Taking Notes and Reading Notes

[The_Doug]

What do you guys think about people reading and/or taking notes at a set during a tournament?

-Taking notes while watching a potential opponent playing a match.
-Having a friend take notes for you during your own games or take notes on an opponent.
-Reading notes before a tournament match.
-Reading notes between games in a set.

The first time I saw this was at MLG Chicago 2006 where a couple of players had printed out chain throw percentages on flash cards. I chuckled a little bit and didn't really think about it at the time. Later on I saw the same two guys standing behind opponents in various qualifying pools and bracket matches writing further notes down on these cards. They even stood behind me at some point. Obviously they didn't win, and later on I casually talked about it to JV who said they were probably Halo players; low and behold ten minutes later I saw them at a Halo station.

I haven't played Chess since middle and high school, but as I recall the rule is you may bring a blank sheet of paper and pencil to each game. No player can bring notes or diagrams of openings or centralized play for obvious reasons.

I was also a tournament player at various card game events for a while including Magic The Gathering, Star Trek CCG, etc. Usually the rules were similar to Chess in that you could bring a blank sheet of paper but never have anything already written down on it. It was also very frowned upon in local tournaments to stand behind a possible future opponent and write down every card he played from his deck and more specifically his sideboard.

Some other sports will likely have little rules written about reading/writing notes here and there. It is astonishing at how much data there is to remember about this game. Just look at some of Magus's data and how useful it is to know these things. In the super fast paced game of smash this will probably have little impact on the higher tiered players, but lately with all the things going on that can influence a match like whisper coaching, crowd coaching, crowd intimidation, deafening noise, and the other intangibles, I feel it is worth asking. This post was a little longer than I would have liked, but I am curious to see what the opinions are in 2011.

 

[Skler]

Notes won't give you anything against your opponent that just watching one of their matches will do. It's really difficult to write down each move they make and when they make it, you'd be better off just remembering. I always try to watch the match that will determine who I go against in brackets.

All in all, I don't think notes are a big deal. If somebody is willing to document the 130 times I nair during a match then kudos to them, but remembering "nairs a lot" will be just as helpful.

 

[Deleted member]

taking notes is brilliant, but like any test, you should know what's on them prior to the tournament. that said, there's really no excuse for unfamiliarity with one's primary character of choice. you also can't justify a weak CP set, or a lack of match-specific information. For example, a fox player should know this prior to a tournament:

melee fox study guide-

basic player specific:
technical - dashdancing, L-canceling, wavedashing, fast-falling, short hop aerials, crouching, teching, DI, generalized spacing, all other relevant technical maneuvers that yield a higher win ratio.
mental - watch for patterns, adaptation, calm collected nerves, think actively during a match
stages - know the stages well, as well as the general tournament rules, and plan for them accordingly
biological - eat well and get good rest before a tournament

fox technical specific:
full dashdance range
recovery range and useful options
basic shine usage (shinespikes, shine >grab/upsmash)
upthrow DI range and appropriate follows
ideal range of fox's attacks
chain grab usage
ideal laser usage (generally lagless SHFFL)

fox tactical specific:
understand that fox is good because he can choose when to attack, and exploit that ability as much as possible. Thus-
dashdance camping
laser camping
platform camping
ledge camping
general baiting and attacking move lag.
understand that some tactics are strictly better or close enough to warrant others useless, and choose them accordingly to maximize your win ratio. eliminate tactics that are useless or present a strict tactical disadvantage, and understand why you are discarding them on a technical level.

vs <character> information (I'll use marth for my example, but ideally one for each relevant character), stay as general and flexible as possible:
effective offensive tactics - shine > grab, upthrow > upair, dash attack > shine or grab marth's aerial landing lag if grounded, approach marth from the side or from below, but do not approach when above him, "marth killer" edge guarding
effective defensive tactics - DI marth's upthrow behind him @ 0%, recover hugging the stage to give yourself as many tech opportunities as possible.
other notes - none of marth's attacks have lasting hitboxes or stay out, but all of them are well ranged and disjointed. marth's uptilt cannot be DI'd from behind, nor can it be DI'd the way he is facing from the front. dair cannot be meteor canceled. general knowledge of marth's effective offensive and defensive tactics vs fox, and simplistic yet effective ways to counter them.
stages - ideally, CP to PS first. if your opponent bans it, CP to either DL64, RC or Brinstar based on preference. against marth, ban FD first to avoid chaingrabs. remember that you can always choose your own banned stage as a CP option should your opponent change to a more favorable match-up for that stage.

vs <player> information:
look for simple and easily exploitable habits or tendencies and abuse them as much as possible.
know what characters your opponent is likely to play at his/her best ability, and what that ability level is.
anticipate opponent CPs based on either character or player preferences.

other:
eliminate any notable weakness from your prior events.
be welcome to suggestions from other players and evaluate them fairly.

 

[Cactuar]

Ya, I used to have a little notepad that I would read before sets or before playing a certain character to remind myself to do or not do specific things. Notes are good stuff.

 

[Slhoka]

Notes regarding characters, stages or general things to do aren't that useful because like Umbreon said, you're supposed to know that.
Having notes on opponents would be amazing, and useful because it's hard to recall the habits and the style of everyone.
Overall, I think I wouldn't mind facing someone using notes. The impact it can have in a game like Smash sounds more than acceptable to me.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I agree with what Skler said. I sometimes used to write down notes too (using them the same way Cactuar did), but they didn't really affect the outcome of me playing other people. Notes simply provide an aid in remembering things. A good player will be able to identify and remember habits in his opponents even without notes.

