Syracuse Smash 3- RaynEx, Unknown522, San!!!! July 24 2010

[Sheth]

Sheth, you better ****ing come. Who's going to be absurdly loud if you aren't there?!

I'll be absurdly loud there without being there. This is me, 8 hours of car distance is nothing.



-But yeah, I'm in maryland without the money for gas or airfare, let alone the time to travel up that far while I'm taking some summer courses.

 

[Acton]

To piedisliker. I think the no tripping should be taken off, its a part of the game that most serious tourneys have included.

 

[da K.I.D.]

most serious tourneys only leave it in because of the feasibility factor of hacking all tournament consoles.

This was assuming that:
1. Your tournament had like 15000 setups and you couldnt hack every single one of them.
2. Hacking the wii was a timely process that required homebrew and couldnt really be done on the spot for multiple wiis at the venue.

as for 1, our tourney isnt going to be so big that we cant implement a quick hack code that does nothing but improve the quality of the game.

as for 2, the hackers have improved their processes to the point where putting a no tripping and color switch code on the wii is honestly a process that takes less than 60 seconds and doesnt have any adverse affects other than deleting custom stages, which I think most of us dont have anyway.

thats why we should run this tourney no tripping.

Also, im not going to lie to you guys, if I was the one with the sd card and codes, and you decided to run the tourney with tripping on, i would just bring my stuff anyway and turn it off regardless, because one, its so fast, youre not going to notice somebody doing it. and 2, you would never notice it when you play anyway.

 

[PieDisliker]

Plenty of time to think it all over. I'm sure most of us wouldn't like a game like Lain vs. Logic (where Logic trips and Lain gets a grab off of it and wins the set), but I really don't care if it's on or off.

 

[Gaia_x]

Unfortunately tripping is apart of the game, and for that reason it should not be changed. In defense of this id like to state that tripping isnt always bad. A lot of the time its saved me. while it has cost me. I feel its a 50/50 chance that tripping will be a good or a bad thing.

 

[altairian]

If you don't want to trip, don't dash. High level players walk more often than not, it allows you to shield faster and prevents tripping, take a lesson from them.

 

[Gaia_x]

Or stay in the air!!

 

[altairian]

Yeah so cura can grab you as soon as you land!

 

[TheManaLord]

i'm definitely down to team w you zeb. i'll practice up for this me and jeff going hardcore training mode

 

[MattDotZeb]

Also, im not going to lie to you guys, if I was the one with the sd card and codes, and you decided to run the tourney with tripping on, i would just bring my stuff anyway and turn it off regardless, because one, its so fast, youre not going to notice somebody doing it. and 2, you would never notice it when you play anyway.

If you did this at a mass madness and I found out I'd restart the wii and have it play as normal.

You really, really shouldn't go against the TO like that..



By the way, if you want any help running this or have any uncertainties about the melee ruleset and whatnot I'll be willing to help out

 

[Gaia_x]

Also, im not going to lie to you guys, if I was the one with the sd card and codes, and you decided to run the tourney with tripping on, i would just bring my stuff anyway and turn it off regardless, because one, its so fast, youre not going to notice somebody doing it. and 2, you would never notice it when you play anyway.

If you were to do this id dq you completely from the tournament no warnings.

You mainly want tripping off cause your a sonic main.

Tripping will stay on throughout the whole tournament. I may decide to allow it if both players agree but tripping must stay on by default. Its part of the game learn to get around it and learn to take advantage of it.

Will have: Tags in replays, infinate replays.
Debatable and important: Random tripping removed, red, blue, and green textures for Sonic, Lucario, and Pokemon Trainer.
Debatable and lulzy: Non-limited camera, textures on banned stages, custom music on banned stages, custom victory themes, custom menu theme, other non-stage custom music, other?

Tags in replays is fine.
Infinite replay is fine.
Textures, stage hacks and custom music is fine, but if a player requests that they be off for a tournament match then they must be turned off.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i mean if youre going to make me trip, than at the very least i demand the ability to mind game you with a red sonic thats still blue.

 

[ThisKidJuni]

I'm pretty sure I will be able to attend this.

 

[Gaia_x]

If everyone agree to it than you can do as you'd like.

 

[hubble]

I'll be here as long as I can get off from work

 

[PieDisliker]

Just wonderin', are the stage lists up to debate at all or are they absolutely confirmed?

 

[VibeSlyph]

Lol. You know, I main the character with the slowest Dash > Shield, and I still don't walk for safety.

Aggro all day.
[I suck at brawl.]

Btw, I'll bring a Wii with Melee + Brawl, if someone can match me with a TV.

