Jake The Preacher
The Amateur Preacher
I remember your U throw turn around punch, man that move made my head explode
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~The Banana Hammock~ Ape Social!
- Thread starter SinisterB
- Start date
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Yo das racist
Hey guise
Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself. I wanted to focus on a single character in PM because it didn't exactly help me in Brawl to have 2 mains, but it didn't happen. So from now on, I'll second DK and start actually training him and not just using him in friendlies :V
I used him for the first time in tourney today, he didn't win me the sets I used him in but he did cover some of my less "interesting" matchups as an Ivy main. I got 5th/18, which is about what I do on average :V
I'm a French TO, Brawl/PM player and streamer wannabe who goes by the name of ¤TreK. I like spending time in the lab to find new technology, going for reads that involve saying to the opponent "you shouldn't have jumped brah", 30-stocking lvl9 cpus in order to learn the matchups, watching videos of people playing my characters and taking notes, getting feedback on videos featuring me, and losing to Charizard because he's just way too hype.
I'll have the first videos of my DK up soon =3
Any Skype group I should join ? :V
Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself. I wanted to focus on a single character in PM because it didn't exactly help me in Brawl to have 2 mains, but it didn't happen. So from now on, I'll second DK and start actually training him and not just using him in friendlies :V
I used him for the first time in tourney today, he didn't win me the sets I used him in but he did cover some of my less "interesting" matchups as an Ivy main. I got 5th/18, which is about what I do on average :V
I'm a French TO, Brawl/PM player and streamer wannabe who goes by the name of ¤TreK. I like spending time in the lab to find new technology, going for reads that involve saying to the opponent "you shouldn't have jumped brah", 30-stocking lvl9 cpus in order to learn the matchups, watching videos of people playing my characters and taking notes, getting feedback on videos featuring me, and losing to Charizard because he's just way too hype.
I'll have the first videos of my DK up soon =3
Any Skype group I should join ? :V
GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
Hey guys, I'm just stopping by to complain about DK a bit. He has some BS stuff about him that I hope gets addressed in the next patch. Now I'm not going to throw things out there barking for him to get nerfed cuz he shouldn't. He should just get tweaked to be a little less BS-ish.
Firstly, dat Jab. You beefed it up when it didn't need to. It combos and leads into grabs like nobodys business. It has incredible range for a Jab, where if he can't reach, he can do a quick Dtilt. How to change? Not sure, maybe reduce the range a little bit. I main Olimar and DK's Jab forces Olimar to be within a small area to be able to not get hit and get the grab.
DK's Grab range. This one is absurd. I'm fine with him having a large Grab box, as those giant ape arms should be able to grab far in front of him, but it extends all the back to his Butt. Cut that box off at his chest please.
DK's Fair is Bananas, the hitbox is enormous, it can linger, and it's crazy powerful, especially when used from a throw. It's also an incredibly safe edge guard (keeping the opponent from geting onto the stage from holding the ledge). It flows into Jab really well leaving little to no room for punishment, depending on if you L-cancel it properyly, or Jab once or twice, which leads into a Grab.
I get why you made it so he has more of a vertical recovery (Ness Yo-yo) but now he has virtually no problems going out after people. It seems like theres no risk on DKs end. Maybe reduce his horizontal recovery a bit for the trade? Not sure.
Firstly, dat Jab. You beefed it up when it didn't need to. It combos and leads into grabs like nobodys business. It has incredible range for a Jab, where if he can't reach, he can do a quick Dtilt. How to change? Not sure, maybe reduce the range a little bit. I main Olimar and DK's Jab forces Olimar to be within a small area to be able to not get hit and get the grab.
DK's Grab range. This one is absurd. I'm fine with him having a large Grab box, as those giant ape arms should be able to grab far in front of him, but it extends all the back to his Butt. Cut that box off at his chest please.
DK's Fair is Bananas, the hitbox is enormous, it can linger, and it's crazy powerful, especially when used from a throw. It's also an incredibly safe edge guard (keeping the opponent from geting onto the stage from holding the ledge). It flows into Jab really well leaving little to no room for punishment, depending on if you L-cancel it properyly, or Jab once or twice, which leads into a Grab.
I get why you made it so he has more of a vertical recovery (Ness Yo-yo) but now he has virtually no problems going out after people. It seems like theres no risk on DKs end. Maybe reduce his horizontal recovery a bit for the trade? Not sure.
POOB
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2013
- Messages
- 221
1. Jab has lots of endlag so you can shield it or crouch cancel it and punish it with ease. Sure its a good move, but not OP by any means.
