina's hitboxes there to just give her more range. Desynced play is what makes her unique, otherwise she kinda becomes like Ice Climbers or something, yet it was seen as pretty unviable, so I like what they're trying to do with her by making desynced play sound better. The jab movement nerf sounded unforgivable, but I haven't really found a need for it now since Luma feels like he moves more swiftly (besides his nerfed frame data).

Luma returning to Rosalina slower when at low HP is actually not okay though, like it's kinda cute but it is annoying that Rosalina needs to run to him too to avoid him getting destroyed on his way back. I'm also not okay with Gravitational Pull now, it feels super risky since everyone can just run up and attack her for using it. Projectile heavy characters have unfortunatley been a problem for me because of this, like it's actually very pitiful. I went against a villager and he won by using only FAir and SideB. So I guess that shows that my opinion is not very credible haha, but I still think people may be a tad too negative about how she is now. I mean, the worst part about playing Rosalina & Luma in Smash 4 was that people would just SD and/or would never rematch me, but that hasn't been so much of a problem in Smash Ultimate so far, so that's a pretty awesome buff imo
 

ChikoLad

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I'm now at 1,275,184 GSP. I have lost about ten matches in a row.

Rosalina is no longer my highest GSP character, it is once again displaying Samus, a character whom I have only played once across all of the game, and won one lucky match with in Quickplay.

This ain't it chief.

Also I'm sick of people saying Rosalina was problematic in Wii U. She wasn't. She was falling off due to lack of usage and she never even reached her full potential. Detethered play was perfectly viable in Wii U, especially since Rosalina wasn't penalised for dodging to reposition herself relative to Luma.

The only reason Rosalina was ever "problematic" in Wii U was because for some confounded reason, people fail to register the fact that yes, Luma is a thing that can indeed throw a punch. Even here in Ultimate, I'm still seeing people letting Luma live all of the time when Rosalina is off stage, and I punish them for it. That's not broken. If you were fighting in doubles, the same thing would happen if you left one of your enemies unchecked. Luma is simply a miniature doubles partner, that's it.

Rosalina was never a dishonest character, if you got hit by Luma you deserved it. If anything, how jank she is in Ultimate is just dishonest to the players who are trying to out in work with her.
 

QNando

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My highest GSP character is Zelda, at 1,483,492. My Rosalina has been stuck around 1,300,000-1,400,000, she's certainly having a hard time haha. Rosalina was certainly not problematic in Smash 4, but I could understand people's frustrations with her. A lot of the people you'd see play her did so in one way, which was not a fun way for a lot of people to play against or for some people to watch. I've heard people say that you're a noob and don't know what you're doing if you start the match with a Luma Shot. Desynced play should have been seen as a good way to rack up damage and combo between Rosalina and Luma, but it wasn't. The general idea was unfortunately that Luma was not his own being, he was just there to tank hits and give Rosa range. Now that he deals more damage and takes less knockback when desynced, he is more of his own being that can protect Rosalina without always being tied to her.

On an unrelated note, is there a Rosalina & Luma discord out there? I'd like to play with some of you all to see how we all approach the new Rosalina.
 

ChikoLad

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My highest GSP character is Zelda, at 1,483,492. My Rosalina has been stuck around 1,300,000-1,400,000, she's certainly having a hard time haha. Rosalina was certainly not problematic in Smash 4, but I could understand people's frustrations with her. A lot of the people you'd see play her did so in one way, which was not a fun way for a lot of people to play against or for some people to watch. I've heard people say that you're a noob and don't know what you're doing if you start the match with a Luma Shot. Desynced play should have been seen as a good way to rack up damage and combo between Rosalina and Luma, but it wasn't. The general idea was unfortunately that Luma was not his own being, he was just there to tank hits and give Rosa range. Now that he deals more damage and takes less knockback when desynced, he is more of his own being that can protect Rosalina without always being tied to her.