 

[Gaia_x]

Stage lists are up for debate piedisliker

 

[altairian]

Btw, I'll bring a Wii with Melee + Brawl, if someone can match me with a TV.

I'm gonna have at least 2 tv's, bring it

 

[Acton]

This is what I want to see for stages. It's what NJ is going to use for their stage list and I like it very much. Our current stage list is similar but I'd like it changed to this for some very specific reasons.

Neutrals

Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story (Brawl)
Smashville
Lylat
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege/ Battleship Halberd


Counter Picks

Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege/ Battleship Halberd
PictoChat
Brinstar
Norfair** (Debatable)

It's pretty much the same thing minus rainbow cruise. MK has to many cps he can choose from to get an auto win. A legit region (NJ) is using these rules. I like that we have more neutrals to pick from so there will be a variety of stages that individuals go to for the first match. In my experience most first matches usually go to bf or sv. With these new neutrals we'll see more diversity.

I'm pretty much neutral about norfair, as a falco main I don't like it. A lot of other characters aren't good on it though, and some are. Its just part of the NJ stage list that I ditto'd that I'm neutral on. I just thought I'd open up that stage list to discussion.

Extra Rules

Double blind character selection may be called for the first match

• 35 Ledge grab rule, 40 for Norfair ( if you time out each other in a match and you go over 35 ledge grabs you lose that match. )

• Scrooging: If you fly under the stage, you must land on the stage in order to repeat flying under the stage again. The moving platform, or any other platform that is distant from the stage (IE: Smashvilles Moving platform) does not count as landing on the stage. First offence is a warning, second offence is a loss of stock, 3rd offence is a loss of set.

• All Infinites are banned excluding Ice climbers Chain Grabs, and all small step chain grabs are banned. Wall infinites are NOT banned.

• All Excessive "Stall" tactics are banned.
• Controller Mods are banned

*Violation of any rule is punishable by non-refunded disqualification

I think the lgl should be lowered to 35 since its a number generated by well known players that limit stall tactics. 5 more lgs could make the difference in certain mu's. I would deviate from NJs rule about the lg rule only applying in the event of a timeout and apply it to the match as a whole. I believe the rules as they stand right now are like this but are at 40 lgs and not 35.


Pretty much my main focus is on the cps. I feel like rainbow cruise mostly offers the same sort of features other already existing stages offer to limit most characters. Having both brinstar and rainbow cruise as CPs gives certain characters (MK) an auto win on their cp. Also other players seeking to limit x characters abilities on x stage have two similar stages to choose from that limit the same sort of things in x characters.

NJ thread concerning ruleset:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278166&page=9

 

[Sharky]

that's where I got the idea for the seven stage starter list from, and I figured halberd was more fair than castle siege, but of course that's just my opinion. (and castle siege is my counterpick so this definitely isn't personal bias lol)

norfair will never be legal here because nobody wants to give Neil a free counterpick.

also having both brinstar and norfair would be just as bad as having brinstar and rainbow cruise, except the other characters that benefit would be slightly different.

I'd like to think that I trust everyone here enough to not need the scrooging rule, but I guess there isn't any harm in having it.

 

[Gaia_x]

Acton imo instead of ripping from nj rulebook i feel that we as a community need to come up with out own stage list and ruleset instead of just copying from others.

Now for some other issues listed.


1) Scrooging rule ill update however it unlikely that'll we will need it but ill put it on there anyways.

2) I will add the double blind rule.

3) What ill do for the ledge grab rules is this. If it results in a time out. 35 and/or more ledge grabs will result in a loss of this match. With an 8 minute timer 35 should be a resonable amount. I have it currently set at 40 ledge grab limit even if the match doesnt result in a time out, I have this do to our region ability to abuse ledge tactics. Such as Neil doing jolts to regrabs, Sharky doing 5 eggs every 2 seconds, Even i have been known to plank the ledge with mk even ice climbers! I feel that these tactics give alot of players and advantage and some a disadvantage and needs to be toned down greatly.

4) Due to the amount of character walk off and side gays, i feel castle siege will remain as a counter pick. It give wayyy to many character and advantage on game 1 that seems rather unfair.

5) Infinite rule i add.

6) Nofair will not be legal. As far as rainbow cruise goes. Its up for discussiong, however i dont have a problem with rainbow cruise its not cp'd alot in our region so im not to concerned

 

[da K.I.D.]

I really like rainbow cruise. Goes aside from the norm, but at the same time doesnt do anything super broken. its a scrolling stage, that scrolls the exact same way every single time. You always know whats coming next but at the same time, its a lot of uneven ground to make people fight at unusual angle. Quite a unique stage. I also dont think we have a meta problem here, so theres not much need to put in anti meta specific rulings, unless oos people are coming... and with the number of tourneys in our area happening this weekend, I dont think thats gonna happen.

