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Techchasing Fastfallers: an extensive guide

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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ACE on Techchasing Fox, Falco, and Falcon out of dthrow:

Dair: A great move for racking up damage at low%, as well as starting, continuing, and ending combos. Ganon’s best option for punishing tech in place, and good for punishing getup attack at low%. Dair can also be useful for punishing a techroll if your opponent's options are limited (if you are near an edge or a ready teammate). Normally you have enough time to punish techroll away with dair, but you have to start running asap and your opponent will usually have time to see this and react differently.

*Best options after landing a Dair:

Grab (low/med%)
+chaingrab for Fox/Falco
+techchase opportunity (dthrow)
+uthrow onto platform for techchase
+many options out of dthrow

Jab (low%)
+possible techchase opportunity
+possible grab opportunity
-only ~7% damage is guaranteed

Fair (med/high%)
+damage (17% fresh)
+knockback
+usually sets up for an edgeguard

Dair (low/med%)
+damage (22% fresh)
+techchase opportunity
-at med% this doesn’t kill or send your opponent offstage

Side-b (till about 40%, before dair)
+damage (17% fresh)
+guaranteed aerial/tilt follow up


Fair: Ganon’s overall best option for punishing techroll away at almost any%, as well as punishing getup attack at med/high%. Fair should be used as a tool to get your opponent offstage to set up for an easy edgeguard. Usually when you land this, the stock is yours.


Down Smash: A good choice for covering more than 1 option. Dsmash is best when you predict your opponent will tech in place, although sometimes you can also use it to punish a techroll. If you are near an edge or on a platform, you can charge the dsmash for extra damage and knockback since your opponent's options are limited. Near the open stage, it is best to watch your opponent's DI and c-stick a dsmash so that the first hitbox will be in his face if he techs in place. This way, if he techrolls in, he still gets hit by the 2nd hitbox. The problem with dsmash is that the 2nd hit is not guaranteed if your opponent DI’s the first hit correctly. If your opponent does not DI correctly, however, you have options similar to what a dair leads to.


Bair: Bair is good for punishing techroll in, as well as tech in place. When you are close to the ledge facing the middle of the stage, this is great for knocking your opponent offstage if you predict that he will techroll behind you. If you predict a tech in place and use bair, you have a free jab in the event that you guess wrong and they techroll toward (through) you instead (covers 2 options). If you fully space bair and time it so that it would auto-cancel (if he were to techroll away instead), you have a free JC grab.


Gerudu Dragon (side-b): Ganon’s best choice for covering several options at once at low/med%. When positioned properly, side-b covers no tech, tech in place, and techroll away. The problem with side-b: unless you catch your opponent on a missed tech, it’s possible for your opponent to DI down and stay grounded at low%. If they do not DI correctly (or if you catch them after a missed tech), you have options similar to what a dair leads to.


Wizard’s Foot (down-b): A decent choice for knockback and covering several options at once. With proper positioning, down-b covers no tech, tech in place, techroll away, and sometimes getup attack. The problems with down-b a): massive cooldown time, b) it can put you offstage c) you may send your opponent backwards.


**Overall, Dair and Fair are Ganon's best, as they collectively cover every techchasing option, they both guarantee a good bit of damage, and they lead to techchases/edgeguards/KOs. Techchasing is not all guesswork. Choosing the best techchasing option is not always easy. There are many factors that influence the way your opponent will tech which are not covered here. You can, however, punish any tech to the fullest of Ganon's ability using what it shown above. Go practice!


