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Tech chasing fast-fallers on reaction

TKD

Smash Lord
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Fox and Falcon are cursed in the sense that a Sheik player can cover all their tech options assuming he reacts accordingly, and that Sheik gets a knockdown on them with a lot of stuff, notably dthrow at any %.

The reason Falco's not as easy is that his tech rolls are larger than Fox's, and don't last as long as Falcon's (you can still cover them maybe, but I'm not sure it's realistic to pull it off 100% every playing session).

If you practice enough, your tech chase success rate can reach 100%. You just have to condition yourself to react correctly (don't ever get distracted and beat yourself up for missing it, though: on a bad day you can even simply start predicting...or switch characters lol). I have a slow reaction time, and even so I've had days where my dthrow is guaranteed a follow-up vs Fox/Falcon.

To execute the 100% tech chase against both Fox and Falcon, I recommend the following reaction priority upon dthrowing them:
1. React to an in-place tech: The first thing you're ready to do is to punish this. If you don't respect it, spacies will just shine or spot-dodge and destroy you for miss-timing a punish. Suggested plan B: if you weren't ready to punish this, a small dashdance can let you avoid the shine/spot-dodge and punish.
2. React to a tech roll: Level 2 priority, as this is the 2nd fastest option. If they definitely didn't tech in place, you can react to it and boost grab the tech roll in whichever direction the opponent does it. Falcon has a larger tech roll, but it lasts a long time, so you have time to dash a bit before reaching him. Fox's tech roll ends quickly, but it's short enough that a boost grab reaches him from your standing position. Falco's is the toughest to reach, and I think it probably can't be done with 100% consistency: his tech roll is larger than Fox's, so boost grab won't reach an away tech from your standing position, and it ends faster than Falcon's, so you don't get the luxury of a bit of time to react. Suggested plan B: If you react too slowly and won't get the boost grab, dash attack can often reach the opponent in time.
3. React to a missed tech: Last level priority; I recommend you to not even think about this (unless you're on prediction mode), as it gives a long time to react. Also, guaranteeing your success on chasing in-place techs and tech rolls is more important because they're easy to chase consistently (the tech sound and flashing character effects help a lot). So, if you see they didn't tech in place, and then see they didn't tech roll, and still have time to react, you're probably tech chasing 100% now! Depending on the opponent's percentage, jab reset at very low % and downtilt at percentages where it starts causing knockdown so you can techchase again are the best options. Jabs to grab/dsmash or simply a panic dsmash can work well (as long as you react). Suggested plan B: If you didn't react to the non-tech in time, you can chase almost as normal, except you have to guess between in-place wakeup and wakeup attack if the opponent does either of these (by timing your answer early for in-place wakeup or blocking the expected wakeup attack).

I've tried other reaction priorities, but they haven't worked as well. For example, if I expect the tech roll as my first priority, I don't react to the in-place tech in time, since it ends too quickly. If I expect the non-tech, I may not react to actual techs, which is stupid because people tech most of the time, and if you don't react to a missed tech before they can use a wakeup option, you still get to chase it (except they have the option to wakeup attack now).

Remember to walk into them first if they DI away on the downthrow (you have to start next to them).
The tech chase reaction can be applied in other situations, like random knockdowns where you have a long time to move, or platform knockdowns (where you should probably react with uair if possible as that leads to combos).
If you're feeling lazy, dthrow usmash covers non-techs and in-place techs.
The reason I tell you to grab the opponent with this method of tech chasing is PRECISELY because grab has a guaranteed follow-up if you're doing this right, so you're doing a follow-up that has a follow-up.
Most spacie players LOVE to tech in place so they can shine you. It's funny when they attempt this repeatedly because they just keep getting grabbed over and over (then they usually start using tech rolls and get grabbed anyway).
At higher percentages, you can utilt/dsmash the opponent before they reach the ground from your dthrow if they DI in certain ways (upwards and into you or something). Specially the dsmash is extremely good if it'll send the opponent offstage.
Choosing to fthrow/bthrow when near the ledge is an excellent choice, as always. Any grab that leads either to a huge amount of damage or an edgeguard attempt (you get a chance to take out an entire stock, and even if failed, and you get to see or pattern out how the opponent recovers).
You can end a tech chase, usually with an usmash attempt, if a tech chase gets too long and the pressure gets to you. I specially like dthrow to dtilt knockdown vs missed tech to dash usmash (it looks cool as hell too) or just the usmash read vs possible in-place tech or non-tech; hell even panic dsmash is OK sometimes since it's damage anyways.

