Teaching Melee

[forward]

Recently I have found teaching people the ins and outs of melee to be more fun than actually playing the game. The challenge of opening people's minds to the game is wonderful. My days are coming to an end in melee and there is not a lot left for me to learn, and most of what is left to learn (jiggs, random low tiers) does not interest me.

I've had a real break through recently that I will go into more detail later, but I have found a way to teach tech skill.

Other things that I find myself teaching a lot are DI and the differences between regular DI and smash DI. Recovering to the stage and getting onto the stage after grabbing the ledge are also common. I also tell people what moves they should be approaching with and how to DI combos.

Does anybody else have experience with teaching melee? I feel like there is a lot of room for discussion here and I have a lot of ideas and questions I would like to bounce around. If any of you have experience with this please share.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have much experience with failures in teaching.

 

[Cactuar]

I have too much experience in teaching.

 

[forward]

Do you mean that you are failing as teacher or the people you are teaching are failing as students?

Teaching is very difficult but that is what I enjoy about it. The challenge is fun and rewarding.

OK, I'll try and explain how I've been teaching tech skill to people. I taught a friend how to do a common series of attacks with Falco. It went like this, shuffle dair, shine, sh laser. He was still new to Melee so I know this stuff is easy to us but it was difficult for him.

I started off with the shuffle dair. He had to prove to me that he could do it consistently before he could add the rest of the moves. It was difficult for him so I broke down each action that his thumbs and fingers were going to do. After I told him each move I told him to try it. He messed up.

He tried it again and he messed up again. He quickly tried again and messed up again. He began doing things that were so far off from a shuffle dair that I was telling him to stop. He told me "hold on I'll get it," and he kept trying, I told him to stop again, and he didn't listen, still trying to perform the shuffle dair. "STOP" I yelled. That got his attention. He turned to me with his eyes wide and eyebrows raised.

At this moment I had a revelation. Tech skill is mental. Though it does require fast dexterous movements with the hands the challenge comes in the mind to hand connection. Your mind must convince your hands to make each move.

After my friend stopped I told him to not move his hands at all and to just think about each action that he is going to do. After he stopped and thought about it I asked if he was ready, he was. On his second try he nailed. He got it again after that.

It's comparable to martial arts. Tell someone to try a round house and imagine they fail, with their foot landing in an awkward position. Now immediately after it lands they try to round house again from that bad, awkward stance they landed in. That's what my friend was doing in smash.

I've done this method with several people. I explain each movement that their hand needs to do to perform a certain tech skill. If they cannot perform it I tell them to not move their hands at all and only to think about each action that their hand is going to do. After they think about it they often nail the skill after 2 or 3 tries.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Sometimes when speaking of the student-teacher bond a failure from one part often involves the failure of the other one.

Teaching is somewhat tricky. Each player's learning curve is unique so the training I usually prefer is simple playing. This way each of my opponents develops his own way to fight me.

Apart from this, my learning curve went like this:

-I learned basic techniques.
-I learned priorities.
-I learned spacing.
-I learned timing.
-I'm learning everything else (basically, I'm improving my knowledge of the foregoing)

If I were to take a student and teach him Melee day by day I'd probably try to have him follow my own path.

Anyway, what I mostly fail at is teaching people the importance of timing. Learning techniques is quite easy and people can learn them on their own. Spacing is kinda easy too: as soon as people understand it's importance it's enough to watch the pro's videos and emulate them. But timings, which are probably the most mindgame-related skill to acquire remain a mystery to most players, including my students. In my personal experience, that skill can't be taught. You can only try to help students understand it on their own.

Also, comparison with martial arts is somewhat right. And the whole "mental" thing too. Button mashing isn't THAT hard after all, so it's right to assume that 99% of the difficulty in learning tech skills lies in the mental coordination required.

 

[Divinokage]

Teaching someone for me allows me to awaken the subconscious into a more conscious action... or it allows to see the true purpose of an action.

