"Swordies"

Avokha

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#1
So as I'm sure everyone is aware, characters with swords are pretty good in this game. With their newfound surge in popularity, the term "swordy" has been adopted by the community to categorize this archetype. I've begun to notice, however, that the term is mostly used to refer to marth/lucina, roy/chrom, ike, and sometimes cloud and shulk. What exactly does the community consider "swordy?"
Obviously having a sword is the main prerequisite, but several sword wielding characters have movsets not entirely dedicated to swordplay, like all three links with projectiles and what is seemingly merely supplementary sword moves in their kits, corrin who fights with draconic powers just as much, if not MORE so, than they fight with yato, robin who utilizes a dual sword-projectile zoning style unique to the FE cast, and the pits, who technically aren't actually using swords, but rather a divine bow.
So what qualifies in your minds as a "swordy?" The line seems to blur on some characters to me.
 
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Teeb147

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#2
So as I'm sure everyone is aware, characters with swords are pretty good in this game. With their newfound surge in popularity, the term "swordy" has been adopted by the community to categorize this archetype. I've begun to notice, however, that the term is mostly used to refer to marth/lucina, roy/chrom, ike, and sometimes cloud and shulk. What exactly does the community consider "swordy?"
Obviously having a sword is the main prerequisite, but several sword wielding characters have movsets not entirely dedicated to swordplay, like all three links with projectiles and what is seemingly merely supplementary sword moves in their kits, corrin who fights with draconic powers just as much, if not MORE so, than they fight with yato, robin who utilizes a dual sword-projectile zoning style unique to the FE cast, and the pits, who technically aren't actually using swords, but rather a divine bow.
So what qualifies in your minds as a "swordy?" The line seems to blur on some characters to me.
Well, any character with a sword is a swordy, but obviously the ranged disjoint of marthcina and Ike are the ones people have the most trouble with, and will talk more about. Cloud's range was nerfed some, and not a lot of people are using Shulk yet (but I think will be as tough once we see more).
Robin has that with levin sword, but then some of the match they can't really zone well with it cuz of losing it.

Links can't rely on the sword attacks as much, so maybe he's overlooked a little because of that. They're all swordies, but the context people talk in probably just focuses more on the really good ones right now.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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#3
What defines a swordie?

Better question: do they wield a sword?

If they do, then they are a swordie.

Use a sword in most of their moveset (major swordies)::ultcloud::ultcorrin:/:ultcorrinf::ultike::ultlink::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultmetaknight::ultswordfighter::ultrobin:/:ultrobinf::ultroy::ultchrom::ultshulk::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink:
Use a sword in limited use (minor swordies): :ultganondorf::ultpit::ultdarkpit:(Kind of, unless you count them as daggers, in which they go a rank below)
Use a blade other than a sword (are not swordies): :ultmegaman:(It's made of fire for crying out loud) :ultkirby:(Cutter) :ultgreninja:(Correct me if I'm wrong but Greninja has been clarified to use daggers or something other than a sword in his water blades) :ultsheik:(Daggers in Final Smash):ultwolf:(Bayonet) :ultgnw:(Key)
 
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Krimnorr

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#4
Swordy refers to any character with big, disjointed hitboxes. They're called swordies since most of these characters also wield swords. But you could also say Ridley is somewhat of a swordy with his tail disjoints, and even Olimar if you count the pikman as disjointed.
 

WolfCypher

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#5
Doesnt Lucario have disjointed hitboxes, too?

I usually just think of what you apparently call "swordies" as anime sword characters. In my mind, they have to have disjointed hitboxes, a pronounced sword on their character, and don't have the luxury of fighting from all ranges (ie, they dont have a lot of projectiles like the Links, cannot camp if they wanted), you know, they have a very swordplay gamestyle so for me, :ultcloud::ultcorrinf::ultike::ultchrom::ultshulk::ultmarth::ultroy::ultlucina: all count.

The ones that make this logic tricky are :ultmiifighters::ultrobin: because by my own standards Robin for instance breaks one of those three rules, but by force of habit, having a sword, looking the way he does, and being a FE rep, my mind wants to include him all the same.