I can see it why it'd be different in other sports though. The higher mnemonic power provided by the notes could really make a difference in understanding/analizing the other player's strategy because things like deck composition are harder to remember. Moreover, in the forementioned sports knowledge acquired before playing of the strategy/deck composition/etc. that the opponent is about to use is more valuable because once chosen it is harder to change them. Smash is more dynamic and players are allowed to switch from one strategy to another one constantly and instantly. If a player knew in advance I'm going to use a lot of Nairs, I'd just stop using them as soon as I realized he knows/can stop them. Such an adaptation is impossible in games like Magic The Gathering where I can't alter the composition of my deck that far.

Also, there is a Star Trec CCG??

 

[Ignatius]

I remember the Kishes had little notecard/printouts of the stages that were legal with all the spawn positions noted on them, and then they'd come up briefly with how they intended to start the teams match based on their position from the ports.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I remember the Kishes had little notecard/printouts of the stages that were legal with all the spawn positions noted on them, and then they'd come up briefly with how they intended to start the teams match based on their position from the ports.

I often thought about doing this too and I perhaps even did it once. It really feels better when you're not the one who spawns on the top of Yoshi Story.

 

[The_Doug]

Skler - I'm pretty much in agreement there's no way to document thorough details on an opponent during the tournament, but how about this for an example. Lets say Pound 5 the pools are announced in advance again and use that time to document known players in my pool. Bogus Youtube example of a bit of Skler's Link and noted the following: N-airs a lot, n-air oos, counterpicks to XX stage, always counterpicks IC against Sheik, tech chases, jab grabs, reads spot dodging/rolling well, likes to roll up from ledge, edgeguards with arrows & up-B, high% watch up-B from shield, etc. I can fit all this information in one screen on my phone and it is at my side during a tournament game.

Umbreon - Whoa that example study guide for Fox looks great. If only I could read around 1000 wpm I would definitely make notes with that sort of detail and go over them during a tournament.

Cactuar - Glad I'm not the only one. It's great to have basic notes in hand against the occasional uncommon character that pops up ala how to exploit Mewtwo, G&W, Pikachu, etc.

Sihola - I'm sure your opinion about facing an opponent with notes is the norm.

Iggy - Nice. Given the dwindling stage list we have nowadays there will be less and less of a need to note this stuff though.

Aldwyn - I'm to hear surprised notes never helped. Was it against a top player and it didn't help enough? Pure conjecture here, but it could be the player you faced was extremely good at adapting ala Amsah/Armada. I also posted on your profile regarding Star Trek CCG.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon - Whoa that example study guide for Fox looks great. If only I could read around 1000 wpm I would definitely make notes with that sort of detail and go over them during a tournament.

The idea is like any general test in that you learn and memorize and know the information prior to the tournament. If I as a Fox player at this point do not know what % my CG ends in the ditto and the best possible follow-ups, I do not deserve the rewards that come from a successful CG (it's 0%-51% to uptilt regrab, pummel upthrow charge upsmash or 0%-78% pummel upthrow charge upsmash depending on the opponent's DI). You don't need to read at any particular speed as you do it prior to the tournament, and only add additional knowledge as necessary between tournaments. And, if you matter as a player, it's often easier to look up your own matches on youtube later and analyze them more thoroughly to yourself. Most good players I know do this extensively.

 

[Skler]

I wouldn't be bothered at all if somebody had that much information on me. Anybody can watch a youtube video of me and figure out I always end up on Rainbow Cruise if I'm losing or that I nair over 50% of the match. If somebody is willing to take notes on where each player goes and all that they deserve that slight advantage. I have my backup stages in case RC is banned and I assume everyone else does too. Having foreknowledge of what I do will not make my opponent win, him outplaying me will.

People memorize stuff all the time and I've never seen a smasher use notes before. If somebody started doing it I'd be happy if more people did it. It means the community is advancing and people are getting better (or at least trying to). I say we give players free note pads to try and figure out their opponent's play style!

Actually, notes on spawn positions sounds really useful. I might want to look at that and figure out what port is best for me!

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Aldwyn - I'm to hear surprised notes never helped. Was it against a top player and it didn't help enough? Pure conjecture here, but it could be the player you faced was extremely good at adapting ala Amsah/Armada. I also posted on your profile regarding Star Trek CCG.

Not really, no. I used to take notes in order to remind myself how I should move. I used to have (and still do, to an extent) problems in building up my timings, expecially after a lot of time spent not playing. Notes would contain reminders of what my timings/patterns should usually be and wheter I should be more or less aggressive in a specific match up. I eventually ditched them because they only overloaded me with information I should know already. Playing a lot of freeplay helps me more than taking notes nowadays. I never tried out to use them specifically to remember player habits because I always considered adaptation as an instinctive skill. Should I depend on notes in order to adapt, I might end up like in your conjecture.

 

[KishPrime]

I was always surprised that with the sheer number of diverse players in this community that no one ever put together a "scouting report" project analyzing the top players for characters, trends, etc. I mean, we all had that information in our heads, but there are so many people that strike out with their own stuff that I'm surprised no one ever did a more formalized version. Major League Baseball scouting reports are fascinating in their detail on statistics.

I like Umbreon's list, and I think it should be posted in every n00b guide as an example for the amount of information that you have to know up front to play this game well, at least in your head.