Tackle side-b vs Reflector side-b

[DrinkingFood]

This is just more out of curiousity, I want to see if others feel the same as me, see poll

I'm still experiment with 3.6 side-b, eventually if my impressions change on its usefulness i'll post about it

 

[Dandizzle]

I'd only consider the tackle only arm rotor if they fixed the hit boxes to actually go in front of him a bit, otherwise reflect makes for a lot of silly situations with projectile characters.

 

[Sneez]

i think we should get the reflection and the tackle but it just goes like half the distance.

 

[Dandizzle]

Don't get greedy now Sneez

 

[Sneez]

lol ya the idea for getting a boost just above ground would be a lot better, it would open up a lot of fun waveland stuff

 

[Jams.]

Tackle sideb would be much more useful IMO. A reflector only sideb is more matchup dependent, and I don't know how much utility a reflector only approach would have even in those matchups. The hitbox contributed a lot to the power of 3.5 sideb. You wouldn't necessarily need the reflected projectile to hit the user, but it ensured you were safe against projectiles and threw out a decently large hitbox that could combo. I would personally rather have 3.6 sideb than reflector only 3.5 sideb.

I don't know how useful a near-grounded boost would be, but the idea sounds really cool.

 

[Jity]

Out of curiosity, would a near-grounded boost be able to link into this? That might make for some interesting applications to have this as a valid option in neutral.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I assume that since the boosts along the ground count you as grounded for some reason, but with aerial options, the answer would be yes; but theorizing on something that doesn't even exist in game and is heavily affected hard to account for factors like ECB positioning isn't really worth the time

 

[Sneez]

ideally it would be nice if rob could just do the just-above-ground aerial side-b (i think we need a name for it) by just timing it correctly on the first aerial frame after jumping

 

[bubbaking]

TBH, both of these options are not really that great unless the move receives some slight buff to make it work better:

If it remains as a non-moving reflector, then it needs a better reflect hitbox so that you don't end up clanking with the hitbox you're trying to reflect. Also, it should start up and end faster so it could actually be on par with the other reflectors in this game. As it is now, it's even worse than Ganon's, lolz. If it had all those things, then it wouldn't even need a damaging hitbox, let alone the almost useless one it has now. The move would simply perform its situational and non-polarizing job of reflecting projectiles without becoming an annoying/unfair approach option.

However, if it's gonna be a non-reflecting tackle, then it needs an actual reason to use it. Before, it was great to approach with alongside a reflected projectile, and sometimes it was okay to do so by itself at high %'s because it caused knockdown. Without a reflector, it needs either stronger hitboxes so it's always safe on-hit, faster start-up so it kinda functions as a GTFO tool, or much lower cooldown so that it can transition smoothly into combos/pressure. Obviously, if you gave the move less start-up, it would require more cooldown to balance it, and vice versa.

I would be happy with either of these choices, so I can't really answer the poll, lolz.

I assume that since the boosts along the ground count you as grounded for some reason, but with aerial options, the answer would be yes; but theorizing on something that doesn't even exist in game and is heavily affected hard to account for factors like ECB positioning isn't really worth the time

Sorry, what is "ECB"? Wouldn't such a boost simply count ROB as 'airborne' at the lowest possible point, similar to Peach's float (yes, she's airborne because she can't be hit by ground-only moves, such as the part of Melee Samus' tether grab that isn't on her arm cannon)?

Also, there is actually a very practical reason why, IMO, the PMDT should never want to implement a 'grounded robo-boost' sideB, and the reason actually comes to mind easily if you think about Peach's grounded float. She suddenly has access to moves that are +4 on block because she can FC her aerials immediately at ground level. However, this is not ridiculous in Peach's case because she is slow. This part of her design isn't 'bad' for the game because it's simply her receiving great lockdown potential as a reward for going through all the work of getting in (more characters need rewards like this). However, extrapolate this type of situation to ROB. If ROB could get immediate aerials from a 'grounded boost' like this, I can only assume that it would also have the boost to damage (and thus shieldstun). This would only serve to further antagonize the problem that, as I understand it, the entire PM community besides us has with ROB - the problem that he has airdashes that are 'hard' to react to and deal with. I would imagine this is also why he can't initiate a dash below a certain height above the ground (this is actually a very common mechanic in anime fighters with airdashes).

