The 3.5 Squirtle Matchup Thread

[Daftatt]

A lot of roster changes means that a lot of MUs from 3.0 have change dramatically, almost all changes are arguably in favor of squirtman, with offstage gimps being his bread and butter, the recovery nerfs are a breath of fresh water for the character.

Obviously I can't really definitively assess most of the MUs, since each of us have only fought probably a dozen or so (at max) truly great character mains. But there are some MUs that a lot of us can probably still agree on from 3.0 that didn't really change much. I'll keep this main post up to date with discussion summaries and we can perhaps run polls for each MU to get a better assessment.

here is a rough preliminary MU scale just to keep in mind...
TURTLE SOUP --> ONEROUS --> EVEN (AKA we can't agree) --> ROOM TO STYLE --> PERMA-SHADES

Spoiler

Also, for transparency of bias, here is my personal list, specific to my playstyle.

• WAIT WHAT? THEY KNOW THE MU?:
  
  
• UUUGH: , , , , , , ,
  
  
• MEH: , , , , , , , , , , ,
  
  
• OM NOM NOM: , , , , , , , , ,
  
  
• I FEEL BAD FOR THE OPPONENT: , , , ,

Not enough experience: , , , ,

: *PALM SWEATING INTENSIFIES* :

Edgeguard Roy by jumping above him and falling straight down with nair.

The closer you are the harder he hits, so try and bait out attacks then get in by punishing his endlag

Roy's crouch cancel is so...effective, which is a nightmare for Squirtle. [Roy] is the perfect combo weight to get juggled with uair, and he gets killed so early with bair.

:

:

:

: PUNCHING BAG... BUT DON'T LET THEM EDGEGUARD YOU:

DDD can edgeguard squirtle so well, waddle dees can gimp and dair can come down through waterfall. I suggest when recovering against DDD (also against any character that comes offstage to edgeguard you) to withdraw in, then jump and shoot them with watergun, and use your window of opportunity to waterfall back to the stage.

I find that inhale throws off Squirtle's spacing. DDD already out-ranges Squirtle, however the one thing that Squirtle has over DDD is a better neutral and a very slippery movement game. DDD is a very aerial character and one of the main uses of inhale is coming down with it as a landing mix-up in order to punish improper spacing. I've used inhale to outrange hydro-grabs and withdraws. I'm pretty sure with the adjustments to D-smash, inhale can also punish a mis-spaced hydro down smash. I'm pretty sure short hop bubble beats inhale, and I have a feeling that water gun is a pretty decent tool against DDD.

:

:

: STAGE DEPENDENT ... I MEAN OFFSTAGE DEPENDENT:

Good Falcos aren't that easy depending on the stage

:GETS EASIER, BUT NEVER GETS EASY:

Fox is tough until around 70% because you have to go for tight tech chases to rack on damage (wavedash into D-smash). After that though offstage conversions are a lot easier (also juggles can go forever, uair), and edgeguards on fox are almost silly easy (Dair stuff him). So the MU strategy is really about being restrained until later percentages or else fax gonna wreck ya.

tldr; don't be aggressive early on because fox is going to get way more out of the exchanges than squirtle can until fox is at juggling weight ~60. Getting that first 60 is all hard reads and hard work

When fox shines squirtle if you do not tech and hold away (assuming you have room to slide) squirtle will slide extremely fast to the other side of the stage and fox will not be able to follow up.

:

:

:

:

:

:

: LOOK AT ALL THESE WHIFFED PROJECTILES:

Link can be really easy if you go super agro against them and don't let them space out projectiles.

:

:

:

: DECADES OF SLAUGHTERING TURTLES COME DOWN TO THIS :

for ground game, you want to never let your moves be crouch cancelled or you're eating a dsmash. for this reason (at low percents) i found myself using dair to land behind and shield the dsmash, and then resetting to neutral. water gun and bubble into grabs are also very useful, because uthrow leads into quite a lot of %. ctilt is very useful for catching mario before he lands, but with the reduced hitbox im not so sure if this beats falling aerials. try catching poorly spaced or really obvious aerial approaches with WD Dsmash. dont commit to combos though, mario's dair/nair/uair are all very fast and good for escaping, so be wary of those.

More Mario Notes By Jamwa

:

 

[Daftatt]

:

: CAN BUCKET BUBBLE, GG KAPPA, DON'T JUMP INTO HIS MOVES AND YOU'RE SOLID:

if g&w is in the air his only defensive tool is dair, and if he is above you it's nearly guaranteed that he's going to use it so dont try to challenge it with uptilt or upair. getting at him from his front is usually the best bet.

More G&W MU notes from Shockbound here

Remember to come in at him from the air most often, G&W D-tilt will just wall out ground approach (maybe counter with grounded bubble). He escapes combos with up-B, then usually fast falls into some aerial trying to catch you on the way down, dodge this and grab, or if he lands on a platform platform poke with uair

:

:

:

:

:

: DESIGNED TO PUNISH YOUR GIMMICKS :

His spinner can jam up your ground game, his side-B takes your space, his D-smash stops your pressure, and he can wall you out in the air. He's near impossible to edgeguard and has great options against your recovery (Fly over then Bair, Dair trade, the spinner and that damn infinite fast aiming kill laser). Luckily he dies early, and the MU is straight forward build damage into guaranteed kill through a grab or punish at early percents. Check out this guide for kills and stage selection

: RIDLEY THINKS SQUIRTLE'S ADVANTAGE IN THIS MU IS TOO BIG :

For Samus, stay close enough that she can't fire projectiles safely (you can probably duck under missiles, not sure, try it?) and force her to play the movement game.

