Tech_Chase wants YOU to assist in the BBR MU Chart project!

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Hey everyone, I’m Tech_Chase and will be leading your character’s panel for the BBR Match-Up Chart v3. The thread detailing panel leaders, as well as other various information about the project, can be found here.

The current panelists for this panel are: Tech_Chase, Big D, kyokoro_pamuyo, Vex Kasrani


We are limited to five panelists for this project, and are looking for active and knowledgeable members of the character community to help fill our remaining openings. If you would like to join the panel for this character, please make a post demonstrating your interest in this thread, along with what would make you a desirable panelist. Keep in mind that debating skills are important for all panel members, and those with poor behavior will be ejected from the project if complaints arise.


If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me or Ish if you would rather speak to one of us privately. Panelist selections will be finalized in a week or two, at which point we will begin discussing which match-ups to change in the panelist subforum.



So yeah that was a template that was given to me to post here.

tl;dr: If you're interested in being a part of the panel THIS is where you prove why I should recruit you. Activity is the biggest concern of mine. It's never been a strong point for this group so we need people who are knowledgeable AND able to stay active throughout the entire project. So yeah if you think you would be a good fit for the Dedede panel holler at me.

Oh and if you have any links to posts that would help prove your case that would be mad helpful.

- TC

 

[C.J.]

Dibs on backup

 

[White91]

Ill help. I know what I'm talking about

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I would make of list of people who are interested but we won't get that many lol. I have you in mind though fyi. And everyone else who inquired earlier. Except Mr "MAH DRILL INSTRUCTOR GON KICK MY ***"

 

[bubbaking]

I didn't read everything, but I'd LOVE to help out!

*Goes back to reading OP*

Edit: Should I mention what MUs I have experience in and what High/Top players gave me experience in those MUs?

Edit 2: Oh, ok, nvm, I guess I should:

• Lucario: I play very, very frequently against John12346's Lucario (we're schoolmates). For those who don't know (but I doubt that's the case), John is one of the best Lucarios in NA. I've taken him to game 5 of competitive sets and, as an arbitrary note, I've beaten him on his famous, preferred CP where supposedly, nearly no one beats him.
• Marth: I play frequently against Minty (schoolmates; really good Marth in our region), including a set in bracket, and I've also played Zorai's (a decent Marth in our region) Marth in bracket.
• Diddy: I play frequently against Nuke (schoolmates; pretty much only good true Diddy in NY now).
• Snake: I played Fatal (you know him ) in the quarterfinals of a tournament in Boston. Took him to last stock both games. Also played several friendlies with him and had a detailed discussion with him about the DDD:Snake MU. I've also played Problem's (a very good Snake in our region) Snake in bracket.
• Ness: I regularly play a Ness (goes by tag of Baconator; schoolmates; same crew as me and John) very frequently, including competitive sets, and beat him in tournament. I also faced a Ness who used to be ranked on the AZ PR (I forgot his name ) in two tournaments, in one of which we faced off at the GF's. I won every set in both tournaments.
• Wolf: Played frequently against Pane (very good Wolf in our region)
• Peach: Played with Dark.Pch (you know him......hopefully )
• Luigi: I faced Luigisama (best Luigi in our region) in bracket and also beat a decent Luigi (Thunderst0rm) in bracket.
• Ike: I regularly play an Ike (tag is JamIsLosingTheGame; schoolmates; same crew as me and John; placed well in a large tourney with top players in it) very frequently, including competitive sets.
• Oli: Played against Dabuz (you know) and I play frequently with a decent Olimar (tag DarkPikmin; schoolmates; same crew as me and John), including competitive sets,
• Wario: Played frequently against a decent Wario (Nipps; schoolmates) and I also faced a really good Wario friend of Will's (goes by tag of Wario, funnily enough) in two tournaments, in one of which we faced off at the GF's.
• Falco: Played frequently against a decent Falco (Nipps; same Wario guy)
• DK: Played agaisnt Will (former schoolmates) and I also faced a great DK friend of Will's (goes by tag of Luigi, ironically) in two tournaments, in one of which we faced off at the GF's.
• TL: Played against MJG (the infamous ) at Apex 2012 and I play frequently with a decent TL (tag DarkPikmin; same Oli guy)
• Pit: Played against John12346's and Dabuz's Pits.
• Kirby: Played against Ghost's (decent Kirby in our region) and MikeKirby's (very good Kirby in our region) Kirbies. Beat Ghost in a MM set.
• Sheik: Played a lot against Dcold's (decent Sheik in our region) Sheik
• Yoshi: Played against Raptor (good Yoshi in our region)