On an unrelated note, is there a Rosalina & Luma discord out there? I'd like to play with some of you all to see how we all approach the new Rosalina.
At the start of the match, yeah, but detethered play in Wii U worked when Rosalina had the advantage. You don't use it much in neutral because it's too easy for people to swat him away, but if you claim the advantage, you can start setting up Luma for combos or a KO, not to mention edge guarding.

Here it's bad though, the increased knockback resistance means nothing when everyone is faster and stronger anyway, and when Luma himself is slower and less responsive in certain situations. And the better damage means nothing when he can't hit anything. People can just jump over him half of the time any way now too because of his range nerfs, at least in Wii U a good Up Tilt or Up Air could wall them off since they had good range there.

She's not a tricky character anymore, just a straight up underwhelming one. I can't reliably KO Kirby at 140%, but an uncharged Chrom F-Smash KOs me at 40%. She's bad.
 

NeonNote

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I'm now at 1,275,184 GSP. I have lost about ten matches in a row.

Rosalina is no longer my highest GSP character, it is once again displaying Samus, a character whom I have only played once across all of the game, and won one lucky match with in Quickplay.

This ain't it chief.

Also I'm sick of people saying Rosalina was problematic in Wii U. She wasn't. She was falling off due to lack of usage and she never even reached her full potential. Detethered play was perfectly viable in Wii U, especially since Rosalina wasn't penalised for dodging to reposition herself relative to Luma.

The only reason Rosalina was ever "problematic" in Wii U was because for some confounded reason, people fail to register the fact that yes, Luma is a thing that can indeed throw a punch. Even here in Ultimate, I'm still seeing people letting Luma live all of the time when Rosalina is off stage, and I punish them for it. That's not broken. If you were fighting in doubles, the same thing would happen if you left one of your enemies unchecked. Luma is simply a miniature doubles partner, that's it.

Rosalina was never a dishonest character, if you got hit by Luma you deserved it. If anything, how jank she is in Ultimate is just dishonest to the players who are trying to out in work with her.
Yup. She was tough, but had very clear weaknesses. They could have toned down some of her more oppressive features such as insanely high base knockback on luma, but instead they just threw a bunch in the nerf box without any real thought.
 

ChikoLad

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To make it clear I'm not really asking for the old Rosalina back, at least not fully. At minimum, just fix her hitboxes and make her moves a little faster and then she would become a usable mid-tier that at least does what she does with some consistency.

If they really want to make her legit satisfying to play as again though, I think they could still do so while making her different from her Smash Wii U iteration, working with what the have. For example, give her a hitbox on landing for Launch Star. Make her fast fall better, which also emphasises her gravity powers. Make her back throw actually a viable KO move like Ness and Zelda. The only thing I really desperately want to see return from Smash Wii U is Luma's jab steps. Also space Luma's tethered position out a little further, he sticks a bit too close to Rosalina now which doesn't help the already nerfed range in some moves. Also just give her a combo game again, seriously matches feel excruciatingly slow with her now because she has no real combos.

A few little things like this would go a long way. She would feel different from the Wii U version, and she would still have some annoying stuff like the Gravitational Pull nerfs and the knockback nerfs and the dumb low HP Luma state, but at least we'd get other good things as a trade off.
 

EGsmash

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So anyone else notice how Luma doesn't advance forward when jabbing? That was a major spacing tool to set up a sneaky Fsmash on an unsuspecting opponent. Now, Luma stays practically up Rosa's skirt at all times when tethered. The 'official' reason was that now Rosa's shield covers Luma. That's nice and all, but have you gotten hit by a PK Thunder 2 when shielded? Yeah, the shield still doesn't protect Luma, and I suspect other big attacks still hit him through shield.

Echoing the sentiment that it feels like they built this crappy engine around tournament play, then only tuned about half of the more popular characters.

Edit: I see someone else did notice. nm then.
 
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ChikoLad

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Shield hasn't been changed for her since Smash Wii U in terms of its interaction with Luma, it works the same way. If Luma is inside Rosalina's shield, he gets protected, but some big attacks hit him regardless. This was also why shield tilting was actually useful for Rosalina.

