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TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

3BitSaurus

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I have always hated the fandom's mentality of how the Smash roster must have some kind of 'balance' to it whether it's Mario/Pokémon/Fire Emblem having too many reps because their precious Zelda/Metroid/etc. don't have as many playable reps as them or all Third Parties must have equal representation. I'm pretty sure Nintendo and the Smash Bros development team would ever make any arbitrary rule like that and Sakurai seems more interested in moveset potential than anything else.
While "anime swordsmen" is blatant reductionism, I do understand where it comes from, kind of. The issue isn't that the FE roster grew too much - it has the popularity to back that growth up. I think it's because it grew too fast. Fire Emblem and Pokémon are literally the only two franchises that received a new character in every Smash installment since their debut.

But while Pokémon got one or two usually, Fire Emblem got three new characters in Smash 4, one of which was a promotional pick, plus one returning veteran, then another character when Ultimate came. Not even Mario gets this treatment, despite being the franchise with the most characters. You didn't see the Fire Emblem hate train spike until Smash 4 DLC. The masses weren't complaining about Ike in Brawl or about Robin in Smash 4 base roster.

Meanwhile, some fans see this as strange because there are other big Nintendo franchises that don't receive characters since Brawl, despite massive fan demand - like Zelda, Kirby and even Star Fox or F-Zero. Heck, Donkey Kong and Metroid would have been in a similar position if not for K. Rool and Ridley.

I don't think this is a matter of numbers or "reps" for most people, it's just... weird. People get the impression these franchises are flat out getting shafted because of Pokémon and Fire Emblem.

Anyway, just my two cents on why people think this way.

In regards to moveset uniqueness, I think this is definitely something Phoenix would have in his favor. Someone mentioned a "supply" mechanic that a Resident Evil character could have, too. I think something similar to the Evidence mechanic from the main games and UMvC could be interesting, but instead of "bad evidence", all evidence is "good", but it just has different effects. I believe Sonsa Sonsa proposed something similar.
 

Sonsa

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Yeah, since luck is a big part of Phoenix and his defense strategy, I decided to put some in his moveset, and one of the best spots I think it'd go is in his side-b, "Presenting Evidence"! I proposed that he'd throw all sorts of things at a decent arc and every once in a while, like, 1/10 or somethin, he'd hurl the Shichi****o and it'd be weaker than a 9 but stronger than a stitch-face, since it's a projectile, but not one he can hang on to.

Imagining someone gimping Phoenix and taunting and then Phoenix goes for one final move, throws the decisive evidence on-stage at them as he's falling to his death, getting lucky, turning everything around, and winning by just a clutch second, it feels very Phoenix to me!

A lot of people want an evidence "system" like UMvC3, and hey, it was cool before so could totally be cool again, but since it's already been done in UMvC3 and all, I'd rather get the fun of it in his moveset, have him built around being generally disadvantaged, but getting big rewards for precise punishes, and having chances at super lucky miracles! Plus, seems Joker already has the "turnabout mode" thing covered haha
 

3BitSaurus

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Yeah, since luck is a big part of Phoenix and his defense strategy, I decided to put some in his moveset, and one of the best spots I think it'd go is in his side-b, "Presenting Evidence"! I proposed that he'd throw all sorts of things at a decent arc and every once in a while, like, 1/10 or somethin, he'd hurl the Shichi****o and it'd be weaker than a 9 but stronger than a stitch-face, since it's a projectile, but not one he can hang on to.

Imagining someone gimping Phoenix and taunting and then Phoenix goes for one final move, throws the decisive evidence on-stage at them as he's falling to his death, getting lucky, turning everything around, and winning by just a clutch second, it feels very Phoenix to me!

A lot of people want an evidence "system" like UMvC3, and hey, it was cool before so could totally be cool again, but since it's already been done in UMvC3 and all, I'd rather get the fun of it in his moveset, have him built around being generally disadvantaged, but getting big rewards for precise punishes, and having chances at super lucky miracles! Plus, seems Joker already has the "turnabout mode" thing covered haha
Yeah, "high risk, high reward" is the only playstyle that would be a perfect match for Phoenix imo. Maybe the evidence could be references to cases from the first few games?