You can just dance around her while she shoots stuff at you, dodge this crap it's not hard, use it as an opening (usually come in from the air unless you know she won't D-tilt or D-smash) and start out with some easy up-throw u-tilt chainz into nairs into aquajets into oh wait it's over.

:IT'S ACTUALLY JUST ZELDA WITH A TOWEL ON HER HEAD, SO REFER TO THE ZELDA MU:

For Sheik, you have to confuse her with fast movement. She's kinda hard to space against, but if you make her do something dumb, Squirtle can get a fairly decent punish for it.

If you are spacing hard, keeping away from her and trying to bait out whiffs to punish, she is inevitably going to try and needle camp, just duck under them or Withdraw into her from the air, it still has armor enough to get through

she is at an excellent weight for up-throw up-tilt regrabs at the start of every stock. This early percentage can lead to early kills off the top (sheik doesn't have good answers to squirtle being below her, uair all day with squirtman), which are usually more reliable in this MU compared to edgeguarding her. But if you go deep enough offstage before she up-Bs you can probably gimp her, and of course wavedashing into an edgehog will net you more kills than it should against sheik, when she is recovering being on the ledge is an ideal position.

:

:

if the sonic is spamming his spin at you, putting out hitboxes is the best method to counteract this. retreating sh watergun and bubble are good as they lead into grab and are safe otherwise, wd dsmash is risky, as while it does catch sonic, if he fakes you out you're in enough lag that sonic can run up and punish you. do not rely on withdraw, only use it as a combo tool for tech chasing and hitting in the air.
If you're confident with squirtle 2 frame grab, pivot grabbing is an option, but very tight timing. its so worth it though.

More Sonic MU Notes by Jamwa

:

: WHY AM I GETTING HIT BY ONE MOVE SO DAMN MUCH?

When he shoulder bashes run towards him then shield it, your forward sliding momentum should counteract the sheild knockback allowing you to grab him during endlag, otherwise the hit on squirtle's shield pushes you far away and you'll have to wavedash OOS immediately to still land the grab.

This matchup being good for squirtle, and make no mistake it can be a great MU, is entirely dependent on your ability to shield wario's side-B "Shoulder Bash". Each wario player has preferred stage positioning for this move and if you watch closely you should be able to figure out their tells. Important note is that if wario side-Bs off a platform onto the ground he won't have endlag and is likely to d-tilt if you are just shy of the shoulder bash range.

When recovering from offstage go low low low, wario loves to shoulder bash offstage for edgeguarding, so DI everything up when getting hit offstage, side-B in towards the stage, save your jump, go really low beneath his possible shoulder bash trajectory, and then jump+up B and then HOLD ledge. Wario is now offstage and unless he did as short a shoulderbash as possible he is going to have to focus purely on getting back onstage at this point. So wait for him to recover and if he makes it onto the stage (as in you didn't edgehog him and he didn't lose a stock) you can do whatever you want to him (aquajet? u-smash?) now in his endlag.

A REALLY common shoulder-bash setup is D-throw then shoulder-bash. YOU NEED to just DI down, tech this, and roll in. OR you can DI up and mash jump so you don't actually hit the land, I recommend immediately air dodging out of this jump to further prevent followups.

More Wario MU Notes by Daftatt

:

: IN UR SPACE, TANKING UR MOVES, DON'T HYDROPLANE ME FOOL:

Yoshi outranges/Can just bash through Squirtle's attacks

: LIGHTNING KICK SUPER EFFECTIVE DUH, DO YOU EVEN POKEMON? :

Yes I know she's floaty and can be killed early (also squirtle is safe below her, uair always beats out dair), however her fair and bair SHFFL is the perfect height to wall out squirtle's short hop approach, and her Neutral-B/D-tilt/F-smash are potent anti-ground walls too. So squirtle has to be very cautious about going in, withdraw from the air is asking for a lightning kick, bubble is good but space it as far as possible, watergun is usually your best in. If they start Fair/Bair SHFFL walling try quickshifting then hydrograbbing the endlag but you gotta be on point.

:

:

AND NOW, QUOTES OF ETERNAL WISDOM...

Squirtle has some of the best movement in the game; forcing your opponent to challenge your movement with their movement gives you an edge in most matchups.

 

[dirtboy345]

This could turn out to be a great thread. My training partner who I play with more than anyone else mains Roy, now this may be a little biased because I am better than him but I don't have any matchup issues with Roy, especially on stages like PS2

 

[SpiderMad]

Good Falcos aren't that easy depending on the stage

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Roy and Link are two of the hardest MUs with Squirtle, IMO.
Squirtle is a good combo weight for both of them and as long as the player is on point, it's pretty difficult of a matchup to overcome.

