Tampora 2.0 (April 29th - May 1st) Finland

[ccst]

So the excuse when I faced Skinutski again was like: "ccst wasn't supposed to win over Schwa." Excuse me, why did you seed so horrible, that is not a legit john. -.-
Think about that till next time, please...

 

[Paju]

So the excuse when I faced Skinutski again was like: "ccst wasn't supposed to win over Schwa." Excuse me, why did you seed so horrible, that is not a legit john. -.-
Think about that till next time, please...

You can't be serious, can you?

Bracket clearly isn't seeded horrible if you can possibly meet a player from same pool as you (only 4 pools) at the 3rd round of winner's bracket and that is also only if you (as 3rd seed) can manage to win player who got 2nd seed. If you get 3rd seed and Skinutski gets 1st seed you will be on the same side of the bracket. When seeding bracket from pool results, the seeders won't expect anything upsetting happening (like in your example 3rd seed winning over 2nd seed) but they seed bracket according to the pool results. And if the bracket would've gone according to the pool results, you wouldn't have faced Skinutski again on bracket. And you also wouldn't have faced your brother so you really can't complain about that either... I don't even know where you got that john thing from, that just is how the bracket works. But if you want to call that a john, then it definelty is a legit john lol.

 

[Evomies]

This represents the feeling this thread gives me atm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmzXJCZoD-E

 

[Armada]

I had a great time at the tournament and during the trip =)

But the drama need to calm down.
The brackets was bad.

I said I could help you guys even before the tournament started. Then when Im eating (at the tournament) I heard the bracket will be starting in the next 10-15 min. I choosed to sleep a bit longer before pools cause we arrvived a bit late so I couldn´t stop eating (cause I were really hungry)

Then when Im coming down I saw the whole bracket was made. I understood that I couldn´t change the entire barcket (it dosen´t take 5 mins like some people try to say).

That was the reason why I only changed Pepito/Nipi. That also proves that no one even listned and didn´t even cared to ask me when I could have fixed it easy.

It´s not easy to just come down say the barcket completly sucks when I know the tournament was runing late (both teams/singles was finshied around 2-3 I think).

But I really wanna go back if someone houst a tournament again and I hope the rest of the Sweds wanna go with me if they have the chance.

But please ask me to make the entire bracket if you need it (this time I have to say you needed it for sure) and I can spend the time it takes to give the community the bracket they deserve (I does this at a lot of tournaments).

Edit: This number things (in brackets) is not something you can just put in in the smae spots for sure. That was why a lot of extra contry matches + people from the same pools was created cause I gues the "numbers" was something that people put to much focus on.

One example: The second best player will be playing against the 7th best in the WQF and the third will be playing against the 6th best. If number 2 and 7 was is from the same country and 3 and 6 is ans the skill level between number 6/7 is small you should change it.

This things is a bit hard to explain on internet but I hope you understand my point.

 

[Aniolas]

The stagelist in Beast 2 sickens me that I'm probably not coming solely because of that reason. That is a shame since I'd otherwise be glad to come :<

The Brawl videos are being uploaded at the very moment.

The stage list we will use at BEAST II is the same that is used in basically every european tournament.

Sucks that you hate it so much that you won't attend tournies anywhere outside Finland.

 

[leffen]

LOL oh yeah, kongo being on and not RC / Brinstar was the stupidest thing ever, its one of the most unbalanced stages ever.

But having 10+ timeouts must be really fun man, I understand why you dont like a balanced stageset.

 

[Loota]

The stage list we will use at BEAST II is the same that is used in basically every european tournament.

Sucks that you hate it so much that you won't attend tournies anywhere outside Finland.

I just don't know why that crappy stagelist has gotten so popular. We are making the game more simple counterpick wise and taking depth away. I don't know if people have been influenced by the other traditional fightning games or what but Melee is now a plain player vs. player trying to minimize the effect of the stages, counterpicking is basically pointless at most times. We are playing a wonderful game full of different stages and strategies but we resort to play basically in four slightly different Dream Lands + FD & PS (which is still legal just because people could still call this a game of counterpicking lol) which is just a terrible waste of potential. The game isn't fun anymore. The platform fighter I loved has now turned into a traditional player vs. player game.

