The bonds of Mother and Child are strong, Rosalina and Luma to return!

[Iron Kraken]

Bless Sakurai and the development team for Ultimate. It's obvious that they have truly paid attention to how various characters needed to be changed.

My hope for Rosalina coming into Ultimate was that she would have less jank but in return, de-tethered Luma play would be more worthwhile. And that's exactly what they've done.

So to review...

- Luma has a 1.5x damage multiplier when de-tethered

- Luma Shot is much better (Luma can act faster out of launch & you can do more with Luma while he's returning to Rosa)

- Star Bits are much better (more range, faster)

- Luma is more responsive to Rosa's movements

Having de-tethered play as an actual staple for her gameplay is potentially far more interesting than spamming jab and up-air.

 

[Cosmic77]

People will just have to learn to use Rosalina the way she was always intended to be used - as a puppeteer character.

Holding Luma close and never letting it leave Rosa's side isn't going to work anymore. We'll have to separate the pair more often and come up with new combos and traps that can rack up damage. Might be a little difficult to pull off at first, but if we can master it, the payoff of the 1.5 multiplier from Luma in addition to the damage from Rosalina would be huge. Smash attacks would now deal over 20 damage if they hit properly.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A 1.5x damage multiplier probably won't mean too much if the base damage for the Luma's attacks is still rather low. On the other hand, increasing the damage dealt by even 1% can significantly increase an attack's KO potential, depending on how high its KBG is.

 

[Killo89]

On an unrelated note, Japanese IGN made a list of all the Classic modes they could notice in the Nintendo Live stream, and Rosalina's one was featured (and translated on reddit. Rosalina's one is "星々への探訪 / "Searching the Stars" or "Exploration among the stars", roughly translated. I suppose she'll have to fight galactic characters, but I do wonder how they'll differentiate it from Ridley's, which is "銀河の驚異! スペースパイレーツ / "Wonders of the Galaxy! Space Pirates"... I mean, Rosalina's potential challengers are: Olimar, Samus, Ridley, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Kirby, Meta Knight, and... well, that's all. I think. I don't know which ones belong in which category there.

On a similar topic, we saw in the WoL trailer how Falco was to be rescued on another planet thanks to the Airwing (I think it was the Airwing?), and I guess Rosalina will also be hidden among the reachable planets. This is foolish, but I hope we'll at least see something of the Comet Observatory, which we haven't seen for two whole years, not counting Superstars which reused Mario Golf's animations... I'm kinda disappointed we haven't seen it as a stage, and it's not even floating behind the Mario Galaxy stage!

 

[Iron Kraken]

A 1.5x damage multiplier probably won't mean too much if the base damage for the Luma's attacks is still rather low. On the other hand, increasing the damage dealt by even 1% can significantly increase an attack's KO potential, depending on how high its KBG is.

The reason the 1.5x damage multiplier is such a big deal isn’t the extra damage, it’s that de-tethered Luma attacks will KO much earlier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It seems I got beat to the 1.5x multiplier on detethered Luma knockback, but I found a Google Doc with a bunch of changes in it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...1mCAZSdBGTiZcemdrPa2CrgzT0/edit#gid=473257982

Notable changes from a brief skim:

* Luma respawn is faster in FFA. (Does this also apply to doubles?)
* Nair can be done twice in a short hop. If the second one is delayed, you get a lunar landing.
* Fair autocancels from a short hop.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The reason the 1.5x damage multiplier is such a big deal isn’t the extra damage, it’s that de-tethered Luma attacks will KO much earlier.

Still, damage dealt plays an important factor when it comes to an attack's KO potential. If an attack doesn't deal much damage, it would need to have high KBG to have any chance of being a KO maker.

 

[MezzoMe]

It seems I got beat to the 1.5x multiplier on detethered Luma knockback, but I found a Google Doc with a bunch of changes in it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...1mCAZSdBGTiZcemdrPa2CrgzT0/edit#gid=473257982

Notable changes from a brief skim:

* Luma respawn is faster in FFA. (Does this also apply to doubles?)
* Nair can be done twice in a short hop. If the second one is delayed, you get a lunar landing.
* Fair autocancels from a short hop.