I mean there are certain things you learn that become 2nd nature eventually once you train hard enough but if you teach that same move to someone else then it just might reveal a truth that you did not see before. It's kinda of like you putting a reflection of yourself into someone else so you get to see more. It allows you to see every fault a move has and benefits so you can definitely make a better training regimen as you gain even more experience.

I think everyone eventually will need to do this to acquire an even higher level of understanding about life, etc. I'm trying to think of a good example but I can't really, I haven't really taught many people stuff... except perhaps my warrior views and a little training, talking about it makes me feel that I have much purpose and it's fulfilling... like knowing you can make a difference. So since it's fulfilling, you have love doing it and then it allows you again to enable you to create even more things.

Once I get strong enough then maybe I'll understand this better, for now it's unclear.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Sometimes I have trouble teaching, because a lot of what I do i s just set into my mind and I kind of "do it" rather than have a little knowledge database in my head where I know what such-and-such character should do in such-and-such situation.

That's actually more of a problem in Brawl, though. I find teaching a good way to organize my thoughts on certain characters and matchups and it actually helps ME improve. I can analyze my own tendencies based off of the THINGS I'm teaching people, and then look at the flaws and what I need to improve on.

I probably get more out of it than whoever I'm teaching does.

 

[Deleted member]

I've only taught a little bit. I have a reputation for being an excellent teacher but I get no satisfaction from it.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

You are a good teacher. I think you gave me advice on Marth vs Sheik, once.

Although now my Marth is way rusty ;~;

 

[forward]

Anyway, what I mostly fail at is teaching people the importance of timing. Learning techniques is quite easy and people can learn them on their own. Spacing is kinda easy too: as soon as people understand it's importance it's enough to watch the pro's videos and emulate them. But timings, which are probably the most mindgame-related skill to acquire remain a mystery to most players, including my students. In my personal experience, that skill can't be taught. You can only try to help students understand it on their own.

What exactly do you mean by timing? Timing can be part tech skill, and in that case I think it can be taught. For example, waveshine > dair combos with Falco require timing and I believe it is a timing that can be taught. Wavedashing from shield to grab is a common technique that requires timing and I believe that too can be taught, but they take practice.

I think what could be difficult to teach in relation to timing is approaching. How do you explain at what time to do an approach? That itself is more of a mind game, the timing to approach is when the opponent is not expecting it. I think that is less timing and more of understanding the opponents mind.

 

[KishPrime]

Visualization is considered a huge part of successful teaching in many sports. I've always struggled with doing it, myself, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't on average a very successful teaching technique.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

What exactly do you mean by timing? Timing can be part tech skill, and in that case I think it can be taught. For example, waveshine > dair combos with Falco require timing and I believe it is a timing that can be taught. Wavedashing from shield to grab is a common technique that requires timing and I believe that too can be taught, but they take practice.

I think what could be difficult to teach in relation to timing is approaching. How do you explain at what time to do an approach? That itself is more of a mind game, the timing to approach is when the opponent is not expecting it. I think that is less timing and more of understanding the opponents mind.

By timing I mean understanding the right moment in which you do things. Depending on the situation this can more or less involve the use of mind games. You described very well the two sides I divide timings into. However I usually consider timings as a whole because my feeling is that the underlying skill involved is the same. The only difference's the higher number of variables when your opponents reaction come into play too.

Anyway, understanding the mind game side of timings means understanding a concept first (and many people fail at doing it). Once you do understand it though, you take one of the most important steps towards professional gameplay.

Anyway, regardless of the kind of timing we're speaking of I always find it impossible to teach. Even when it's just dair + waveshine I can't really tell a student of mine "well, 37 frames after doing your Dair you shine, 7 frames after you shined you jump, then 13 frames later you wavedash". At best, I can give some rough indication ("as soon as you jump you must laser" or "wait until the last second to use Dair"). Wheter they succeed or not in understanding the timing ultimately depends on how well they develop their own senses.