Luma stays closer to Rosalina now in order to make him more protected, but like you said it doesn't work most of the time, especially since shield in general has been globally nerfed, which is bad for Rosalina as she really complemented Smash Wii U's shield mechanics. Like I keep saying, half of why Rosalina was strong in Smash Wii U was because that game's mechanics complemented her design. Most of Ultimate's global mechanics would have been bad for her even if they kept most of her properties the same, but by carelessly applying a bunch of nerfs and not play testing her hitboxes fully, she's left a sitting duck against many characters.
 

MezzoMe

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It's one of the rare instances when one pushes through his work after a 5 year hiatus

Also, Space Jump is back, the only difference I've noted is that Luma travels over 3 times faster, crossing half FD in 3 frames as opposed to 10
 
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I don't know if this has been said on here or not, but Rosalina was gonna be in Mario Odyssey with a different outfit according to this video:


RosaOdyssey.png


Truthfully, I don't know how to feel about Rosalina in such a different style, especially with the black earrings (kinda looks like a christian cross imo). It would've been interesting to see how she would actually look in 3D.
 
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ChikoLad

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Yeah I'm done with Rosalina in this game I think, at least as far as playing as her in any serious capacity. I've tried really hard to make her work but my GSP is back where it started and those absolutely horrible hitboxes keep messing me up.

I had a moment where I was facing a Lucina on a Battlefield stage and she made the foolish mistake of charging Shield Breaker coming down from the top while falling on a platform I was standing right below. I start charging Up Smash because Lucina was at high percent and as soon as she lands on the platform and is in cool down, I let the Up Smash go. Rosalina's head and the streak from it were CLEAN through her, and Luma hit her clean too. But no damage or knockback happened. It was a miss. I hit her clean and the game somehow thinks it's a miss.

I still won that match and I didn't get punished for that moment, but it was still frustrating to see and was a real "yeah I can't keep doing this" moment.

I also keep running into issues with Luma's detethered A.I where I'm trying to make him go one way and he goes the opposite or just stands still, and sometimes he keeps trying to stick to Rosalina (not like when tethered, he literally is inside of her model and gets stuck there).

I tried a few more matches but just keep either getting bodied by her toxic MUs or I do reasonably well the first half of the match only to get screwed over by hits not connecting even though the animation is saying they very clearly did and other buggy stuff, and that's not even getting into other stuff that's already been mentioned that are just straight intentional nerfs. Her kit lacks a lot of synergy now and almost everyone around her is just better than before. The game already doesn't favour floaty, light characters but she just feels broken and unintuitive on top of it.

Until she gets fixed (in terms of the bugs) and maybe gets a few buffs to help her square up against the better characters in this game, I don't think I can use her in any serious capacity. She is beyond frustratingly inconsistent and I really don't need that from my gaming sessions.

I've also been struggling to find characters that click for me in general so I think I'll just not play the game as much aside from maybe doing the odd Classic Mode Run or collecting Spirits.

Not trying to tell anyone not to use her, more power to you if you do, I just really needed to vent.
 

Killo89

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Hey lol I'm actually hearing about more and more about people raging against Luma. Again. After 4 years of Rosa.
Like it's a new thing. Like the AI controls Luma.

I find it absolutely ridiculous.

And Rosalina indeed has many weird interactions with her Smash attacks. Sometimes, Luma goes further than normal, you don't know why at all, and sometimes you can actually penetrate the enemy with Luma's punch and they won't even flinch. Same with Rosa's galaxy, I feel like her hitboxes are bugged at this point.
 

ChikoLad

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Hey lol I'm actually hearing about more and more about people raging against Luma. Again. After 4 years of Rosa.
Like it's a new thing. Like the AI controls Luma.

I find it absolutely ridiculous.

And Rosalina indeed has many weird interactions with her Smash attacks. Sometimes, Luma goes further than normal, you don't know why at all, and sometimes you can actually penetrate the enemy with Luma's punch and they won't even flinch. Same with Rosa's galaxy, I feel like her hitboxes are bugged at this point.
Yeah people are still not realising they can just punch Luma off the stage it's hilarious.