I think Link is a lot harder of the two simply because if he gets a grab you already lost your stock. Dthrow into UpB is literally guaranteed due to Squirtle's Fall speed no matter how you DI it.
Either MU is still winnable, but you have to change your approaches and play safer than usual.

 

[PlateProp]

Daft your matchup list is ridiculous

Plz fix

 

[dirtboy345]

Roy and Link are two of the hardest MUs with Squirtle, IMO.
Squirtle is a good combo weight for both of them and as long as the player is on point, it's pretty difficult of a matchup to overcome.

I think Link is a lot harder of the two simply because if he gets a grab you already lost your stock. Dthrow into UpB is literally guaranteed due to Squirtle's Fall speed no matter how you DI it.
Either MU is still winnable, but you have to change your approaches and play safer than usual.

Link can be really easy if you go super agro against them and don't let them space out projectiles. Does anyone know about the Falcon matchup? It is easily my biggest problem.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Link can be really easy if you go super agro against them and don't let them space out projectiles. Does anyone know about the Falcon matchup? It is easily my biggest problem.

Not really, cause once you go super agro and go in, if you get grabbed once and you lost your stock, or at the very least are put in an unfavorable position where Link can edge guard you.

 

[dirtboy345]

Not really, cause once you go super agro and go in, if you get grabbed once and you lost your stock, or at the very least are put in an unfavorable position where Link can edge guard you.

Well Link's Dthrow has been nerfed so that should help a lot, even in 3.0.2 though I wouldn't get grabbed by link players that often due to outmaneuvering them

 

[Daftatt]

I think Link is a lot harder of the two simply because if he gets a grab you already lost your stock. Dthrow into UpB is literally guaranteed due to Squirtle's Fall speed no matter how you DI it.
Either MU is still winnable, but you have to change your approaches and play safer than usual.

I think getting grabbed by link is something that pretty much never happens to me, I dunno I just play very aware of hookshot and if he ever shoots it I dodge then punish. Not to mention that I practice powershielding a lot so link's projectile's don't bother me. I use boomerang to combo more than he does lol.

My reasoning for why roy is so good against squirtle, actually hard to edegguard (his up-b is so disjointed), and the closer squirtle is the harder roy hits. Getting in on roy in a pain in the butt and it's just one hit away from having to start all over again. I honestly feel roy walls squirtle a lot better than marth specifically because squirtle doesn't have to respect marth's space.

 

[dirtboy345]

I think getting grabbed by link is something that pretty much never happens to me, I dunno I just play very aware of hookshot and if he ever shoots it I dodge then punish. Not to mention that I practice powershielding a lot so link's projectile's don't bother me. I use boomerang to combo more than he does lol.

My reasoning for why roy is so good against squirtle, actually hard to edegguard (his up-b is so disjointed), and the closer squirtle is the harder roy hits. Getting in on roy in a pain in the butt and it's just one hit away from having to start all over again. I honestly feel roy walls squirtle a lot better than marth specifically because squirtle doesn't have to respect marth's space.

I do think FE characters definitely all have the matchup favor on Squirtle so I do agree with you. Nair can work on occasion against a recovering Roy, I prefer to make Roy recover high though and punish accordingly. Also like everyone I wait for bubble opportunities.

 

[PlateProp]

I think getting grabbed by link is something that pretty much never happens to me, I dunno I just play very aware of hookshot and if he ever shoots it I dodge then punish. Not to mention that I practice powershielding a lot so link's projectile's don't bother me. I use boomerang to combo more than he does lol.

My reasoning for why roy is so good against squirtle, actually hard to edegguard (his up-b is so disjointed), and the closer squirtle is the harder roy hits. Getting in on roy in a pain in the butt and it's just one hit away from having to start all over again. I honestly feel roy walls squirtle a lot better than marth specifically because squirtle doesn't have to respect marth's space.

I still say Marth is harder than Roy.

Also I don't get why Bowser and Yoshi are so low on your list. Now that bubble doesn't go through armor (pretty sure Yoshi's DJ still ignored them in 3.02 though), these matchups are actually pretty difficult. Yoshi also outranges/Can just bash through Squirtle's attacks

 

[dirtboy345]

• WAIT WHAT? THEY KNOW THE MU?:
• UUUGH: , , , ,
  
• MEH: , , , , , ,,, ,
  
• OM NOM NOM: , , , , , , , ,
  
• I FEEL BAD FOR THE OPPONENT: ,

Not enough experience: , ,

Here's what the matchups look like in my opinion, obviously I put in more thought on some than others. Big changes to Ike and Falcon which may be bias coming from my region but I really don't feel like those are good matchups

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Fox and Ness aren't in the UUUGH category. I'm surprised at that.

 

[Life]

Not really certain how people are having trouble with Roy. Granted, my local scene isn't super strong, but the only person outside the Melee PR who I haven't beaten fairly often is a Sheik, and I haven't played Squirtle against his Sheik since before the patch.

Edgeguard Roy by jumping above him and falling straight down with nair. Unless Roy is in a place where he can afford to vary the timing substantially, this'll prove hard for him to deal with. If you have a particularly hard read and are on the right stage for it, you can go ballsy and Withdraw into the side of the stage, but I would keep that trick to friendlies!

Unfortunately I played Zard against our Roy last weekly, so I don't have any recent Squirtle vs. Roy videos. I'll try to get the matchup next time our local rolls around, though!