Also, Joker gets Arsene by countering, not just by being at a disadvantage. Phoenix has a lot of planning involved in timing everything right in MvC. One wrong move, and you get a "Down" in less than a few seconds.
 
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Sabrewulf238

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I would love to see Phoenix myself, I just feel something from RE is more likely imo. Put me down as a supporter.
I feel like it's worth pointing out that there was a time when people thought Dixie was way more likely to get in than K. Rool.

If there's more fan demand for Phoenix than a Resident Evil character it could end up swaying the decision.

(I mean Phoenix was presumably the highest rated Capcom character in the ballot so Sakurai is likely already aware of where the fan demand is)
 
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Wyoming

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I think there is merit to Phoenix over Resident Evil. While the latter is clearly bigger and iconic, Phoenix has a lot of Nintendo-centric appeal and history. He, like Professor Layton, are essentially pseudo-Nintendo characters despite the recent ports. The series will continue to be on Nintendo for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise it is the unorthodox moveset that he has used in the past but also other elements unused that could be added to the fray. A Smash fighter Phoenix would certainly be unique and a challenge for Sakurai.

I think the stage might be key, as the Courtroom will be able to represent visual novels in design and function. It "fits" the aesthetic of Smash more than RE, but I also believe that Resident Evil's horror themed stage would be equally as appealing to him to make, even if it is grittier and more realistic than other stages of a similar ilk like Dracula's Castle.
 
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TemporalShrew

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I think there is merit to Phoenix over Resident Evil. While the latter is clearly bigger and iconic, Phoenix has a lot of Nintendo-centric appeal and history. He, like Professor Layton, are essentially pseudo-Nintendo characters despite the recent ports. The series will continue to be on Nintendo for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise it is the unorthodox moveset that he has used in the past but also other elements unused that could be added to the fray. A Smash fighter Phoenix would certainly be unique and a challenge for Sakurai.

I think the stage might be key, as the Courtroom will be able to represent visual novels in design and function. It "fits" the aesthetic of Smash more than RE, but I also believe that Resident Evil's horror themed stage would be equally as appealing to him to make, even if it is grittier and more realistic than other stages of a similar ilk like Dracula's Castle.
I think I also read somewhere that Sakurai had recently complained about how many characters in video gaming used swords (probably a complaint made while trying to create a set of normals for the Hero). But I guess the big question for me is - does Sakurai consider the challenge of making a Smash moveset for Phoenix a good thing that will result in a unique-but-appropriate place in the game, or does he consider it an indicator that any moveset he makes for Phoenix would be "unnatural," and thus that he isn't "realizable" as a character?
 

Sonsa

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Yeah, "high risk, high reward" is the only playstyle that would be a perfect match for Phoenix imo. Maybe the evidence could be references to cases from the first few games?
Yep, I included things like The Thinker and the car mirror that came off after it hit Phoenix in Apollo Justice! You can even fit references to other games, like the Triforce, Wii Fit Trainer's volleyball, an apple from the Green Greens stage, all sorts of possibilities!

Also, I was on and off trying really hard yesterday to think of Phoenix's competition even though we don't have official worldwide ballot results and I have a really limited perspective on what people want despite trying my best n all! What I've got is:

-Sora: Feels like he's the last huge ballot winner demand left, swings a key like a sword but could be unique probably, but owned by Disney...if anyone can do it, it's Smash, and people have had doubts about companies before like Microsoft so...but...it is Disney though...hard to say!

-Geno: Another one of the last huge fan demands, buuut he's already in as a Spirit and even brought Mallow with him, feels like that's all he's ganna get, BUT hey anything can happen and him as a spirit is a good sign since Square let them use him to that extent so why not more, something like that?

-Crash: Yeah, Crash has a chance...on most fan polls, which, are often biased by their audiences and shouldn't be taken too seriously, are like, all we have! And on the widest, longest ones, Phoenix beats Crash? Nintendo themselves did call Crash a "gaming icon" when his ports came over though!

-Resident Evil: Y'know, they're the biggest most successful franchise Capcom has or whatever, and that's great, but I honestly don't see a lot of fan demand...it took me a while to find the Leon Kennedy thread around here, and people haven't chatted there for months, even with the recent announcements. I never see any Resident Evil characters rank notably on fan polls, and I'm sure Resident Evil fans would rather Leon get into the next Vs Capcom game instead? Smash doesn't feel like much of a home for them?