I don't travel abroad to play Melee anymore, Brawl is my main interest now :>

But having 10+ timeouts must be really fun man, I understand why you dont like a balanced stageset.

Running the timer is a legit strategy, counterpick better next time then.

 

[Paju]

I just don't know why that crappy stagelist has gotten so popular. We are making the game more simple counterpick wise and taking depth away. I don't know if people have been influenced by the other traditional fightning games or what but Melee is now a plain player vs. player trying to minimize the effect of the stages, counterpicking is basically pointless at most times. We are playing a wonderful game full of different stages and strategies but we resort to play basically in four slightly different Dream Lands + FD & PS (which is still legal just because people could still call this a game of counterpicking lol) which is just a terrible waste of potential. The game isn't fun anymore. The platform fighter I loved has now turned into a traditional player vs. player game.

I don't travel abroad to play Melee anymore, Brawl is my main interest now :>

You couldn't have said it better. I agree with you 100%

 

[Smasher89]

YEa the stagelist which had alot of depth is kinda removed and now the only thing that "works" is using the opponents mistakes in their counterpicks. Abusing puff and cf for timeouts is too easy with this current ruleset, I do abuse this even though it´s not as fun as playing against a Fox on corneria/Onett but the rules is like how they are, promoting camping

 

[bËst^]

I think it is time say something: (mostly for our neighbours)

first of all about recent posts: I don't mind the small stage list either, but after all... I really don't mind. It is not the bËst way to play melee, but as long as the main point is to have fun and get some awesome experiences and meet new people.. that is not a reason to stop travelling.

About the tournamen: Like we all know, the were a lot of problems with tournament: some because of lack of experience, some because the lack of luck (like the boat accident). But after all: I had very fun time and that is the main reason to enter into tournaments. So I got what I were after so I'm happy.

Shoutz!

Armada: I have no idea why you are so freaking good... I have no Idea whats the specian thing you got to make it look so easy... I have no idea why your gameplay is close to perfect.. All I know is that I got ***** BADLY! Next time would like to play (=learn) more!

Aniolas: Only matches at pool. Good dittos and you were better. Should have played more .

Android + Smasher: Very good use of rest on doubles! If I had to name one reason why we lost to you guys, it must be that rest-kills

Rocky: (response to your post) Yeah... I had very bad time on melee singles.. I had no idea which char to use and alo I chose very bad tournement to try something new. But it was awesome to see you man!

MikeHaggar: That last knee... out of nowhere . Good games and hope I'll get my revenge some day!

IVP: No chances against you

Pepito: I really enjoied playing you at friday! You are nice guy and good player. I didn't get my revenge, but maybe next time. Should have tried how I would have done with the IC:s

xzx: Lawl ain't my game *__*. First match was tight though. Good player

Other Swedish guys: It was awesome to get you on Finland! I hope this wasn't the last time! I would lve to smash with you again some day!

About my own gameplay: Like I said on rocky's feedback... My gameplay was far from good through entire tournament... I had no idea which char to use because I had pretty much dumped my main char of life (IC's) due to lack of boredom. But at the end of saturday night I got a little spark to repractice my IC:s. Dunno what will happen, but next time I hope I can give better effort!

Anyways: Thank a lot guys for visiting us!

 

[Armada]

Draver: The problem is that stages like Kongo (and way more stages) helps thw worse player to win. It´s way to easy to timeout a lot of chars on stages like this.

That kind of ruleset force you to play chars you don´t wanna play (in many situations). Ofc you can practice more chars and have them as strong seondaries or what ever.

The metagame in melee have become way more "gay" the last year/years and with stages like Kongo I think the metagame will become even more gay and then Melee will be dead for real. Im not surprised when players like Remen dosen´t wanna play more and seriously trust me on this point even more will quit in the end with stages like Kongo.

In the begining it maybe sounds good with "awesome comunterpicks" but you have to think about the result before you clearly can judge the situation.

