Pokkén Tournament Taunt-Sucker Punch: a Weavile combo thread

[Life]

I posted this in general discussion, but it's big enough that I thought it deserved its own post.

Notation should be self-evident. If I'm not making myself understood, let me know. All tests were run against another Weavile; certain other combos might be available on larger characters, which I might test at a later point. Shrug.

This also doesn't include combos into burst (yet) or combos involving assists. When in doubt, mashing A is usually not an awful idea, though it doesn't confirm from some things.

For Field Phase, you should be aware that AAAAA does more damage than XXXX and enters Duel Phase, basically making it a higher damage version of the same function. sideY ice traps into Ax5 are ultimately a bit less damage than raw Ax5 due to scaling. JumpY projectile combos into things if you can land it; might be worth learning to aim it at someone caught in sideY. JumpY into backY is a combo for 83 damage and Phase Shift, which isn't too bad, but jumpY into all A hits is 112. JumpY into wait into forwardY combos for 70, making it both hard and minimally useful, although there may be situations where backY or Ax5 cannot reach.

As for Duel Phase:

Confirms from X: The best confirm I have off X is XX YXforwardA, which deals 158 damage. XAx5 is a much less technical option which deals 154. Using YYYX instead of YX deals 155 and is a little easier; mashing Y gets 153, meaning it's generally inferior to XAx5. However, XAx5 is the only one of these combos that keeps your opponent in front of you, while the rest will send them behind you, so it may be a better option if you want to keep good stage positioning.

tl;dr for X: XX YXforwardA, unless you want to keep them in front of you, in which case use XAx5, which is also easier to execute and does almost as much damage.

Confirms from Y: Mashing Y alone does 108 damage. At no point in that sequence can you mash A to extend the combo, unless you think the opponent won't hold block. YX does not confirm. YYX forwardA deals 113; YYXAx5 connects and deals 131, making it significantly better than all previous options. YYYXAx5 does not confirm.

tl;dr for Y: Use YYXAx5. Don't touch the control stick.

Confirms from forwardX: forwardXforwardA does 108. forwardXAx5 does 130, making it superior. You're probably better off trying to confirm a Y in these situations, as forwardY has similar reach and identical combo properties AFAICT.

Confirms from downX: None. Opponent hits the ground before you can act.

Confirms from downY: None, although it can be used to condition them into shielding, whereupon you cancel into backX, cancel that with R, and go into the grab mixup.

Confirms from upX: downX confirms off this for 90 and a crossup. upX into mashing Y does 138. upX into YYYXforwardA also does 138; upX into YYYXAx5 does 160 and is likely to push them into a wall (it carries nearly all the way across Magikarp Festival's longer axis).

Confirms from upY: There's that one tutorial combo that goes upY into icicle into forwardA, but that only deals a measly 82.
I can't get upY into icicle jump forward into Y/X to work, but that would be really neat if it did. Maybe on a bigger character? :/ It's certainly scary looking, though. You get plenty of frame advantage doing it if you go for X, but not enough to reach them while still in hitstun.

Confirms from A: None that I know of. Mashing A raw is 122 damage.

Confirms from upA: Only mashing A, which deals 120. Can't really do much else. You can charge A for mixups if you think they won't hold block.

Confirms from forwardA: Nope. Although come to think of it, I wonder if some of these combos ending in forwardA could be extended with a cancel... doesn't look like it, though.

Confirms from backA: See confirms from X, since this is the second move that comes out when you hit XX.

Confirms from jumpX: Any X or Y combo, downX, downY, upY. Looks like it.

Confirms from jumpY: Y, but due to the multihit nature of jumpY, it's a bit unreliable. downX also works.

Confirms from jumpA: Ooh, the famous icicle. I can't get enough frame advantage to hit anything off this.

Can't find anything for throw, charge attack, or for after a burst. Plenty of things confirm into burst, though.

tl;dr most combos are best ended by mashing A. X, Y, and anything that leads into them (jump X, backA) are your goals while doing neutral, assuming you're not just gonna do a single hit into burst or something.

This is all I've got. Suggestions? Comments?

 

[Life]

Double post rather than an edit 'cause I'd like to save room on the off chance this thread gets very large.

But also I found out a silly assist combo. Activate Cubone -> hit confirm into entering Synergy Burst -> second Cubone hit drags them into you -> Burst Attack. That's right--any time you have full meter and a Cubone, any time you can confirm into Cubone, you can confirm into burst.

EDIT: Do be careful with this in Field Phase. Your burst could knock them out of the bone's flight path.

EDIT2: Nvm, you can shield the synergy burst for some reason. AI is just dumb and gets hit by it. Might be worth trying to jank out someone that hasn't figured it out, though.