==================================================


MAGUS420's Detailed Techchasing options with animated GIF's and frame data

Landing Frame: The moment they touch the ground is used for timing references and windows. -1 is the frame directly before they touch the ground, 0 is the 1st landing frame, +1 is the 2nd landing frame, etc


Side-B
_______________________Coverage A

_______________________Coverage B
*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Away from Ganon)
or
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)
-As long as you are close to the opponent you can choose either set of coverage options you want from a single location (as shown in the gif), since the pullback on the move will position you behind them before moving forward to always cross through where they landed with the attack

Falco/CF: To cover their Tech Roll Forward in the set you need to be slightly past/fully overlapping them before using side-b (see gif below). In other words, if those techs are to the right, you would need to be at least on the right half of their body before doing the side-b to the right (the pullback will move you back onto their left side before going)
-Tech Roll Forward: A Tech Roll in the same direction the opponent is facing. If you d-throw them while facing right it would be a tech roll to the right since the d-throw turns them around
-Tech Roll Backward: ^^ cept the other direction


*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF {Closest Range}: ~4 frames (+1 through +4)
Fox/Falco/CF {Farthest Range}: ~4 frames (-1 through +2)
-These aren't exact and vary slightly with spacing and which tech roll is involved

*Maximum Range*
-If you are any further away than this you won't reach them on the tech roll.
____________________Tech Roll Backward

____________________Tech Roll Forward
*Other Stuff*
-At very low damage they can ASDI down to not be lifted up from the side-b (they can't do this after a No Tech however)
-Since it's always strong enough to cause knockdown they can't punish you if they do though, and you are at a +5 advantage before they can do a getup on no tech, +5 if they Tech-Stand, and +19 if they Tech-Roll it
-If you grab Fox/Falco at ~14 damage and CF at ~17% or more, they can't hold down against a side-b after d-throw to not get popped up into the air by it



D-Smash



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco: 5 frames (-2 through +2)
CF: 4 frames (-2 through +1)

*Maximum Range*
-If they are any closer to you than this you won't reach them on the tech roll.
____________________Tech Roll Backward

____________________Tech Roll Forward
*Other Stuff*
-If they land on the same platform as you such as off a d-throw or low damage d-air, a d-smash will hit them out of all 4 of their landing options at once pretty easily. Same thing if they land between you and near the end of the stage (the 2nd kick will usually send them upwards for a combo or offstage depending on DI)

-They can avoid the 2nd kick with SDI+ASDI+DI up
---Fox: The SDI up is always required
---Falco: The SDI up isn't required when spaced more out towards Ganon's foot
---CF: The SDI up isn't required when he goes into the "barrel roll" type knockback animation and towards the outer part of the leg (which one he gets is random), and near the tip of the foot it isn't required on the other KB animation
-The 1st kick can be teched by holding downward if they are allowed (if the d-smash hit them out of a Tech-Stand they won't be allowed to tech again). If they don't tech when ASDIing downward they still bounce/slide into the 2nd kick anyway



Down-B



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Away from Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF {Closest Range}: ~10 frames (0 through +9)
Fox/Falco/CF {Farthest Range}: ~10 frames (-5 through +4)
-These aren't exact and vary with spacing and which tech roll is involved

*Maximum Range*
-If you are any further away than this you won't reach them on the tech roll.
____________________Tech Roll Backward

____________________Tech Roll Forward



B-Air(Autocanceled) -> JC Grab



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco: 3 frames (input jump for SHFFAC B-Air within -7 through -5)
CF: 2 frames (input jump for SHFFAC B-Air within -7 through -6)
-SHFFAC B-Air: For the fastest one possible, input B-Air on 6th air frame, and do soonest FF



F-Air(Early) -> JC Grab(Behind) or Jab(Front)



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)
-If you don't have enough time to land from the F-Air towards the beginning of their landing you won't be able to jab a Tech-Stand
-Being able to land early enough with the F-Air usually means coming off a platform or being in the air already, otherwise you could just get them with something before they land if you have time to set it up with a SHFFL


*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: 11 frames (F-Air landlag starts on +1 through +11)



F-Air(Middle) -> JC Grab(Behind)



*Options Covered*
[2/4]: No Tech, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: 7 frames (F-Air landlag starts on +12 through +18)



F-Air(Late)



*Options Covered*
[2/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: ~10 frames (input F-Air within +1 through +10)
-These aren't exact and vary with spacing/airtime