2. DK is a grab based character, nerfing the only thing that makes him viable makes absolutely no sense. Also, every character can grab opponents behind them in a dash grab.
3. Fair is insanely slow annd ridiculously easy to anticipate/punish in neutral. If you get hit by a lot of fairs, you are simply getting outread/outplayed and props to the DK player.
As far as hanging on the ledge, EVERY character can easily punish the lack of a sweetspot, or hanging on the ledge past invincibility frames. It is also very unsafe on shield and only leads to jab if the opponent is too slow to punish. It has no frame advantage what so ever in that case.
4. Horizontal range the is only, yes ONLY, good thing about DK'S recovery. Nerfing that also makes no sense. It's really easy to hit DK out of his up b. and if you dont want him to edgeguard you that deep all you have to do is recover low cause he cant go down there due to his terrible vertical recovery. If he consistently hits you way off stage while you are recovering, that means he is just reading you like a book and you aren't adapting. That has nothing to do with DK.
DK is a mid tier character. If he was broken like you say, there would be a LOT more high level DK'S out there. There is a reason Eli and Strong Bad dropped him, and that reason is DK simply isn't an easy character to play at higher levels. Based on what you posted, you most likely need to work on your punish game and being less predictable.
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GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
I don't like the term nerfing when it comes to DKs grab. He can litterally be standing there and grab from his butt. I don't want to take much away from his grab game, but when he is standing near the ledge and I just get up behind him, he can grab from behind him.
It's not that I get hit by a lot of Nairs, but more that he can L-cancel it into a Jab grab combo really easily. This is at least against my Olimar (where this may just be a bad match up for me) who can't react or do anything quick enough to stop him.
I don't say that DK is broken. He just has some stuff that is really good. Thats not much of a bad thing, as he needs that stuff to compete against the higher tiers. The problem I may more have is that he can put me in situations where I cannot get out of them and then I get wasted. Sure, he reads me, but often the problem that I have is that he is has... say 6 options, as well as with me, but 4-5 of those 6 options will counter me.
I'll admit that I'm mostly venting, but you guys should really look at what else DK can do. He's not worth Dropping. I'm getting some recording equipment and I'll post some vids at some point showing some stuff that he can do that I haven't seen others like Strong Bad do. I should lose to the guy I fight because he's better at the game than me, but I just felt like I lose to some BS, some on DKs part, and some on Olimar's bugs part.
Speaking of DK's position in PM, what would you guys try to change in DK ?
I'd simply add the option to cancel DK's upB by pressing shield. That would add versatility to his recovery without giving it more distance or making it any safer. Except they'd have to fix ledge stalling first.
Or, I'd have cargo dthrow be a footstool. It would fit right into his tech chase and edgeguard game, and it's kind of sad that our lovely grappler has a useless throw.
I'd simply add the option to cancel DK's upB by pressing shield. That would add versatility to his recovery without giving it more distance or making it any safer. Except they'd have to fix ledge stalling first.
Or, I'd have cargo dthrow be a footstool. It would fit right into his tech chase and edgeguard game, and it's kind of sad that our lovely grappler has a useless throw.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
All I see is a bunch of johns and changes that would make an already mid tier character just become flat out unviable lol.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
What kind of a situation are you in where you get back grabbed repeatedly to the point of complaining? lol
If you are having problems with getting back grabbed, then I got some bad news for yeh. Your spacing must really be awful if your opponents intentionally do it to you. I would never use that as a sincere options against any of the top ten-ish in my region. Like, you didn't even complain about up+b oos which is ten times better than back grab.
As for your other complaints, I wouldn't even say the bulk of what you mentioned are even DK's strongest points. IMO, the one thing that keeps DK afloat in PM is how all of his moves come together. Not just his grab or fair, which admittedly are some of the best in the game, but his punish game in combination with his neutral game. He's a complete tank and each of his moves has a time and a place. He doesn't have to play as gimmicky as he did in Melee by bairing everything into oblivion, his Dtilt, Jab, and Nair work very well in alternation via use of crouch cancel. He can beat any character in neutral unless they have some kind of reliably spammable projectile which opens up for approaches (Mario's fireballs, Falco's Laser, ect.)
But to agree with you on one thing, DK's Jab is seriously something else. Jab grab is an actual combo, lol, and jab jab combos into kill against literally every character except maybe Weegee.
GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
I get back grabed when I get up from the edge, and numorus other times when I get behind him when he grabs and he gets me. I never said that he intentionally did it to me... Technically my spacing is bad, because he can get me where I didn't think he could. Sometimes I go there on purpose and most of the times it's a fluke.
I'm not here to complain about things that make him good. I'm complaining more about how things don't make sense for him. DK having a Back Grab doesn't make sense and I'm pretty sure its new to PM. I get Marths grab because its legacy and Ness/Mewtwo have back Grabs but thats acceptable since they are psychic.
I don't want to take away his best stuff. Up B oos is fine. Personally, I think his Jab is better than it should be. It was already really good, but now, he can slaughter characters that he was already good against even more so. If anything, he pushes other characters that were below him in the tier list even lower, while not raising himself up in the tier list.
I would more want him to have tools against higher tierd characters, than to take moves that are good against weaker characters and buff those so he can crush them harder. Is his Jab now better against spacies and fasties? probably not. How does it work against other guys? It crushes them.
Btw, you can Nair Marios fireballs as a great approach/defense. He has intagability on his Nair.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
I seriously can't believe this guy is still johning about DK
GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
So Johning is now pointing out BS attributes on a character? Look, the guy I regularly fight against should beat me, because he's better than me. I'm simply pointing out things that both he and I agree are BS.
1. His Grab box shouldn't extend so far behind him. It looks and feels ridiculous.
2. His Jab was already amazing. It didn't Need a Buff.
3. His Fair was more me stating how good it was. The only problem I have with it is that is safely links into jab if L-canceled, which then leads to a for sure grab. All I'd ask for is a little more end lag so it's punishable if shielded, since it's an incredible aerial, I didn't think it needed to be amazing as an approach against someone who shields it.
4. I honestly don't care much about his Vertical Up B recovery. It's fine how it is. I just thought it was interesting that they increased it without taking from something else.
So are people who complain about Diddy's Missfire Barrels also Johning?
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
Mario's Fireballs are good against DK because they can double up and fly at unpredictable angles which make for unreliable countermeasures. Nairing through them works sometimes, but suppose there are two or three coming at different angles and Mario is running in afterward. Fireballs slow you down in the air which throws off timing for L-cancel as well as fastfall, and can allow for a rebuttal from Mario. He can pull up his shield and wait for you to hit it, and if you do a low nair in anticipation then you might not get (all of) the fireballs. Yes, nair is gahlike, but it's an overrated approach at best. I use it to blast through maybe one projectile at a time, but only if the opponent is already committed to an attack right behind it. Point being that nairing puts you into a prolonged commitment whereas Mario is still technically in neutral.
Nairing/bairing fireballs isn't bad per se; it's an excellent option if one's opponent begins blasting fireballs when DK already has momentum, but it's only a situational approach you can do once in a while when the opponent doesn't see it coming or gets careless. Mario is one of the few characters who can 0-death DK, so being slowed down in the air is not a good place to be. If there is another fireball coming, you might have to shield or worse at an uncomfortable position. Point being that nair isn't as good as low-mid level players make it look. DK's approach game isn't half as good as his tank/range game. Getting to a distance where the opponent has to fend off DK's ground game because he's too close to continue projetile spam is much more valuable then dash dancing and nairing through them.
But back to the matters at hand:
My bad on that, I assumed too much from your post. I doubt you will find any DK player who would be upset by the removal of his back grab, and players who would have otherwise whiffed a grab shouldn't be rewarded by a bad grab attempt, even if your spacing was bad to begin with. Point taken.
I hate to break it to you but nothing in this game makes sense. Falco spins around in the air and if you touch his effing back you fly downward and can't come back up, let alone being hit by his feet. Hell, you don't even have to touch his feet. The hitbox extends outward so you can be kind of near them and get it. Point is that getting rid of things that don't 'make sense', if 'sense' is even definable in this context, would remove like half of the things in this game.
When you say good, do you mean Melee? It certainly wasn't too good in that game. And since we're on the subject of making sense, it wouldn't make much sense for DK's jab to not go the distance it can, given how big his arms are. As POOB said, it's totally CCable. DK's jab is excellent, but is it really too good? And as a side-note, I wouldn't consider it a polarized buff. Dk's Jab reset on fast-fallers is incredible, and jab jab is my go-to option against every fast faller when I am skeptical about grab or utilt/uair.
DK PROTIP: Reverse up + b after jab jab will kill spacies (and others) at very low percents when they are expecting an up attack. Just do a couple rounds of up airs after a jab sequence, conditioning your opponent to DI away after they get uppercutted, and they will hardcore DI offstage once you decide to deploy your frame three destruction. This is probably DK's best DI mix-up because of the fact that humans can't react to it.
