The Best Character Under Perfect Conditions

[Praxis]

A thread idea I had after listening to people argue about Olimar's camp game, Ice Climber's grabs, Wolf's shine, etc in other threads.

Ok, so let's say there there is a tournament somewhere, someplace. At this tournament, a bunch of attendees show up that have literally superhuman reflexes, being able to think and react one frame at a time. These players know the game to the maximum degree possible and have read every single post on Smashboards.

There is one player playing each character in the game.

Who is most likely to win?

Canidates I can think of:

Wolf:
Can Shine through everything for invincibility frames, making him nearly untouchable.

Olimar:
Perfect camping. You can't kill what you can't hit.

Metaknight:
Fastest aerial in the game (uair) + good recovery means that, using the "aerials for recovery" trick, MK will be REALLY hard to kill. Add in his absurd moveset and he'd be really fast, powerful, and really hard to kill but impossible to chain attacks on due to light weight + smash DI. Plus, invincibility frames on up-B, and unlike Marth, his can't be punished well afterwards.


Marth:
Long range, making him tough to punish, plus 1-frame up-B and really fast forward-B allowing him to punish almost anything out of shield.

Wario:
Perfect spacing would allow the Wario to never get grabbed, and make him very tough to hit. Perfect super armor usage would make him really tough to punish as well, and bite through shields...

Ice Climbers:
One grab = one stock, consistently. Throw in some desync'd craziness to make them crazy powerful.

Ganondorf:
Could his forward-B be an infinite under frame-perfect conditions?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You need to mention ISJR if you're talking ideal conditions.

I think that that helps Marth a bit, having ISJR F-airs. also might put Pikachu in the running.

Theoretically, if one person feels like being a total ****** and has the ability to do so, Wolf infi-shines to sudden death, and then infi-shines the bomb barrage. MK also Infi-capes the entire match, followed by infinite caping the sudden death bomb barrage. Then it becomes an endurance match. fun.

 

[metaXzero]

If MK is allowed to IDC.......

 

[The Halloween Captain]

If MK is allowed to IDC.......

......then MK and Wolf tie.

 

[Steel]

THC: ISJR is practically worthless for Marth. If you plan on attempting to just camp with fairs youll get *****.

You didn't mention Marth's 1-5 invincibility frames on his up b, he could basically plow through everything like wolf can.. just with some lag.

 

[LuigiKing]

What is this wolf infinite shine thing now? I'm totally lost.

 

[Hive]

I think ICs are... their grab game is insane ^^ and i think there are a few moves that lead into grabs as well to account for their shorter range
but also very hard to master
anyways they get my vote ^^ even though the twin thing is a little creepy @.@

 

[hyperstation]

Ganondorf, obviously. He can fly now, and once I can do this tech flawlessly, it's gonna be like Flubber ganon all up in this b*tch.

 

[Hive]

ganon of course, is also pure man.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ganon can fly? Vids please? (Although I'm going to check anyway)

Untouchable>flight , unfortunately. But after characters who are never vurnerable, Pikachu, Ice climbers, and Olimar are all potent. I wouldn't be surprised if the ICs break Olimar's perfect camp with their duplicity.

 

[Excellence]

Olimar would be the best. Olimar has arguably the best damage rack-up in the game and he's a fortress. Seriously, if you can read your opponent well (in this case perfectly) you will not get hit, ever.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Olimar's smashes also get cancelled by Pikachu's neutral-a.

Still can't find the flying ganon...

 

[hyperstation]

Ganon can fly? Vids please? (Although I'm going to check anyway)

Untouchable>flight , unfortunately. But after characters who are never vurnerable, Pikachu, Ice climbers, and Olimar are all potent. I wouldn't be surprised if the ICs break Olimar's perfect camp with their duplicity.

Go to the ganon boards. There's a thread going there all about this. It was brought to the US last week by our japanandorf ambassador, Rihuganon. They've known about it for a little while, but we're all working really hard on this side of the Pacific to advance this tech as much as possible. I can't wait to land that first replay of a Flight of Ganon up to the height of a cyphering snake, catch him with a Side B, and drop him 50 feet to the ground like Dragon Ball or something. That has the potential to be the most brutal looking attack in Brawl. Said Ganon: Skull crushaz b we.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Found the vid!

What's really weird about Olimar is that while his Pikmin attacks aren't beaten by anything, they also don't beat anything. The weakest attack can cancel out Olimar's stronest projectile-based Pikmin moves.

 

[Excellence]

Found the vid!