Being a Pit man since Brawl, Ive never once saw :ultpit: as an anime swordfighter; I actually not too long ago had an arguement with a coworker over whether Pit's Bow count as a sword as I said no because they can turn into ""blades"" but blades dont automatically count as swords, not to mention Pit doesnt play as a stereotypical swordfighter, and definitely has the projectile game to fight a camping game.

I think its also just aesthetics. There's a reason why :ultlink::ultyounglink::ulttoonlink: are never deemed these (if going by my personal head rules what constitutes one) by the Smash majority while every single FE rep is. Marth and his Melee clone Roy started this nomenclature and most current FE reps save for Robin and maybe Ike all have their movesets comparable to Marth. The term seemed to had started as a snarky way to complain about too much FE and now can include any new fighter with a sword regardless or franchise. Hell, just yesterday on either here or ******* gamefaqs (why i continue to bother with that site...) someone even complained about Joker being "another damn anime character", not anime SWORD character mind you.

Well, thats my headrules.
 
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Ratmouse

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#6
"Swordies" isn't a new term. AFAIK, it originated around the same time as the term "spacies" in Melee. So the reason for the lack of a solid definition is probably the history of the word, and it being used by different people to mean different things as time went on.

Originally, it just meant Marth and Roy, and it made sense to add Ike to that category in Brawl. I would say the above poster broke it down pretty well to what it means now.

(Also yeah, GameFAQs Smash boards are a mess. I would stop going, but there's a lot more activity there)
 
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Arrei

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#7
Here's the thing about calling "swordie" an archetype term - unlike other terms like "rushdown", "zoner" or "grappler", calling someone a swordie doesn't define their playstyle. It's little more than a nickname used to refer to anyone who primarily wields a sword as part of their moveset, and that's why it's so vague and some people seem to only be talking about FE characters when they use it, despite that group containing sword-wielders with very different playstyles.
 
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Crystanium

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#8
A swordie is a character who spends most of his or her time using a sword. A character like Link isn't a swordie, but a futbol player. He relies heavily on a knocking around a glowing, blue ball. Mii Swordfighter isn't a swordie, either, since most use ring tossing or a gust of wind most of the time in combat. Mii Swordfighter is better named Mii Shooter, just to distinguish between Mii Gunner. Or perhaps Mii Not Sure What I Am. If a character relies mainly on a sword, that character is a swordie.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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#12
Soon as I see a Marth anywhere in top 8, maybe I'll see to the no skill bit.
OK, real talk, what did they do to Marth!?

Like, people are saying all 3 of the Marth clones are better than Marth himself for various reason. I get it that the whole "in your face" rush playstyle of all the others is simpler than Marth's thank's to Untimate's overall changes, but never in a hundred years did I expect to see :ultroy::ultchrom::ultlucina: in S tier and :ultmarth:in A tier. This is super crazy.

And yeah Marth has like Zero tournament results. Kind of like King K. Rool.
 

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#15
They dont. Only sword users would get salty about it.
You know, some people say Ness takes no skill. Would you disagree with that, or would you say those people just don't know how to fight Ness?

Sword fighters tend to have lackluster frame data to balance out their disjoints. Poorly timed attacks have a tendency to be snuffed out by faster moves or punished on shield if they aren't spaced correctly. Characters with good mobility tend to give them trouble as they can more easily get into boxing range where swordies struggle.

A swordie main isn't going to go to far if they don't learn to space their attacks. And spacing takes, you know, skill. I play Ivysaur a lot who while not a true swordie has similar attributes and I often find myself overspacing my attacks and then getting punished for it. The same thing can easily happen to a Lucina or Ike who recklessly hits the A button without thinking.
 