I also had some one SD on me again just because I was playing Rosalina. I beat him in a match in Quickplay and despite not asking for a rematch, we got matched up again and after I took the first stock he SD'd.
 

ChikoLad

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I've been taking a closer look at Rosalina's animations in Ultimate and I feel like they messed even that up with her in this game. Wonky dress physics that mess up photo opportunities, no more crazy face (it's only used for the dizzy animation but doesn't look nearly as good now), some weird facial animation choices like her grab whiff face, and they even rounded out her chin. I thought Smash was the one place we could avoid that outside of SEGA'S model but nope.

Just feeling really lukewarm on her in Ultimate overall, she feels like such an afterthought. I'd say this is her last Smash game.
 

MezzoMe

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^Ehm, physics aren't a part of animation(and technically neither are facial animations because of how they are made in games. Also although her animations didn't improve as much as other characters did, they still got some improvement and are still strong on their fundamentals, and that is excluding the best render in the series.

Speaking of animation, I got a request to adapt this design in 3D, and, well, I did
 

ChikoLad

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Both physics and facial animations are part of animation lol. Anything that is multiple frames strung together is animation. Physics in 3D animation is just there to add realism and leave less manual labour but it's still a part of animating.
 

MezzoMe

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That's quite a broad definition you've got there, but it remains jarring given that the process of making those three into animation have nearly anything to do with each other
 

NeonNote

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Luma.png


Luma now sweats and looks tired when his HP is low (although he looks like he's crying here). Only when standing still. New indicator to help keep an eye on his health.
 

Killo89

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I had hope for her face animations... Sakurai said something like "all characters are now more expressive", and Rosalina still only has a maximum of 2 faces you can actually notice: o-shaped mouth, and closed mouth. She sometimes smiles when UpAiring, but well, she just is... herself, I guess. Nothing out of the ordinary I'd say.

Wonky dress physics that mess up photo opportunities
I know you have strong opinions about a lot of stuff, but that is something I just have to disagree with. They aren't wonky at all. Her dress now reacts properly to surfaces (which is quite good), to her leg movements, her hair, although still clipping through her neck during Bair, is fully animated and flows more naturally to the wind, so does her dress, so... well, no. They're aren't wonky. They just changed, and change is something you seem to have a hard time adapting to.

Just feeling really lukewarm on her in Ultimate overall, she feels like such an afterthought. I'd say this is her last Smash game.
Then enjoy it, because it may indeed be the last time.

But still, I wouldn't say afterthought. She got many "mechanical" changes, or rather adaptations to her kit, and they weren't made randomly. Luma FS kills at the ledge so early, UpAir kills as soon as in Sm4sh, Fair is now actually usable, Starbits are now included into her special B-game...
I mean, Sm4sh Rosa had moves she'd basically never use. Fair was almost absent, and there are matches where... you wouldn't use Starbits at all, because Luma outranged everything already, with jabbing for instance.
Now, all her tilts deal more damage, she has new technique(s) which secure kills easily (Lunar Dash, up smash for some characters), she still can grab a character and Luma will way for the release to instantly kill them above 90%, which is crazy, because Rosa's grabs can't actually kill until very late.

She's also heavier, so dies less often, and Luma has more HP, and now reacts more quickly to her movement, and Luma deals more damage and can tank more damage when untethered, and Gravitational Pull has been changed to leave room for counterplay and yet still be the best projectile denier of the game, she's faster, she... I don't know, you seem to sleep on many changes that were made to her. They didn't just tweak her randomly. They made actual gameplay-changing modifications.

DAir is slower, yet Luma's angle is still absurd, so kills early. Still has a meteor effect.

Thing is, Rosalina got a tad better, and everyone her got a lot better, so relatively, she feels weaker. Yet you can still oppress heavies easily, fast characters are usually good against her, but Luma denies many of their moves, and, and...