D-Air(Late)



*Options Covered*
[2/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF {Don't Care Either Way}: 10 frames (input D-Air within 0 through +9)
Fox/Falco/CF {Normal Launch off No Tech}: 4 frames (input D-Air within +6 through +9)
-On No Tech if you hit before frame 23 of the bounce animation they hit the ground again and don't go upwards
-On a no launch d-air you can still get up to a +9 advantage before they can do a getup if the d-air hits directly before landing


 

ArcNatural

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IMO, near edges if you dthrow you should always at first run to the tech in place and fair. That LOOKS (not covers) it covers 3 options but it actually only covers 2. But it will scare most players enough that you can then just fair/dair the tech roll towards the next time it happens.
 

RestInPeace

Smash Ace
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Try watching DI out of Dthrows to see which way they'll tech. Some players will DI in, and tech in. If they DI out, they'll tech out. Most players don't mix up the DI and techs, like DI away and tech in. If you're up against someone like this, keep it in mind, and continue to watch DI as clues to where he'll tech.

Or, you can just see if they always tech in place/away/in.
 

CluelessBTD

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I don't really feel like contributing much right now, but just know that you can't techchase Falco's techroll with a Wizard foot or side-B.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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you can't techchase Falco's techroll with a Wizard foot or side-B.
Yes you can...

With side-b, you might have to take a half-step forward to make sure side-b will reach, depending on their percent. You should have time since you aren't hitting B asap, you have to wait until just before they land. You definitely have to be close to them. Down-b should reach regardless, unless they are at a relatively high% and DI away.
 

RestInPeace

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Does anyone know if running is faster, or your Side B? Because it would then be possible to run to where they land (assuming after a Dthrow), then press down quickly (I don't know what this is called) to cancel your movement, and immediately do a Side B. This might work upon reaction time against characters like Falcon or Ganon, but I'm not sure with Spacies.

I have no one to test this on, if possible, someone test this for me please. Test the DIs on the throws to see if its possible. I know if they DI behind, or no DI, you can just walk up and not need to run -> cancel movement.
 

CluelessBTD

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Yes you can...

With side-b, you might have to take a half-step forward to make sure side-b will reach, depending on their percent. You should have time since you aren't hitting B asap, you have to wait until just before they land. You definitely have to be close to them. Down-b should reach regardless, unless they are at a relatively high% and DI away.
I'm pretty sure his roll is too far. Don't feel like testing it. I'm not the pioneer I used to be.
 

Magus420

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You can down-b all 3 characters on either one of their tech roll directions. You just need to be reasonably close to where they land.

You can side-b all 3 as well, but CF's and Falco's forward facing tech rolls you need to be slightly past/fully overlapping them to reach it (if you grabbed them while facing to the right their forward tech roll is to the right after a d-throw since it turns them around). The pullback on the move will be enough to move behind him again to be able to catch the no tech and tech-stand.

In other words, if those 2 tech rolls of theirs were to be moving to the right, you would need to be at least on the right half of their body before doing the side-b to the right (the pullback will move you back onto their left side again before going to the right).

I should have some nice visuals at some point to put up of the timing/positioning to cover as many options with some moves.
 

PaperstSoapCo

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Nice guide ACE. For the sideB tech chase you can use it on the top platform of BF with additional option that you won't get anywhere else. What you do is sideB and hold the opposite direction, if you hit, you get to follow up accordingly but if you whiff it when Ganon falls off the platform if you stay holding the opposite direction you will edge cancel on the bottom platform and get an opportunity to do an aerial from below or evade if you want.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I should have some nice visuals at some point to put up of the timing/positioning to cover as many options with some moves.
Nice. I'll probably add it to this thread.

Nice guide ACE. For the sideB tech chase you can use it on the top platform of BF with additional option that you won't get anywhere else. What you do is sideB and hold the opposite direction, if you hit, you get to follow up accordingly but if you whiff it when Ganon falls off the platform if you stay holding the opposite direction you will edge cancel on the bottom platform and get an opportunity to do an aerial from below or evade if you want.
^^ This is so useful. After the cancel you can do any aerial and still waveland on the ground for a quick follow up.
 