What's really weird about Olimar is that while his Pikmin attacks aren't beaten by anything, they also don't beat anything. The weakest attack can cancel out Olimar's stronest projectile-based Pikmin moves.

This is true. Olimar has what I like to call pusedo-priority (spell check me plz). As long as the attack doesn't touch his hurtbox, he can continually clank with opponents. The trick is hitting first, which Olimar is VERY capable of doing.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

This is true. Olimar has what I like to call pusedo-priority (spell check me plz). As long as the attack doesn't touch his hurtbox, he can continually clank with opponents. The trick is hitting first, which Olimar is VERY capable of doing.

I imagine this means that when playing against Olimar, it is much more important to use fast attacks than powerful ones, so as to avoid Pikmin damage. I suspect Olimar won't be as good when he is figured out.

That is, IF he is ever figured out. Even Mew2King implied Olimar could be invincible, which may probably means Olimar's strengths go well beyond his oft-misunderstood pseudo-priority.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario, theoretically, can potentially be one of the absolute strongest characters in the game, while at the same time is one of the best damage-rackers, has laser priority on all his aura moves (minus sphere), a nigh ungimpable recovery with Up B on many stages, an amazing projectile with killing options, lingering hitboxes, etc.

My vote goes to Lucario.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

That fact that Ganondorf was mentioned as a candidate surprises me. Do I forsee a rise in his tier placement IRL?

 

[Ukemi]

Although ICs are some of my favorite characters, they would not be on the list since everyone there has super reflexes and therefore can Instant Grab Release. Of course, if you found some way to force the opponent to get into a helpless and grabbable position, then this post is null.

 

[Kitamerby]

Also, I think that if the tourney was for people who've read every single post on smashboards, wouldn't it be held at a cemetary? <<

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Characters with frame 1 invincible moves would always beat characters without them. Wolf and Marth would not only beat all the other characters (unless others have frame 1 invincible moves I'm not aware of), but they would beat them without being hit even once. Super armor is the only possible snag, and even in that case, it would have to be frame 1 super armor.

 

[Kitamerby]

Characters with frame 1 invincible moves would always beat characters without them. Wolf and Marth would not only beat all the other characters (unless others have frame 1 invincible moves I'm not aware of), but they would beat them without being hit even once. Super armor is the only possible snag, and even in that case, it would have to be frame 1 super armor.

Lingering hitboxes lol.

 

[Mazaloth]

A thread idea I had after listening to people argue about Olimar's camp game, Ice Climber's grabs, Wolf's shine, etc in other threads.

Ok, so let's say there there is a tournament somewhere, someplace. At this tournament, a bunch of attendees show up that have literally superhuman reflexes, being able to think and react one frame at a time. These players know the game to the maximum degree possible and have read every single post on Smashboards.

There is one player playing each character in the game.

Who is most likely to win?

Canidates I can think of:

Wolf:
Can Shine through everything for invincibility frames, making him nearly untouchable.

Olimar:
Perfect camping. You can't kill what you can't hit.

Metaknight:
Fastest aerial in the game (uair) + good recovery means that, using the "aerials for recovery" trick, MK will be REALLY hard to kill. Add in his absurd moveset and he'd be really fast, powerful, and really hard to kill but impossible to chain attacks on due to light weight + smash DI. Plus, invincibility frames on up-B, and unlike Marth, his can't be punished well afterwards.


Marth:
Long range, making him tough to punish, plus 1-frame up-B and really fast forward-B allowing him to punish almost anything out of shield.

Wario:
Perfect spacing would allow the Wario to never get grabbed, and make him very tough to hit. Perfect super armor usage would make him really tough to punish as well, and bite through shields...

Ice Climbers:
One grab = one stock, consistently. Throw in some desync'd craziness to make them crazy powerful.

Ganondorf:
Could his forward-B be an infinite under frame-perfect conditions?

Right now Metaknight is the 'best' character.
MK outpreforms anyone, period. Now add along the same satistics with perfect conditions, MK will always be top, just better, or should I say the best.

Mk will always be the best, with human error or not.

 

[XienZo]

So, in perfect conditions?

So this would be Brawl, running at 1 frame, and it basically becomes a turn based game(with each turn being a frame).

You know, in Olimar's perfect camping, his smashes are only 3rd in terms of importance. His first is Pikmin latch, but his most important non-projectile is...