When the time will come to establish her matchups, I'm pretty sure they won't differ a lot from Sm4sh. Characters she dominated, she still dominates them quite well. Characters she lost to got, overall, weaker (well, not MK lol), so she has higher chances of winning.

She isn't an afterthought. It's game balance, and game balance isn't about "better/worse". Sometimes, it's about changing a playstyle, and that's what they did. Or tried to do, if you prefer.
 

ChikoLad

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Rosalina did not get better in this game, anyone telling themselves that is actually blind lol. If it were a case of "she got slightly better, everyone else got tons better", she would still be a solid high tier at least. That's not what happened.

What I mean by her being an afterthought is mostly that she feels unfinished with a lot of moves having straight up buggy hitboxes (dunno what you're going on about with the new F-air being better, people fall out of it all of the time in Ultimate just like the first hit of dash attack for example), and the fact they nerfed her and made a bunch of silly changes that don't make sense, like they weren't actually thinking about what they were doing (hence the term, afterthought). Say what you want about Smash Wii U Rosalina but she was intuitive and her mechanical design made sense. That's not the case with Ultimate Rosalina. Lots of stuff doesn't mesh together. Like, they CLEARLY want us to use detethered Luma more. Alright, OK. He does more damage when detethered and takes less knockback, and automatically faces the nearest oppoent, OK, I like it, so far so good...

...oh but dethered Luma has buggy A.I now and he doesn't step during jabs so positioning Luma efficiently and accurately is impossible now, and the increased knockback is not very noticeable because Luma is overall just lighter now and everyone else is stronger and hits him off so easy. Oh, AND he has a low HP state where he returns reeeeeaaaallly slowly to Rosalina when she calls him back.

That's just the gist of it but yeah, dunno how anyone in their right mind could suggest Ultimate Rosalina is better than Wii U Rosalina. She may have had a few damage buffs here and there but it's nothing compared to the other changes that mess up how she plays. It's not just a matter of "adapting", the new version of the character just isn't intuitive and doesn't make sense. Like I would be fine with a detethered Luma playstyle being a bigger focus and they were going for that, but like I just explained, that doesn't work. There isn't a solid gameplan to adapt to, she's just this unsynergistic mess now.

And in other areas of the game like the animations and dress physics they didn't really think that through either (her dress physics ARE especially wonky lol, they spaz out half of the time). She barely has any Spirit Battles either. She's got like four and there are over 1,000 Spirits in the whole game. She really is "just there".

And please don't tell me to pretend to enjoy something I don't. I hate that mentality.

 
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QNando

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It's very unfortunate that Rosalina's boards seem so negative now. She was changed a lot, and for some people that may have ruined her, but for me she's 10x better and she now compliments how I like to play her. You may think she's worse, and some top players may even think she's worse, but there's no way anyone can state that as fact when the game hasn't even been (officially) out for a full month.

The jab no longer moving Luma isn't even a big deal, a desynced Luma dash attack does essentailly the same thing but quicker, which seems better for this game imo. Also Luma's desynced AI seems completely unchanged, he still targets this one spot a little bit away from the front of Rosalina, prioritizing height. Want Luma to jump? Jump. Want him to turn? He'll turn at pretty much the same time Rosalina does. He feels less like AI and more like I'm in two places at once. Nothing about desynced Luma feels buggy, in fact he's more responsive than ever. I found it incredibly easier to do the desynced Luma rapid jab when in Smash 4 it was most easily done after landing from up B or something. Also the fact that attacks (with the exception of Star Bits) no longer halt him in the air makes him way harder to hit when desynced since he's always moving, as opposed to Smash 4 where any attack he didn't land made him a target since he stayed completely still no matter where he was. With these new changes, there's no more stupid rules like don't start a match with Luma Shot, only use it for like these 2 specific setups, etc. Also, more desynced play means getting better at learning Rosalina herself, so losing Luma doesn't cripple her since if you've been playing desynced, you have experience with how to handle Rosalina when she's alone.