Umm, I would like to think that I am somewhat polite and my debating etiquette isn't harsh or vulgar or anything.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry for the double post. The two MUs I'm claiming to have the most knowledge about, out of all the MUs I stated above are Lucario and Snake, but I also think I have a really good hold of a lot of the other ones, like Ness, Ike, TL, etc. Anyway, my experience is detailed above...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So much name search bait...lmao.


Thank you for this!

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, no problem! I also won't take rejection hard or anything so feel to just yell out "YOU'RE NOT HIRED!!!"

 

[Player-1]

put 4god on this

 

[bubbaking]

Forgot about Yoshi experience...

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I hit a guy with a fsmash last tournament, is that reason enough to be in?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

put 4god on this

Inactive as hell.

I hit a guy with a fsmash last tournament, is that reason enough to be in?

Nah you need 500 documented cases minimum.

 

[bubbaking]

Hoow abooouuuut.....?

 

[AtotheZ]

I downtilt without crouching

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I was just wondering what are the matchups that the ddd boards are planning on trying to get changed? I'm figuring from what I've been hearing around trying to get falco and diddy to be only -1.

 

[bubbaking]

I've also heard and observed from discussions on the metagame threads that the general opinion among top players, including top DDD's and BBR members, is that DDD:Fox (-1), DDD:Sheilda (-1), and DDD:Snake (+1) should all be 0.

 

[allshort17]

What about ZSS being -1?

 

[bubbaking]

I didn't read any discussion about that. It was just random people bringing it up here and there. Mostly SFP and Gheb, I believe.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I've heard talk I believe from 4god that zss should not be -2. Also do we agree with pika being a -2 as well? I would think the only characters worse than -1 are olimar, mk, and ics.

Also why is shielda -1 but shiek 0 and zelda +2? I would think shielda would only be a 0 just like shiek.

 

[White91]

Pikachu sucks

 

[ぱみゅ]

Sheilda doesn't work like that.
Basically, Sheik alone can damage DDD a lot but she can't kill him; and Zelda alone can't approach him, plus she's bad at racking up damage, and chances are her killing moves will be stale when she gets DDD to killing percentages.
But, granted Sheik dealt a lot of damage, all she need to do is hit DDD away, transform (DDD will probably not get to her, as he's the slowest character overall) and now Zelda doesn't need to approach, while having all of her moveset fresh. When transforming again, Sheik will have her whole moveset refresehd as well.

It depends on many factors, like load speed, stale moves, stage, and if Sheik actually manages to hit an Smash/Fair/Farore on DDD, but in supertheory, Sheik and Zelda, as a team, have advantage.


That said, I'm pretty sure this is the only MU where the team is better than letting Sheik handle the whole thing.

 

[C.J.]

Pikachu as well. Use Zelda to get out of deathgrab range.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, Kyokoro and CJ, we (including notable players and BBR members) had a lengthy discussion on the Official MU Chart thread about about the MU between DDD and Sheilda. The conclusion arrived at was actually that DDD:Sheilda should not be -1, but should in fact be 0. The MU, in theory, may be played differently from DDD:Sheik, but it does not give Sheilda an advantage. The disadvantage of being Zelda at any point during the match counteracts any advantage switching to her may give.