How long time do you honestly think it takes before the "fun part" is gone?
I can play a couple matches against you at Kongo and you never wanna play the game again

 

[ajp_anton]

What about this bracket? Did it in 5 mins, but can't see any obvious flaws with it. It's impossible to meet someone from your pool until round 4 (winners semi). It also has some room for moving people around, maybe the losers side can be improved (didn't look at it at all).

Pool number . seed

1.1
4.4

7.2
6.3

8.1
5.4

2.2
3.3


4.1
1.4

3.2
2.3

5.1
8.4

6.2
7.3


2.1
3.4

8.2
5.3

7.1
6.4

1.2
4.3


3.1
2.4

4.2
1.3

6.1
7.4

5.2
8.3

 

[-LzR-]

So the excuse when I faced Skinutski again was like: "ccst wasn't supposed to win over Schwa." Excuse me, why did you seed so horrible, that is not a legit john. -.-
Think about that till next time, please...

There is a reason why we choose certain ppl to handle the brackets and seedings. Because they know what they are doing.

 

[ccst]

Still really upset; people you face in the pools are people you shouldn't meet in the brackets, no matter how many pools you have and stuff like that. Seriously don't do this mistake again, almost every Swede got something bad...

 

[-LzR-]

It's your fault for playing well then.

 

[stelzig]

Draver: The problem is that stages like Kongo (and way more stages) helps thw worse player to win. It´s way to easy to timeout a lot of chars on stages like this.

Is the timing out on KJ64 also a problem in doubles? I've been wondering why it's not allowed in teams for a while now.

 

[-LzR-]

Because doubles eventually lead to 1v1.
And timing out is not a problem, especially in Melee where it's usually unpractical to do.

 

[stelzig]

Not every doubles game leads to 1v1. I'm not sure a 1v1 on final stock potentially happening really warrants a ban of a stage. One thing is when it's from the very beginning of the match, but really if someone stalls/camps in the ocassional 1v1 at the end of teams then that's something i'd think most people can handle without being too annoyed/bored.

 

[saska]

I like games where winner is decided during the match and not at the stage selection screen.

 

[RTpmwe]

I like games where winner is decided during the match and not at the stage selection screen.

This

10char

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind removing PS too.

And possibly FD and FoD, but that's never going to happen and they're not THAT bad anyway :d

 

[Loota]

@Armada: Help the worse player to win at a stagelist that favors some players for wrong reasons? Also trying to define what fun is isn't going to take you anywhere since it is impossible.

The thing is, the best players aren't the players that are best on neutral stages. You're basing the word "worse" solely on this miserable stagelist we are using now which is just wrong. The best players can play at any stage and adapt to the situation, there is no excuse to this. It isn't meant that you should be able to play and win with any character or stage combination, after all, we are playing a game heavily based on counterpicking. This is a very unique system that is, to my knowledge, exclusive to Smash but we are we taking this away just because people don't want to adapt or learn the stages, or even bother learning to counterpick. We're lost massive amounts of potential playing only on neutral stages + PS.

The thing I hate with the Smash community is to call everything gay that has to be learned in order to play on it, like FD or the like. It is totally ok to prefer neutrals over counterpicks but it has gone beyond that that we don't have practically any counterpicks to play on. Also running the timer isn't gay, it is totally legit and it can easily be prevented by counterpicking right like a good player should be doing. Kongo Jungle is a totally viable counterpick, people just don't like it that much and resort to call it gay. We don't measure player skill only in the actual match but also in the character selection screen via counterpicking. Essentially, you can't be good without the skill to counterpick right but so much depth has been taken away by removing many viable stages such as Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise and Poké Floats. The best player is the one who can play on all of the viable stages and adapt to the counterpick situation, not the one who does best on this artificial stagelist that only does take depth away.