In terms of visuals, I admit she doesn't seem to have major improvements, but she's still as elegant as ever. I also feel like they color corrected her dress to be slightly more greenish, which matches her appearance in Mario Galaxy a lot better. The dress physics are fine, her crouch no longer looks oddly unnatural and looks more like it did in her original trailer, the little sparkles when she jumps and directional airdodges looks more celestial, Gravitational Pull now auto equipping and auto holding items is amazing (especially vs K. Rool and his crown), and Luma making a kinda happy sound when he lands Smash Attack and looking tired and returning slower when at low health makes him feel more like a living thing that Rosalina needs to protect, and not just the meat shield he was in Smash 4. Also the fact he returns slower can be used to you advantage, he'll likely be targeted, but he can still move as can Rosalina, so the opponent can be punished for trying to attack Luma.

Also fun fact: Gravitational Pull absorbs all of Olimar's Pikmin now (besides winged ofc), not just the purple ones. IDK if that will be patched out, but hey that's one more thing she has going for her.
 

ChikoLad

Purple Boi
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Messages
23,081
Nah, if we're talking about competitive viability, there is no debate. Rosalina is strictly way worse than before. She got a lot of targeted nerfs that outweigh the buffs, most of the new universal mechanics are actually quite bad for her, and as I've said countless times, she has buggy hitboxes that don't work all of the time as well, making her inconsistent. On top of that, many other characters got heavily targeted buffs, or benefit from the universal mechanics so much. And in particular, sword characters and Mewtwo, characters who were already a challenge for her, are SO much better than before, almost across the board.

If you are saying Rosalina in Ultimate is a better character in terms of competitive viability compared to Smash Wii U/3DS Rosalina, then I straight up think you are either an overly delusional fanboy of the character who has their heart set on believing she is top tier no matter what, or you just straight up aren't actually that interested in/knowledgeable of what made her so good before and aren't actually that into competitive Smash. I mean, half of the reason Rosalina was so good before was Smash Wii U/3DS's base mechanics. Stuff like spammable air dodges and the shield mechanics of Smash Wii U/3DS were things that benefited Rosalina greatly in particular compared to some other characters. Now it's the opposite, most of the base mechanics just don't mesh with her too well. If you kept Rosalina & Luma the same as they were in Smash Wii U/3DS, but only applied the new base mechanics and put her in this new environment with all of the other characters being as they are, she already wouldn't have been as good as she was before, though I think she still would have been high tier at least. That's definitely not what we got though.

Now as far as personal fun goes, that's all up to you. If you enjoy playing as her in Ultimate, I won't take that away from you. I personally have really been steered away from her. And I've tried REALLY hard to make her work. But I just can't. I can't confidently stick to a character that clearly has unfinished hitboxes and stuff.

That's as far as 1v1 goes though, as far as Spirits goes, she's my main there as she can be pretty OP with those especially since Luma is effected by them. And she's really fun in free for alls with items, because Gravitational Pull is stupidly busted in this game when it comes to item matches. But as far as competitive play is concerned, I have been really just not been enjoying having stuff whiff when it shouldn't, having Luma straight up not listen when dethethered or go completely the wrong direction, on top of a lot of annoying changes like the loss of Luma jab steps that, IMO, make her feel restricted and limited in what I could do in this game. It's not just "oh just adapt and you'll find her fun", nah, I adapted but still don't find her fun and the buggy elements make her inconsistent no matter how much you master her. Telling me to enjoy the character in that state is like telling me "Sonic '06 is a perfectly fun and polished game if you memorise all of the bugs and floor clips and just go out of your way to try not to instigate them".

TL;DR If you enjoy her I won't take that away from you, but as far as competitive viability is concerned, don't tell people she's better than Smash Wii U/3DS Rosalina. That would make you misinformed, or a liar.
 
