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teching vs. edgehopping?

smasher91613

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Im a little confused about teching. What exactly do you do for it?

I thought it was called teching when you jump off a wall but apparently thats just called wall hopping or something like that. Lets say im going into the stage with falco and get hit with marths fsmash, i've seen someone right away someone go into an over b into the stage. I've also seen that magus video wheres he's jiggly puff and just slides on the ground and stops at the edge instead of flying off. How do i do this?

Thanks
 

DtJ Jungle

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alright

the first thing you described is called a wall hop or a walljump. you do this by running into a wall jumping di'ing inot the wall, then pressing back to jump off. you can do this on the ledge by ledge drop jump di towards edge smash away from edge

the second thing is what is called a ledgetech. what I do is when i get up b near the ledge and i know im not going to sweet spot it, i sdi towards the ledge then press R to tech the edge so i can try to recover again.
 

Magus420

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To tech on the floor you automatic smash DI directly towards the surface to tech on and directional DI it to get the lowest angle of knockback along the surface to stay as close as you can. You directional DI with the analog stick, and ASDI can be done with either stick but what is held on the c-stick overrides the input on the control. Because of that you can directional DI one way with the control stick while ASDIing a different way with the c-stick.

Holding both sticks in the same direction does nothing different than just holding the control in that direction, since all that would do is override with the ASDI input on the c-stick with the same ASDI that would have been input by the control anyway.

You only need to HOLD the c-stick directly towards the floor (so on flat ground it'd be straight down), DI with the control stick to get the lowest angle you can (generally opposite of what you'd use for normal survival DI), and press L/R just before the hitlag (pressing it DURING hitlag will not work, and obviously doing it after would mean you already missed the tech).

So if you're grounded and in lag so you can't avoid say Marth's f-smash which sends diagonally up & away, you hold down & away on the control stick (normally you'd want to DI it up & towards to survive in most cases), and hold down on the c-stick and time the L/R press just before it connects.

Even if you don't time the tech right but hold the correct directions you will slide along the ground if you would have been able to tech it. If you hold the directions correctly and still lift off the ground from the hit the vertical knockback on the hit was too powerful for the ASDI down to cancel out to make you hit the floor.

It works best for diagonal and lower sending moves. Vertical KO hits have too strong vertical knockback for it to be useful, and will overpower the ASDI downward far sooner than other hits.

Smash DI does not help you tech stuff on the ground because you can't collide with floors using SDI, and only automatic smash DI can do that. For edgeteching you want to SDI if you can because you can hit walls/ceilings with it and it happens during hitlag and before knockback so it wouldn't matter how high your damage is (ASDI is combined with the 1st frame of knockback so if it's powerful enough you'll go too far away and the ASDI won't be enough to make you hit the wall and be able to tech it).
 

Tee ay eye

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I didn't read anything but the OP, but since Magus replied, I know everything is A. OK now.
 

DtJ Jungle

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yeah that even though scar said it was impossible, meatsauce can do it
 

smasher91613

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To tech on the floor you automatic smash DI directly towards the surface to tech on and directional DI it to get the lowest angle of knockback along the surface to stay as close as you can. You directional DI with the analog stick, and ASDI can be done with either stick but what is held on the c-stick overrides the input on the control. Because of that you can directional DI one way with the control stick while ASDIing a different way with the c-stick.

Holding both sticks in the same direction does nothing different than just holding the control in that direction, since all that would do is override with the ASDI input on the c-stick with the same ASDI that would have been input by the control anyway.

You only need to HOLD the c-stick directly towards the floor (so on flat ground it'd be straight down), DI with the control stick to get the lowest angle you can (generally opposite of what you'd use for normal survival DI), and press L/R just before the hitlag (pressing it DURING hitlag will not work, and obviously doing it after would mean you already missed the tech).

So if you're grounded and in lag so you can't avoid say Marth's f-smash which sends diagonally up & away, you hold down & away on the control stick (normally you'd want to DI it up & towards to survive in most cases), and hold down on the c-stick and time the L/R press just before it connects.

Even if you don't time the tech right but hold the correct directions you will slide along the ground if you would have been able to tech it. If you hold the directions correctly and still lift off the ground from the hit the vertical knockback on the hit was too powerful for the ASDI down to cancel out to make you hit the floor.

It works best for diagonal and lower sending moves. Vertical KO hits have too strong vertical knockback for it to be useful, and will overpower the ASDI downward far sooner than other hits.