 

[IsmaR]

I've gotten some flashy stuff off of Icicle Crash/canceling before, so I'll try to recreate a few of them/document them here.

Just as a small note, Weavile in Synergy Burst is able to create/use 2 Icicle Crashes per jump/before landing.

 

[IsmaR]

Disclaimer - Some of these have some variables (damage scaling was inconsistent on multihit moves, specifically the first hits of YYYY, AAAAA, and Midair Y).

Now then, I'll be touching base on this specifically:

Confirms from upY: There's that one tutorial combo that goes upY into icicle into forwardA, but that only deals a measly 82.
I can't get upY into icicle jump forward into Y/X to work, but that would be really neat if it did. Maybe on a bigger character? :/ It's certainly scary looking, though. You get plenty of frame advantage doing it if you go for X, but not enough to reach them while still in hitstun.

Firstly, Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/away) > Nosedive (R in the air) > forward A (AKA the Combo Dojo one) only does 82 if you land a single hit of the Knock Off. You need to wait or even walk forward a bit in order for the opponent to fall so you can both hits of Knock Off (also lowers their Synergy Burst, so it has a specific niche), dealing a total of 106. Secondly, jumping towards them with Icicle Crash works if they're up against a wall. Both have some very frame specific input, but I've learned to pull them off consistently.

I'll be listing my findings/attempts here (watch out for massive wall of text/edits). All of these have been tested/confirmed as true combos.

These variations of the Combo Dojo string mentioned above also work:
Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > slight walk forward > YYYY = *112
*depending on if you're near a wall, it will also cause a wall bounce, netting an additional 30 damage (142 total)

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/away) > Nosedive > **AAAA = 124
**just like the above, you need to wait to be able to land every single hit

Against a wall and jumping towards them with Icicle Crash:
Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled behind you/away from opponent for jump) > Midair Y > YYYY (opponent falls to the ground before last hit/anything else connect) > 100

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled behind you/away from opponent for jump ) Jump > Midair Y > down X= 102

Assist specific:
Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (variable/up to preference of effect) = (Snivy) 80 + leaves opponent in perfect position for additional follow ups (will add/edit in later)

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (variable/up to preference of effect) = (Rotom) 82 + Speed decreased

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (variable/up to preference of effect) = (Reshiram) 146 + Attack decreased

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (variable/up to preference of effect) = (Magneton) 100 + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened

Assist specific + against a wall:

Spoiler: Assist set to Magneton

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > forward A = 136 + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened (stacked twice, one for the assist, one for Knock Off).

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > *AAAAA = 142 + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened
*requires you to either move back or wait a little bit after landing, otherwise Agility makes you run past/miss the opponent completely)

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > back A > **down X = 144 + phase shift + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > back A > *YYYYY = 145 + phase shift + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened (stacked twice, one for the assist, one for Knock Off)
**Damage scaling makes the above two virtually the same

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > YYYYY = 173 + wall bounce/phase shift + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened

During Synergy Burst:
Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > forward A = *142
*as always, slight delay is needed for both hits of Knock Off/forward A

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Jump > Midair Y > YYYY = 139 (base damage, +30 with wall splat) + phase shift

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Sonic Slash (Burst Attack ) = 182 + phase shift

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Sonic Slash = 203 + phase shift

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled behind you/away from opponent for jump) > Midair Y > YYYYY = *155 base (+30 on wall splat) + phase shift
*requires strict timing to land every single hit

Synergy Burst + against a wall:

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled behind you/away from opponent for jump) > Midair Y > Low Y > AAAA = 203 (+30 for wall splat) + phase shift

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Jump > Sonic Slash = *246 + phase shift
*must wait in order to get max amount of hits on Sonic Slash's hit (should be 14 hits total, 8 before Sonic Slash)

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled behind you/away from opponent for jump) > Midair Y > Sonic Slash = 246 + phase shift

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Jump > **Midair Y > *Sonic Slash = 259 + phase shift
**must time it perfectly to get all 3 hits of Midair Y for maximum damage output, I recommend waiting between jumps

During Synergy Burst + Assist:

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) = 128 + Attack decrease + Synergy Burst weakened

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > Forward A = 170 (+30 for wall splat) + phase shift + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened (stacked twice, once for assist, once for Knock Off)

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Magneton) > Sonic Slash = 181 + phase shift + Attack decreased + Synergy Burst weakened

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > anti air Assist (Reshiram) > Forward A = 228 (+30 for wall splat) + phase shift + Attack decreased


-

Will continue tomorrow/later. The site keeps crashing on me + maintenance is about to happen, and I've gotta get up early tomorrow.~