I also forced a Link off his main with Squirtle. Our real best Link prefers Melee though.

I'm worried about space animals though.

 

[qwillinallthefish]

I feel that the Zelda MU is much easier than 50/50. I played an Zelda who was on point the entire time and 3 stocked her. She belongs in the OM NOM NOM section.

 

[Life]

I feel that the Zelda MU is much easier than 50/50. I played an Zelda who was on point the entire time and 3 stocked her. She belongs in the OM NOM NOM section.

Would like to point out that the Zelda rework means her meta basically has to start over. She might seem easy now, but I'm sure Zelda mains will figure out new things as time goes on.

Which gets down to a bit of a meta question: should matchup analyses be focused on the state of the matchup in the current meta (even one as rapidly shifting as the PM meta), or should they be forward-thinking (or, more cynically, speculative)?

 

[dirtboy345]

Would like to point out that the Zelda rework means her meta basically has to start over. She might seem easy now, but I'm sure Zelda mains will figure out new things as time goes on.

Which gets down to a bit of a meta question: should matchup analyses be focused on the state of the matchup in the current meta (even one as rapidly shifting as the PM meta), or should they be forward-thinking (or, more cynically, speculative)?

When I made my list it was mostly from 3.0.2 knowledge for obvious reasons, but I did move some stuff due to predictions, I'd say it's better to from a speculative side rather than a current one, otherwise the matchups can be seen as out of date really quickly.

 

[Daftatt]

Fox and Ness aren't in the UUUGH category. I'm surprised at that.

We were talking about that in squirtle squad chat earlier. Fox is tough until around 70% because you have to rely on tech chases to rack on damage reliably. After that though offstage conversions are a lot easier, and edgeguards on fox are almost silly easy. So the MU strategy is really about being restrained until later percentages or else fax gonna wreck ya.

Good Falcos aren't that easy depending on the stage

let's elaborate, What stages are good against falco... FoD is my goto usually, just because the shifting platforms let squirtle platform poke, and hopefully mess up falco if he tries to follow up, for instance falco Dairs squirtle into knockdown and squirtle slides underneath a half raised platform. Making the getaway like Marky Mark in the italian job.

two simply because if he gets a grab you already lost your stock. Dthrow into UpB is literally guaranteed due to Squirtle's Fall speed no matter how you DI it.

Is this true? Can we confirm or deconfirm this?

• I FEEL BAD FOR THE OPPONENT: ,

But DDD can edgeguard squirtle so well, waddle dees can gimp and dair can come down through waterfall. I suggest when recovering against DDD (also against any character that comes offstage to edgeguard you) to withdraw in, then jump and shoot them with watergun, and use your window of opportunity to waterfall back to the stage.

 

[Flyte27]

Hey Guys, new to the forums and relatively new to the game, was wondering how I should be playing against Sheik and Samus? I see some people here rating them as easy, but the friend I usually play against is much better/more experienced than me, so I find I can only take a match of him every now and then. Any tips?

 

[Life]

Hey Guys, new to the forums and relatively new to the game, was wondering how I should be playing against Sheik and Samus? I see some people here rating them as easy, but the friend I usually play against is much better/more experienced than me, so I find I can only take a match of him every now and then. Any tips?

For Sheik, you have to confuse her with fast movement. She's kinda hard to space against, but if you make her do something dumb, Squirtle can get a fairly decent punish for it.

For Samus, stay close enough that she can't fire projectiles safely (you can probably duck under missiles, not sure, try it?) and force her to play the movement game.

Squirtle has some of the best movement in the game; forcing your opponent to challenge your movement with their movement gives you an edge in most matchups.

 

[Flyte27]

For Sheik, you have to confuse her with fast movement. She's kinda hard to space against, but if you make her do something dumb, Squirtle can get a fairly decent punish for it.

For Samus, stay close enough that she can't fire projectiles safely (you can probably duck under missiles, not sure, try it?) and force her to play the movement game.

Squirtle has some of the best movement in the game; forcing your opponent to challenge your movement with their movement gives you an edge in most matchups.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks!

 

[Daftatt]

For Sheik, you have to confuse her with fast movement. She's kinda hard to space against, but if you make her do something dumb, Squirtle can get a fairly decent punish for it.

she is at an excellent weight for up-throw up-tilt regrabs at the start of every stock. This early percentage can lead to early kills off the top (sheik doesn't have good answers to squirtle being below her, uair all day with squirtman), which are usually more reliable in this MU compared to edgeguarding her. But if you go deep enough offstage before she up-Bs you can probably gimp her, and of course wavedashing into an edgehog will net you more kills than it should against sheik, when she is recovering being on the ledge is an ideal position.

While onstage if you can bait out dash attacks the endlag on those is a great opening, every time squirtle gets in on sheik he should be getting at least 30% damage on her IMO.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

But DDD can edgeguard squirtle so well, waddle dees can gimp and dair can come down through waterfall. I suggest when recovering against DDD (also against any character that comes offstage to edgeguard you) to withdraw in, then jump and shoot them with watergun, and use your window of opportunity to waterfall back to the stage.

