Tentative Changes for Corrin

[Methacrylate]

I made this post as a channel on the Corrin Discord as well but I figured I would post it here as well. I have looked through all the Corrin footage I could find as well as discussions with prominent Corrin mains in smash 4 who have played the demo to make the following list.

Confirmed Corrin Changes
Jab3: Changed from a stab to a slash animation.
Fair: There is 2 more frames of start up before the hitbox is active.
DFS: The stun duration is reduced and the angle of knockback is lower. This combined with balloon knockback prevent DL as well as Bair follow ups to the stun. Only DFB confirms from DFS now. Full charge DFB does not confirm.
DL: No longer causes Corrin's hitbox to shift up when pinning the ground, lowering Corrin's hurtbox closer to the ground. The move can be canceled by tapping down on the control stick.
Kicks: Distance the kick travels is reduced and during the trajectory Corrin gradually falls to the ground.
Draconic Ascent: Forward momentum at the end of the move is lost and thus reducing recovery distance.
Pummel: No longer pummels with the hilt of the sword but rather a kneekick, faster but reduced damage.
Other: High knockback voice clips are now used in the game.

Obviously these have been widely noted in other threads and on wikipedia. Nothing here is really different from those sources. Its here to just provide a one stop shop of changes mostly and that is it.

Speculated Corrin Changes
Uair: Kill potential increased, possibly back to pre-patch Smash 4 Corrin.
Uthrow: Kill potential lessened due to rage changes.
Insta-pin: Corrin's lower pinned position results in IP having reduced range.
Dragon Lunge: The length of the lance is longer allowing for longer ranged pins.
Counter Surge: Increased FAF on successful counter.

These are changes notable smash 4 corrin mains have made regarding Corrin in Ultimate and while some of these really look apparent such as Fair start up, I will leave these in the speculated section until there is more substantial evidence to prove the claims. More than it feels this way or looks that way.

Corrin Tentative Base Damage
Jab1: 2 - 2
Jab2: 2 - 2
Jab3:
Rapid Jab: 0.5 - 0.9
Rapid Jab (final): 3.2 - 3

Dash Attack (multihits): 1.6 - 2
Dash Attack (final): 2.5 - 3
Ftilt: 9.1 - 10.5
Utilt: 9.4 - 9
Dtilt: 7.9 - 7.5

Fsmash (charge): 0.4 - 0.5
Fsmash (Early): 10.5/9.5 - 12/11
Fsmash: 10.6/14.9 - 12/15.2 (angled up does not change damage)
Fsmash (late): -/13.8 - 12/16.5
Usmash: 8.75/13.3 - 10/15

Fthrow: 6.1 - 7
Uthrow: 10 - 9.5
Dthrow: 10 - 9.5

Nair: 6.25 - 7
Fair: 7.9 - 7.5
Bair: 11.5 - 11
Bair (late): 10.1 - 9
Uair: 9.5 - 9
Dair (multihits): 2 -2
Dair (landing): 2.7 - 3

DFS (no charge): 3.1 - 4
DFS (full charge): 10.5 - 8
DFB (no charge): 9.8 - 10
DFB (full charge): 17.5 - 20

DL (aerial): 7.3 - 8
DL (special hop): 6.5/9.9 - 7/15
Forward Kick: 12.5 - 12
Back Kick (early): 3.75 - 5
Back Kick: 12.5 - 12


Counter Surge: 8.75 - 8 (1.2x multiplier for both games)
Draconic Ascent (first hit): 3.6 - 4.5
Draconic Ascent (middle hits): 1.2 - 1
Draconic Ascent (final): 2.75 - 3

Pummel: 1.4 - 3
Ledge Attack: 7.9 - 7

These numbers are found using the 1v1 matches only. The 1.2 damage multiplier is calculated out to compare to the Smash 4 numbers (second number).
So the format is: Ultimate % - Smash4 %

Note: While most of the numbers are less than the Smash 4 counterparts, this only applies in the absence of the 1.2 multiplier e.g. matches with more than two players. With the multiplier, much of Corrin's damage in 1v1 matches is equivalent to Smash 4 with some moves receiving slight damage changes. In this way the multiplier does not really give Corrin more damage in 1v1 scenarios.