Magus420

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Landing Frame: The moment they touch the ground is used for timing references and windows. -1 is the frame directly before they touch the ground, 0 is the 1st landing frame, +1 is the 2nd landing frame, etc


Side-B
_______________________Coverage A

_______________________Coverage B
*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Away from Ganon)
or
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)
-As long as you are close to the opponent you can choose either set of coverage options you want from a single location (as shown in the gif), since the pullback on the move will position you behind them before moving forward to always cross through where they landed with the attack

Falco/CF: To cover their Tech Roll Forward in the set you need to be slightly past/fully overlapping them before using side-b (see gif below). In other words, if those techs are to the right, you would need to be at least on the right half of their body before doing the side-b to the right (the pullback will move you back onto their left side before going)
-Tech Roll Forward: A Tech Roll in the same direction the opponent is facing. If you d-throw them while facing right it would be a tech roll to the right since the d-throw turns them around
-Tech Roll Backward: ^^ cept the other direction


*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF {Closest Range}: ~4 frames (+1 through +4)
Fox/Falco/CF {Farthest Range}: ~4 frames (-1 through +2)
-These aren't exact and vary slightly with spacing and which tech roll is involved

*Maximum Range*
-If you are any further away than this you won't reach them on the tech roll.
____________________Tech Roll Backward

____________________Tech Roll Forward
*Other Stuff*
-At very low damage they can ASDI down to not be lifted up from the side-b (they can't do this after a No Tech however)
-Since it's always strong enough to cause knockdown they can't punish you if they do though, and you are at a +5 advantage before they can do a getup on no tech, +5 if they Tech-Stand, and +19 if they Tech-Roll it
-If you grab Fox/Falco at ~14 damage and CF at ~17% or more, they can't hold down against a side-b after d-throw to not get popped up into the air by it



D-Smash



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco: 5 frames (-2 through +2)
CF: 4 frames (-2 through +1)

*Maximum Range*
-If they are any closer to you than this you won't reach them on the tech roll.
____________________Tech Roll Backward

____________________Tech Roll Forward
*Other Stuff*
-If they land on the same platform as you such as off a d-throw or low damage d-air, a d-smash will hit them out of all 4 of their landing options at once pretty easily. Same thing if they land between you and near the end of the stage (the 2nd kick will usually send them upwards for a combo or offstage depending on DI)

-They can avoid the 2nd kick with SDI+ASDI+DI up
---Fox: The SDI up is always required
---Falco: The SDI up isn't required when spaced more out towards Ganon's foot
---CF: The SDI up isn't required when he goes into the "barrel roll" type knockback animation and towards the outer part of the leg (which one he gets is random), and near the tip of the foot it isn't required on the other KB animation
-The 1st kick can be teched by holding downward if they are allowed (if the d-smash hit them out of a Tech-Stand they won't be allowed to tech again). If they don't tech when ASDIing downward they still bounce/slide into the 2nd kick anyway



Down-B



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Away from Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF {Closest Range}: ~10 frames (0 through +9)
Fox/Falco/CF {Farthest Range}: ~10 frames (-5 through +4)
-These aren't exact and vary with spacing and which tech roll is involved

*Maximum Range*
-If you are any further away than this you won't reach them on the tech roll.
____________________Tech Roll Backward

____________________Tech Roll Forward



B-Air(Autocanceled) -> JC Grab



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco: 3 frames (input jump for SHFFAC B-Air within -7 through -5)
CF: 2 frames (input jump for SHFFAC B-Air within -7 through -6)
-SHFFAC B-Air: For the fastest one possible, input B-Air on 6th air frame, and do soonest FF



F-Air(Early) -> JC Grab(Behind) or Jab(Front)