Edit: I'm not sure if ROB's fair would come out so low to the ground, but even if it didn't, he would be able to transition into no-impact land for some nasty stuff straight from a grounded position. Not sure if the game needs stuff so potentially polarizing right now.

 

[moonfolk]

I personally don't even understand the nerf at all. I could see it being "one strong hit" and moving forward while reflecting instead of 3.5 multihits moving forward while reflecting. I don't know, I didn't see it abused I guess. :/ Of your poll options, tackle-only makes the most sense to me, but it would be derpy if it wasn't better in some way than 3.5. Low-to-ground boost FTW though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ECB=environmental collision box, it determines where your character has to be to land, the rules of how the change can be weird, for example they usually only refresh their shape every 10 frames depending on what animation your character is in, trying to predict consequences of changes that involve air->ground transitioning like this gets a little wonky. Additionally, ROB currently has this weird thing where if you run offstage then boost back on instantly, his position is marked as grounded in a weird way that refreshes his boosts before he even goes into no-impact land, so a lot of us are hazy on the details of how boosting so close to the ground actually works

 

[M Murphy]

Now I'm just spitballing here, but what if it (the grounded side b) was changed to behave how it did in Brawl or how it does in Smash 4? Long move where you spin, multi-hit, reflector, and maybe (this part is a bit greedy but whatever) a strong hit at the end like it used to have? Not to strong, but strong enough to kill at higher percents. It's not a great move, but maybe it could be better than what is in place now?

I'm not sure if we'll be getting back the 3.5 side b, but if PMBR are admant on keeping the new side b, I would like (as previously stated) for it to start up quicker and have a better reflect box since it doesn't always do it's job in its current state.

Edit 1: I don't think we really need a only tackle side b with no reflect since that may as well be a dash attack.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Considering how mediocre ROB's dash attack is (it's basically a combo extender and nothing else), having side-b as a replacement is kinda a good thing. Brawl/SmUsh side-b would suck because they are slow as **** in a game where micro-spacing on the ground is way easier, basically making it easier to just punish once it ends. If it were quicker... then it'd basically just be old side-b with less horizontal movement.

 

[Dandizzle]

Characters can have pretty useless specials, I really don't care what happens 2 side B but whenever I use it I'm like "wtf is this lmaooooooo". The move itself is pretty ****ty but it just looks so weird as R.O.B slightly leans forwards and fails his arms. And only one hitbox connection from that flurry is just silly. If there really is some underlying reason on why they changed it this way (not like we'll hear it, back when we knew who made R.O.B we didn't get feedback and I dunno who the hell is running this ****show now) and it must stay put at least give it some interesting property like decent shield damage so it can be applied in some gimmicky combo to be turned into a gfycat to show me mum. At this point I don't see much point in using it in 95% of my matches even once, and there aren't really that many truly terrible specials like that left (chain) so it seems out of character for the PMDT to create a new one, even if it can still see use. Again I am fine with characters having these bad moves but I don't know why Side B was bodied so much, yes it was burst movement and design-wise the PMDT hate those moves but it didn't really DEFINE what made/makes R.O.B really freaking annoying. From someone who plays the character its nice that R.O.B actually is very similar in play due to drastic changes being done to the arm rotor in comparison to a more essential part of his kit and I can see why they wanted to keep R.O.B players happy like this, but what's left is so banal.

Again don't really care what happens, but it's just really confusing and I didn't have more pressing matters to attend to at 3 A.M. This post is probably just as much of a joke as the 3.6 arm rotor.