HIS PIVOT GRAB

Try outprioritizing THAT. "Perfect camping" would be impossible otherwise, cause then CF could walk and jab every single pikmin flying at him. Its his GRABS that make him a fortress. Now that you have to avoid that, you can get caught in that uber priorty uair, or if you're flying lower, you eat an USmash. Become too predictable and you could have a pikmin chain in our face with its half-second hitbox. If you come in at the PERFECT angle with a high priority move, Olimar runs and pivot grabs, and you end up attacking a pikmin who is invincible and grabs you.

 

[Ref]

Okay question if two players with perfect reflexes and could do things like never get hit with wolf, wouldn't this just mean they will never get hit at all?

Now if you want to talk about one of these players against our current highest level of play then it is plausible for them to get hits. However if you are saying against each other, then they will never get hit would they?

 

[Coney]

ITT: Nuh-uh guys, it's MY main.

Lucario has...a nigh ungimpable recovery with Up B on many stages,

lololol

 

[DRaGZ]

So, in perfect conditions?

So this would be Brawl, running at 1 frame, and it basically becomes a turn based game(with each turn being a frame).

You know, in Olimar's perfect camping, his smashes are only 3rd in terms of importance. His first is Pikmin latch, but his most important non-projectile is...

HIS PIVOT GRAB

Try outprioritizing THAT. "Perfect camping" would be impossible otherwise, cause then CF could walk and jab every single pikmin flying at him. Its his GRABS that make him a fortress. Now that you have to avoid that, you can get caught in that uber priorty uair, or if you're flying lower, you eat an USmash. Become too predictable and you could have a pikmin chain in our face with its half-second hitbox. If you come in at the PERFECT angle with a high priority move, Olimar runs and pivot grabs, and you end up attacking a pikmin who is invincible and grabs you.

Y'know, R.O.B. circumvents this by just sh nairing because it basically goes through all of Olimar's Pikmin attacks (and it's fast and large enough to hit a running Olimar as he attempts the pivot.)

Or, y'know, if he's running away, R.O.B. will just laser and gyro you forever.

I truly don't understand this concept of "perfect camping". I've had Olimar players try to do it on me before, but they don't even get close. I truly just don't understand.

 

[Nitrix]

Diddy Kong gets my vote. If someone plays Diddy perfectly then no other character in the cast has a chance.

 

[Greenpoe]

Lucario, theoretically, can potentially be one of the absolute strongest characters in the game, while at the same time is one of the best damage-rackers, has laser priority on all his aura moves (minus sphere), a nigh ungimpable recovery with Up B on many stages, an amazing projectile with killing options, lingering hitboxes, etc.

Laser priority? But I've seen his forward/down smashes canceled out before.

 

[metaXzero]

Meta Knight. IDC.

/thread.

 

[Excellence]

Lucario, theoretically, can potentially be one of the absolute strongest characters in the game, while at the same time is one of the best damage-rackers, has laser priority on all his aura moves (minus sphere), a nigh ungimpable recovery with Up B on many stages, an amazing projectile with killing options, lingering hitboxes, etc.

My vote goes to Lucario.

I'd like to bring to your attention that anyone with a good projectile (Olimar, Fox, Falco) could easily handle Lucario because they'd never have to deal with any of his priority.

Right now Metaknight is the 'best' character.
MK outpreforms anyone, period. Now add along the same satistics with perfect conditions, MK will always be top, just better, or should I say the best.

Mk will always be the best, with human error or not.

Shut up. I'm not even thrilled enough to give you an explination to the multiple levels of 'wrong' your contending on.

Y'know, R.O.B. circumvents this by just sh nairing because it basically goes through all of Olimar's Pikmin attacks (and it's fast and large enough to hit a running Olimar as he attempts the pivot.)

Or, y'know, if he's running away, R.O.B. will just laser and gyro you forever.

I truly don't understand this concept of "perfect camping". I've had Olimar players try to do it on me before, but they don't even get close. I truly just don't understand.

You approach me to SH Nair and I'll hurl a Pikmin at you then run away and pivot grab. If you stand, then Nair, I'll runaway and pivot grab. If you're rising using Up B then I'll just runaway, shield, then probably FSmash you away during Nairs. For R.O.B.'s Nair to hit Olimar as he's running, Olimar would have to start running way too late or he's way to close to you in the first place. Remember, as soon as you jump, I run. You've got to jump and then go through that momentary start-up lag on Nair before your move actually manifests.

Olimar outcamps R.O.B. period. Gyros are not hard to avoid and can be blocked with Pikmin spam. Lasers get predictable, seriously. I hope you aren't on those R.O.B.s who lasers than immediately Gyros or vise-versa. R.O.B. is forced to approach Olimar and put himself out of his comfort zone. So if running away becomes too redundant because of your camping, then he can just camp back and force you start chasing him again.