 

[Arkaizer]

I've been trying to figure out a way to combo into weavile's shoryuken (up A) and I finally got it. the timing's a little specific but it's pretty satisfying to pull off
(From anywhere in duel phase) up Y>cancel icicle crash>jump angled towards opponent for hit>nosedive>dash forward>up A>charged A for 154 damage non-burst, and 177 burst mode, and causes a phase shift. If you're next to the wall you don't even need to dash forward, and it causes a wall hit phase shift ending with 220 damage/243 burst (you need to wait a fraction of a second for the second hit of charge A to connect)
probably will be hard to do online though

 

[IsmaR]

Tried it myself. Just to point out, an alternative to dash stepping forward, you can use A(gility) to get in the perfect position for the up A.

Seems a little less frame tight for the input/easier to space, which will make it easier to pull off online.

 

[Arkaizer]

oh wow, didn't think of that. I'll start doing that now, thanks.

 

[Life]

Finally, a hard upY punish! ^___^ (By which I mean one that's on par with the rest of Weavile's standard combos. I know you did work, IsmaR.)

EDIT: I'm also getting only 142 damage from this combo sometimes. This is because upA is a two-hit move and I'm only getting the second; I believe that extra 12 damage is from getting both hits, which means you might actually have to wait a tiny bit (I'm using the Agility version since it's easier to execute).

 

[Arkaizer]

actually, it's from the second part, the charge after doing the up A. But yeah, when you're using the agility version, you have to time it properly or else you get the 142 instead.

 

[Life]

So it misses a hit of the second part of the move? That's interesting.

 

[IsmaR]

In addition to the initial hit, the first hit of Ice Punch has an AoE that won't connect if the opponent is too high up, IIRC.

A lot of the air combos I listed similarly involve either walking forward slightly, waiting between Icicle Crash jumps, or just timing/spacing things perfectly (sometimes all 3). Some of the combos I've gotten with assists (Reshiram in particular) were as strict as timing gets.

The most difficult was this one:

Up Y > cancel ~ Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Jump > **Midair Y > **Sonic Slash = 259 + phase shift
*must time it perfectly to get all 3 hits of Midair Y for maximum damage output, I recommend waiting between jumps
**must also time Burst so that Sonic Slash gets the maximum amount of hits possible on start up

Thankfully the payoff is enormous.

 

[Life]

Aw, someone saw fit to sticky! Thank you!

Today I managed upY -> Icicle Crash (horizontal) -> dash forward -> upY. I wonder if this might be useful? Gonna have to practice a lot before I can even get complete combos to measure damage output.

EDIT: (upY Icicle Crash)x2 deals only 79 damage and forces phase shift. Hm.

EDIT2: upY Icicle Crash (downback) dash forward upY Icicle Crash (downforward) midair Y combos. EDIT3: You get a Y afterwards, but YYYX immediately forces phase shift. Still testing for other stuff. EDIT4: You can get X, but again, immediately forces phase shift. I haven't managed A, but given scaling, I think I'm going to have to give up on this one. It's good for training for the upA version, though. That feels like a breeze, comparatively.

EDIT5: Testing Taunt. Taunt into forwardA does 150; taunt into mash A does 162. In wall bounce situations, YAx5 was the best punish I could find, clocking in at 195! EDIT6: In mid-field situations where the final hit of A hits them into a wall, you get Taunt Ax5 YAx5 for a whopping 217! Taunt is really good, guys.

 

[IsmaR]

The Up Y > Icicle Crash > Up Y is similar to Astonish Looping for Gengar, in that it doesn't do much damage but is useful for forcing a phase shift.

It's possible to continue the 2nd Up Y > Icicle Crash, but only if the first hit of the Icicle Crash hits (more timing specific shenanigans).

 

[Life]

That's just it, though--why go to all the hassle of looping for a second time when you could do the Ice Punch combo for nearly twice as much damage and still shift phases?

 

[IsmaR]

The same reason you'd go for an Astonish Loop as Gengar.

Stalling for time (out) and resetting positioning when you're in a significant lead.