Smash DI does not help you tech stuff on the ground because you can't collide with floors using SDI, and only automatic smash DI can do that. For edgeteching you want to SDI if you can because you can hit walls/ceilings with it and it happens during hitlag and before knockback so it wouldn't matter how high your damage is (ASDI is combined with the 1st frame of knockback so if it's powerful enough you'll go too far away and the ASDI won't be enough to make you hit the wall and be able to tech it).
Thanks for the great reply.

So lets just say i'm falco and marth is to the right of me. He's just about to do an fsmash so i press down on the c-stick, left (?) on the control stick, and L/R all right before he hits me? or can the control and c-stick be held awhile before im hit?

Also wouldn't pressing L/R before im hit just result in a shield or dodge?
 

Magus420

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You would hold down & away (away is left in that case) and down on the c-stick. Down and away is perpendicular (at a 90 degree/right angle) to the f-smash's default up & away trajectory and would have the strongest change on the angle of knockback, and brings the angle it sends lowest to the ground and launches the most horizontal in this case. The other perpendicular angle up & towards would also have the strongest change in trajectory angle, but in the opposite direction to launch you at more of a vertical angle.

You only need to hold the directions on the sticks and it doesn't matter when/for how long as long as they are still being held as the freeze frames end. The only thing timing-wise that matters is you need to time the L/R press correctly.

If pressing L/R before you're hit allows you to shield or dodge then you can just avoid being hit in the first place. You'd want to use it when you are on the ground and in significant lag with no control over your character or any other way to defend yourself, like after a laggy move or something (say you whiff a smash attack, miss a rest with Jiggs, or your character has a good amount of landing lag on their recovery), breaking your shield, or not teching on the ground/platform.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

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Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
posts like the one magus made in this thread is the main reason i browse these boards
Quoted. For. Mother****ing. Truth.

Honestly, one of these days I'll just make a compilation of all of Magus' awesome posts in a thread called "We love Magus." The only reason I haven't done is yet is that you can just look at all his posts from his profile, which kind of makes the whole thing just a Magus fanclub. Still not a bad idea.
 

smasher91613

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You would hold down & away (away is left in that case) and down on the c-stick. Down and away is perpendicular (at a 90 degree/right angle) to the f-smash's default up & away trajectory and would have the strongest change on the angle of knockback, and brings the angle it sends lowest to the ground and launches the most horizontal in this case. The other perpendicular angle up & towards would also have the strongest change in trajectory angle, but in the opposite direction to launch you at more of a vertical angle.

You only need to hold the directions on the sticks and it doesn't matter when/for how long as long as they are still being held as the freeze frames end. The only thing timing-wise that matters is you need to time the L/R press correctly.

If pressing L/R before you're hit allows you to shield or dodge then you can just avoid being hit in the first place. You'd want to use it when you are on the ground and in significant lag with no control over your character or any other way to defend yourself, like after a laggy move or something (say you whiff a smash attack, miss a rest with Jiggs, or your character has a good amount of landing lag on their recovery), breaking your shield, or not teching on the ground/platform.
ok thanks again, i'm gonna try that later with bomb-ombs walking into me
 

smasher91613

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**** i can't get the edge tech, how long did it take you guys to get it down?

In the process of trying to record it to show you guys i actually did it once and 3 times after that but can't seem to be consistent

so as i'm doing firebird i hold towards the stage and press L right before i get hit right?

heres the video, i got it the 2nd time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-rFUza-ZA sorry for the terrible quality
 

Wind Owl

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As I understand it you need to hit L/R AFTER you get hit, but BEFORE you hit the stage (hence why it's tricky; it's like a 5 frame window). It also helps to Smash DI into the stage.
 

Geist

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It takes practice to get it down to habit.
If you can tech the floor, you should have no problem teching the wall, ceiling, etc. It just seems really weird and can be tricky calculating when you get hit off the stage like that.

Hold your C-stick and ASDI towards the stage (assuming you're close enough to tech it in the first place)
When you get hit hit L/R while still ASDIing and you should tech. The required timing for teching is within a half-second, but you have to do it after you get hit.
 

Magus420

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Yeah, press it as late as you can but also before you get hit, otherwise you would need to press it on the EXACT same frame you hit the wall which is a 1 frame window. Unless of course you got hit a good distance away from the wall and the attack sends you towards it normally then there'd be more time inbetween, but that isn't really an 'edgetech' in its usual meaning at that point and just teching off the wall that you got sent into.