-Lloyd Irving: I've visited his thread, listened to his case, and I still feel like I don't know much, but yeah, he's got a shot! Seems no one mentions him but his fans, but like, yeah, he's probably more popular in other circles or something

I personally feel Master Chief's been deconfirmed by the recent Phil Spencer interview, and Dante, Amaterasu, Viewtiful Joe, and Wonder Red have all been deconfirmed by Kamiya's smash poll but being as open-minded as possible, then sure, they all have a shot too I guess, and Dante would be the biggest competition, winning Kamiya's poll. And while Dante can spin his sword around and definitely do some flashy moves not in Smash yet, many of em may be copy pasted from his MvC3 appearance, and, he still mostly uses guns and swords, which is definitely less unique than what Phoenix can offer!

Phoenix has unique moveset potential, no one outside Ace Attorney can fight like him. History with Nintendo which is very helpful as shown with characters like Banjo and Ryu. An on-going series coming to switch, like, the only thing we were ever worried about was popularity really, Phoenix isn't a HUGE request like K.Rool and Ridley were. But out of everyone that's left at this point...we can't be sure, but just guessing from what I've seen, I thiiink Phoenix is more popular than most of the competition. I can only guess that probably Sora and Geno beat him on the ballot, but if assist trophies and spirits deconfirm, as I'm guessin they do, and Disney is a nightmare to work with...(I dunno, I dunno!) I mean like...Phoenix has to compete with Crash and "Doomguy"(No set name on this dude?) and from what I've seen worldwide Phoenix seems to beat em...

I just really don't wanna be naive, but it really, really seems like Phoenix has everything you need! His one problem, popularity, still worries me, Ace Attorney isn't as popular as Resident Evil or Crash even, I don't think? But as far as requests of getting into Smash go...uhh...yeah, from my limited experience he like...at this point, beats everyone...

Ugh! Hard to sayyy, can't be suuure, but it's nice to ramble here and jot all my feelings down haha
does Sakurai consider the challenge of making a Smash moveset for Phoenix a good thing that will result in a unique-but-appropriate place in the game, or does he consider it an indicator that any moveset he makes for Phoenix would be "unnatural," and thus that he isn't "realizable" as a character?
I mean, Fox's moveset is pretty "unnatural" for him, he never sets himself on fire in his games, and I'm sure Sakurai would check to see the response to Phoenix's UMvC3 moveset, which most fans were very happy with! Since he was "realized" in another game, I doubt Sakurai would come to a conclusion like that!

Edit: Oh yeah, Layton too, apparently Level-5 is way bigger than I remember, Layton or Jibanyan have a shot, but again, from my limited experience, it just looks like Phoenix has em beat in requests??
 
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Wyoming

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I am guessing that if no reveal or leak by the time TGS happens then that will be the time to do show him. If he isn't shown there you'd be hoping for the next Direct to tie in any announcement otherwise it will start looking bleaker imo.

I know tie-ins aren't the norm, but if Capcom are doing the "push Ace Attorney more with Smash" idea, then they have to do that essentially. Not that it is the only reason he'd be picked, mind you.

Is TGS early, mid, or late September this year?
 
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MissingGlitch

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I am guessing that if no reveal or leak by the time TGS happens then that will be the time to do show him. If he isn't shown there you'd be hoping for the next Direct to tie in any announcement otherwise it will start looking bleaker imo.

I know tie-ins aren't the norm, but if Capcom are doing the "push Ace Attorney more with Smash" idea, then they have to do that essentially. Not that it is the only reason he'd be picked, mind you.

Is TGS early, mid, or late September this year?
Its saying June 20th-23rd. How much does Nintendo take part in the TGS? I don't think they would have his reveal during then. But there tends to be a September direct so if he was in, that would be the time they show him.
 

Wyoming

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Its saying June 20th-23rd. How much does Nintendo take part in the TGS? I don't think they would have his reveal during then. But there tends to be a September direct so if he was in, that would be the time they show him.
I googled it after reading this post to make sure. It is September 11th to September 15th. Normally TGS is in September so I was kind of shocked to hear your June date initially!

I believe they were there last year. Not sure about prior years. I know Sakurai goes there sometimes.
 
