The Big MI Discussion Topic

[Juggleguy]

That's okay, as long as you provide your share of gas money... staying the night isn't an extra burden for me, I was actually already thinking about it before.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

k sweet yeah i got you for the gas money

 

[Rabbi Nevins]

I dont care how many people stay in my room, just keep in mind its my dorm room. So however many people fit I guess. Me and mark can share a bed to save room <3

 

[Juggleguy]

Well, looks like we have at least 5-6 coming. We'll probably need a second place... could another MSUer provide housing Friday night? Josh, Tyler, anyone?

 

[Hot_ArmS]

pretty sure josh already said he can house ppl so thats cool

 

[Kail]

Iron Man tourney should go down. IMO.

 

[Aceplayer]

Iron Man tourney should go down. IMO.

I would like this as well as perhaps a low tier sort of thing that we could do.

(Low to Negligible or something).

 

[DRDN]

Iron Man tourney should go down. IMO.

what is this iron man tournament

Also does anyone know how MI is doing at pound?

 

[Kail]

Iron Man Rule Set:

Each player picks one character from each tier of Hungrybox's lastest tier list which can be found at: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286577&highlight=2010+melee+tier+list

First match is blind draw where neither player will know their opponents character.
Beyond that, matches play out like a normal crew battle.
Player SDs stocks until they start with what they had remaining from the previous match.
First player to lose all 28 stocks loses.

All neutral stages are on including Pokemon Stadium.

Rule set between matches is the same as a normal tournament bracket

 

[DRDN]

link doesn't work for me

 

[Kail]

Pretty sure that fixed it.

 

[Juggleguy]

FYI, we made a couple revisions to that iron man ruleset, the first being you don't have to choose all your chars at the beginning (this makes for more interesting character counterpicks later on), the second being we bumped Sheik up to top tier and Marth down to upper tier, leaving only 6 tier ranks and 24 stocks total. We also decided that wobbling (defined as any continuous ICs grab combo that does not involve throwing) and Sheik chaingrabbing (defined as two or more consecutive grabs) should both be banned.

I'll print out a bunch of "iron man ruleset" sheets and bring them with me on Friday... should be madddd hype

 

[Dre the Ace]

Don't forget to practice that Gengar.

 

[Kail]

I don't see why Sheik's chain throw is that big of a deal. Especially since if you move her to top there aren't many people who would pick her over Fox or Falco.

 

[Juggleguy]

It's too good against everyone low tier and below... to the point that a well-timed counterpick of Sheik has much more weight than having any sort of skill with a character in low tier or below. And that's not what iron man matches should be about. Just like wobbling, the technique isn't game-breaking in itself, but it promotes all the wrong aspects of the game's competitive side and should be banned in iron man matches.

 

[Boxxy]

ggs drdn. just picked up morrigan yesterday. don't really kno many combos

 

[Aceplayer]

Agree to ban Samus's uptilt as well. Amirite?

 

[Zankoku]

Greetz from Vegas. I'll post again in a few days when my apartment actually has power. (lol, forgot I have to call about that)

 

[Kail]

So they pick Sheik and take a few stocks. Then you pick your main and win? It's not like the out come will really be any different if you ban the chain throws. She'll just re-grab twice and start the flurry of forward tilts which hardly takes any more skill. If you are banning Sheik's chain throw why not ban all of them? Or ban Falco's laser approach, Marth's forward air spacing or Puff's wall of pain? There are things in the game that make the good characters good for a reason.

Plus, at least her chain throw stops after a certain percent. The other character's stay that way forever regardless of percent.

 

[Kail]

Plus if you can change your character why not pick ones that can't be chain thrown? The point of counter picking is to do just that. Countering them.

 

[DarkLouis331]

So Cheese beat Bloodcross (Roller's pool) and in Bloodcross's rage he threw a controller and knocked someone out with it. Ragequaza's rage has been beaten.

At least he didn't pick it up, throw it a 2nd time, and knock someone else out. D:

 

[Pimp Daddy Supreme]

Yo sheik sux

 

[Juggleguy]

Plus if you can change your character why not pick ones that can't be chain thrown? The point of counter picking is to do just that. Countering them.

This post makes no sense. You can't suddenly change your character once the opponent counterpicks Sheik. All it takes is for you to bring out your bottom/negligible (all of which can be chainthrown as far as I know) and if the character is exposed (has 3-4 stocks left) then that's a free 3-4 stocks for Sheik to chaingrab the hell out of.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

At least he didn't pick it up, throw it a 2nd time, and knock someone else out. D:

That would have been amazing..lol

 

[Kail]

That was a miscommunication on my part. I mean change your line up to pick someone (after sheik wins) to someone who can't be chain thrown or someone you feel comfortable playing Sheik against.