Some moves are not here yet that is because I have not had footage of them actually connecting. I try to find footage where I can see the past 9 moves to account for stale moves and also revert the short hop penalty damage reduction.

If you find out anything new feel free to message me or find me in the Corrin discord.

 

[Methacrylate]

People have been saying that rage starts right when your character starts to smoke (120%). This is in contrast to smash 4 where rage starts at 35% but smoking does not start until 100%. So I did look through the footage for places where this statement can be confirmed and found this exchange:

Fair = 9.4% (Corrin at 109%)
Fair = 9.5% (Corrin at 0%)

Corrin lands a Fair on Pit then dies to an Usmash. On spawn, Corrin strikes Pit with another Fair. If this was Smash 4, we would expect the first Fair to deal more damage due to being in rage; however, what we see is that the hit after the respawn actually deals more damage. The two strikes give remarkable similar damage and as such if rage does start before the smoking effect at 120% then its likely negligible meaning rage and smoking are at the same percent like people have been claiming.

This exchange might also hint that the freshness bonus to damage is smaller than in Smash 4, down from 5% to 1%. This is not the only exchange I have found that hint the freshness bonus is 1%. Happened several times over my watching.

In addition to rage, I was interested in possibly looking into the scaling of stale moves but the numbers I was getting were not telling a consistent story. So below are two examples and they make the assumption that the damage modifier for short hop penalty and stale moves are both simply multiplied to the base damage.

Uair = 10.5%
Uair (short hop) = 8.1%
--- This would be 10.5 x 0.85 x (1 - y) where y is our staleness reduction factor. Here y = 0.09. This is equivalent to Melee's reduction factor.

Fair = 9.4%
Fair = 8.2%
--- This would be 9.4 x (1 - y) so y = 0.12. This is larger than Brawl which had the largest reduction factor of 0.1

There are more complex examples as well in the data however, those would lead to assumptions on the reduction value at other positions in the queue. If you assume that those are similar to past games, then the initial staleness factor will be somewhere between 0.09 and 0.12. More of the complex examples do yield a value around 0.12 than 0.09 however so I think its safe to bet on staleness being larger in this game than all past iterations of smash.

 

[Methacrylate]

Meshima on twitter made a list of frame data changes in the demo versus smash 4. You can his spreadsheet here:
https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1023292531084152832?s=19

I will cover the Corrin specific information below.

Dash Attack: FAF 47 (56 in smash 4)
Foward Roll: FAF 30 (31)
Backward Roll: FAF 35 (31)
Standing Grab: FAF 37 (31)
Dash Grab: FAF 45 (38), Hitbox 10-11 (8-9)
Fair: Landing Lag 8 (14), Hitbox 9-11 (7-10)
Nair: Landing Lag 10 (13)
Bair: Landing Lag 8 (14)
Uair: Landing Lag 10 (15)

I have seen a lot of footage of Dash Attack -> Rapid Jab connecting near 0% and perhaps this is true now because of the FAF decrease. The slower backward roll is now universal as all characters now have slower backward rolls. The majority of standing grabs, that are not tethers, have a slower FAF so its not Corrin only nerf. This same comment can be made to dash grab as most of the cast received FAF and hitbox nerfs in this department. Landing lag buffs are universal for all the cast. This buff in combination with the nerfs to shield are likely to mean that all aerials could be safe on shield. Especially true for full hop aerials however the damage nerf to short hop will make them more unsafe out of short hop but not by much. My speculation here is that dash shield approach might be unsafe giving frame advantage to the attacker.

After the european invitational and talking to some notable players there, I will be moving some of the points of speculation into confirmed as I feel like there is enough evidence for them now.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

Meshima on twitter made a list of frame data changes in the demo versus smash 4. You can his spreadsheet here:
https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1023292531084152832?s=19

I will cover the Corrin specific information below.