It was Tizio Random who gave us that, in the previous page

A 1.5x damage multiplier probably won't mean too much if the base damage for the Luma's attacks is still rather low. On the other hand, increasing the damage dealt by even 1% can significantly increase an attack's KO potential, depending on how high its KBG is.

As I said, knockback only scales with the base damage, the final damage matters only because it calculates based on the damage post-hit. Instead, shieldstun depends on the final damage

And since a single hit from his longest-ranged attack would deal over 5% with both multipliers, I'd say that it does warrant the move creating a hot spot, let alone the other attacks

 

[Iron Kraken]

Still, damage dealt plays an important factor when it comes to an attack's KO potential. If an attack doesn't deal much damage, it would need to have high KBG to have any chance of being a KO maker.

Yes, I know. I'm saying the reason the 1.5x damage multiplier is a big deal is that it means de-tethered Luma attacks will have much higher knockback and therefore KO power.

 

[NeonNote]

So they're trying to encourage players to use de synched luma now? The reason de synching was hardly used in smash 4 competitively speaking is because it wasn't a good option compared to staying tethered at pretty much all times. I find this extremely frustrating. They already toned down the jank, they didn't have to ruin her other strengths.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

As I said, knockback only scales with the base damage, the final damage matters only because it calculates based on the damage post-hit. Instead, shieldstun depends on the final damage

And since a single hit from his longest-ranged attack would deal over 5% with both multipliers, I'd say that it does warrant the move creating a hot spot, let alone the other attacks

I do recall that in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, damage multipliers (such as from the size changing items) never affected an attack's BKB and KBG values (unless stale-move negation comes into play), but the damage increase does enable the attack to make KOs sooner than it normally would.

Did Smash Ultimate make changes to the knockback formula that separate it from the knockback formula that Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U use?

 

[MezzoMe]

I do recall that in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, damage multipliers (such as from the size changing items) never affected an attack's BKB and KBG values (unless stale-move negation comes into play), but the damage increase does enable the attack to make KOs sooner than it normally would.

Did Smash Ultimate make changes to the knockback formula that separate it from the knockback formula that Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U use?

As far as I'm aware, Ultimate didn't make such change, if it the 1v1 multiplier would make everyone die at 80%, and at most the difference is of about 5.4%, from his USmash

 

[Kuon]

So they're trying to encourage players to use de synched luma now? The reason de synching was hardly used in smash 4 competitively speaking is because it wasn't a good option compared to staying tethered at pretty much all times. I find this extremely frustrating. They already toned down the jank, they didn't have to ruin her other strengths.

What is a de synched Luma? Also, from what I'm understanding, does this mean that Rosalina is better in Ultimate than in Wii U?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What is a de synched Luma? Also, from what I'm understanding, does this mean that Rosalina is better in Ultimate than in Wii U?

I'm probably guessing that the Luma de-sync has something to do with Luma Shot. As for whether or not Rosalina is better or worse than in Smash 3DS / Wii U, it's kind of a mixed bag right now.

 

[Kuon]

I'm probably guessing that the Luma de-sync has something to do with Luma Shot. As for whether or not Rosalina is better or worse than in Smash 3DS / Wii U, it's kind of a mixed bag right now.

As long as she doesn't get some crazy nerf, since she's already pretty op

 

[NeonNote]

What is a de synched Luma? Also, from what I'm understanding, does this mean that Rosalina is better in Ultimate than in Wii U?

It's a luma that has been sent out by luma shot. I'm almost 100% certain she is considerably worse in ultimate for this reason alone.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's a luma that has been sent out by luma shot. I'm almost 100% certain she is considerably worse in ultimate for this reason alone.

Makes you wonder if Rosalina's tier position is going to end up being poor.

 

[Kuon]

It's a luma that has been sent out by luma shot. I'm almost 100% certain she is considerably worse in ultimate for this reason alone.

Does she lose the Luma after Luma Shot? I guess I don't understand what you mean by 'sent out'

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Does she lose the Luma after Luma Shot? I guess I don't understand what you mean by 'sent out'

In Smash 3DS / Wii U, Luma Shot separates the Luma from Rosalina, so it moves around independently. Fortunately, Rosalina could call the Luma back by using Luma Shot again.