 

[unknown522]

teaching melee is such a pain in the ***.

Players have to learn some things for themselves, but still it is always nice to be taught a thing or two as well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't really like teaching Melee in my home country because people that ask to be taught (at least in my neck of the woods) probably aren't good enough to be able to apply anything I say because of a lack of execution ability (they mess up too much with really easy stuff), and I don't feel like watching them do tech skill routines that I make up to teach them execution consistency.

Assigning homework is futile because they won't do it.

So now I don't bother. I'll answer questions, sure, but I don't actively point out mistakes or dissect the match for them and provide my own critique like I used to.

 

[Skler]

Everyone I teach ends up thinking I'm the biggest loser in the world because I once spent 15 minutes learning how to WD semi-consistently. That's honestly the reaction I usually get from people who ask me to show them how to get good. "I can't believe you spent any time getting better at something you do for fun! Loser loser double loser as-if what-ever get the picture duhhhhhh."

Seriously, it's 15 minutes. Plenty of people spend that much time watching porn. I spent that time whacking a different joystick.

Bam, and thus the post was saved by a dirty joke.


I do like teaching people, it's fun to get new opponents. I hate watching them do tech skill, so I just tell them what to do and then say "practice it on your own and come back once you suck less at it, that'll take you 10 minutes."

 

[SleepyK]

I've been teaching players a lot lately.
Turns out I'm pretty good at it.

KK, you have to assign homework, but they have to want to listen to you first. I usually spend a lot of time breaking down the players' pride and getting them to understand that they need the practice if they want to improve. Sometimes it requires constant scolding but usually it just requires you to be up front and honest about it.

It's also important to remember that tech drills are usually pretty boring for most people. If they practice tech skill for too long for that day, they'll get bored and mess around with other things instead of learning useful techniques. I usually recommend 5-10 minute sessions per day for them to get the important things down consistently. If they're interested enough they'll be watching videos and the like... so I also give them a method to talk to me about smash (usually through aim) for any questions they have, which provides me an opportunity to check on them and see if they're doing their tech skill practice.

I have a 10-11ish step method i put people through before i can actually answer their gameplay questions.

 

[forward]

Yesterday I was teaching a friend how to WD onto the stage with Sheik. We sat together for about 10-15 minutes trying to work out the kinks and make it as close to perfect as possible. He still wasn't getting it great and he eventually got bored, but when I saw him play against people later he was trying to use it in his matches so I know it helped him some. I just hope that he continues to practice it because it would help his game a lot (you're basically not good with sheik if you can't do this well.)

In regards to teaching timing, all I can really do is sit with people and tell them whether they do something too slow or too fast. Another thing that helps is to perform the action yourself and tell them to listen to the rhythm of it on the controller. If they can hear the rhythm they can repeat it themselves more easily.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've been teaching players a lot lately.
Turns out I'm pretty good at it.

KK, you have to assign homework, but they have to want to listen to you first.

I generally assume they want to listen if they're asking me questions about how to improve. Perhaps this approach is flawed.

I usually spend a lot of time breaking down the players' pride and getting them to understand that they need the practice if they want to improve. Sometimes it requires constant scolding but usually it just requires you to be up front and honest about it.

I do this. I think honesty may be an issue though. People don't like it when they say, "I think I'm like average" and then I reply by laughing hysterically.

It's also important to remember that tech drills are usually pretty boring for most people. If they practice tech skill for too long for that day, they'll get bored and mess around with other things instead of learning useful techniques. I usually recommend 5-10 minute sessions per day for them to get the important things down consistently.

They never want to do the important things even for a short period so I don't bother. I can only tell them, "Learn to dash out of your throw so you can combo characters when they DI away" so many times.

If they're interested enough they'll be watching videos and the like... so I also give them a method to talk to me about smash (usually through aim) for any questions they have, which provides me an opportunity to check on them and see if they're doing their tech skill practice.