I'll try to see if I can find the discussion to link it here. It was conducted around the same time as the DDD:Fox discussion, which also arrived at the conclusion that MU should be 0. Perhaps I should just find both and link them here...

Edit: And Kyokoro, a couple flaws in your reasoning are these (bolded for emphasis):

But, granted Sheik dealt a lot of damage, all she need to do is hit DDD away, transform (DDD will probably not get to her, as he's the slowest character overall) and now Zelda doesn't need to approach, while having all of her moveset fresh. When transforming again, Sheik will have her whole moveset refresehd as well.

It depends on many factors, like load speed, stale moves, stage, and if Sheik actually manages to hit an Smash/Fair/Farore on DDD, but in supertheory, Sheik and Zelda, as a team, have advantage.

We covered these points in the discussion, I believe. Let me go look.....

 

[C.J.]

Meh, even if it doesn't give her enough of an advantage to warrant a +/- 1, it still makes it a more difficult even which still makes it "better."


Note that I haven't said anything about what I believe any ratio to be. Just that even if it stays even, it's a "harder even" for DDD.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't even know why I mentioned Zelda transforming again to Sheik.

Anyway, yes, in the end this is nothing but theorycrafting.
In this theory, all Sheik needs is a chance to transform when she has advantage at high percentages and now the MU is better for her.

Also, what Encyclopedia Brown said. <3

 

[AtotheZ]

All of zelda's kills moves are really easy to dodge though. Mono sheik vs DDD is much better in my opinion, except for the rare occasion of resetting stale moves.

sheik kills ddd easier than zelda even when not fresh

 

[bubbaking]

OK, I found the relevant discussions. I tried to break them up in a manner that would make them easy to read:
[COLLAPSE="Top players' interpretations of DDD's MUs (Official SWF Matchup Chart thread)"]

You're insane.^

's matchups in my honest opinion:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

I'm taking into account an Apex ruleset for these matchups with all infinites being legal.

Thank god someone is logical around here.

put falco in -2 and this is pretty much completely accurate

oh wait nvm, only -1 for ike against ddd

Wow! Great list!
Only thing I disagree with is diddy at -2. I think he is -1.

[/COLLAPSE]
Notice how Coney and 4GOD agree with Seagull's MU spread for DDD, which has Sheilda and Fox at even for DDD.

[COLLAPSE="DDD vs Sheilda (Official BBR Tier List thread)"]

Sheik is 0 but Sheilda is -1, wth?

DDD loses to most characters above him, not some.
He also loses to Fox, and arguably Sheilda and Sheik.

He's even with Sheik. Idk why the heck Sheilda is a +1 against him. What Sheik in his right mind would switch willfully into a bad MU, just to (hopefully) secure a kill? That is one part of the MU chart that I disagree with and it should not be taken seriously into the consideration of a character's, like DDD's, placement. I think the BBR just wanted to support their whole "Sheilda does better than both Sheik and Zelda" nonsense, so they gave her random MUs that she does better than Sheik. It's practically an example of the BBR theorycrafting even harder than I, or anyone else, ever could. I have played against a decent Sheik in my region (Dcold) and our record is about even.

Sheilda at worst does just as well as solo Sheik/solo Zelda. If she does worse then that's because of not using Sheilda correctly.
The idea behind Sheilda is that you play to each character's strengths and try to eliminate their weaknesses (start off with Zelda against characters that can CG Sheik, use Zelda at high percents to net easier kills, start off with Sheik against characters she can ftilt lock the **** out of etc)
If there's some MU where you feel switching to Zelda provides absolutely no advantage over staying Sheik, then Sheilda = Sheik for that MU.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. I mean, do you even have decent experience against any Sheildas?