Anyway, if you gain a ton of practice, you can condition yourself to tech chase Fox and Falcon 100%. This is extremely important for the fast-faller match-ups, as it makes dthrow lead into either a ton of damage or an edgeguard, consistently.

I find it annoying that Sheik players don't know about this after so many years of Melee, so start practicing in your friendlies. If it's an important match and you don't have this down (near 100% at least against in-place techs and tech rolls), don't attempt it and start predicting or guessing.

I hope someday every day will be good for me, but there are good days and bad days. I've had days where I have this down 100% and often 0-to-death from any dthrow because of it. Other days, I can't react as well and have to start guessing (a super-easy way to make it 50/50 if you don't have it 100%: usmash covers non-tech and in-place tech; boost grab covers tech rolls. Pick and choose, LOL. If you wanted to cover a tech roll and they tech in place, dash away to avoid and back to punish a shine/spotdodge as most spacie players love doing).

This is realistically possible, by the way. It just takes a lot of practice the first few times.

Even on days where you're reacting badly and have to resort to prediction, knowing how to do this helps your tech chasing execution anyways (as trying to cover 1 or 2 options when used to covering all 4 will obviously increase your accuracy).
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
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Possible to practice this with any computer level?

Also, is boost grab just a regular dash grab without the jump cancelling?
 

TKD

Smash Lord
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Tijuana, México
A boost grab is a dash attack canceled grab. If you press grab during the first 2 or 3 frames (don't know the exact window) of dash attack, your character executes a dash grab, and in Sheik's case, it reaches very, very far (enough to reach Fox's tech rolls from a standing position).

The main use of a boost grab is replacing dash attack....
  • to reach people's tech rolls
  • as a combo follow-up
  • to punish lag from far away (there's a distance at which, besides needles, only boost grab and dash attack can reach your opponent)
Just remember not to press A too quickly after tapping the dash command or you'll fsmash instead of dash attacking (though you probably already knew that).

The specific timing you use to cancel your dash attack determines how far a boost grab will reach, but thankfully for Sheik I think all timings result in great range.
Fox is my alt, and I know the distance for his boost grab varies a ton (and it's not NEARLY as useful: his dashgrab is slow).
 

SUNG475

Smash Ace
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I've been wondering for awhile if it is possible to tech chase 100% on reaction. Cause I miss it a lot and I know I need a ton of practice on it.

Data taken from http://www.smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012 legendary Magus

For Falco (I use Falco because the frames and everything are the same as Foxes except the distance travelled from tech rolls are 14.4 ft instead of Fox's 12.6 ft)

Tech in place
Invincible 1-20
Total 26 frames

Tech roll forward
Invincible 1-20
Total 40 frames, horizontal movement at 9

Tech roll backward
Invincible 1-20
Total 40 frames, horizontal movement at 6

Human reaction times is 10-20 frames, avg is like 16 or 17 I feel like. The forward tech roll is very similar to the tech in place animation right before it starts moving is it noticeably different (they both have Falco's legs up almost doing like a split in the air) so that is the hardest to react to imo. Not only does the back roll starts moving horizontally sooner but the animation is a lot different so it's the easiest to recognize and react to.

The trick that spacies do to throw you off is to DI ambiguously and make it hard for you to know which side they're going to land on. The solution I have is to do a small wavedash away which still gives you enough time to react to anything (or I would do a pivot stop instead).

So to determine whether it is a tech in place or tech roll forward I think you need at least like 4-5 frames to tell the difference right after Falco techs on the floor so then add 15 frames for the avg human reaction time and then another 7 for the grab.

SO BASICALLY I think it's 100% possible to do it completely on reaction but you have to be on your A game.
 

TKD

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You can decrease your reaction time by conditioning yourself to react to certain cues. In this case it would be the tech sound effect and flashing character. After noticing it's a tech, you look for NO movement. If the character stays in place it's an in-place tech. If the character moves, you can go ahead and boost grab and there's time to react because as you see those are almost twice as long.

I have bad~average reaction time but could pull off things with a 3 frame margin of error from powerblocks in Brawl, just because powerblocking causes a huge clank noise and a white flash surrounding your shield. It's a conditioning thing.