The Olimars your playing probably need a little more practice because R.O.B. can't always be played like other characters, reguardless of what you call yourself doing. Either that or you know your opponents way too well and they're cripple against you from the start.

Diddy Kong gets my vote. If someone plays Diddy perfectly then no other character in the cast has a chance.

I would like to put out there that simply timing your Nairs well can grab Diddy's Bananas out of the air. I don't know how many times I've done that with Marth without even trying.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'd like to bring to your attention that anyone with a good projectile (Olimar, Fox, Falco) could easily handle Lucario because they'd never have to deal with any of his priority.



Shut up. I'm not even thrilled enough to give you an explination to the multiple levels of 'wrong' your contending on.



You approach me to SH Nair and I'll hurl a Pikmin at you then run away and pivot grab. If you stand, then Nair, I'll runaway and pivot grab. If you're rising using Up B then I'll just runaway, shield, then probably FSmash you away during Nairs. For R.O.B.'s Nair to hit Olimar as he's running, Olimar would have to start running way too late or he's way to close to you in the first place. Remember, as soon as you jump, I run. You've got to jump and then go through that momentary start-up lag on Nair before your move actually manifests.

Olimar outcamps R.O.B. period. Gyros are not hard to avoid and can be blocked with Pikmin spam. Lasers get predictable, seriously. I hope you aren't on those R.O.B.s who lasers than immediately Gyros or vise-versa. R.O.B. is forced to approach Olimar and put himself out of his comfort zone. So if running away becomes too redundant because of your camping, then he can just camp back and force you start chasing him again.

The Olimars your playing probably need a little more practice because R.O.B. can't always be played like other characters, reguardless of what you call yourself doing. Either that or you know your opponents way too well and they're cripple against you from the start.



I would like to put out there that simply timing your Nairs well can grab Diddy's Bananas out of the air. I don't know how many times I've done that with Marth without even trying.

The only point I will dispute with you is you saying "Olimar's outcamp R.O.B." Lol.

If we both decide to camp, all of my projectiles hit from a very long distance, yours you need to jump. I can hit your away, you can shield, so it's somewhat neutral there. I can ledgecamp easily, you can't. It doesn't matter if my lasers or gyros are predictable, your Pikmin are even more predictable as they're being tossed by side+B, and they are also easily dealt with. Plus, I can actually kill you with my projectiles. You can't.

 

[kr3wman]

No one would win because everyone would perfect shield everything.

IE : This thread is pointless.

 

[DRaGZ]

No one would win because everyone would perfect shield everything.

I think this whole line of discussion is useless, because no one is expecting anyone to play perfectly, primarily because the defensively focused nature of this game makes it so that with perfect gameplay, the first person to attack loses.

This is just like 3S. If everyone knew how to parry perfectly, the initial attacker will always lose. We know that this is not the case.

 

[Excellence]

The only point I will dispute with you is you saying "Olimar's outcamp R.O.B." Lol.

If we both decide to camp, all of my projectiles hit from a very long distance, yours you need to jump. I can hit your away, you can shield, so it's somewhat neutral there. I can ledgecamp easily, you can't. It doesn't matter if my lasers or gyros are predictable, your Pikmin are even more predictable as they're being tossed by side+B, and they are also easily dealt with. Plus, I can actually kill you with my projectiles. You can't.

Olimar doesn't outcamp R.O.B., are you serious? No one out camps Olimar, other than Wolf and that's a fact.

You've got some truth to what your saying, but you're not completely right. The reason Olimar jumps before hurling Pikmin is to make use of their different flight angles. If Pikmin land on top of R.O.B., you can forget it because you can't get them off without opening yourself up for an attack. When people start swatting Pikmin, they've made their first mistakes because I never have to stop throwing them and you'll eventually stop swatting or slip up. If the camp war never stops, count on a Purple Pikmin carrying surper armor to knock you out of bounds or stage spike you as you come up. Even if that doesn't kill you and it only hits you, it does give me time to run over and do what's necessary to get in a kill.

You may also want to think about how seeable (lol, see-able) Gyros are when they're flying across a stage. If the spam war was so intense that neither of us is willing to stop, I could just Whistle your Gyros and hurl through your lasers. You've got to charge one of your projectiles, I don't. It takes me 1.2 seconds to pluck 6 Pikmin, while it takes you 3 seconds to charge a full Gyro.

 

[DRaGZ]

Olimar doesn't outcamp R.O.B., are you serious? No one out camps Olimar, other than Wolf and that's a fact.