You're ignoring the fact that Zelda can't switch into Sheik safely and vice versa. You start off the match as Zelda? Congrats, enjoy being ***** while you try to find a good time to transform. Actually pulled off a transformation? I hope you enjoy my super high-powered fsmash punish. Planning to secure an easier kill with Zelda? You might as well stick with Sheik and fish for a DACUS or something. I've played frequently against A Sheilda (whom I actually consider as a Sheilda), and he's not good at all, but he's actually the closest thing that I would consider to an actual Sheilda. What Sheilda has actually played out the Sheilda:DDD MU at high level? This is why I find it to be mostly theorycrafting, at least concerning this specific MU.

Edit: Note that I didn't say Sheilda:DDD is worse than Sheik:DDD, because it simply can't be, but what actually proves that it's better? The benefits that you'd get off of switching are totally counteracted by the benefits I get off of punishing your attempts to reap your benefits. Like, it's true that you might get something out of it in the long run, but it doesn't equate to a clean MU advantage jump.

Knock opponent offstage --> transform while they're trying to recover. Works especially well against DDD cause he's most mobile during his upB anyway XD
Take opponent to PS1/PS2/Delfino or something.

I mean it's no wonder you think Sheilda isn't much different from Sheik if you think the Sheilda player is going to transform in a position where DDD can punish with an fsmash

My point is that, ideally, you're going to be fighting an even MU most of the time. Sheik's gonna have to work really hard to knock DDD off to the point that she gets a clean enough break to transform and not get punished. Yeah, fsmash mighta been a bit overzealous, but dsmash, usmash, utilt, dtilt, bthrow, fair, and bair are all a bit more realistic and they're all high-damaging, moderate-to-high KB moves. This whole time you're fighing DDD as Sheik, if the DDD is decent, he's been tacking on damage too, so by the time you switch, you might just be meeting your death.

So, first you're assuming that the MU is in your favor because you'll ever get a chance to transform at a time when the rewards cleanly outweigh the risks. Secondly, you now have to play so on-point with Zelda that you actually net your planned kill, because the moment you switch, you are now fighting a battle where you are constantly disadvantaged at neutral. I'm not saying that your logic and reasoning for the MU is wrong, but I'm saying that it's not enough to boost the MU from the 0 that Sheik actually started with in the first place. Sheilda probably does have her own way of doing the MU, and it might work, but I'm not buying a +1 from that. DDD has as many chances to kill Zelda as Zelda has to kill him.

Edit: Stages - Alright, I can see the transform strat working on PS1 because of tree camping, so for the purpose of Devil's Advocate in argument, assume that I'm banning that stage. I would do it anyway if it really allowed the Sheilda strategy to work to the point that Sheilda solidly beat DDD. There are no longer any stages where transforming is safe without knocking DDD extremely far offstage. PS2's earth transformation isn't nearly as safe for that as PS1's fire transformation. Delfino doesn't offer a single point during the stage's movement that would offer Sheilda a safe haven for transforming.

There's a second point I would like to make: If Zelda kills DDD with her lightning kicks (the only way I can see Zelda killing DDD early enough and in a way that would make switching to Zelda profitable), then he dies out the side and comes back quickly. Zelda never got the chance to switch back. She now has to fight a very uphill battle while trying to someday realize the chance when she can switch back to an even MU. She also can't switch back safely upon dying because the transformation outlasts the invincibility. Of course, she could just decide to forego safety and simply transform if she is at low %'s, since DDD can't CG Sheik, but that would definitely result in a very highly damaging punish (like fsmash). Btw, DDD's fully charged fsmash kills upwards of 30% on most stages, so you have to make sure you're really low on damage.

My sincere question to you is: Do you know any high level Sheildas who have actually played out this MU against a high level DDD, or am I right in assuming that this MU is actually based entirely on theorycrafting and not on an actual tourney match or MM done in some place at some point in time?

/ do NOT beat .

And neither does , as far as I'm concerned.

It's pretty much just theorycraft, yeah. I'm fairly certain the only person that actually uses Sheilda (ie both Zelda and Sheik in the same match) is Ed (aka ScaryLB59). I remember seeing a match of a different Sheilda vs some DDD and the Sheilda did pretty well, but idk who it was.