Relying on just ASDI to edgetech will fail with higher knockbacks. After you get the feel for timing L/R and just holding towards the stage using ASDI to tech, you should probably learn to SDI by setting your damage to 999% or something when doing that.

Also, relying on ASDI to tech becomes more and more difficult to time the tech as the hitlag on the attack increases, since you can't press it during hitlag and the ASDI tech occurs after the full amount of the hitlag has passed.
With SDI you can hit the wall and tech at anytime during hitlag. A powerful smash attack might only give you a 10 frame window to press the button before it with ASDI, and is even worse for electric attacks which have 1.5x the normal hitlag. Falcon's knee for example would only give you a 7 frame window using ASDI, and Samus' charged shot just 2 frames.

A good way to do it is press L/R just before you get hit like normal, and then with the control stick at neutral just as you'd go into hitlag, smash a fast 1/8 to 1/4 circle on the control stick starting from towards (if doing 1/8 circle) or down&towards (for 1/4 circle) and then ending at up&towards and holding (also gives good DI in case you miss the tech).

This is generally better than just smashing into the stage with a straght line on the control stick since it's spread out over a longer length of time and will give you a SDI if it overlaps with the hitlag much easier. Also you'll get good DI for just about any attack you'd be hit with at the edge in case you don't tech correctly.
 

smasher91613

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As I understand it you need to hit L/R AFTER you get hit, but BEFORE you hit the stage (hence why it's tricky; it's like a 5 frame window). It also helps to Smash DI into the stage.
after you get hit but before you hit the stage? How does that make sense if i was teching with motion sensor bombs and get hit as i hit the stage?

It takes practice to get it down to habit.
If you can tech the floor, you should have no problem teching the wall, ceiling, etc. It just seems really weird and can be tricky calculating when you get hit off the stage like that.

Hold your C-stick and ASDI towards the stage (assuming you're close enough to tech it in the first place)
When you get hit hit L/R while still ASDIing and you should tech. The required timing for teching is within a half-second, but you have to do it after you get hit.
I can tech pretty well when getting hit at a wall (like in ness's stadium by the cars) and sometimes off the wall but this seems a lot harder.

So your saying i need to use the c-stick? I was using the control stick and it worked. you guys are saying after but magus said before im hit. :confused:
 

smasher91613

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lol sorry this is confusing me, im going to try to break it up somewhat
Yeah, press it as late as you can but also before you get hit, otherwise you would need to press it on the EXACT same frame you hit the wall which is a 1 frame window. Unless of course you got hit a good distance away from the wall and the attack sends you towards it normally then there'd be more time inbetween, but that isn't really an 'edgetech' in its usual meaning at that point and just teching off the wall that you got sent into.

ok so right before i get hit press L/R


Relying on just ASDI to edgetech will fail with higher knockbacks. After you get the feel for timing L/R and just holding towards the stage using ASDI to tech, you should probably learn to SDI by setting your damage to 999% or something when doing that.

Ok so basically i can hold the c-stick towards the stage as opposed to the control stick?

Is it like the teching on the ground where it can be help towards the stage the whole time or does it have to be timed like L/R?



A good way to do it is press L/R just before you get hit like normal, and then with the control stick at neutral just as you'd go into hitlag, smash a fast 1/8 to 1/4 circle on the control stick starting from towards (if doing 1/8 circle) or down&towards (for 1/4 circle) and then ending at up&towards and holding (also gives good DI in case you miss the tech).

This is generally better than just smashing into the stage with a straght line on the control stick since it's spread out over a longer length of time and will give you a SDI if it overlaps with the hitlag much easier. Also you'll get good DI for just about any attack you'd be hit with at the edge in case you don't tech correctly.
ok so as im going up instead of pressing toward the stage i smash the control stick down/towards the stage and do a 1/4-1/8 circle to diagonally upwards? Is this done right as i'm pressing L or can it be done ahead of time?

Thanks again
 

Magus420

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Keep in mind that the c-stick does not do anything in 1 player/training mode besides controlling the camera. That means you would only be able to use it for ASDI in multiplayer mode.

You can still just hold the c-stick to use it for ASDI. If you're going to use the c-stick you'd only need it if you're holding a different direction on the control stick. If you wanted to DI normally to survive by holding up&towards you could use the c-stick by holding it horizontally into the stage for more useful ASDI for teching (like if Marth f-smashes you you'd hold up&towards on control and just directly towards on the c-stick). Like if the edge is directly to the right of you it'd be better to have the full amount of the ASDI move you to the right by overriding with the c-stick rather than half of it to the right and half upwards like the ASDI would be like from the control stick in that situation.