You've got some truth to what your saying, but you're not completely right. The reason Olimar jumps before hurling Pikmin is to make use of their different flight angles. If Pikmin land on top of R.O.B., you can forget it because you can't get them off without opening yourself up for an attack. When people start swatting Pikmin, they've made their first mistakes because I never have to stop throwing them and you'll eventually stop swatting or slip up. If the camp war never stops, count on a Purple Pikmin carrying surper armor to knock you out of bounds or stage spike you as you come up. Even if that doesn't kill you and it only hits you, it does give me time to run over and do what's necessary to get in a kill.

You may also want to think about how seeable (lol, see-able) Gyros are when they're flying across a stage. If the spam war was so intense that neither of us is willing to stop, I could just Whistle your Gyros and hurl through your lasers. You've got to charge one of your projectiles, I don't. It takes me 1.2 seconds to pluck 6 Pikmin, while it takes you 3 seconds to charge a full Gyro.

I don't need a full gyro, a gyro-pop is just fine.

And down-smash is too slow to get rid of Pikmin? o_O It's not like I'll be constantly d-smashing, I'll just d-smash when I've gotten too much.

 

[Excellence]

No one would win because everyone would perfect shield everything.

IE : This thread is pointless.

This is just a hypothetically thread, reguardless if it's impossible it still opens our minds to new play styles and possibly game changing metagames. People who post things like this are ruining a good topic which can lead to innovative ideas.

I think this whole line of discussion is useless, because no one is expecting anyone to play perfectly, primarily because the defensively focused nature of this game makes it so that with perfect gameplay, the first person to attack loses.

This is just like 3S. If everyone knew how to parry perfectly, the initial attacker will always lose. We know that this is not the case.

See the response above.

 

[Excellence]

I don't need a full gyro, a gyro-pop is just fine.

And down-smash is too slow to get rid of Pikmin? o_O It's not like I'll be constantly d-smashing, I'll just d-smash when I've gotten too much.

I'm not sure exactly how far a completely uncharged Gyro goes, but I'm pretty sure I can just hop over it as I'm tossing Pikmin.

It's not that it's too slow, it's just that it doesn't get rid of Pikmin that are attached to R.O.B's head. And I'm sure you know R.O.B.'s DSmash lasts a decent amount of time, if there are Pikmin attached to R.O.B.'s arms or lower, then they'll lag it and I may even be able to repluck Pikmin or punish it.

 

[DRaGZ]

This is just a hypothetically thread, reguardless if it's impossible it still opens our minds to new play styles and possibly game changing metagames. People who post things like this are ruining a good topic which can lead to innovative ideas.



See the response above.

But the underlying point of this thread is to see if anyone can beat Meta Knight at the "highest levels of play". I think Praxis has interpreted that as perfect gameplay, which is just humanly impossible.

And yes, this thread is useless. It just supposing what would happen if we played perfectly, but we can't base it on anything because that's beyond a skill-level anyone has achieved, thus any results thereafter are theoretical. There is no certainty as to what strategies and patterns would emerge at an infinitely good level of play, but I'm guessing it would degenerate into defend-and-respond tactics.

I'm not sure exactly how far a completely uncharged Gyro goes, but I'm pretty sure I can just hop over it as I'm tossing Pikmin.

It's not that it's too slow, it's just that it doesn't get rid of Pikmin that are attached to R.O.B's head. And I'm sure you know R.O.B.'s DSmash lasts a decent amount of time, if there are Pikmin attached to R.O.B.'s arms or lower, then they'll lag it and I may even be able to repluck Pikmin or punish it.

I would d-smash as you are getting more Pikmin.

 

[Excellence]

But the underlying point of this thread is to see if anyone can beat Meta Knight at the "highest levels of play". I think Praxis has interpreted that as perfect gameplay, which is just humanly impossible.

And yes, this thread is useless. It just supposing what would happen if we played perfectly, but we can't base it on anything because that's beyond a skill-level anyone has achieved, thus any results thereafter are theoretical. There is no certainty as to what strategies and patterns would emerge at an infinitely good level of play, but I'm guessing it would degenerate into defend-and-respond tactics.

I would d-smash as you are getting more Pikmin.

Something has already occured because of thinking like this. The Olimar Baords, led by Atomsk and Mew2King are considering Olimar vs Meta Knight 55:45. They're reasoning is very sound and there are a few videos up.

Would you have to kill the ones on your head before I repluck? That means you open yourself up first. If I REALLY felt in danger, which I doubt would ever happen, I'd call them back with a Whistle only to rehurl them.