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MissingGlitch

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I googled it after reading this post to make sure. It is September 11th to September 15th. Normally TGS is in September so I was kind of shocked to hear your June date initially!

I believe they were there last year. Not sure about prior years. I know Sakurai goes there sometimes.
Crap I didn't mean June I did mean September. Sorry its late :v
 

Jovahexeon Joranvexeon

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One: This is absolutely perfect.

Two: As an aside, I was thinking, and how do we all feel about Phoenix's Final Smash being... The Steel Samurai? The Steel Samurai is one of the most significant gags in PW, and especially in the original games, and I feel like the pure hype generated by him showing up, hitting a fighter/fighters, and slicing and dicing them while his theme song plays in the background in a cutscene is exactly the sort of thing Sakurai would go for.
Personally, I'd go for something more along the lines of this:

On a side note, it's really great to see everyone so hopeful here!
 

Leotsune

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IF AA7 is announced at TGS, I expect a Smash direct later September, new character reveal (Phoenix Wright), Banjo moveset breakdown/stage/music and probably new game modes.
I don't think we'll get another Smash fighter reveal at TGA so the last character might also be announced at the direct.
 

Jovahexeon Joranvexeon

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Wouldn't it be funny if it turns out the reason we didn't get much Ace Attorney as expected last year, is because they were saving the game for this year to coincide with a Phoenix Wright in Smash reveal?
 

MissingGlitch

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IF AA7 is announced at TGS, I expect a Smash direct later September, new character reveal (Phoenix Wright), Banjo moveset breakdown/stage/music and probably new game modes.
I don't think we'll get another Smash fighter reveal at TGA so the last character might also be announced at the direct.
From this point forward. If they want all the characters announced and released by February. September would be when they announce fighter number 4. And fighter number 5 will be at the game awards. I expect if we do get Nick it will be announced in September.
 

THE SLOTH

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Yeah, still expecting a Resident Evil character here.
Hoping/expecting Wright, although I might be a bit too optimistically naive. If a RE character does get in over him, I’ll support them as long as they play in an interesting way.
 

3BitSaurus

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Hoping for Wright, expecting Jill or Leon.

Phoenix's chances are the biggest they've ever been and he is the most wanted Capcom character inside the Smash fanbase, but... at the same time, RE is no easy competition.

I like Phoenix more not just for his base game, but for what he could bring to Smash. Either way, if we get RE, an influential series from a genre completely new to Smash (like AA, in fact), I don't think I'll even be mad.

Either way, I'd be relatively satisfied as someone who likes both of them in Marvel.
 

Leotsune

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The thing Im worried the most is the possbility that Capcom didn't even give Nintendo and Sakurai the option to pick Phoenix, for a reason or another.
Capcom could've just told them "I'll let you use RE, take it or leave it"
If by any chance PW was present in the selection Sakurai had to pick from, then I'll feel way more relieved.
 
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We shouldn’t discard Wright unless Sakurai comes out to say he isn’t in.
 

Sonsa

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Well, considering who we have so far, seems Nintendo investigated if they could use characters and then made the list that was shown to Sakurai before securing everything. It's not like Capcom gave a list of possibilities and Microsoft did, Banjo was specifically sought out...and it would be so weird for Capcom to straight up refuse Wright haha, or hey, who knows, maybe each character's conditions were different and maybe Capcom felt petty that day, what do I know haha

But! You can put me on the more hopeful side, sure! At first I lost trust in them after seeing DQ's Hero! I didn't know they had many fans and they started off by showing borrowed moves like Link's dash attack and even his shield mechanic. But then I saw Banjo, who really, is only there for the dedicated fans that never stopped loving him after 20 years of abandonment and embarrassment! I was like phew and trusted again, they care about fans, and I started to like The Hero too with their cool unique MP system!

As far as I can tell, they like unique stuff, and making fans happy! From what I've seen, Resident Evil is a more popular, successful series sure, but more of Phoenix's audience wants him in Smash then Resident Evil's audience cares about any of their reps in Smash... Cloud was added cause popularity, Bayo too, Megaman, Sonic, Pacman, Simon, plenty! Some were special cases, like Snake, who no one thought was possible but Kojima begged for, but yeah! Sonic and Cloud didn't get in just cause they're successful, fans really really wanted em! So...I trust that Wright would get in over Resident Evil. I know RE has fans that do want Jill or Leon in Smash, but it seems most don't mind either way, I just...never seen any Resident Evil on any fan poll, and yeah, those shouldn't be taken too seriously, but it's all we have to try and reflect official ballot results! I see Phoenix a lot, aaand I can't recall one with Jill, Leon, Wesker, or aaanyone else from RE...