Oh apparently it was Fuujin vs MetalMusicMan (and it was just Zelda, not Sheilda)....so yeah let's ignore that lawl

The day I see Coney/Atomsk lose to a or is the day I might agree with you. camps with lasers, but all his moves have to attack a large shield he can't reliably space against. And he's light. 's the same damn thing. And vs ...? That is hard as **** for .

>Taking into account mid level players for discussing a matchup

Adding in with does not increase the chance of winning because you now just threw in a worst character who is slow on the ground, can't reliably camp , and has to hit his shield with laggy lightning kicks.

All I get from reading V115 is this: IF can't cg then the matchup must be even or the other characters favor.

[/COLLAPSE]
This reasoning explains why the DDD:Sheilda MU should actually be 0, a conclusion that both I and Seagull supported and no one could really refute.

[COLLAPSE="DDD vs Fox (Official BBR Tier List thread)"]

DDD loses to most characters above him, not some.
He also loses to Fox, and arguably Sheilda and Sheik.

Besides, Fox is a decent character. No shame in (very slightly) losing to him. Lucario also loses to Fox, and Fox also goes even with ZSS. Some people even believe that Fox goes even with MK (isn't he some kind of MK check/counter in Japan?). On top of that, if Fox really does beat DDD, I believe it's really slight. I've personally never had any problems against a Fox, but then again, I probably have yet to play a spectacular Fox. He's not Falco. He can't stop our approach and he's easily gimped. I have no qualms about going offstage to face his Illusion because I have no fear of being meteor'd. All our grabs equal him offstage, too, so a Fox dying near 0 isn't hard to believe.

Uh, all grabs = Fox offstage? You're aware DDD can't CG Fox, right?

I was never referring to CGs when I talked about throwing Fox offstage. I was talking specifically about our launchers, our side throws. Fox is a lightweight and a fast faller. A single throw that sends him offstage equals Fox in a bad position. It's not hard to get him offstage with a throw on most stages, and if we're ever not in a position to get him there in a single throw, we can attempt to TC him closer to the edge with dthrow.

Edit: A good DDD player does not need his CG to be good in a MU. DDD can potentially TC other chars to oblivion. I've seen other DDD's do it and I've done it myself. It's partly why I believe that DDD:Falco is actually a -1 and not a -2. It's like Sheik in Melee. In NTSC, she could CG so many chars. In PAL, they changed it so she couldn't CG anyone anymore (and her uair lost all of its killing power), but did she drop in tiers at all? Absolutely not! She actually rose. She can't CG you anymore? Well ok, fine, she'll just TC you to death. It's literally the same scenario, but with a little bit of a worse char for DDD. He may lose the CG, but there's no way you can avoid the TC. It's a phase that you absolutely have to fight through.

I know what you were saying, but all I was saying all along was that DDD can just f/bthrow Fox 80% of the time and just proceed to gimp him or punish his recovery. The remaining 20% of the time, DDD can set up for a TC to bring the situation over to the 80%.

/ do NOT beat .

The day I see Coney/Atomsk lose to a or is the day I might agree with you. camps with lasers, but all his moves have to attack a large shield he can't reliably space against. And he's light.

You said it pooplord. Bthrow does a lot of damage and then has to land. 's bair outprioritizes all of 's aerials. The matchup is only even because has the ability to camp with lasers. Otherwise it'd be 's favor. There is obviously more to the matchup then that on both sides, but from what I've seen results indicate the matchup to be 's favor (I've never seen TKD play Addy and don't know if they've ever played since they live at opposite ends of the country. But Coney/Atomsk's results indicate the matchup to be 's favor). I think it's even though and mains just need to step it up.

The vs MU is even in my opinion.

The advantage has over is the fact that can smack and kill at early percentage, as well as his grab prioritizes 's Grab. The disadvantage is cannot chain grab and has little response to 's lasers (Side- B or just jump over). Eventually, the damage racks up and fox can dombo into a usmash, sweet spot a bair, uair, or w/e and can land the kill.