If you don't like a larger stagelist with stages such as those I mentioned above, I'm not sure if you're playing the right game. Hell, R3m3n probably wasn't playing the right game if he is indeed quitting the game because of as stupid reason as more viable stages in a platform fighter >_> It doesn't matter a thing if the results vary with more counterpicks to no counterpicks at all since, guess what, there is no reason they are banned aside from "deyre gay, my falco can't combo on it". Why do we ban depth with no logical reasoning at all? If the reason behind this is that some "good" players don't like to play on them and don't bother to even learn them, they should not be playing Smash at all.

Stop ruining our game and go play something else if you can't play the game to it's fullest competitive wise (not exactly targeted to anyone). Smash is not a traditional fighter so stop trying to make it one.

I can play you as much as you want in Kongo Jungle, I like that stage :]

 

[-LzR-]

I heavily agree with the post above. The community is limiting the game. The thing you call skill is the skill YOU have. But not what others have. If it isn't broken, don't ban it.

 

[Smasher89]

Timeout strategies is also perfecly viable on dreamland(maybe battlefield too), for some reason it hasn´t gone banned (yes there won´t be any samus/peach players for example beating me there, just to show that point).
Counterpicking against certain characters in the "Only neutrals" ruleses is very imbalanced, and "neutrals" only do also not create more fun ormatches/ matches that you really feel that you win (for example beating a peach on mute city feels very nice to do in tournament for example, and is way more legit then just timing her out on DL64+Battlefield).

But this isn´t really a stagediscussion thread, the ones who agree that the stagelist now is broken, prove it by bringing your broken strategies and just win.

Beat my 4 stock left on KJ64(DL64) when timer stroke zero against Samo for example.


Might write some shoutouts later, was fun travelling to Finland even though there was some problems with the tournament =)





EDIT: Following blindly to place a player based by placing and pool is unbalanced, the ones playing their matches last can just use this to calcylate who to face, and therefore see if it´s worth it or not to lose to get an easier opponent/bracket.

 

[Armada]

"Also trying to define what fun is"

Sorry but almost everyone in the community agree with my on that point so try again.

"Also running the timer isn't gay, it is totally legit and it can easily be prevented by counterpicking right like a good player should be doing"

Come back after you have been playing against m2ks puff and tell me this.

"I'm not sure if you're playing the right game"

I don´t care if you are sure or not cause Im and that´s what matters.
Please give my the perfect ruleset in your eyes =)

"the reason behind this is that some "good" players don't like to play on them and don't bother to even learn them, they should not be playing Smash at all"

You have no idea what your are talking about at all so keep your mouth shut.

But yeah I guess some random player have to tell me how good Im

Smasher: You have never been close to time out me at DL =)

 

[Wake]

Armada, what about the gameplay is becoming "gay"? Whenever I watch the top players like you, most recently at Pound 5, it is just amazing and awesome, and it seems like it's just getting better and better. You, PP, Hbox, M2K, Mango, Amsah, Axe... all the top players play so amazingly that I guess I can't find the "gay" haha if that makes sense...

 

[Smasher89]

Smasher: You have never been close to time out me at DL =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuQzoKrp-34
3 Sec into the match, over 9000 times to aggressive after that.

 

[Nihonjin]

The best player is the one who can play on all of the viable stages and adapt to the counterpick situation

What do you consider viable..?

There is no reason they are banned aside from "deyre gay, my falco can't combo on it". Why do we ban depth with no logical reasoning at all? If the reason behind this is that some "good" players don't like to play on them and don't bother to even learn them, they should not be playing Smash at all.

You don't know what you're talking about. Straw manning does not help your argument either.

Anyway, before I rip your entire argument apart, I need your definition of viable.

Stop ruining our game and go play something else if you can't play the game to it's fullest competitive wise (not exactly targeted to anyone). Smash is not a traditional fighter so stop trying to make it one.

I'm sure people were arguing the same thing when we banned Great Bay, Hyrule Temple, IC Mountain, etc.

 

[Armada]

Wake: Yeah the combos and "almost perfect" in many situation have all the top players in common.

The thing is how we get the first hit. Everyone (almost and me included) play really deffensive and smash wasn´t like that before. That´s what I tried to explain in that post.