But yeah you do have to be on your A game before you actually master it, which would be my current situation. At first I couldn't react at all except to 1 specific option I chose to react to. Now I have a huge consistency rate except vs Falco (that extra tech roll length is just so crucial).

Before completely mastering this, I recommend that you focus on covering the tech options. It's OK if you can't react to the non-tech yet (the fact that they can't actually tech from the dthrow without being grabbed again is extremely powerful by itself). You can react to non-techs with jab reset/dtilt knockdown/panic dsmash (ftilt deals no hit-stun from dthrow; which is fine as that would make things even more ridiculous) or predict them and prepare an usmash (which also covers in-place tech).
 

SUNG475

Smash Ace
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You can decrease your reaction time by conditioning yourself to react to certain cues. In this case it would be the tech sound effect and flashing character. After noticing it's a tech, you look for NO movement. If the character stays in place it's an in-place tech. If the character moves, you can go ahead and boost grab and there's time to react because as you see those are almost twice as long.
I'm saying that you can't tech chase on reaction if you look for changes in horizontal movement. If you did it solely on that, then you'd have to wait 9 frames for Falco to start moving in his tech roll forward so if he doesn't at that time (and does tech in place instead) then you'd have to react after the 9th frame, and add the 15 frames for human reactions and add 7 frames for grab. So there's no way you'd be able to grab the tech in place in time.

(ftilt deals no hit-stun from dthrow; which is fine as that would make things even more ridiculous) or predict them and prepare an usmash (which also covers in-place tech).
If the f tilt is staled then it'll knock an opponent up without any tumble. If I know it's fresh I'd do that instead of jab reset after early %s.
 

KirbyKaze

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If a spacey doesn't DI, don't press the stick
If a spacey DIs away, press the stick forward lightly for a bit if it's Fox and if it's Falco you hold it to build walking momentum
If a spacey DIs behind you, press the stick behind you

If they do a handstand, press Z
If they stick a leg sideways and roll, dash in the appropriate direction and boost grab (this is why we built up walking momentum vs Falco to compensate his longer tech roll)
If there's a green flash, jab / f-tilt / d-smash / u-tilt (not if they DIed away)
 

TKD

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/\ That's exactly it. I told m2k about it as he would be godlike if he mastered it, but he doesn't believe too much in himself and just says he can't do it (he says that for a lot of things unfortunately). He says he's incapable of reacting in time which I think is wrong as evidenced by his Marth edgeguards which are often a display of excellent reaction. Fortunately his gameplay outside of his dthrow game is absolutely stellar, so he can still be modeled after for that.

This is not just against spacies though. It's against Fox/Falco/Falcon mostly and many midweights if they'll get to tech.

Also, I don't know the percent for it but if they DI into you there's a free utilt (for which I don't really know the %; last time I played I just did it instinctively). You don't have to worry about this as you'll be automatically able to do it every time as soon as you master the perfect tech chase (at least vs the techs; following 100% consistently on non-techs isn't essential as you can always punish with a panic move or wait for the wake-up which is 50/50 between wake-up attack and everything else).

For the record, you can do the perfect dthrow on any fastfaller in the exact same way (except for pre-wakeup punishments on non-techs which can get trippy). Against Fox you can hold the control stick all the way forward as well and just stop once you reach him. If you reach the point where you can do it perfectly vs every fastfaller the main difference will be that you can utilt/dsmash Falcon way earlier than the spacies when they DI into you.

Update: I'm trying out usmash on reaction to non-techs (I'm tired of choosing between jab and dtilt). It may or may not be possible to do it consistently. Haven't tried it in real matches yet, though.

Edit: Oh Sung! I met you at KOC3, right? You gotta keep playing Sheik! That Falco sucks :p If you polish your tech chasing, platform uair combos and edgeguards, you got this vs fast-fallers. Sheik beats Marth and Peach anyways. And if you're going spacie, I think you should rather play Fox and learn to JC shine so you can waveshine out of shield vs other spacie's reckless shffls.
 