Dash Attack: FAF 47 (56 in smash 4)
Foward Roll: FAF 30 (31)
Backward Roll: FAF 35 (31)
Standing Grab: FAF 37 (31)
Dash Grab: FAF 45 (38), Hitbox 10-11 (8-9)
Fair: Landing Lag 8 (14), Hitbox 9-11 (7-10)
Nair: Landing Lag 10 (13)
Bair: Landing Lag 8 (14)
Uair: Landing Lag 10 (15)

I have seen a lot of footage of Dash Attack -> Rapid Jab connecting near 0% and perhaps this is true now because of the FAF decrease. The slower backward roll is now universal as all characters now have slower backward rolls. The majority of standing grabs, that are not tethers, have a slower FAF so its not Corrin only nerf. This same comment can be made to dash grab as most of the cast received FAF and hitbox nerfs in this department. Landing lag buffs are universal for all the cast. This buff in combination with the nerfs to shield are likely to mean that all aerials could be safe on shield. Especially true for full hop aerials however the damage nerf to short hop will make them more unsafe out of short hop but not by much. My speculation here is that dash shield approach might be unsafe giving frame advantage to the attacker.

After the european invitational and talking to some notable players there, I will be moving some of the points of speculation into confirmed as I feel like there is enough evidence for them now.

I made this post as a channel on the Corrin Discord as well but I figured I would post it here as well. I have looked through all the Corrin footage I could find as well as discussions with prominent Corrin mains in smash 4 who have played the demo to make the following list.

Confirmed Corrin Changes
Jab3: Changed from a stab to a slash animation.
Fair: There is 2 more frames of start up before the hitbox is active.
DFS: The stun duration is reduced and the angle of knockback is lower. This combined with balloon knockback prevent DL as well as Bair follow ups to the stun. Only DFB confirms from DFS now. Full charge DFB does not confirm.
DL: No longer causes a hop when pinning the ground, lowering Corrin's hurtbox closer to the ground. The move can be canceled by tapping down on the control stick.
Kicks: Distance the kick travels is reduced and during the trajectory Corrin gradually falls to the ground.
Draconic Ascent: Forward momentum at the end of the move is lost and thus reducing recovery distance.
Pummel: No longer pummels with the hilt of the sword but rather a kneekick, faster but reduced damage.
Other: High knockback voice clips are now used in the game.

Obviously these have been widely noted in other threads and on wikipedia. Nothing here is really different from those sources. Its here to just provide a one stop shop of changes mostly and that is it.

Speculated Corrin Changes
Uair: Kill potential increased, possibly back to pre-patch Smash 4 Corrin.
Uthrow: Kill potential lessened due to rage changes.
Insta-pin: Corrin's lower pinned position results in IP having reduced range.
Dragon Lunge: The length of the lance is longer allowing for longer ranged pins.
Counter Surge: Increased FAF on successful counter.

These are changes notable smash 4 corrin mains have made regarding Corrin in Ultimate and while some of these really look apparent such as Fair start up, I will leave these in the speculated section until there is more substantial evidence to prove the claims. More than it feels this way or looks that way.

Corrin Tentative Base Damage
Jab1: 2 - 2
Jab2: 2 - 2
Jab3:
Rapid Jab: 0.5 - 0.9
Rapid Jab (final): 3.2 - 3

Dash Attack (multihits): 1.6 - 2
Dash Attack (final): 2.5 - 3
Ftilt: 9.1 - 10.5
Utilt: 9.4 - 9
Dtilt: 7.9 - 7.5

Fsmash (charge): 0.4 - 0.5
Fsmash (Early): 10.5/9.5 - 12/11
Fsmash: 10.6/14.9 - 12/15.2 (angled up does not change damage)
Fsmash (late): -/13.8 - 12/16.5
Usmash: 8.75/13.3 - 10/15

Fthrow: 6.1 - 7
Uthrow: 10 - 9.5
Dthrow: 10 - 9.5

Nair: 6.25 - 7
Fair: 7.9 - 7.5
Bair: 11.5 - 11
Bair (late): 10.1 - 9
Uair: 9.5 - 9
Dair (multihits): 2 -2
Dair (landing): 2.7 - 3