 

[DrinkingFood]

side-b was bodied because it was determined that having a reflector approach was dumb
But nevermind the amount of commitment contained in moving towards your opponent with a 50-frame move though. It was punishable on shield (regardless of cross-up), could escape the last hit if spaced too close and CC it at low percents if spaced well. TBH i think it was overrated by non-ROB players because the counter-meta hadn't fully developed yet (as if the meta for anything has developed yet tho). In some ways the new side-b is better for reflecting stuff since using it at a distance is less punishable; but honestly ROB's best way to deal with projectiles is still his gyro because it makes shielding projectiles super safe even if you don't powershield, you can immediately retaliate and approach with your own projectile, or even just throwing gyro at projectiles to get through, or leaving it on the ground and protecting it to make opponents nervous about your positioning while being able to do little about it without approaching, etc. Meanwhile side-b had enough start-up for the reflection that for many projectiles you would need to read when they were going to be using them up-close, effectively meaning your opponent had initial control in the situation you'd be reflecting in. Not to say side-b was a bad reflector- in the situations it worked for (any time the projectile was shot low enough to hit them on its and close enough to react to and with too much endlag for the projectile to whiff and close enough for the side-b to hit them after the projectile) it did a really good job of turning a projectile from a nuisance to you to a threat/knockdown/offstage situation against them. But gyro works better against projectiles, gyro's hindrance lying in the commitment in getting it out+in your hands. Having a tool like gyro, I'd rather play the fighting game of trying to get it out in order to have a tool against projectiles rather than not having any grounded burst-range tool, hence i'd rather have tackle-only arm rotor.

 

[Sneez]

i'll agree with the pmdt that it needed a change, was probably too good against olimar (side-b would reflect his fsmashes lol). it was also really good against wolf, lucas and samus. Haven't played 3.6 enough but id say id probably be happy with the 3.6 side-b if there was less startup. id guess the newer side-b is probably better against falco than the old one but worse against wolf, which is a good trade id say. not sure if its my lack of mu experience but i have a way tougher time against falco.

 

[bubbaking]

Definitely worse right now against Falco, but that could change if the move had less start-up (probably not, though).

New idea: What if we just got a weird ROB-version of Mario's cape? Basically, ROB does one quick rotation of his arms (like, one cycle out of the 50 rotation cycles in his current sideB) that reflects projectiles. No hitbox, other than a reflectbox, and unlike cape, no flipping opponents around. Just a nice fast reflect that's flexible yet still situational.

 

[M Murphy]

I would love for the side b to have better start-up, even if it had less active frames. Having a reflector is a great way to mess with people and make some matchups easier . If it was a tackle move, I could see it *maybe* functioning a bit like Mega-Mans slide or Mario's Dash Attack and that would be rad.

Edit 1: By functioning like those, I mean I'd love if they had similar knockback to those moves.

 

[zakzedd]

Dumb idea that may or may not be dumb. If we could jump cancel the reflector like spacies can with shines, it would solve a lot of rob's problems.

It solves the stupid end lag the move has
the knock back of it is pretty similar to wolf or falco's shine, giving rob a combo move that isn't just throw follow ups.
Shield pressure is actually a thing, with projectiles it makes shield poking much easier
Wave shining is a thing, allowing for shine juggles that wolf does with spacies.
Lastly, reflector would be a move we can actually use.

Might be too powerful if pmdt just made it jump cancelable without other changes. I'd be totally fine with a damage, hit box or how long the hitbox stays out nerf if this was a thing.
Not that this idea will ever be implemented or anything, just a thought.

 

[bubbaking]

We can't always solve our problems by giving another character a shine...

...although it would be nice.

 

[M Murphy]

That would be amazing. I'm don't think it would happen, but that would be really cool. Just imagine if ROB had shine-like pressure for grounded side b XD. Just boost-fair, l-cancel, shine, boost fair, l-cancel, shine, etc

 

[Deleted member]

So what do you guys think about 3.6 full side b?

 

[M Murphy]

I have not had the chance to try it but (conceptually) the improvements over beta side b are great! I'm hoping reflector is more reliable now and am waiting for the iso builder to come out (I'd like to build a full iso so I can use alt-stage loader but probably not gonna happen :/ )

 

[Sneez]

the new rob is sexy af

 

[M Murphy]

I made a post detailing all the changes (including the changes to the roll data). Not sure if our rolls got buffed or nerfed I'm not very good when it comes to interpreting said data http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-3-6-full-release-rob-changes.414388/