 

[Wake]

Wake: Yeah the combos and "almost perfect" in many situation have all the top players in common.

The thing is how we get the first hit. Everyone (almost and me included) play really deffensive and smash wasn´t like that before. That´s what I tried to explain in that post.

Interesting... well I don't think that I'd get bored of watching any of the top pros... unless they timed out every match. It doesn't seem "gay" when I watch it though.

 

[Beat!]

Let's bring back Hyrule Temple! My Fox can't combo as well there as on a flat stage. Balance!

 

[Loota]

I'd appreciate if you actually commented on all of my post rather than taking things out of it's context :/

Sorry but almost everyone in the community agree with my on that point so try again.

Though I'm not even convinced about that, do you really think it is right to just abandon all the potential of the game because most of the players agree to do that? We don't have and shouldn't follow the interest of most of the players, we should be using the full potential of the game rather than just a bit of it.

"Also running the timer isn't gay, it is totally legit and it can easily be prevented by counterpicking right like a good player should be doing"

Come back after you have been playing against m2ks puff and tell me this.

You didn't even describe the situation and practically just said that "I know and you don't". That's not very convincing you know.

I don´t care if you are sure or not cause Im and that´s what matters.
Please give my the perfect ruleset in your eyes =)

Why should I give you my opinion of an ideal ruleset since I didn't even state I'd know one. I'm heavily critizing the act of leaving many fine counterpick stages out just because you can. You're playing Smash with a stagelist that minimizes or even takes out some of the game's unique and perfectly fine elements, such as stage counterpicking's importance. You are not playing the game to it's fullest potential, you are ingoring it and playing your own game.

You have no idea what your are talking about at all so keep your mouth shut.

But yeah I guess some random player have to tell me how good Im

So can you tell me then why is for example Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar and Poké Floats banned instead of making a pointless ad verecundiam please? You being the all mighty Armada doesn't save you from explaining your arguments. I'm not necessarily a top level player but it doesn't stop me thinking openly with my brains which is kinda rare these days in the scene.

What do you consider viable..?

When I talk about viable stages competitive wise, I talk about stages that will determine the better player by not altering the object of the game from either taking four stocks away from your opponent or running the timer. There shouldn't be any other tactic that clearly overcentralizes the stage to a certain point that the normal objects of the game are disrupted by having one that needs to be done in order to win. Such tactics as walk-offs and taking advantage of an unreachable position and making the game a gamble, boil the game down to a quick reaction- or luck based game or the like, is not showing the skill elements we are looking for and Smash is built around. Character knowledge, stage knowledge and counterpicking knowledge is the things we are looking for in addition to technical skill and consistent execution.

You don't know what you're talking about. Straw manning does not help your argument either.

Anyway, before I rip your entire argument apart, I need your definition of viable.

Then I hope you'd tell me about why do you ban viable stages like Rainbow Cruise and the others already mentioned many times in this conversation. Since I don't see any arguments behind that, I heavily suspect that it is all up to personal preferences that lately have somehow got the last word in the Melee community. I really hope it isn't like so but I just can't think of anything else that would explain it.

I really like that you are confident about ripping my argument apart :] That will surely lead to an interesting discussion.

I'm sure people were arguing the same thing when we banned Great Bay, Hyrule Temple, IC Mountain, etc.

Oh wow, you really do know the extremes. Too bad that situation isn't comparable to the one we have now at all. Those stages clearly aren't viable competitive wise but you pretend as if it would be the same with discussing RC, Brinstar and company which is a bad attitude towards the discussion. Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar and Kongo Jungle N64 are stages that determine the better player just as we are expecting to. The only difference is that you really have to know how those stages work, you won't fare there without, and which character do well there unlike in the neutrals.

This may not be the most ideal place to discuss this but it doesn't really matter to me.

 

[bËst^]

I respects Draver's point a lot, and for me they make perfect sense. I'm not about to arque these stage legalities because I see it as a never-ending discussion and no matter what kind of results we get; there will still be people those are unhappy about the situation.