The advantage has over is he's way quicker, can land some easy strings of attacks (uair into grab, utilt, or pretty much whatever the wants to do) and when the damage is high enough, can land a kill. The downside is gets killed earlier than and doesn't normally die until around 140% unless gets lucky with a fresh b-air or usmash.


I am getting this from the matches that I've seen Carls () and players, like Fizzle and SneakyTako and it pretty much goes even. It's essentially a chess match and whoever makes the wrong move first loses.

[/COLLAPSE]
So, going solely by results from top players, DDD:Fox is actually in DDD's favor. Of course, not only results go into deciding a MU value, but it should be reasonable to conclude that DDD:Fox should be raised from a -1 to a 0.

#DoingHomework

 

[C.J.]

Using Seagull for evidence of... anything that isn't wolf related is an awful idea. Not to mention you don't have the opinion of Ed (the best Shielda) or even a notable Sheik or Zelda. You have your opinion, an apathetic Coney's opinion and Seagull. On top of that, Coney and 4GOD didn't supply any reasoning for their beliefs. I personally don't agree w/ appeal to authority on such a subjective matter where variation in playstyle can play such a huge part.
Actually, looking at the middle part again, I see 3 names. 1 of which has, arguably, any reason to talk about the MU at all (being you).

Secondly, just because two things are listed as even, doesn't mean they're the same difficulty. Sheik is an easier MU than Shielda. The only possible argument is whether or not it's by enough of margin to warrant a different number. At no point did Kyokoro or myself say that Shielda beats DDD. All that was said was that the team is better vs DDD than the individual.

Honestly, most of your argument is strawman (making Kyo/my statement of varying levels of difficulty out to mean something we never said) or appeal to authority (player X who's a high level player and player Y who has a purple name).

If you want your argument to be worthwhile, please message Ed or Judo, ask them about their records vs DDD and opinions on the MU, etc.

That being said, I am impressed at the amount of work you put into that post. +1 for that.


EDIT: Why did you bring up Fox at all? I'm so confused.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And what does SEAGULL has to do with how SHEIK+ZELDA work?
Why does his opinion matter more than anyone else's, specially his opinion on ZELDA?

V pretty much said exactly the same things that CJ and I just said, plus the fact nobody can be sure because there is no actual evidence and we all are merely theorycrafting.
Getting to a stale point doesn't mean you are right.

 

[bubbaking]

Using Seagull for evidence of... anything that isn't wolf related is an awful idea. Not to mention you don't have the opinion of Ed (the best Shielda) or even a notable Sheik or Zelda. You have your opinion, an apathetic Coney's opinion and Seagull. On top of that, Coney and 4GOD didn't supply any reasoning for their beliefs. I personally don't agree w/ appeal to authority on such a subjective matter where variation in playstyle can play such a huge part.
Actually, looking at the middle part again, I see 3 names. 1 of which has, arguably, any reason to talk about the MU at all (being you).

I think you're forgetting that the main point of that argument was that it was all theorycraft. I explicitly asked for cases of the Sheilda:DDD MU being played out at top/high level. Even going by theorycraft, a solid +1 advantage couldn't be proven or held.

Edit: I believe Seagull mentioned Ed and several notable Zeldas, but whenever you have a top player on one side of the MU, you fail to get one for the other side.

Edit 2: Oh, it was V115 who mentioned them and it didn't have much to do with the discussion at all.

Secondly, just because two things are listed as even, doesn't mean they're the same difficulty. Sheik is an easier MU than Shielda. The only possible argument is whether or not it's by enough of margin to warrant a different number. At no point did Kyokoro or myself say that Shielda beats DDD. All that was said was that the team is better vs DDD than the individual.

I actually did say this:

Note that I didn't say Sheilda:DDD is worse than Sheik:DDD, because it simply can't be, but what actually proves that it's better? The benefits that you'd get off of switching are totally counteracted by the benefits I get off of punishing your attempts to reap your benefits. Like, it's true that you might get something out of it in the long run, but it doesn't equate to a clean MU advantage jump.