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QNando

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"If you are saying Rosalina in Ultimate is a better character in terms of competitive viability compared to Smash Wii U/3DS Rosalina, then I straight up think you are either an overly delusional fanboy of the character who has their heart set on believing she is top tier no matter what, or you just straight up aren't actually that interested in/knowledgeable of what made her so good before and aren't actually that into competitive Smash. "

I'm sorry, I just stopped reading there. Dude, you need to chill out. Your opinion isn't fact. You cannot assume you know everything about a character competitevely when the game has been out for less than a month. Nor can you simply invalidate some else's beliefs just 'cause you disagree. If we all assume she's bad and no one plays her competitevly, then of course she won't be doing well, because no one will be pushing for developments. Smash 4 Rosalina =/= Smash Ultimate Rosalina, but that does not make her garbage like you'd like to think.

TL;DR, get over yourself.
 

ChikoLad

Purple Boi
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Jan 11, 2014
Messages
23,081
What's funny is that this "the game's only been out a month" mentality only exists with the Smash Wii U/3DS players. It was also those players who had the "every character is good" mentality when Smash Wii U/3DS was in it's first month. And look what happened there.

While it's true that nobody can know everything about the game in its first month, there are also certain things that can be ascertained pretty promptly. And a general idea of how good most characters are is one of those things. And ESPECIALLY, how good that character is compared to the last game. Like, that's not something that needs more than a week to figure out for most characters. I would say that if Rosalina hasn't been showing much promise after the first month, even with players adapting to the changes, then that is indicative that she is not as good as last game. People noticed immediately when Smash 3DS came out that Rosalina was really good, even before release. And that held true even with her getting nerfed in patches because her fundamental design was so solid in that game and she integrated well with the mechanics of that game. The opposite is happening in Ultimate. It's plain to see that she doesn't integrate as well with the new mechanics, and it's plain to see that her core design isn't as solid. It's a lot flimsier, held together by tape, and she isn't nearly as intuitive as she used to be. It says a lot when learning advanced tech is basically a requirement to do even PASSABLY well with a character.

So stop thinking in absolutes. Stop using "the game is a month old" as a catch all defense for anything you disagree with or anything someone points out that indicates why your main may not be this amazing top tier character. It's not supposed to be an affront to that character, I'm one of the most open fans of Rosalina you'll meet. I'm not telling you to not use that character. If anything, all I'm saying is that if you intend to use Rosalina competitively, be prepared for an uphill battle. Kudos to you if you do well with her in spite of it. "Low tier heroes" are not unheard of in fighting games. But stop being so dead set on this idea that she's top tier in this game and automatically writing off anything that suggests otherwise.

Personally I'm not even too concerned about her tier placement and viability, I'm just telling that how it is. Her not being fun to play is just my opinion though, and if you disagree with that, more power to you.
 

QNando

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Perhaps I did not choose my words correctly. I don't mean to insinuate Rosalina is top tier. I think she is better in this game, but of course the other characters surpass her. Rain and Shogun made a tier list that placed Rosalina in B teir. I find that's quite fitting. What I disagree with, is the idea that she is this broken, buggy, horribly-implemented character, which seems to be what you're implying. I also have issue with your oppressive, know-it-all tone. She's good, but is weighed down by the changes brought about by the new engine. Smash 4 was more of a defensive game, while ultimate is more offensive. Rosalina excelled in a more defensive environment, but it's not like she falls apart in an offensive one. She may no longer be top 5, sure. But there was a reason people hated fighting Rosalina in Smash 4 (me included despite being a Rosa main haha). Not to say she was broken of course, but the changes made to her were fair. So yes, I think Rosalina is better in Ultimate. It just so happens that so is everyone else, with a bunch of fighters being significantly better. She is still viable competitevely, despite not being oppressive.