 

[Arkaizer]

If you manage to land a raw ice punch (or mix someone up with Poke "not-actually-a-combo" Combo 3) with opponent near the wall, the optimal followup seems to be YAx5 (or just Ax5 if you wouldn't reach with Y). Causes a wall explosion and ends with 265/281 (burst) damage. Pretty neat

 

[IsmaR]

How close to the wall are you talking? I can't get them to not fall from the last few hits of Ax5 (or even get Ax5 to land without Y first)

Was however able to get these:
Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A (AKA Poke "not actually a combo" Combo, which you can keep pressing Y for) > Y > Burst = 267

Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A > Forward X > Burst Attack = 262

Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A > Y > X > Burst Attack = 270

Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A > Forward X > AAAAA = 213/244 + 30 for Wall Splat = 243/274 (Burst)

and some weird examples of damage scaling actually affecting Weavile, but taking the Poke Combo out of the equation:

Up A > A > Y > X > Burst Attack = 281

Up A > Up A > Forward X > AAAAA = 235/53 + 30 for Wall Splat = 265/283 (Burst)

I also found out you can apparently cause phase shifts with your Burst Attack (landing all the hits) BEFORE the animation.

Spoiler

 

[Jiggly]

How close to the wall are you talking? I can't get them to not fall from the last few hits of Ax5 (or even get Ax5 to land without Y first)

Was however able to get these:
Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A (AKA Poke "not actually a combo" Combo, which you can keep pressing Y for) > Y > Burst = 267

Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A > Forward X > Burst Attack = 262

Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A > Y > X > Burst Attack = 270

Down Y > Down Y > Up A > A > Forward X > AAAAA = 213/244 + 30 for Wall Splat = 243/274 (Burst)

and some weird examples of damage scaling actually affecting Weavile, but taking the Poke Combo out of the equation:

Up A > A > Y > X > Burst Attack = 281

Up A > Up A > Forward X > AAAAA = 235/53 + 30 for Wall Splat = 265/283 (Burst)

I also found out you can apparently cause phase shifts with your Burst Attack (landing all the hits) BEFORE the animation.

Spoiler

Down Y > Down Y isnt actually a combo sadly, you can shield between the hits :/

Gonna need to test out the Icicle Crash looping tomorrow, see how useful it is

One of the combos I use a lot when in DP in the middle of the stage is Aerial X > XX, YYY, Cancel Forward X, A, AAA. Nets a total of 177 damage at max depending on how many hits of Aerial X you get.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm aware, was just responding to the "mix up" (aka if your opponent doesn't shield/know it's not a true combo) referred to in the post above.

On that note, I just hit the motherload of all massive damage/optimal punishes:

Against a wall:
Charge X > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Charge X > Y~AAAAA = 252/269 (Burst) + 30 for Wall Splat

Charged Counterattack > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Up A > Charged A (Ice Punch) = 255/271 (Burst) + 30 for Wall Splat

Charged Counterattack > Icicle Crash ~ Jump (angled up/toward opponent for hit) > Nosedive > Charge X > Y~AAAA = 259/279 (Burst) +30 for Wall Splat

 

[Arkaizer]

IsmaR they slid off? weird. I tested it on various characters and it worked. (doesn't work on the mewtwos AFAICT) as for spacing, it should work as long as the second hit of ice punch causes them to hit the wall. either way, it's functionally identical to the Up A>A>forward X>5xA. that counter attack wall combo is pretty crazy tho, good find.

EDIT: Not sure if this is a known thing, but from the looks of it, the damage you take is reduced by about 30% when you have about 1/4th of your health left. (Not exactly when your health bar turns red, but pretty close to the same time)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Taunt -> Night Slash's best follow-up combo near a wall (for a wall combo) appears to be charged Charge Attack -> X -> Forward-A. I can't check now, but I believe it does 224 without a Critical Hit or the lowered Defense on a Synergy Bursted opponent via Taunt.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Unless you're shooting for a Phase Shift, never end a combo with Fury Swipes if you can help it. There is always a link into Knock Off that does comparable damage and gives you a knockdown for much better pressure. For example, after a successful Night Slash, YX -> Forward-A does 146 altogether, compared to 138 (iirc) with Fury Swipes. Also, if you find yourself using Fury Swipes, unless that final slash is gonna KO, don't do the final hit. This knocks the opponent down and gives you better pressure options. The only significant niche for Fury Swipes seems to be being the fastest option out of Agility (by far, too) but that has nothing to do with combos.

If the opponent is right next to the wall when you land a charged Counter Attack, it will stick the opponent to the wall for ages. This does about 250 altogether with no modifiers and doesn't cause a Phase Shift by itself (raises the count by 9):

Charged Counter Attack -> walk forward slightly -> charged Counter Attack -> X -> Forward-A.

Because these combos end in Knock Off, it also guarantees that the opponent will not have a full Synergy Gauge afterward, too. That's really important for Weavile.

Also, a super-stylish combo that requires great timing, does no damage (about 96, I think), and uses up the whole Duel Phase counter: 8Y -> A -> 1B -> R -> walk forward -> 8Y -> A -> 1B -> R -> walk forward slightly -> 6B -> Y -> 4YYYY.