I'm not saying that your logic and reasoning for the MU is wrong, but I'm saying that it's not enough to boost the MU from the 0 that Sheik actually started with in the first place. Sheilda probably does have her own way of doing the MU, and it might work, but I'm not buying a +1 from that.

I never said that I disagreed with you and Kyokoro, nor did I assume that you were stating that the MU is a -1 or, well, anything.

Honestly, most of your argument is strawman (making Kyo/my statement of varying levels of difficulty out to mean something we never said) or appeal to authority (player X who's a high level player and player Y who has a purple name).

If you want your argument to be worthwhile, please message Ed or Judo, ask them about their records vs DDD and opinions on the MU, etc.

That being said, I am impressed at the amount of work you put into that post. +1 for that.

That was never my intention. I was just bringing up the discussions so that the reasoning applied during it could be observed and possibly even discussed further here. Thanks for the compliment, though.

EDIT: Why did you bring up Fox at all? I'm so confused.

I simply brought it up because of this:

It was conducted around the same time as the DDD:Fox discussion, which also arrived at the conclusion that MU should be 0. Perhaps I should just find both and link them here...

Also, DDD:Fox is another of the MUs that I believe should be changed on the MU chart from -1 to 0.

V pretty much said exactly the same things that CJ and I just said, plus the fact nobody can be sure because there is no actual evidence and we all are merely theorycrafting.
Getting to a stale point doesn't mean you are right.

That was the point I was making since day 1 of that discussion... There is no high level evidence (that I'm aware of) and theorycrafting shouldn't have landed at a -1 instead of a 0. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I'm saying that certain conclusions shouldn't be 'arrivable at,' so to speak.

 

[C.J.]

I think you're forgetting that the main point of that argument was that it was all theorycraft. I explicitly asked for cases of the Sheilda:DDD MU being played out at top/high level. Even going by theorycraft, a solid +1 advantage couldn't be proven or held.

Still, there was no input from a person who played the opposite character. I'm 98% sure I can convince the majority of people on SWF to agree w/ me on most of Marth's MUs excluding the MUs involving the characters any given person plays.

Theorycraft is useless if not done at an extremely high level (see: almost all theorycraft ever) and if there isn't equal input from an equally qualified person of the opposite side.

Also, what do I consider to be extremely high level theorycraft? Absolutely nothing less than things like this:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309846

Very detailed explanation of various interactions in common situations and likely mix-ups that occur in them. After the initial post, there was a brief conversation (although it could have been more civil) between Chair and BAM and Player-1 added his input and disagreements from the initial ideas proffered.

Anything less than that and the theorycraft is worth, basically, nothing. Pretty much any and everything you see in the general forums that is theorycraft isn't worth the time it takes to read it.

I never said that I disagreed with you and Kyokoro, nor did I assume that you were stating that the MU is a -1 or, well, anything.

"The MU, in theory, may be played differently from DDD:Sheik, but it does not give Sheilda an advantage"
I gather you meant numeric advantage in terms of the MU chart then? I took it as "Shielda doesn't have an advantage in the MU in comparison to Shiek" (which she does- the extent of which is just arguable).

That was never my intention. I was just bringing up the discussions so that the reasoning applied during it could be observed and possibly even discussed further here. Thanks for the compliment, though.

Okidoki- was just pointing out something that will be an issue if you take any logic/philosophy/etc class or have to write anything at any point to persuade people. Fallacies are bad and most people use them w/o knowing.

Also, I'm aware I'm fairly blunt so I hope you took nothing I said to be insulting or w/e.

 

[| Big D |]

We have a Sheilda main and a Zelda main in our region which I played an awful lot, so I do have experience albeit not top level experience non the less.