For the partial circle to do the SDI, you do it just after you press L/R since the L/R must be before hitlag but the circle should overlap with the hitlag. So it'd be [L/R->Hitlag begins->Input SDI] all in quick succession. Timing it so the L/R happens before but the SDI happens after it begins is the tricky part and takes practice.
 

smasher91613

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Keep in mind that the c-stick does not do anything in 1 player/training mode besides controlling the camera. That means you would only be able to use it for ASDI in multiplayer mode.

You can still just hold the c-stick to use it for ASDI. If you're going to use the c-stick you'd only need it if you're holding a different direction on the control stick. If you wanted to DI normally to survive by holding up&towards you could use the c-stick by holding it horizontally into the stage for more useful ASDI for teching (like if Marth f-smashes you you'd hold up&towards on control and just directly towards on the c-stick). Like if the edge is directly to the right of you it'd be better to have the full amount of the ASDI move you to the right by overriding with the c-stick rather than half of it to the right and half upwards like the ASDI would be like from the control stick in that situation.

For the partial circle to do the SDI, you do it just after you press L/R since the L/R must be before hitlag but the circle should overlap with the hitlag. So it'd be [L/R->Hitlag begins->Input SDI] all in quick succession. Timing it so the L/R happens before but the SDI happens after it begins is the tricky part and takes practice.
hm ok i'll work on that, i forgot c-stick doesnt work in practice mode, glad i didn't just go practice that lol. All this is pretty **** confusing but hopefully i'll get it when practicing.

So i set a motion sensor bomb and firebird up. I hold the C-stick towards the stage, press L right before i'm hit and SDI during the hitlag

so basically in the future during a fight you can just hold ASDI but SDI has to be timed right when your getting hit.
 

Magus420

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Yeah, ASDI is input automatically (hence the name) based on the direction you're holding as hitlag ends, and if both sticks are being held then the c-stick's direction is used for it. SDI requires you to time the input during hitlag.

Basically, during hitlag there needs to be a certain amount of 'change' in the control stick's position for it to register as SDI. If you just hold a direction there's no change and so it doesn't count. By moving the stick quickly in a partial circle or hitting the direction during hitlag you meet the movement requirement and so it reads it as SDI.
 

smasher91613

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Yeah, ASDI is input automatically (hence the name) based on the direction you're holding as hitlag ends, and if both sticks are being held then the c-stick's direction is used for it. SDI requires you to time the input during hitlag.

Basically, during hitlag there needs to be a certain amount of 'change' in the control stick's position for it to register as SDI. If you just hold a direction there's no change and so it doesn't count. By moving the stick quickly in a partial circle or hitting the direction during hitlag you meet the movement requirement and so it reads it as SDI.
oh ok got it, that makes sense.

For your demonstration of jigglypuff you said you were just holding both sticks and only the L/R had to be timed because its a different type of tech and only used when you cant shield or do something else right?
 

Magus420

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Yeah, while you can collide with walls/ceilings by either ASDI or SDIing into them, you can only hit floors with ASDI. Trying to SDI into a floor doesn't do anything, so to ground tech like that you'd only be able to use ASDI which doesn't require timing like SDI does.
 

SPAWN

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Can you double stick tech jiggs's rest(I think it sends you up away so probably not since it's so strong)? Or only like with Falcon on KJ64 lol.
 

HT F8

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Can you double stick tech jiggs's rest(I think it sends you up away so probably not since it's so strong)? Or only like with Falcon on KJ64 lol.
Unnecessary bump... infraction much? >_>

Magus double stick techs Rest in one of the 2 videos.

Certain percentages only, I'm guessing.
 

SPAWN

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Ur dum.

He does it on a sloped stage. My question was for a non sloped stage. I'm pretty sure you can't since it's vertical knockback is really high, but I was just clarifying.
 

DtJ Jungle

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hahahaha this is one of my old spam threads.


also...SPAWN i think you can't it sends you too far too fast.
 

SPAWN

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Yeah, that's what I figured. I just couldn't have gone on with my life if I had found out that you could sdi the rest onto the ground and tech it. I needed someone to verify it.
 

HT F8

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Ur dum.

He does it on a sloped stage. My question was for a non sloped stage. I'm pretty sure you can't since it's vertical knockback is really high, but I was just clarifying.
I'm pretty sure I DS teched 2 consecutive rests in Puff 3ways today on Battlefield... alas that's only at like 0% and 20-something%.
 
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