As a user of both characters, the DDD vs Squirtle matchup is relatively even although I slightly prefer DDD due to inhale being awesome and restricting Squirtle's movement pretty well and cause DDD is one of the best edge-guarders in the game.

 

[Shockbound]

Hey there Daft, I'm the Game & Watch from last night. I've got some more stuff about the Squirtle/G&W matchup:

Recent changes to Oil Panic (Down-B, "the bucket") have made it so that any projectile it absorbs gives 12% each. This makes the matchup really scary since the two Squirtle moves that G&W can bucket (Bubblebeam and Water Gun) fire a rapid series of projectiles that fill up the bucket immediately. This means that his bucket will deal a grand total of 36% and will do knockback greater than that of his 9 hammer, enough to KO at 0/10/30% (on small/medium/large stages). If G&W manages to catch either of those, he's pretty much already taken one of Squirtle's stocks.

A full bucket spill has enormous disjoint that spans two or three character-lengths in front of him, then half a character length below the ground (it sort of travels in an arc). This allows G&W to get a free kill if he catches Squirtle using Waterfall to get back to ledge since it can safely be used at a range to avoid the hitbox whilst completely covering the space that Squirtle's grab box would need to occupy to make it back. The angle sends upwards and away, so even with good DI, Squirtle is close enough to the blast zone to get bopped regardless of percentage in most situations.

The most reasonable course of action to take in Squirtle's position would be to try to bait out Oil Panic before G&W gets the chance to use it to guarantee a kill. This can prove very dangerous, since a full Oil Panic can outrange everything that Squirtle has... everything except for Water Gun, that is. Squirtle no longer has to worry about Water Gun getting bucketed anymore since the bucket is already full. In many cases, if G&W sees Squirtle using Water Gun he'll get excited and pull out the move that lets him punish Squirtle for using that move, but this happens to be the same move that releases his newly filled bucket. Squirtle is far enough away to avoid getting hit by it thanks to Water Gun's range, and now the punish that G&W had tucked away for later use is gone. This also has the benefit of throwing the person playing G&W off of their game in disbelief of what they just did, weakening them mentally for the next minute or so. They will not likely make the same mistake during the same match, so Squirtle has to not make the mistake of giving a bucket to G&W again.

Against more collected G&Ws, who will just take the hits from Water Gun and return the favor with Chef, Squirtle has the option to approach by aiming for the top of his head. This carries some risk as compared to using Water Gun, which has no risk. This is most effective when G&W is either flipping out Mini-Meats™ or stuck in the middle of a D-Tilt, but Squirtle must make sure not to make the mistake of using grounded Bubblebeam if G&W has a full bucket, since he will be tempted to whip out his bucket without thinking (for the same reason he gets messed up by Water Gun) and might accidentally spill it on the poor Pokemon. Instead, if Squirtle approaches with an aerial Bubblebeam, then G&W will be tempted to pull out his bucket yet again. This time Squirtle is in just the right spot to not get hit by Oil Panic, so if G&W does mess up and spill it then Squirtle will be in the clear. Squirtle can then use the normal follow ups that come from aerial Bubblebeam.

The most experienced of G&Ws will opt to not use the bucket until a kill is already guaranteed (e.g. punishing Waterfall recovery) or will use it to punish Squirtle if he gets approached from the front while in the air since his only other defensive option in front of him would be F-Air. It could take a very long time for the bucket to come out again, since anything in G&W's bucket will stay with him even when he dies. He might fill it on the first stock and wait to use it until the last, which could be long enough for Squirtle to forget that he still has this. So long as G&W holds these bucket charges, he is at an enormous advantage due to being able to keep Squirtle at bay with such a powerful option at his disposal, especially since it covers his massive weaknesses while in the air. He can B reverse the same bucket repeatedly, so the massive hitbox effectively covers both his front and back.

However, all G&Ws hate to see a bucket go the entire match without being used, so if he does end up holding a bucket until the very last stock, he will be prone to making a lot more mistakes with it by emptying it in a desperate attempt to get a kill. If he wastes it it can't punished immediately, but it removes a powerful option for him later. If he got used to having this with him for the entire match then he will be significantly weaker from the front, though this is only relative to the strength he had before losing it. There is a slight chance he could think he still has it and will try to whip out an empty bucket. What's most likely is that he will act as if he still has his bucket option and will still use it to threaten Squirtle. In reality, G&W is a lot weaker than what he boasts and Squirtle can call his bluff if it's clear that G&W's bucket is empty.

It's unlikely that G&W will hold onto a full bucket for very long, though. Whipping out the bucket provides a stall that is vital to his recovery and using it will often cause him to inadvertently empty it, especially when he reaches higher percents because he'll be mashing Down-B to make sure he'll stop soaring as soon as he regains control. The bucket is only emptied when B gets double-tapped, so the likelihood of an accidental spill increases as G&W becomes more frantic. There's an audio cue when G&W empties his bucket that Squirtle should be listening for in case this happens while off-camera, which is a short beep, a short pause, then another short beep that is immediately followed by a longer beep. [beep... beep-beeeeup]

TL:DR
bucket is scary but don't be scared G&W is just a big bully
he has 5 turtle friends but apparently squirtle isn't good enough for him

 

[Daftatt]

As a user of both characters, the DDD vs Squirtle matchup is relatively even although I slightly prefer DDD due to inhale being awesome and restricting Squirtle's movement pretty well and cause DDD is one of the best edge-guarders in the game.

can you elaborate on the uses of inhale against squirtle?