But minimizing the stagelist and banning many potential counterpick-stages just wides the gap between players skill level. And in this discussion, it should be pretty obvious that we discuss about stages like: Rainbow road, Poke floats, Brinstar, Kongo Jungle 64 (and maybe Mute city and Corneria?). As a pro players I assume that we all know the difference between Rainbow road and Flat zone for example =).

Discussion's point is not to bring all those stages in, those most definitely make no sense to be played in tournaments. Like Huryle that includes a lot of camping and centered battle on downstairs where nobody who can tech never dies or Big blue that includes too many moving random factors etc. Just to focus on stages those are just a bit more "difficult" to play, without being too broken.

I have no idea why playing on courses other that the neutral ones seems to be too huge problem for too many. Like in this discussion: We got Armada and Nihonjin Included... as I far as I know the two best players in Europe (at least). So I'm pretty sure you guys know this game so well and you are able to adapt easily in many different situations in the game, so I kinda don't get why you are so much against that making the game a bit more "fun"/verstatile/whatsoever. =/

 

[saska]

man this is wrong. suddenly i dont want to be finnish anymore. too embarrassing.

E: i think you should try looking versatility not from the game but from players. different players play differently. same player plays diffirently today and tomorrow. predicting their doings during the match is interesting. fun comes from that.

 

[Loota]

As if you couldn't be doing that on Brinstar and the like, that isn't even a relevant point in the discussion. Sorry but you're just ignorant, there is nothing more to it.

 

[saska]

It's relevant since you are saying playing only in few stages is boring. You don't want to go to tournament because you find less stages boring. It's like everything melee has to offer are different stages. Personally I think melee with 1 balanced stage is more interesting than melee with 15 stages that favor some character or camping strategies.

Like i said, I like games where winner is decided during the match and not in the stage selection screen.

 

[Loota]

I'd play with only a few stages even if it is boring IF there were only a few viable stages. But we do have many more viable stages that are ingored by some artificial and wrong reasons only because a majority likes it. Some stages favor some characters more than some but there is nothing wrong with that because we have a counterpick-system. You can easily avoid being destroyed in counterpicks by picking different characters, it isn't even meant to be truly succesful with only one character. A good player does know how to and where to counterpick, there is no excuse not to. Melee aint Street Fighter. You also have to admit that camping is part of Melee, we don't adjust rulesets to please even the majority if it is not justified to do so.

We have to do an objective and fair competitive ruleset where the goal is to make as versatile and deep metagame with all the elements the game has to offer which doesn't take personal preferences into account, that is common knowledge.

 

[mayhem]

*facepalm*

I am also starting to be a little ashamed for the finnish guys speaking here >_>

So Draver in your opinion even if huge majority of us think that this stagelist (BEAST stagelist) is the most fair and the most competitively valid we should not be allowed to make rules according to that because you think that it diminishes depth of the metagame?

Have you ever heard of democracy?

 

[RTpmwe]

mayhem and saska have completely expressed my feelings in this matter

 

[Loota]

I'd appreciate if people actually responded to my posts and its questions rather than posing questions on new matters.

*facepalm*

I am also starting to be a little ashamed for the finnish guys speaking here >_>

So Draver in your opinion even if huge majority of us think that this stagelist (BEAST stagelist) is the most fair and the most competitively valid we should not be allowed to make rules according to that because you think that it diminishes depth of the metagame?

Have you ever heard of democracy?

*facepalm*

You're ashamed of us because we actually can think with our brains and argue for the matter? That is... sad.

Well then, tell me why it is the most fair and why Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar and Poké Floats are banned from a objective competitive standpoint. This current ruleset takes depth and potential away, there is no questionizing it. I can't understand why it would be okay to ingore depth and play with a ruleset which is created upon player's preferences. People have created this ruleset to satisfy their own personal preferences which is far from an objective ruleset striving only for the most deep and versatile competitive stagelist possible. It is okay to play with it when all players agree to it but otherwise just banning depth is the last thing to do just because you can.

Democracy isn't always the right thing to do if the majority's standpoint can't even be argued for without bringing in personal preferences and biased opinions.