As I already said, None of the things you listed are good in and of themselves. DK's range in combination with his weight and damage output make him a tank, not any particular move. If you played me instead of your buddy, you'd be complaining about Up+b sweetspots, dtilt, and fair spike instead of everything you listed in your post. If you want my advice, Predict the jab sequence and run up and crouch cancel. Free punish for you, ggs. DI away until about 55% (use common sense, please, this doesn't apply when you're offstage), and then DI up and slightly away from the stage until around 80-90% to avoid dying while still escaping combos. Fron that point he can still kill you because he is Donkey Kong (guaranteed KOs against every character which is why I love him), but he can't 0-death you. Other tips for Olimar:
-Semi-camp him until you have flowers. Get residual damage but make no commitment because he out-prioritizes and out-damages you until then.
-In doing so, try to avoid throwing them because DK doesn't mind that so much as other characters. Feel more than free to throw purples, however.
-If you get at least two reds or purples, ditch the rest. Whites are god awful against DK, and the others are nothing special. Purples and reds give you guaranteed star KOs against DK which are invaluable against a character that can live offstage until like 200 percent, not to mention the fact that Olimar can't reliably edgeguard DK.
-Take DK to a small stage like FOD or Yoshi's. I know it sounds scary, but this allows you to keep him within your grasp, he dies sooner, and he will spend more time trying to recover.
-On such stages, read his techs on platforms and upsmash.
-Uair combo him like he does to you.
-Gimp him by getting him offstage and doing nothing. After awhile, he'll begin to feel safe offstage and will begin recovering the same sort of way every time. Then, full hop (it has to be full) and meteor him. Put the meteor where you think he's going to go, not where he is, because he'll move and you'll hit his arms. He can't recover from that unless he's next to the wall. Flower red and purple meteors will ruin him at like every percent.
-Use a ton of nair, especially when you are waiting for flowers. Repetitive non-shffl'd nairs behind DK's shield (don't get back grabbed lol) can't be baired if they are tight enough.
I don't know much about Olimar so that's all I can say. Trust me that Olimar-DK is not lost. I got 4-stocked against a local smasher's Oli (one of his secondaries, no doubt) once he got a hold of dem purples and reds. Two purples makes him DK-esque.
Oracle
Smash Master
Went all DK at the weekly yesterday. Did pretty bad compared to normal, but to be fair I had to fight awestin early in losers. I was one hit away from taking the second game, but i mis spaced my suicide fair so it didn't spike and I died before he did. Also lost to a random lucas but the tv was laggy and some other stuff lol. Needless to say, I got some sweet combos and thats the only reason we play dk, so victory lol
GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
When I say DK's Jab was already good, I mean DK's 2.6 Jab. It was already really good, but now it pops them up better, allowing for easier combo's. Before it was really good at keeping someone away and can be used to get into combo's, but not it nearly gaurentees a Grab/Nair/Bair. I was just saying that it was amazing before, and it got a buff when we didn't think it was nessicary.
I also get Sweetspot Up'd, Dtilted and Fair spiked enough to want to complain about them, but I don't. I get it. I do have a problem with his Fair, because it has a surprisingly quick L-cancled recovery which links into Jab really well if shielded. I feel like it should be a smudge more punishable than it is in it's current state. It's an amazing move, and I don't think anyone would stop using it if was was tweaked a smudge. His Dtilt is so good, but I wouldn't dream of changing it.
Also, I'm not stating that they should remove everything that doesn't make sense. I'm in complete agreement with you. I was just talking about the back grab, which you agreed with.
POOB
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2013
- Messages
- 221
Fair on shield is a huge frame disadvantage stop saying it easily links into jab lol. You just need to work on your OOS game.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Had my first gif-worthy moment on stream a few days ago. Probably one of the jankiest combo enders I've ever done.
http://www.gfycat.com/AcclaimedBasicGalapagostortoise
http://www.gfycat.com/AcclaimedBasicGalapagostortoise
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Jake The Preacher
The Amateur Preacher
Here's an "Official" guide for some basic DK stuff. StrongBad has written one in the DK threads which is better than this one, but let me know what you guys think and what I left out. http://smashboards.com/guides/basic-dk.33/
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
I managed to combo a good Ganon player yesterday as DK. It was just short of a 0-death, but it's encouraging that I can see such improvement in a relatively short time 
I only wish I could have recorded it
I only wish I could have recorded it
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