So! Yeah! I trust em! I'm hopeful! But anything's possible, way too late to bring my hopes down now though haha
 

NSSKG151

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The thing Im worried the most is the possbility that Capcom didn't even give Nintendo and Sakurai the option to pick Phoenix, for a reason or another.
Capcom could've just told them "I'll let you use RE, take it or leave it"
If by any chance PW was present in the selection Sakurai had to pick from, then I'll feel way more relieved.
I don't know. Capcom seemed to have been very cooperative and gave the Smash dev team a lot of freedom about how their franchises are represented in Smash compared to the other third parties. If Capcom were really control freaks they probably would have tried talking Sakurai into having Zero as the Megaman rep instead of Classic Megaman himself since Zero is the one of the most popular characters from the Megaman series.

I think if Nintendo wanted Ace Attorney, DMC, Okami or even Ghost n' Goblins in Smash instead of Resident Evil I'm sure Capcom would be more than willing to comply with them. Besides, wouldn't it have come to Nintendo themselves to suggest Phoenix Wright to Sakurai since they were the ones who made the list for him?
 
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MissingGlitch

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I do feel like Nick would fit better then a RE rep. No insult to any RE characters but I wouldn't say they have the freedom of wackyness. They are just normal people that hold a gun. Which Nick has plenty of wackyness to work off of for moveset potential.
 
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3BitSaurus

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I do feel like Nick would fit better then a RE rep. No insult to any RE characters but I wouldn't say they have the freedom of wackyness. They are just normal people that hold a gun. Which Nick has plenty of wackyness to work off of for moveset potential.
Yeah, I mean, Jill's MvC2 moveset was wacky, but that's because she basically summoned zombies for some of her specials, which is something I doubt Sakurai would do with her because he apparently gives a lot of care in making third parties true to form. So she would probably use her normal tools from her games.

That said, he does take some liberties, as seen with Pac-Man, mostly. I think Phoenix would be a similar case, since he doesn't fight in his series. Meanwhile, a character that can fight, like Jill or Leon, would probably play closer to their actual games.

So, uh... I took a few turns, but I agree. Phoenix would get crazier with his moveset.

I think at this point, since my most wanted is in, I just want to see characters with cool gimmicks.
 

Wyoming

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The thing Im worried the most is the possbility that Capcom didn't even give Nintendo and Sakurai the option to pick Phoenix, for a reason or another.
Capcom could've just told them "I'll let you use RE, take it or leave it"
If by any chance PW was present in the selection Sakurai had to pick from, then I'll feel way more relieved.
I don't think Capcom would do that, really. Sakurai comes in with a character in mind and gets rejected I doubt he'll compromise.

Phoenix remains their IP and they've done numerous crossovers with him, and Smash would be a big opportunity for the series.

Capcom have nothing to gain to play hard ball, especially when I assume they would get a % of the fighter pass sales due to being included in it in this scenario.
 
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GoodGrief741

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I realized I'm actually expecting Wright. That's pretty dangerous, even though I'd love Jill or Leon.

Please you guys convince me that Phoenix doesn't have a chance I can't deal with the Grinch all over again.
 

3BitSaurus

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Ultimately, I think the choice between RE and AA would come down to which crowd they wanted to appeal to. RE does more for the general gaming crowd, while AA favors a more casual audience (as these types of adventure games tend to do, I think). Plus the fans of each IPs, which are vastly different demographics.

Both have moveset potential, both have good music, both have potential stages and Spirits... the choice would be just based on what Sakurai and team would want for Ultimate.
 

Wyoming

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I realized I'm actually expecting Wright. That's pretty dangerous, even though I'd love Jill or Leon.

Please you guys convince me that Phoenix doesn't have a chance I can't deal with the Grinch all over again.
It's entirely possible Capcom gets nothing this fighter's pass aside from costumes.
 