 

[Kuon]

In Smash 3DS / Wii U, Luma Shot separates the Luma from Rosalina, so it moves around independently. Fortunately, Rosalina could call the Luma back by using Luma Shot again.

Okay, I understand now. But why is she considerably worse now in Ultimate?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Okay, I understand now. But why is she considerably worse now in Ultimate?

It has to do with the Luma only getting the 1.5x damage multiplier bonus when it's separated from Rosalina. For certain match-ups, you can't risk doing that, especially when talking about fighters with reflectors (such as Fox), since they can reflect Luma Shot right back at Rosalina. And since the Luma no longer moves forward when performing jabs, it becomes more difficult to keep close combat fighters off of Rosalina's face.

 

[Kuon]

It has to do with the Luma only getting the 1.5x damage multiplier bonus when it's separated from Rosalina. For certain match-ups, you can't risk doing that, especially when talking about fighters with reflectors (such as Fox), since they can reflect Luma Shot right back at Rosalina. And since the Luma no longer moves forward when performing jabs, it becomes more difficult to keep close combat fighters off of Rosalina's face.

Oh I see. So is there not a damage multiplayer when Luma is next to Rosalina?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh I see. So is there not a damage multiplayer when Luma is next to Rosalina?

The Luma would still have the 1.5x damage multiplier if it's near Rosalina, but ONLY if it's moving around independently. As soon as Rosalina calls back the Luma, the damage multiplier bonus will be turned off.

 

[Tizio Random]

From what we gathered so far, it seems easier to control Luma while detethered, he looks more responsive to movements. Also, the 1.5x damage buff is great, they really want to make you play her as the puppeteer she was intended.

While, sure, she is weaker, it's way way too early to tell. We won't have a general idea of how the game really play until at least march. Too many new crucial mechanics were added and for what we know now Rosa can have something like "Super Lunar Landing" and we can't know yet. Also patches will happen and change many things so don't take anything for granted. Experiment a lot and things will come naturally.

For me, I won't surely drop her unless the metagame becomes so optimized it's nigh impossible to win with her. In case that happens, only at that point.

 

[Kuon]

From what we gathered so far, it seems easier to control Luma while detethered, he looks more responsive to movements. Also, the 1.5x damage buff is great, they really want to make you play her as the puppeteer she was intended.

While, sure, she is weaker, it's way way too early to tell. We won't have a general idea of how the game really play until at least march. Too many new crucial mechanics were added and for what we know now Rosa can have something like "Super Lunar Landing" and we can't know yet. Also patches will happen and change many things so don't take anything for granted. Experiment a lot and things will come naturally.

For me, I won't surely drop her unless the metagame becomes so optimized it's nigh impossible to win with her. In case that happens, only at that point.

I wouldn't mind if she gets a bit of a nerf, since she was pretty OP in Smash 4 even after the patches and DLC. But I just hope she's not, like you said, so nerfed that she becomes comparable to the likes of Jiggly

 

[Swiftie_Muggle]

Also if anybody didn't notice. Rosalina's Final Smash is still quite terrible. It has abysmal range and can be dodged, unlike Zelda's for example which really sucks you right in and cannot be dodged that easily.

Sigh.

 

[Killo89]

Also if anybody didn't notice. Rosalina's Final Smash is still quite terrible. It has abysmal range and can be dodged, unlike Zelda's for example which really sucks you right in and cannot be dodged that easily.

Sigh.

They dumbed down all FS so that you only use them for immediate, heavy damage, but Rosalina's wasn't supposed to work like that. It was a spacing tool you had to work around and with to make it happen. Now you can't because the duration isn't enough, but they haven't changed anything else to it... And yeah on the other hand, Zelda's range for her FS is gigantic and draws opponents in...
Sorry but surely the Grand Star could have some sort of gravitation effect around it to attract the enemies?
Zelda's does and it's an insta kill above 100 and also almost impossible to dodge... How is that fair?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A good portion of old Final Smashes got the middle finger for Smash Ultimate. It just feels sad that you can't play as Wario-Man or Giga Mac anymore, and it's not like they lasted all that long in Smash 3DS / Wii U.

But obviously, the Final Smash meter's inclusion could easily explain why the Final Smash changes were made.