SUNG475

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^I just saw this, unfortunately I can't exactly remember you but I didn't go falco at all at koc3 (mostly marth/all falcon in rd1 pools/1game of sheik/all samus v fly)

I know you did mad work last weekend at SSS (beat Hyprid wow!) come to the next SSS too! I'll def be there and will probably be using sheik >:]
 

Ezzee

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 26, 2013
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I tend to dash dance before I tech chase. Does this serve any real purpose? Also, is there a time you should tech chase with Dash Attack or maybe sour spot up-smash?
 

EMP_Zurg

Smash Cadet
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sure one stock for one grab, but in the future grabbing fox will also get harder. one grab by an ic equals death from wobbling but they still lose to fox. sheik fox is still a pretty even matchup though.
 

EMP_Zurg

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If you see a missed tech by a falcon, what's your go-to option once they are high enough to SDI out of a reset? Obviously a dsmash would be fine at really high percent, but say like 40% until then. Does stage position factor into this?
 

EMP_Zurg

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Noted, so what can I do to minimize the effect he can have to get out of my loving grabs and combos?

Edit: aka as mindless as possible so all I have to do is react to no tech instead of take 20 factors in
 
Last edited:

SUNG475

Smash Ace
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I double jab -> f-tilt if I know they're tryin to SDI (which is obvious) or double jab immediate dash sh uair if they try to DI away and dj (I got this on Hax a couple of times at Apex 2012)

But I also think that falcon can SDI and then immediately gentleman you or run away before your grab/f-tilt comes out (westballz has done this to me a lot but maybe I just messed up all those times I dunno)

You can do your jab really early or really late for the timing mix up when they don't tech. Also you can just not do anything if you know they're gunna SDI (so they'll either get up/roll but never get-up-attack)
 

EMP_Zurg

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Would up tilt -> grab be effective as well? It seems to combo into grab nicely, even on an sdi'er, which as long as we're not jab reset upsmashing them should be okay.
 

SUNG475

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I love up tilt grab but I've never tried it on a non-tech I'll try it out for sure
 

TKD

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I've played almost no Melee lately and noticed I'd keep getting shined out of spacie's in-place tech: basically getting punished for dthrowing them. So I started punishing in-place tech with ftilt instead of grab and it works out a lot better. You could also do the M2K and dashdance grab to punish in-place tech to downb whiff or spot-dodge. As for non-techs, ftilt is good too, dtilt is optimal from %s it starts causing knockdown.

Yeah dthrow could lead into edgeguard/ko in super future bros lol but at %s where tilts don't cause knockdown, tilts are ineffective and jabs can be SDI'd. So it's a death combo from like mid %'s. Early %'s, guessing for usmash/regrab (safe from retaliation only though) is probably still the way to go.

Remember that dash- or boost grab > dash attack for all combo purposes as a far-reaching follow-up.

And no, you can't usmash a non-tech on reaction. The amount of time available to react is ridiculously small. It's technically possible I guess, but I'm almost 100% sure it can't be made consistent. If our usmash hit on frame 8, sheik would be god tier (it's the only decent move vs non-techs before tilt knockdown %'s).

I'm playing Brawl again btw. No one wants to play Melee with me, probably because I main Sheik lol (fighting Sheik is pretty rough; she puts you in recovery and knockdown situations way too often; that mustn't be be too fun). I do have a really good Fox though...so I'm trying to not take Melee too seriously as I can't do well without practice anyway...got 13th at my last tourney lol. Disgraceful.
 

Baky

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No one wants to play Melee with me, probably because I main Sheik lol (fighting Sheik is pretty rough; she puts you in recovery and knockdown situations way too often; that mustn't be be too fun). I do have a really good Fox though...so I'm trying to not take Melee too seriously as I can't do well without practice anyway...got 13th at my last tourney lol. Disgraceful.
I'm hoping I get good enough with Shiek to be in your shoes. My edgeguarding game is pretty decent but I'm intimidated into being defensive on stage by other high tier. I don't know... everyone seems to fear shiek but as shiek I fear everyone else xD
 

Psycho_Bayleef

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Sheik is terrifying. You honestly don't know what to expect from her. The style can change drastically mid match. So much fun to use. Can you combo ftilt>jab>ftilt>utilt>jab>jab>grab against the fastfallers, as a non-tech punish?
 

hectohertz

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against no techs (this is all stolen from a magus post), you can cover them 100% on reaction without needing resets:

- shield grab get up attack
- grab the neutral stand up
- boost grab the ground rolls

falcos ground roll is the hardest to grab on reaction, but its doable
 
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