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)
-If you don't have enough time to land from the F-Air towards the beginning of their landing you won't be able to jab a Tech-Stand
-Being able to land early enough with the F-Air usually means coming off a platform or being in the air already, otherwise you could just get them with something before they land if you have time to set it up with a SHFFL


*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: 11 frames (F-Air landlag starts on +1 through +11)



F-Air(Middle) -> JC Grab(Behind)



*Options Covered*
[2/4]: No Tech, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: 7 frames (F-Air landlag starts on +12 through +18)



F-Air(Late)



*Options Covered*
[2/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: ~10 frames (input F-Air within +1 through +10)
-These aren't exact and vary with spacing/airtime



D-Air(Late)



*Options Covered*
[2/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand

*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF {Don't Care Either Way}: 10 frames (input D-Air within 0 through +9)
Fox/Falco/CF {Normal Launch off No Tech}: 4 frames (input D-Air within +6 through +9)
-On No Tech if you hit before frame 23 of the bounce animation they hit the ground again and don't go upwards
-On a no launch d-air you can still get up to a +9 advantage before they can do a getup if the d-air hits directly before landing


 
Last edited:

Fortress | Sveet

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magus you need a thread that is just a sequence of every post you ever made.

it would be the best thread ever!
 

Fortress | Sveet

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In this example:


F-Air(Early) -> JC Grab(Behind) or Jab(Front)



*Options Covered*
[3/4]: No Tech, Tech-Stand, Tech-Roll (Towards Ganon)
-If you don't have enough time to land from the F-Air towards the beginning of their landing you won't be able to jab a Tech-Stand
-Being able to land early enough with the F-Air usually means coming off a platform or being in the air already, otherwise you could just get them with something before they land if you have time to set it up with a SHFFL


*Timing Window*
Fox/Falco/CF: 11 frames (F-Air landlag starts on +1 through +11)
would it be possible to downb to cover away option? i assume it would be too slow to cover the tech in place option (unless they tried to attack and wiffed)
 

Magus420

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In this example:




would it be possible to downb to cover away option? i assume it would be too slow to cover the tech in place option (unless they tried to attack and wiffed)
When you chase a tech roll with down-b you hit near the end of the window around 30-34ish depending on the spacing and distance of their tech. A tech roll is only 40 in duration, and adding the 12 lcancel lag of the f-air it probably would be too slow even if you were nearly ontop of them and landed from the f-air as early as possible without actually getting to hit them with the f-air before they landed.
 

Doromac

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There should be a board only for Magus.
Seriously though, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to put Magus' info in the first post.
 

RestInPeace

Smash Ace
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At the end of the first post, it says that Dair/Fair are the best options.

Wouldn't Gerudo Dragon (Side B) be better? It covers 3 options, and pops them up at mid-high % no matter how they DI, and leads to another aerial. If you think they're going to tech away, and you can Fair them, why not use Side B to pop them into the air first? You cover more options this way, and add a little bit more damage. Plus, you can do this into a grab, and we all love Ganon's grab.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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At the end of the first post, it says that Dair/Fair are the best options.

Wouldn't Gerudo Dragon (Side B) be better? It covers 3 options, and pops them up at mid-high % no matter how they DI, and leads to another aerial.
It's a matter of preference. I already stated that side-b is Ganon's best choice for covering more than one option.

If you think they're going to tech away, and you can Fair them, why not use Side B to pop them into the air first? You cover more options this way, and add a little bit more damage. Plus, you can do this into a grab, and we all love Ganon's grab.
If you fair them at that % they're offstage (dead). Elaborate combos are fun and all, but the goal is to get your opponent offstage as efficiently as possible, since edgeguarding fastfallers is essentially a guaranteed KO.

Side-b
+covers 3 options
-not guaranteed at low%

Fair
+effective at any %
+usually sends your opponent offstage which is a guaranteed ko

Dair
+22% damage (fresh)
+pops your opponent up higher than side-b, creating opportunities to get your opponent offstage at lower% than side-b
+guaranteed effectiveness at low%
 
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