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Mainly, I find that inhale throws off Squirtle's spacing. DDD already out-ranges Squirtle, however the one thing that Squirtle has over DDD is a better neutral and a very slippery movement game. DDD is a very aerial character and one of the main uses of inhale is coming down with it as a landing mix-up in order to punish improper spacing. I've used inhale to outrange hydro-grabs and withdraws. I'm pretty sure with the adjustments to D-smash, inhale can also punish a mis-spaced hydro down smash. I'm pretty sure short hop bubble beats inhale, and I have a feeling that water gun is a pretty decent tool against DDD.

Not all of this is accurate, as some of this is theory-crafting. Just my thoughts.

 

[Jamwa]

Ok so letsa go with mario

I'll start with the 1st thing every1's gotta get around; fireballs. i hate these
good thing squirtle can deal with them.
You can use ctilt if you're close enough to punish or avoid mario's follow up aerial by quickly ducking under.
you can contest the fireballs with watergun. this is tricky, as you have a bit more lag than mario. what you should aim to do is put out one fireball with one of the water streams, and then hit mario with one of the other 2.
my favrit thing to to is sling-jump bair the fireballs. if spaced correctly, bair will eat the fireballs and continue on to hit mario.
of course, there's other ways to deal with fireball depending on positioning/spacing, but this is what i found i used to most in the neutral. just try not to fall into your shield. a squirtle stuck in shield is the worst. WD OoS if you find yourself being approached, or Waterfall OoS any approaching aerials before mario can follow up. i say before he can follow up, because if mario doesnt go for a quick move as he lands the waterfall should work, but if he jabs or something be ready to crouch cancel.

mario's aerials all have a bunch of priority, so spacing your bair/fair/uair is key to this matchup. nair is quite risky but works well if you read the opponent. mario's dair seems to just beat most of our options because it's disjoint or something OP af, but uair should beat this move if you find your opponent resorting to this.

for ground game, you want to never let your moves be crouch cancelled or you're eating a dsmash. for this reason (at low percents) i found myself using dair to land behind and shield the dsmash, and then resetting to neutral. water gun and bubble into grabs are also very useful, because uthrow leads into quite a lot of %. ctilt is very useful for catching mario before he lands, but with the reduced hitbox im not so sure if this beats falling aerials. try catching poorly spaced or really obvious aerial approaches with WD Dsmash. dont commit to combos though, mario's dair/nair/uair are all very fast and good for escaping, so be wary of those.

gimping mario is ez pz, you basically want to watergun him if he's far off the stage when he's using down-b, follow up with an aerial if possible to confirm the gimp, waterfall back to the ledge and bair his up-b with your invuln frames if he's still there. You gotta use those invuln frames though if you want to be consistent.
Bonus points though if you watergun mario out of his down-b, only for the player to continue spamming the move and just drop.
Nair works a charm as well if you need to be quicker and mario is close to the ledge, the timing is just a bit more tight than using the ledge invulnerability.
A well spaced bubble on the ledge should hit mario before he can sweet spot though, so using aerial bubble before you land is something you must be able to do. Take mario to stages where he cant wall-jump, such as skyworld or lylat or battlefield. Skyworld is good because he can just mess up his recovery. squirtle doesnt need the walls so much anymore as his wall-cling was super nerfed (rip double double jump).

Cape makes it easy to gimp squirtle, so you better sweet spot

tl;dr: slingjump, watergun, bubble

I think this MU is 55:45 in mario's favour, so pretty much even.

now for sanic

I've played a bunch of games against a very gewd sonic in 3.02, but im not so sure of how good sonic is in this new patch.

In this matchup, the only time you can use withdraw to challenge spin is before 12%. after that, sonic will either outright beat you or trade (which is bad for us). this matchup is basically WATER GUN. it's a very reliable move as it shuts down sonics movement due to the long lasting x3 hitboxes it puts out. Bubble is also very handy in this MU, as you can also punish spin with it.

The main issue in this MU is spacing and zoning correctly. if sonic gets in on squirtle, expect a lot of spinning cutting noises as you get hit an incomprehensible amount of times. you want to DI down and away usually, with an emphasis on teching whenever you can. teching is the best way to get off mr sonic's wild ride. once you get used to the spinny cutty noises you should be fine, the matchup just seems overwhelming the first few times.
Be ready for sonic's FAIR!!!! if he gets you offstage, and jumps to follow you, waiting out his fair is the safest option. im not sure if uair can actually beat fair if both players space correctly, but that's also an option if you're confident.
there's a lot of gimmicks you have to adjust to when playing against sonic, as DI-ing down and away is not always correct, but that comes with MU experience and is hard to explain every situation in a write-up.