 

[NeonNote]

Well, if she's not good upon launch (which is looking more and more likely), hopefully she'll get the Marth and Lucina treatment from Smash 4. Character with a fundamentally good design who was overly nerfed but then brought back up.

 

[Killo89]

That Elite mode, supposedly used for balance changes by the team, is kind of a mixed bag though. What will they take into account? Pickrate or winrate only? Will they consider that some characters are somewhat more difficult to get competitive value out of (Rosalina in that case)? Will they analyse how much time a character needs before getting their first kill? Early kills?
Of course we can't know for sure, but she could basically get the Greninja treatment because of early kills, because of damage input average in all her matches, etc.

For instance they want to make her more of a puppeteer by buffing desynched Luma, but how will they see the effects of these changes outside of tournaments where she's rarely played (for a top tier, I mean)?

So yeah. It could go anywhere, either being nerfed even more or buffed in inappropriate places...

 

[ChikoLad]

I see a lot of people saying "they just want you to use de-sync Luma" but I literally always did. I was always an advocate for playing Rosalina & Luma as paradigm shifters as it gave them way more options and mix-ups rather than just turtling the whole match and relying on one or two moves to KO.

So these changes to me just signify making one half of her design strictly worse and overall it dumbs down half of her character design.

Also her Final Smash should have been the Comet Observatory. Hell it should have been that the first time. A bunch of other space characters summon their vessels for their Final Smash, so it's dumb that Rosalina doesn't.

I feel like they're really cheaping out on her this game. Like a lot of things in this game. People can defend the game on the amount of characters it has but that means nothing to me if the quality of many of them suffer, and they have to cheap out on the mode selection.

 

[Killo89]

Okay. Then play her de-sync all you want. Doesn't mean they're not trying to force the player to do it more, that's still their goal, even if they weakened her other assets. Yeah, those are nerfs, so it always feels kind of unfair, but c'est la vie.

And although the Comet Observatory would be a very logical and almost expected idea, I can quite figure out why they haven't used it. The thing's massive. The Airwings and the Great Fox all seem very detailed, but they're just a bunch of triangles with metal textures. Samus' spaceship isn't that hard to create because it's rather small, and they had used it for Sm4sh anyway, so the base was still there). The other vessel quite as huge as the Comet Observatory would be the Halbert, and it's so big it got its own stage. And many other Star Fox ships got their stages because of the details they required.

And I mean, they reused Chrom for Robin's FS, so would they really spend all that time recreating the Comet Observatory in HD (and that would have been the first time), but also creating a cutscene where it turns into a comet (with all these parts reassembling, stretchening, disappearing, flying around, the sparkles of her powers, creating a space background with references to Galaxy planets...) while including Rosalina and the Luma(s)? Sure, that would have been majestic and stuff, but that's too much work for a single FS. The others don't have that.

Can you believe the last time we saw the Comet Observatory was like two years ago and that was in a Mini-Mario game lol, though it appeared like three times in 3DS spinoffs I think?

 

[ChikoLad]

The thing's massive.

People said this about Ridley but look at where we are now.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I feel like they're really cheaping out on her this game. Like a lot of things in this game. People can defend the game on the amount of characters it has but that means nothing to me if the quality of many of them suffer, and they have to cheap out on the mode selection.

Yoshi apparently isn't getting much love either. I know that his weight is above average, but not every fighter with a weight value above 100 has to be suffering from poor frame data.

 

[Killo89]

People said this about Ridley but look at where we are now.

You understood me. But just in case you hadn't, that's a whole character compared to a single FS. There are five different areas to model AND animate, while respecting the transformation cutscene from the Galaxy game where everything expands, disappears, moves arounds, floats, spins, sparkles and changes color, and reminder that the cutscene itself is quite slow. This would require the same amount of time that it took for K. Rool's FS, and clearly, you said it, they won't (and haven't) work their butts off for that kind of things, not when Rosalina had a FS still referencing her home game which they could easily reuse.
I understand your frustration about it, but there are too many downsides to FS Comet Observatory than it first may seem.