 
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MezzoMe

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Should point out that nearly everyone got their hitboxes shrunk to a nut, which is why swordies are at the top at the moment, because when horizontal spacing is universally nerfed, the ability to space horizontally in some form becomes much more relevant, at very least until the other forms of spacing reveal themselves fully.
Also I don't remember a single time where people fell out of Fair, could be because the move is arse and I almost never use it

But I'd like to express one thing: making expressive animation doesn't mean making them as exaggerated as humanly possible. Well, it kind of does because exaggeration is a principle of animation, but in her case, it is the opposite that you are trying to do. It's easy to overshoot an animation ten-times fold, what is harder is giving the illusion of life to a character that stares at you like this, and that moves while spinning around her limbs or her body around an axis and without any inertia, I'd be quite hard-pressed to replace a crazed smile with a really subdued one and subdue her approximately dozen-something faces while still registering like different faces, for instance. The reason I believe her render is the best in the series is the way it menaged to give her this balance, on top of adding even more information about her and Luma, all the while remaining harmonized and with a clear flow
 
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Diabolique

Smash Cadet
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Jan 30, 2009
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I can't seem to get my footing with the new Rosalina. I love the character and still want to play her a bit, but I still find myself losing to players that are (this may sound pretentious but true) not really that good.

What is everyone's bread and butter? Especially when it comes to neutral. With Jab gone and Nair being slower, I find it difficult to pressure my opponent into doing much of anything. I find Dtilt pretty useful, but it extends hurtboxes and doesn't really lead into anything. Starbits is kinda good in some matchups, but I feel it is still too slow, and if you space it at max range so it safest it does no damage lol.

Also, in my battles I noticed the following problems I ran into. Has these happened to anyone else?
1. People falling out of Fair (more so rising Fair)
2. When you send out Luma, many projectiles cause Luma to go into hitstun - making untethered play almost impossible against MUs like Pikachu, Pichu, Falco, etc.
3. People falling out of last hit of Dash Attack at high %s
4. Hitboxes that exist for deceptively short time ( Fsmash, Bair, Dair etc.)
5. Terrible OoS options - Bair doesn't hit anyone shorter than Rosa unless you have Luma, and the shielded attack may have pushed him away.
6 Luma basically clanks with every single aerial in the game


Last one is REALLY annoying. I've had Luma Dair completely clank through Samus UpB for some reason. Also Luma Uptilt just flat out loses to any basically Wario attack in the air (painful match up experience)

I've also looked at videos on youtube and can't find ANY resources on her. So strange.



EDIT: Something I noticed while playing that I'm fairly certain was not in Smash 4 -

If you shoot Luma off-stage with B, Luma will try to automatically hop back to the stage, so it kinda limits any use you have for edge guarding.

HOWEVER, if you shoot Luma off stage and charge a smash attack, Luma will start to sink down without jumping. I'm pretty sure this was NOT a thing in Smash 4. Combined with longer charge on smash attacks, Luma can catch low recoveries really easily and with little risk. Upsmash's hitbox is obviously the largest, but I have had some success with Dsmash and Fsmash I guess could be used too.
 
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MezzoMe

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There's a lot to go through
What is everyone's bread and butter
Nothing, her mildly advanced stuff(the current apex of the current level of skill) loses to other characters' BnB, the closest thing to that is a mass use of shadowing.

When you send out Luma, many projectiles cause Luma to go into hitstun
If you are referring to tumble hitstun, that depends both on his damage and the move's knockback, but yes, in general you don't use dethered play against those characters, you just give your back to them while advancing

Hitboxes that exist for deceptively short time
No, most moves she has are as active as the usual amount a hitbox his(2-3 frames)
Terrible OoS options - Bair doesn't hit anyone shorter than Rosa unless you have Luma, and the shielded attack may have pushed him away.
Nair if you have Luma, USmash otherwise, not shielding in the first place because Luma can and will fly away in one hit
Luma basically clanks with every single aerial in the game
That always happened with nearly any of his attacks
HOWEVER, if you shoot Luma off stage and charge a smash attack, Luma will start to sink down without jumping. I'm pretty sure this was NOT a thing in Smash 4. Combined with longer charge on smash attacks, Luma can catch low recoveries really easily and with little risk. Upsmash's hitbox is obviously the largest, but I have had some success with Dsmash and Fsmash I guess could be used too
Any attack does that when Luma is in the air
 
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