I don't think I disagree with anything you'd said at all, only I'd remark that this approach is probably only effective on people who have a sort of willpower and drive. Since nobody in GTA beyond the people who are already good have any sort of willpower or drive, it's pointless to try and help them to improve.

We also have had some genuinely stupid people that actually lack the ability to learn or think about this game critically.

 

[SleepyK]

You can foster drive and make players want to improve.

especially since you're so cute.

"If you practice tech skill, you can come over to my house again."

i'd become silent wolf

 

[forward]

KK no offense but I get the impression you are failing on your part as a teacher. It's ok though, I have failed a lot as a teacher and it's through the failure that I have found methods that are effective.

Some people are too intimidated to ask questions. Some people are too proud to admit they want advice. More frequently I have found people receptive to my advice and I think it's due to how I present it. When I notice something could be improved on, a pattern that is making them predictable, etc, I usually point it out and talk about it before I give them advice.

Talking about the game in specific areas that the student is weak will help them improve those weak areas and become more receptive to your advice. People need to learn this game on their own, we can't directly tell them all the lessons we have learned in this game and expect them to internalize it. They can't internalize a sweet spot without practice, without learning the lessons of getting knocked off the stage countless times. What our job is as teachers is to point them in the right direction. Make them learn what they need to learn to improve. Save them time. Help them learn 4 months of trial and error experimenting and tell them the best combo to do.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I haven't tried to teach anybody in person in a long time. If I did now, I would adopt a Socratic approach; rather than telling people what they're doing wrong or telling them what they should be doing, I would ask them questions and try to guide them to a good answer on their own.

I really like this approach because I know that the pupil will understand why something is good or bad; when they know what the rationale is behind something, I believe it makes that knowledge easier to commit to memory and it also lets them recognize solutions to similar problems, whereas if I just told somebody what I think their good options are in a given situation, they would take that as an isolated piece of information.

I admittedly am guilty of frequently just telling people what I think is good. For example, there is an ICs main who has sent me many PMs with questions about ICs that he should be able to solve on his own, yet I always answered them for him. In retrospect, I should have replied with something like "What do you think?" and helped him slowly reconstruct part of the ICs metagame on his own.

This doesn't work for some of the most basic things, like tech skill, but fortunately, it seems like Forward has a nice approach for that part of the learning process.


On another note, is anybody here familiar with Lemov's taxonomy? I haven't read it yet, but it's on my to-read-list. It's a book in which the author goes over 49 techniques that are helpful for teaching in a classroom setting. Although I'm sure much of it isn't applicable to teaching smash for obvious reasons, a few of the techniques in it definitely are, such as not letting a pupil opt out of a problem and making a student repeat a type problem to make sure he is capable of solving it.

 

[ArcNatural]

KYUPUFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Fly you don't understand what it's like trying to help him . He has all these ideas (from stupid to good). But he never does them unless they are people worse than him. He can't commit to intelligent decisions in important matches.

 

[Slhoka]

This topic is extremely interesting.
I can't do much to contribute, as I'm a pretty bad teacher, except for very basic things. However, I'd like to have more details about your teaching strategies (for instance SleepyK's 11-step method).

I admittedly am guilty of frequently just telling people what I think is good. For example, there is an ICs main who has sent me many PMs with questions about ICs that he should be able to solve on his own, yet I always answered them for him. In retrospect, I should have replied with something like "What do you think?" and helped him slowly reconstruct part of the ICs metagame on his own.

By any chance, could this guy happen to be a French player ?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Ha, no, it's not Ashu. He seems like he has a good head on his shoulders.

 

[Slhoka]

Ha, no, it's not Ashu. He seems like he has a good head on his shoulders.

Oh, I'm kinda disappointed, considering how often he talks about you and Wobbles. Also, your second sentence made me laugh a bit, but shhh, he's really nice.

 

[ArcNatural]

Ha, no, it's not Ashu. He seems like he has a good head on his shoulders.

It's KyuPuff right.

 

[KirbyKaze]

peef .