Bubble for gimps, watergun (or an aerial if you're in range) to stop spin-jumps back on stage. contest sonic's dair with uair, use the disjointed part of the tail. utilt/uthrow combos from hydrograb are amazing. YOU HAVE TO SDI HIS UAIR VERY GOOD, it is harder to SDI than fox's uair, but there's a bigger timing inbetween hits. best method of contesting sonic when he's above you is to fast fall and fair/bair from the sides or time nair amazingly well. use watergun/bubble b-reversals to mix up your momentum.

once again, just get good at spacing and zoning sonic, as the other facets of this MU are very simple (apart from gimmicks). combos are pretty simple, and whilst gimping is kind of difficult, you can become very consistent at it when sonic is in certain positions.

if the sonic is spamming his spin at you, putting out hitboxes is the best method to counteract this. retreating sh watergun and bubble are good as they lead into grab and are safe otherwise, wd dsmash is risky, as while it does catch sonic, if he fakes you out you're in enough lag that sonic can run up and punish you. do not rely on withdraw, only use it as a combo tool for tech chasing and hitting in the air.
If you're confident with squirtle 2 frame grab, pivot grabbing is an option, but very tight timing. its so worth it though.

3.02 i'd say this was even (50:50) due to sonic's disjoints giving him an anit-approach and combo edge, but most disjoints have been nerfed, as well as some small frame data, hitbox things.
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-5-changelist

tl;dr: uthrow, watergun, bubble

55:45 towards squirtle, but it could be even worse/better for sonic, i dont know how much the nerfs will affect his strengths in this matchup.

 

[Daftatt]

Okay, I have a new MU to add input on.

: This matchup being good for squirtle, and make no mistake it can be a great MU, is entirely dependent on your ability to shield wario's side-B "Shoulder Bash". Each wario player has preferred stage positioning for this move and if you watch closely you should be able to figure out their tells. Important note is that if wario side-Bs off a platform onto the ground he won't have endlag and is likely to d-tilt if you are just shy of the shoulder bash range.

When you shield this move it's going to knock you way the hell away, you have to wavedash out of shield immediately towards wario, who will be in endlag for quite a while, and grab him. This is a guaranteed grab punish but you have to wavedash OOS crisply and consistently.

As a squirtle when in pressure you may feel inclined to d-tilt a lot, DON'T in this matchup. Wario is going to D-tilt WAY more than you up close (likely) and when/if he does you just need to shield grab it. Don't d-tilt/f-tilt or any of your anti-pressure moves (not even jab), wario is going to CC you and do naughty things.

When recovering from offstage go low low low, wario loves to shoulder bash offstage for edgeguarding, so DI everything up when getting hit offstage, side-B in towards the stage, save your jump, go really low beneath his possible shoulder bash trajectory, and then jump+up B and then HOLD ledge. Wario is now offstage and unless he did as short a shoulderbash as possible he is going to have to focus purely on getting back onstage at this point. So wait for him to recover and if he makes it onto the stage (as in you didn't edgehog him and he didn't lose a stock) you can do whatever you want to him (aquajet? u-smash?) now in his endlag.

Beware of wario going for Dair on edgeguards, is this case you are going to want to fake going low, then use your jump early and waterfall straight onto the stage, aim for wario when you do this of course.

Bubble is an excellent suppression tool against his shoulder bash, although like I said earlier it's probably best if you just bait it out and shield it then get a grab. But for assuring your movement and approaches are safe bubble is what you should rely on. Since squirtle has really tiny hitboxes you'll be trading almost always (unless you are doing spacing/crossups with bair) with a shoulder-bash (which is BAD, trading with this move is always a losing trade). Watergun spacing CAN work, but beware of just shooting shoulder-bash's hitbox because that will just go right through watergun.

When Wario is recovering holding the ledge is always your best bet, his recovery is very susceptible to being edgehogged, but if you want a more honorable but also reliable strategy I suggest slingjump bair offstage, you'll have to be smart on which aerial to use after the first Bair in order to secure the edgeguard but another Bair or Nair are usually what you'll be picking.

A REALLY common shoulder-bash setup is D-throw then shoulder-bash. YOU NEED to just DI down, tech this, and roll in. OR you can DI up and mash jump so you don't actually hit the land, I recommend immediately air dodging out of this jump to further prevent followups.

Watch out for Wario's Uair, Dair (squirtle's one and only move to attack below himself in the air) is most likely to trade with it, and that's a terrible trade.

For kill moves I suggest U-smash of course, it kills wario most times around 100%, and if you can reverse hydroplane U-smash (RHUS) into him, being charged, you'll get kills even earlier. Onstage wario is not wise to try and Dair squirtle, Up-smash/Up-air should be your goto antiair options. Up-tilt is meh, the standard up-throw up-tilt early percentage pile on is unreliable since wario can jump out and has good anti-pressure aerials.

 

[MACKU]

I would love to hear a bit about Lucario and how to handle him. I know a lot of my issues presently are related to matchup knowledge and the fact that I'm not super familiar with Lucario, but I've been bodied by one at a few local tournaments consecutively, so any insight would be awesome.

 

[Daftatt]

I would love to hear a bit about Lucario and how to handle him. I know a lot of my issues presently are related to matchup knowledge and the fact that I'm not super familiar with Lucario, but I've been bodied by one at a few local tournaments consecutively, so any insight would be awesome.

I've always used my fundamentals in squirtle against lucario.

quickshifting to bait out whiffs, then hydrograb. wavedash tech-chase.