 

[PieDisliker]

I do think that if Rainbow Cruise and Norfair get banned, that Japes should be a legal stage.

IMO, some reasonable stages are getting overlooked. There's a couple of matchups where I'd rather cp other stages against characters over Rainbow Cruise, such as Diddy or DDD. I'd rather take them Frigate or Lylat then Rainbow Cruise.

Japes is overlooked because there are multiple chars good on that stage and not just meta. DK, Falco, Kirby, etc. all good on that stage. Some of them I'd consider banning that stage against.

 

[altairian]

The problem with japes isn't that characters are good on that stage. Certain characters are BROKEN AS HELL on that stage. Falco being the worst offender, but DK is way way up there too. I personally would vote for japes never being legal anywhere ever, it's essentially a free win for certain characters and that kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[da K.I.D.]

super good for peach and rob too.

but some people just get upset because they dont know that the klaptrap comes on a set schedule and than they get eaten and say it was random and a lack of skill that led to their stock disappearing.

but japes has always been a very reasonable stage in my eyes. just like every other counterpick, you have to learn the stage and know some things before you go in. but theres nothing broken about it.

also, for anyone that wants to accuse me of ulterior motives, if anyone takes me or if I take anyone to japes, should it be legal for the tourney, ill be going sonic and not falco.

@alt. theres no such thing as a free win.
san has beaten both mine and actons falcos on japes. where as my sonic has beaten him there.
I also was beating jasons dk regularly when he was counterpicking that stage.

you dont have any proof to back your claim

 

[PieDisliker]

I definately don't think they're THAT broken there. A couple chars may have an advantage turned into a disadvantage or disadvantage increased on that stage, but it isn't a ridiculous stage. And I do think that making Rainbow Cruise, Japes, and Norfair all illegal stages is quite a bit of an unnessacary stretch.

 

[altairian]

super good for peach and rob too.

but some people just get upset because they dont know that the klaptrap comes on a set schedule and than they get eaten and say it was random and a lack of skill that led to their stock disappearing.

but japes has always been a very reasonable stage in my eyes. just like every other counterpick, you have to learn the stage and know some things before you go in. but theres nothing broken about it.

also, for anyone that wants to accuse me of ulterior motives, if anyone takes me or if I take anyone to japes, should it be legal for the tourney, ill be going sonic and not falco.

@alt. theres no such thing as a free win.
san has beaten both mine and actons falcos on japes. where as my sonic has beaten him there.
I also was beating jasons dk regularly when he was counterpicking that stage.

you dont have any proof to back your claim

I knew you would jump right on me for saying that.

3 people IS NOT a valid statistical sample. Especially when it's people that play each other a lot and know how to counter the player.

Ganon has MU's that are "essentially" a free win for the other character. Does that mean ganon has never and will never beat that character? No, but it's so highly skewed that it's ********. Japes is the same way, it favors certain characters TOO much.

That's the last thing I'm gonna say on it, feel free to go off on more ridiculousness if you feel the need goggles.

 

[da K.I.D.]

3 people is not a valid statistical example. But its more valid than the proof you have given thusfar.

I would honestly love to see any proof of what you say, aside from just what you are saying.

I would gladly change my mind, but currently theres no real evidence to back you claim...

 

[Gaia_x]

This is what i think.

Japes will never be legal. And being main host of this tournament it will not be legal this tournament.

Rainbow cruise. I dont mind personnally, im not bias in this decision seeing how Ice climbers get counter-picked there almost 24/7 and as much as id love for it to be gone from the stage list. I just dont see a good reason other than i dont like it. However i will leave rainbow cruise up for debate and maybe do a poll later.

Norfair. I personally do not think this should be legal at all. However i will leave this open for debate as well. My vote on it is no, but if majority wants it i will allow.


100% no to japes though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, you can confirm pikapika and an old friend of ours PJ

no japes? poo on you then...

San, when we meet in finals, if our set goes to last game, I propose that we both agree to go to japes.

 

[PieDisliker]

I'm starting to think that it'd be best to keep RC, and not have Norfair.

Even tho I <3 Norfair and it's my new favorite stage, I think that Rainbow is a more fair stage as long as the character has a decent recovery. Just about the entire top & high tier, some mid tiers, and I think a couple low tiers would do fine on this stage. The ship also keeps the matches relatively even.