Though I agree they have been missing out on many parts of the game, and I'm still looking for Rosalina's "more expressive faces" for instance. She has basically three moods in Smash, being "mouth in o", "mouth closed" but also "crazy pupils when she's hitsun or grabs someone". That's ridiculous.

 

[ChikoLad]

You understood me. But just in case you hadn't, that's a whole character compared to a single FS. There are five different areas to model AND animate, while respecting the transformation cutscene from the Galaxy game where everything expands, disappears, moves arounds, floats, spins, sparkles and changes color, and reminder that the cutscene itself is quite slow. This would require the same amount of time that it took for K. Rool's FS, and clearly, you said it, they won't (and haven't) work their butts off for that kind of things, not when Rosalina had a FS still referencing her home game which they could easily reuse.
I understand your frustration about it, but there are too many downsides to FS Comet Observatory than it first may seem.

Though I agree they have been missing out on many parts of the game, and I'm still looking for Rosalina's "more expressive faces" for instance. She has basically three moods in Smash, being "mouth in o", "mouth closed" but also "crazy pupils when she's hitsun or grabs someone". That's ridiculous.

They don't need to completely remodel Rosalina's Observatory, they could just reuse the one from 3D World.

It would probably whizz by too fast to get a look at the details so it doesn't need to be detailed.

And Smash's models just aren't that detailed period, so even redoing it wouldn't be that hard.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Alternatively, positioning the Grand Star in front of Rosalina would more likely make her Final Smash feel more practical.

 

[Killo89]

They don't need to completely remodel Rosalina's Observatory, they could just reuse the one from 3D World.

It would probably whizz by too fast to get a look at the details so it doesn't need to be detailed.

And Smash's models just aren't that detailed period, so even redoing it wouldn't be that hard.

And I tell you they wouldn't bother. She has a (barely tho) functioning FS which is a nice reference to the Galaxy games. Why would they suddenly decide to pour time and useless effort into a cutscene for the Comet Observatory? I agree with you that they've been lazy on some aspects of the game, and yet simultaneously, I don't feel entitled enough to tell them they "could have done it anyway".
At this point, the Observatory has a some chance of appearing in WoL as a means of transportation in the space-themed areas.

Alternatively, positioning the Grand Star in front of Rosalina would more likely make her Final Smash feel more practical.

Making it draw opponents in forcefully would make it practical but also completely safe to use. Have the attracting area be all around it and grow with the star. That would be fearsome though, but I mean, Zelda's allowed to do it, so Rosalina should to.

 

[ChikoLad]

And I tell you they wouldn't bother. She has a (barely tho) functioning FS which is a nice reference to the Galaxy games. Why would they suddenly decide to pour time and useless effort into a cutscene for the Comet Observatory? I agree with you that they've been lazy on some aspects of the game, and yet simultaneously, I don't feel entitled enough to tell them they "could have done it anyway".
At this point, the Observatory has a some chance of appearing in WoL as a means of transportation in the space-themed areas.

I mean you're making it sound like it would be a huge effort when it really wouldn't be. They put far more effort into other remade Final Smash attacks like King Dedede's and Bowser's than Rosalina having the Observatory whizz by would ever require. It doesn't even need to be a cinematic cutscene. They could literally just have it whizz across the stage in a straight line and it would already be 100% more representative of the character and more practical than her current one.

 

[Tizio Random]

I don't wanna be that guy but I think you guys are reading way too much into Nintendo's "intentions".

Rosalina's final smash wasn't that good in Smash 4 but they tried to fixed it with the new draw in mechanic. Did it work? Not too well but, to be honest, it doesn't matter. Not all final smashes are going to be amazing and even Sakurai and the development team know that they don't have a place in competitive play, they literally said that in the direct. So, don't be bored too much by that.

Then, I'm seeing people overreacting to her nerfs. Sure, they gutted her best tools but her best tools such as jabs, upair and dair were extremely good and oppressive. She wasn't the best fighter in Smash 4 for many reasons, one of them being broken 5.99 characters, but that doesn't mean she should have been left untouched. I'm fine with the nerfs, to be honest, and I really like the idea of Luma being buffed when detethered. Sure, you could play with detethered Luma too in Smash 4 but there wasn't much reward in doing so aside from gimmicky set ups. Now they are actively giving us a reason to use him in this way.