In this match up you should strive to stay grounded. The only two ways Zelda should be killing you is by punishing your landings, and by edge guarding. Coming back against Zelda is certainly tough with strong aerials and smash attacks. Her frame 4 dsmash is a really good way to put you near the bottom corner of the screen and forcing an upb. Also landing against Zelda can be tough because of our low aerial mobility, so her run speed is not as big of an issue, however if we do end up far away, we can fast fall to the ground and not have to worry. One tool that we do have is that our dair beats upsmash, if it didn't, Zelda could just run underneath us and upsmash for days. So that gives us options of saving jumps and doing rising dairs before we land or if you're confident enough and read that they will upsmash just dair them straight up.

That's my view on how Zelda should kill Dedede. Zelda kills earlier but has a lot more trouble getting Dedede into those bad situations. A grounded Dedede will give Zelda a lot of problems as the RPS game is skewed in our favour as her moves can be shield grabbed and won't clash with ftilt. Basically while Zelda will have an easier time killing once Dedede is in a bad spot, Zelda just doesn't have the tools to force us into those positions. There is a range against Zelda which you want to be in, as any character. I'd say it's about a dash length a way, where we can punish dins on reaction and be out of range of burst moves like shorthop fair or dash attack. Zelda cannot approach, walking towards her is the best method of approaching as you can walk shield dins and react to what few options Zelda has. Zelda also doesn't have a good fast fall like Sheik does and we can punish her landings very easily, so she will take a lot more damage. Her ground speed really hurts her and she doesn't have any good options from a dash. The one move you have to fear on the ground is dsmash, don't get hit by it and you should be fine.

I do believe that Zelda would work great on a Dedede that doesn't know his options since Sheildas are rare, but if you know what to look out for Zelda shouldn't work.

 

[C.J.]

One tool that we do have is that our dair beats upsmash, if it didn't, Zelda could just run underneath us and upsmash for days.

idk why since it seems weird, but Seibrik/Ed assure me DDD can get out of usmash for free quite consistently. Usmash *shouldn't* be an issue assuming that to be true.

 

[bubbaking]

I always found Zelda's usmash to be quite hard to SDI with anyone, which makes it even harder for DDD who's so big and heavy and falls so fast back into it... Are you sure they weren't talking about Sheik?

 

[| Big D |]

idk why since it seems weird, but Seibrik/Ed assure me DDD can get out of usmash for free quite consistently. Usmash *shouldn't* be an issue assuming that to be true.

If that's ture it would certainly make the mu a lot easier, it's also a little embarrassing on my part -_-. It would also depend on the timing since if they upsmash your landings you are likely going to get hit by the end of the move.

I know a some characters can get out consistently and some can't, I never really know because Zelda's are either super optimistic or super pessimistic (I've had one claim the ditto is -1 for the Zelda main) and tell me every character or no characters get out.

 

[C.J.]

I always found Zelda's usmash to be quite hard to SDI with anyone, which makes it even harder for DDD who's so big and heavy and falls so fast back into it... Are you sure they weren't talking about Sheik?

If that's ture it would certainly make the mu a lot easier, it's also a little embarrassing on my part -_-. It would also depend on the timing since if they upsmash your landings you are likely going to get hit by the end of the move.

I'm very sure they were talking about DDD getting hit by Zelda's usmash. DK, Bowser, ROB, etc all have a lot of problems w/ it due to size so I always assumed DDD to as well. About a year ago I was playing Ed w/ DDD and managed to SDI out of it quickly. I was surprised that I was able to and Ed told me that DDD, for some reason, can pop out.

vOv

 

[AtotheZ]

I think slide DI/sDI combo works. people over estimate size being a hard factor, it hurts a bit for escaping out of multi hit moves but I've never had a problem with it using DDD.

 

[C.J.]

Okay, I'll bite.

Slide DI?

 

[AtotheZ]

the second part was smash DI, but anyways, slide DI sliding your control stick between two points to get more inputs in that general direction to escape something, ex. multihit moves.

 

[C.J.]

So... your own personal name for SDI.

okidoki.