Shorthop slingjump bair crossups, shorthop slingjump b-turnaround bubble crossups. Be weary of the slingjump nair crossup if the lucario is sly he can just command grab you.

Edeguarding is tricky but I reccomend waiting by the ledge for him to get close while recovering, then wavedash to the ledge and get invincibility, read if he is going to ledge or onstage and try and nair him. (assuming you didn't convert into a slingjump aerial for an offstage hit)

 

[ChiePet]

Curious; what IS the Roy vs Squirtle MU? what does Roy have that makes Squirtle hate his life??

 

[Life]

Curious; what IS the Roy vs Squirtle MU? what does Roy have that makes Squirtle hate his life??

I think it's just that Squirtle doesn't really have the range on many of his attacks to hit Roy without putting himself in sweetspot danger.

I still personally think Marth is a lot harder, but eh.

 

[MACKU]

I've always used my fundamentals in squirtle against lucario.

quickshifting to bait out whiffs, then hydrograb. wavedash tech-chase.

Shorthop slingjump bair crossups, shorthop slingjump b-turnaround bubble crossups. Be weary of the slingjump nair crossup if the lucario is sly he can just command grab you.

Edeguarding is tricky but I reccomend waiting by the ledge for him to get close while recovering, then wavedash to the ledge and get invincibility, read if he is going to ledge or onstage and try and nair him. (assuming you didn't convert into a slingjump aerial for an offstage hit)

I appreciate this. This post, coupled with some Lucarios telling me to really focus on my neutral because Lucario has poor approaches, resulted in me beating a Lucario who has given me consistent trouble at my local. Thanks so much!

 

[MACKU]

Does anyone want to talk a little about the Falco matchup? There seems to be at least a little discrepancy in this thread as to how easy he is to handle. What should my mindset be, and are there any good moves or bread and butter combos that I should be reaching for when going up against Falco or another spacie?

 

[Life]

Last good spacy player I fought, I had trouble actually hitting him with anything because we were both playing so movement-heavy.

Note that Squirtle can duck under sloppy Falco lasers (he might be able to shoot them low enough, not 100% sure). And like most versus-Falco matchups, getting him offstage ASAP is pretty good.

 

[MACKU]

Last good spacy player I fought, I had trouble actually hitting him with anything because we were both playing so movement-heavy.

Note that Squirtle can duck under sloppy Falco lasers (he might be able to shoot them low enough, not 100% sure). And like most versus-Falco matchups, getting him offstage ASAP is pretty good.

Thanks for the prompt reply. Getting him offstage has been pretty important, though I find that going out for a gimp feels risky, especially with Falco, as his side-b is a spike if I don't get to him first. Do I just need to practice more? I've thought maybe bubble could be a decent gimp offstage

 

[Life]

Thanks for the prompt reply. Getting him offstage has been pretty important, though I find that going out for a gimp feels risky, especially with Falco, as his side-b is a spike if I don't get to him first. Do I just need to practice more? I've thought maybe bubble could be a decent gimp offstage

You actually don't need to get super fancy to gimp Falco AFAIK.

Bubble them from the stage until you know they're able to get around it. Grounded Bubble to ledgehog is *probably* a guaranteed kill on Falco (again don't quote me but I think he falls low enough to force upB) and if it isn't then you can use a weak aerial like weak nair or bair to secure the kill instead.

Once they stop losing to that, start threatening whatever they do to get around it. If he goes high, you have a couple of options to cover that: aerials, dsmash, fsmash, throws, and more, all depending on how confident you are in your ability to react quickly and accurately. If they're able to sweetspot under your Bubble, they lose to edgehog.

As for going offstage, it really depends on how you get there. If you're in the middle of comboing him and it happens to take you fluidly offstage, bair and nair are good enders. Get to the ledge ASAP so you have some invincibility and another double jump to work with, probably. (This may involve fast falling. Don't be afraid to.) But don't overextend for the sake of it, or he'll end up edgeguarding you.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Last good spacy player I fought, I had trouble actually hitting him with anything because we were both playing so movement-heavy.

Note that Squirtle can duck under sloppy Falco lasers (he might be able to shoot them low enough, not 100% sure). And like most versus-Falco matchups, getting him offstage ASAP is pretty good.

Falco can shoot his lasers low enough, but I dunno how consistent he can be with that. I personally feel like this is a more difficult match-up as of 3.5. The loss of the disjoint on Squirt's uptilt makes Falco's dair a much safer approach, and Squirtman gets pillared all day. Plus, with the withdraw nerfs, it's harder to punish unsafe lasers.

Far from unwinnable though; I'm almost tempted to say it's about even, but I don't have enough experience with good Falcos. You should be able to duck under lasers most of the time and foxtrot/wavedash to advance. Get him off stage and he's donezo. Falco's side-b isn't really much to worry about as Squirt's bair will beat it every time. Nair trades with his up-b effectively as well.

 

[Swooty]

I feel like ZSS is a pretty easy matchup. Her neutral b is super punishable and can be armored through, I believe Squirtle can crouch below her fsmash as well. Edgeguarding is easy as it only requires you to drop off the stage and use nair. You can bait her out easy with your mobility and force her to make a punishable decision. I played Turbogillman, a very solid player. We went to last stock. He immediately switched to peach and 3-stocked me.