She can't chain throw all of them. Only around half and it's not for that long (20 to 30ish percent at most), with the exception of DK, Bowser, and probably Link. Then again I've always been of the mind set that if it isn't game breaking that it shouldn't be an issue. I've never had an issue with any form of chain grabs or wobbling even when they've been used against me and/or ***** me. I mean the same concept can be applied to Ganon. He can actually chain throw more characters for more percent and you don't seem to be concerned about his throw.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

ganon's pretty stupid

ill just moonwalk bair you

 

[Juggleguy]

The problem is... sure, you can counterpick someone to beat Sheik, but that happens after she just wrecked one of your bottom/negligibles. Picking your main to 2-stock the opponent's Sheik isn't going to make up for the fact that the Sheik just 4-stocked your bottom/negligible after it was left exposed with a ton of stocks on the board. The entire iron man match becomes a game of who can time their Sheik counterpick the best to chaingrab 4 stocks away from the opponent's bottom/negligible. Isn't it supposed to be a game of who is the best at a variety of characters top-to-bottom on the tier list?

List of chars Sheik can chaingrab guaranteed:

Sheik
Ganondorf
Pikachu
Link
Roy
Mewtwo
Mr. G&W
Yoshi
Pichu
Bowser
Ness

(that's 9 out of the bottom 12 on the tier list)

the same concept can be applied to Ganon. He can actually chain throw more characters for more percent and you don't seem to be concerned about his throw.

Where can I find data/evidence for this? I was under the impression that Ganon's throws are much more vulnerable to escape through DI.

 

[Velynn]

Don't get grabbed. Also, bottom/worst/whatever are meant to get trashed. Instead of thinking of particular worst case scenarios, don't expose or play the characters at bad times. Also, the Iron man matchup, in my mind, is who you pick first and how well you do.

If you really feel your bottom tier characters are going to get 4-stocked. Play to take off stocks, not to win the match.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

you guys sound like brawl

banning a move of a top tier so other characters will have a better matchup

sounds like lgl for mk

 

[Kail]

Chaingrabbable Characters:

Bowser --------- (4) ---- 0-72
Yoshi ------------ (2) ---- 0-36 (30+ make sure you grab his eyes before he spins around)
DK ---------------- (4) ---- 21-69
Ganon ---------- (3) ---- 0-67
Falco ------------- (5) --- 12-Death (250+)
Fox --------------- (5+) - 34-Death (250)
Ness ------------- (3) ---- 0-18 (Higher if they don't airdodge. Use dash grab for its duration)
Sheik ------------ (1) ---- 0-90 (80-90 is very tricky due to Sheik's skinny legs)
Link -------------- (3) ---- 0-74
Y Link ----------- (1) ---- 0-72 (Legs ftw)
Pichu ------------ (2) ---- 0-54 (Thank his bigass head for this one)
Pikachu --------- (1) ---- 0-37 (His tumble animation works very much in his favor to escape)
G&W ------------- (2) ---- 0-28
Marth ----------- (4) ---- 0-15
Roy -------------- (3) ---- 0-91 (Hooray legs!)

I don't think we are going to come to an agreement on this topic. I can just say that honestly when it comes down to it I couldn't care less if a person tries to chain throw me. So if it's okay with everyone involved, feel free to chain throw me with whoever.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

ill chaingrab you with fox!

 

[Juggleguy]

I wasn't aware of the extent of Ganon's chaingrab power. Those numbers are pretty startling, but do you mind explaining to me why I've never seen a Fox/Falco get chaingrabbed to death by Ganon? This is just my opinion, I'd be willing to give it a shot with Sheik chaingrabs allowed... but I still think that turns the iron man into a game of who can use her at the best time to destroy the opponent's current character, and to address Andrew's point, I think it's stupid to put so much weight and pressure on not exposing your bottom/negligible to a possible Sheik CP.

 

[Kail]

The number next to the name is the difficulty of how hard it is to chain throw them. So it's rather hard to do it to fox and falco. It's much easier to hit them once to 17%. Then down throw jab them and forward air their missed tech (Everyone misses it, watch Kage to it to everyone forever). Which also leads to an edge guarding opportunity which is much better then a few more percent on a chain throw.

But honestly though, who is going to pick Sheik over Fox or Falco? Hell, even look at people who Main/Secondary Sheik. They all have another top tier that they play so they are effectively down to picking their Main or Secondary versus someone like You, me, Velynn, or most other people who can pick their Mains, secondaries, and probably thirdies too. Provided they aren't Moooose who can only pick Fox or Falco.

 

[Velynn]

I just don't think it's as big a deal you're making it out to be. Shiek's good, but nothing to be afraid of if you really do have better overall characters. It all comes down to strategy and your strengths with your characters.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

i can only play top/high tier characters

 

[DRDN]

ggs drdn. just picked up morrigan yesterday. don't really kno many combos

ggs

Build up 3 supers do the combos to an air combo and finish it with her down to back double punch I was trying to do it when I picked her but I kept messing everything up

 

[Boxxy]

i know a couple that just use 1 meter now. much better off using just 1 meter than 3

 

[DRDN]

but her missles suck for combos most people can jump out and block it

 

[Boxxy]

if you cancel heavy dp it combos

special -> med x2 -> heavy -> heavy dp -> missiles

she can combo into the other one cause it otgs

 

[DRDN]

Yeah thats in the mission mode but I dont like it I prefer her other special