DFS (no charge): 3.1 - 4
DFS (full charge): 10.5 - 8
DFB (no charge): 9.8 - 10
DFB (full charge): 17.5 - 20

DL (aerial): 7.3 - 8
DL (special hop): 6.5/9.9 - 7/15
Forward Kick: 12.5 - 12
Back Kick (early): 3.75 - 5
Back Kick: 12.5 - 12


Counter Surge: 8.75 - 8 (1.2x multiplier for both games)
Draconic Ascent (first hit): 3.6 - 4.5
Draconic Ascent (middle hits): 1.2 - 1
Draconic Ascent (final): 2.75 - 3

Pummel: 1.4 - 3
Ledge Attack: 7.9 - 7

These numbers are found using the 1v1 matches only. The 1.2 damage multiplier is calculated out to compare to the Smash 4 numbers (second number).
So the format is: Ultimate % - Smash4 %

Note: While most of the numbers are less than the Smash 4 counterparts, this only applies in the absence of the 1.2 multiplier e.g. matches with more than two players. With the multiplier, much of Corrin's damage in 1v1 matches is equivalent to Smash 4 with some moves receiving slight damage changes. In this way the multiplier does not really give Corrin more damage in 1v1 scenarios.

Some moves are not here yet that is because I have not had footage of them actually connecting. I try to find footage where I can see the past 9 moves to account for stale moves and also revert the short hop penalty damage reduction.

If you find out anything new feel free to message me or find me in the Corrin discord.

Overall, very good data, but I like to make some corrections and updates since I did played corrin in the demo. Pin still has a hop animation, corrin just falls faster in it. However, you still have to press side b+a to do instapins. Double jump cover less distance, I played local tournaments in smash 4 with corrin and instantly noticed this in ultimate's demo. Pin kick overall has more lag as you still have landing lag if you kick off of the battlefield platform. And like you said through data, they made pin worse, but made her other moves better. Which is a good change imo. Thanks for putting this data up.

 

[Methacrylate]

Overall, very good data, but I like to make some corrections and updates since I did played corrin in the demo. Pin still has a hop animation, corrin just falls faster in it. However, you still have to press side b+a to do instapins. Double jump cover less distance, I played local tournaments in smash 4 with corrin and instantly noticed this in ultimate's demo. Pin kick overall has more lag as you still have landing lag if you kick off of the battlefield platform. And like you said through data, they made pin worse, but made her other moves better. Which is a good change imo. Thanks for putting this data up.

I was informed about the hop thing on discord as well and changed it there a while back. The hop mentioned was not referencing the special hop animation, it was referencing the shifting of Corrin's hurtbox after pinning the ground which I called a hop because it does look like Corrin jumps up and pins from a higher angle. Albeit, calling it a hop is terrible wording and only brings confusion especially in a move that has an animation called special hop.

Your other comments are decent speculation; however, I have found the demo is deceiving when it comes to such qualitative assessments. For example, many people were pointing to bair being faster, as in the hitbox comes out faster. Then someone did a frame count of the move and discovered that the hitbox comes out on the same frame as in Smash 4. Maybe these would be good to add into speculated changes though.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

I was informed about the hop thing on discord as well and changed it there a while back. The hop mentioned was not referencing the special hop animation, it was referencing the shifting of Corrin's hurtbox after pinning the ground which I called a hop because it does look like Corrin jumps up and pins from a higher angle. Albeit, calling it a hop is terrible wording and only brings confusion especially in a move that has an animation called special hop.

Your other comments are decent speculation; however, I have found the demo is deceiving when it comes to such qualitative assessments. For example, many people were pointing to bair being faster, as in the hitbox comes out faster. Then someone did a frame count of the move and discovered that the hitbox comes out on the same frame as in Smash 4. Maybe these would be good to add into speculated changes though.

True, it is just a demo, everything could change. And mb on the pin thing, I misread the comment to, my apologies.

 

[Methacrylate]

Nah I should have been clearer in the original post, you are good :D