Norfair probably shouldn't be legal, in the case of chars that can migrate from platform to platform quicker will have an advantage. Although I could see it being legal as most characters probably wouldn't fall for the stages hazards, and the boundaries to the stage are... pretty huge. If MK didn't have a glide I'd say this stage should be legal. However, I feel this stage shuts down more characters than RC.

 

[Sheth]

I can respect Cura banning japes, on the grounds that there's a lot of general talk of characters wrecking on that stage. Falco and DK being the ones I hear. But, we also haven't broken it that badly as a reigon; this is partially because we've only got two people playing falco and DK. So while it might be right, we shouldn't fret about it too much. We're all cool in the reigon anyway, so there'll be people comfortable with picking out of the stage set.

-That said, use the rules as a guidline. Try and press for things you think'll lead to a good fun match as much as possible, be it in or out of the tourney list. I know I've had a really legit marth vs. falco vs acton on that stage, partially because he didn't know how to capitalize, but partially, just because I played real coolly and was keeping my head clear. I wouldn't give him the middle.

There's been some push and pull between syracuse and rochester rulesets through the year, and I think that's fine. We'll get a little of both. If cura's not open to japes, well, that's cool I guess. Though, kinda weirded out by the lack of love for castle siege.

 

[Sanu]

I'll see if Canada wants to come and take your money when does the event start? We'd be coming and leaving the day of so lemme know... unless someone closer to the venue can house us. Oh yeah, make the entrance fee for singles $10 and for doubles $20; that way you might attract more people this time.

Our condolences regarding Bry btw, **** sucks.

 

[Spamus43]

So I took a closer look at the pictures on the first page. Are we gonna be in... like... an art gallery? Or is it just a big space where people can put on exhibitions? Cause I don't wanna turn around and knock over some $79348789, 4th century sculpture or some ****.

Venue: $5
Entry: $10
That statue you just broke: Priceless

Some things money can't buy; then you're fvcked.

 

[Sanu]

also, are you going to be doing pools for singles? or just a straight tourney bracket?

if time permits, i'd suggest pools for singles and a straight bracket for doubles to avoid terrible seeding in singles. this would help in avoiding ******** **** such as this (melee singles SS2):

by third round brackets i'm playing raynex, a fellow canadian. other third round bracket matches include:

Canadian v Not Canadian
unknown v zoso
kirbykaze v pikapika

Not Canadian v Not Canadian
jessiahteg v dudetsai

Canadian v Canadian
raynex v sanuzi

The ideal seeding would have resulted in these matchups:

unknown v zoso
kirbykaze v pikapika
Raynex v (dudestai or jessiah)
sanuzi v (dudestai or jessiah)

proper seeding via proper pools would have fixed this, so i think doing pools or just proper seeding in general would be helpful

 

[da K.I.D.]

so what youre saying is, by the time we get to the top 8, even though 5 of the top 8 came in your car, none of you should have to play each other?

i mean i feel like you might be trying to micro manage the brackets a little too much if theres only like 5 rounds before winners finals and youre still not trying to play anybody in your region in round 3

if there was like 8 rounds before the finals than you would have a valid concern, but I personally think you might be asking a bit much.

 

[Gaia_x]

also, are you going to be doing pools for singles? or just a straight tourney bracket?

if time permits, i'd suggest pools for singles and a straight bracket for doubles to avoid terrible seeding in singles. this would help in avoiding ******** **** such as this (melee singles SS2):
by third round brackets i'm playing raynex, a fellow canadian. other third round bracket matches include:

Canadian v Not Canadian
unknown v zoso
kirbykaze v pikapika

Not Canadian v Not Canadian
jessiahteg v dudetsai

Canadian v Canadian
raynex v sanuzi

The ideal seeding would have resulted in these matchups:

unknown v zoso
kirbykaze v pikapika
Raynex v (dudestai or jessiah)
sanuzi v (dudestai or jessiah)

proper seeding via proper pools would have fixed this, so i think doing pools or just proper seeding in general would be helpful

Sanuzi looking at the bracket now i completely agree with you, you'd have to forgive my seeding at the previous event, As someone who plays mostly brawl I am unaware of a lot of the melee players in terms of whose from what region and skill level. Seeding will be a lot better this time around and perhaps you yourself can help with the seeding of the players.

Also if attendance is good i will definitely do pools without a doubt which of course will make seeding a lot easier but i will need someone to help me with the pool seeding as well. Id like to get in touch with you and discuss some of the melee stuff if you dont mind.


And spamus the venue is a place where you can post up art and rent the room out for exhibits and such. There will be no art there at the time of the tournament lol so no broken stuff.

 

[Erkekjetter]

Ugh, I really want to make it to this one.

 

[Gaia_x]

Then come make it!