TemporalShrew

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Ultimately, I think the choice between RE and AA would come down to which crowd they wanted to appeal to. RE does more for the general gaming crowd, while AA favors a more casual audience (as these types of adventure games tend to do, I think). Plus the fans of each IPs, which are vastly different demographics.

Both have moveset potential, both have good music, both have potential stages and Spirits... the choice would be just based on what Sakurai and team would want for Ultimate.
Wow, I never thought I would be in a position to say, “gee, I sure hope Sakurai wants to appeal more to casuals this time!”
 

GoodGrief741

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Ultimately, I think the choice between RE and AA would come down to which crowd they wanted to appeal to. RE does more for the general gaming crowd, while AA favors a more casual audience (as these types of adventure games tend to do, I think). Plus the fans of each IPs, which are vastly different demographics.

Both have moveset potential, both have good music, both have potential stages and Spirits... the choice would be just based on what Sakurai and team would want for Ultimate.
Thing is, if polls and ballots are any indication, Smash fans prefer AA as well. So we're looking at the most hardcore + casuals vs. the wider gaming crowd. I think the former is more appealing sales wise.
It's entirely possible Capcom gets nothing this fighter's pass aside from costumes.
I don't think that'll happen tbh. They have too many characters and there's too much demand. Plus they've been very cooperative.
 
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TemporalShrew

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Thing is, if polls and ballots are any indication, Smash fans prefer AA as well. So we're looking at the most hardcore + casuals vs. the wider gaming crowd. I think the former is more appealing sales wise.

I don't think that'll happen tbh. They have too many characters and there's too much demand. Plus they've been very cooperative.
My one concern with the idea of Phoenix’s poll popularity is the idea that we’ve been led to believe these newcomers will be “unexpected,” and I’m curious as to whether this will be a case of “characters everyone wanted in Smash but would never expect to really make it,” like Banjo, or “characters almost no one even thought to ask for,” like Joker.

If it’s the former, Phoenix is a shoo-in. If it’s the latter, Sakurai might blindside us with Resident Evil, which seems so out-of-place it might be considered unexpected.
 
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3BitSaurus

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Thing is, if polls and ballots are any indication, Smash fans prefer AA as well. So we're looking at the most hardcore + casuals vs. the wider gaming crowd. I think the former is more appealing sales wise.

I don't think that'll happen tbh. They have too many characters and there's too much demand. Plus they've been very cooperative.
Wow, I never thought I would be in a position to say, “gee, I sure hope Sakurai wants to appeal more to casuals this time!”
Holy ****, you guys are right. For the first time in a while, the hardcore Smash fans are in agreement with the casual gamers. I guess that's a testament to how much people legitimately love AA, huh?

I think Phoenix is unexpected in the sense that he's not a fighter, but RE would be unexpected in the sense that it would be the first horror game with actual horror content in Smash. It's almost a big a "taboo" as guns and Bayo's nudity were before. So there's that.
 

Flyboy

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So I'm currently at a videogame orchestra concert hosted by Tommy Tallarico and they played the Court Begins Suite from the first Gyakuten Orchestra album! Not only was this an amazing and special experience for me as a longtime fan of the series and album, during the Cornered section they showed a fanmade Smash 4 mod video for Phoenix and it got BIG cheers!

It's amazing seeing a taste of what could happen when my most-wanted joins the roster!!!
 

3BitSaurus

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So I'm currently at a videogame orchestra concert hosted by Tommy Tallarico and they played the Court Begins Suite from the first Gyakuten Orchestra album! Not only was this an amazing and special experience for me as a longtime fan of the series and album, during the Cornered section they showed a fanmade Smash 4 mod video for Phoenix and it got BIG cheers!

It's amazing seeing a taste of what could happen when my most-wanted joins the roster!!!
Good sir, might I interest you in a Marvel 3 comeback video with orchestated covers as the soundtrack?


Imagining this in Smash gives me the chills.
 

Leotsune

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
332
Location
Guardia Castle
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Leotsune
So... I've finally finished DGS, and it was amazing.
And from what I've heard DGS2 is even better, can't wait for the translation or for Capcom to localize the games.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
So... I've finally finished DGS, and it was amazing.
And from what I've heard DGS2 is even better, can't wait for the translation or for Capcom to localize the games.
I just played through case 1, but I really loved it. Takumi really knows how to write a mystery.
 
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