Perfect patricia

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#17
I hate how it’s so many sword characters with identical movesets. You got like 4 fire emblem characters with the same move set, 3 links with the same move set as well. The only unique one was robin and shulk. Corrin doesn’t belong in smash imo we could had gotten a cartooney character instead of another spiky hair anime weeb. And plus fighting sword characters is just annoying especially on battlefield stages just spam nair and up air on platforms. Robin is an except for that playstyle
 

Mogisthelioma

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#18
Sword fighters tend to have lackluster frame data to balance out their disjoints.
Maybe on ther Smash attacks but let's be honest. Cloud, Roy, Chrom, etc. All have lightning frames.
Poorly timed attacks have a tendency to be snuffed out by faster moves or punished on shield if they aren't spaced correctly. Characters with good mobility tend to give them trouble as they can more easily get into boxing range where swordies struggle.
This really only applies to Marth who hits sour if the opponent is too close Any of the fighters with balanced hitboxes (Roy especially with his sweetspot close to him) don't suffer too much when someone gets that close.
 

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#19
Maybe on ther Smash attacks but let's be honest. Cloud, Roy, Chrom, etc. All have lightning frames.

This really only applies to Marth who hits sour if the opponent is too close Any of the fighters with balanced hitboxes (Roy especially with his sweetspot close to him) don't suffer too much when someone gets that close.
There frame data still tends to be outsped by close range brawlers like Mario, Pikachu and Squirtle.

And no, all sword fighters have to space well. Not because of damage, but because of safety. Again brawlers tend to have better fre data so they have an easy time punishing poorly spaced sword attacks on shield. This will be even more true when more people master parrying.

Roy is the only one who doesn't space and that's only because he's designed not to.
 

Luigifan18

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#20
Why are we even humoring RepStar? He's clearly a scrub looking for trouble. I may not be good at this game, but at least I’m self-aware about it and don’t expect the game to bend itself to my whims so I can defeat players who are actually skilled.
 
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RepStar

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#21
There frame data still tends to be outsped by close range brawlers like Mario, Pikachu and Squirtle.

And no, all sword fighters have to space well. Not because of damage, but because of safety. Again brawlers tend to have better fre data so they have an easy time punishing poorly spaced sword attacks on shield. This will be even more true when more people master parrying.

Roy is the only one who doesn't space and that's only because he's designed not to.
Brawlers tend to have better frame data- lmao what? Captain falcon? No. Its not difficult at all or challenging, (or whatever other skill word) to use swordies. That spacing crap youre talking about is as easy as just not getting close when you attack because your faster frames, long reach, and disjointed hitbox will protect you. How blind does someone gotta be to not do something as simple as attack from distance..swordies take no skill. Im not even gonna ***** about the counters and projectiles they have. Talk about overkill.
 
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Avokha

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#23
Just to clarify, the question is under a competitive context lol.

Under a casual context, obviously a swordie is just someone wielding a sword and we can call it a day at that. Most players don't seem to refer to every 'swordie' when talking about swordies however, only specific ones. Why could that be? :confused:
 
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Zachmac

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#24
Brawlers tend to have better frame data- lmao what? Captain falcon? No. Its not difficult at all or challenging, (or whatever other skill word) to use swordies. That spacing crap youre talking about is as easy as just not getting close when you attack because your faster frames, long reach, and disjointed hitbox will protect you. How blind does someone gotta be to not do something as simple as attack from distance..swordies take no skill. Im not even gonna ***** about the counters and projectiles they have. Talk about overkill.
Captain Falcon has a frame 3 jab. Lucina's fastest attack is her frame 5 jab. In point blank range, Falcon's attack will win. Heck, even Charizard would beat her with his frame 4 jab. Well Dolphin Slash has intangibility on frame 4 I guess but that moves a huge commitment for obvious reasons.

It's hard to space attacks when a character moves faster then you, has a tiny body or a better projectile game. Unless they're blindly running into your attacks that is.
 

Luigifan18

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#25
Captain Falcon has a frame 3 jab. Lucina's fastest attack is her frame 5 jab. In point blank range, Falcon's attack will win. Heck, even Charizard would beat her with his frame 4 jab. Well Dolphin Slash has intangibility on frame 4 I guess but that moves a huge commitment for obvious reasons.

It's hard to space attacks when a character moves faster then you, has a tiny body or a better projectile game. Unless they're blindly running into your attacks that is.
You're talking to someone whose entire "gameplan" is just bumbling into hitboxes.
 

RepStar

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#26
Captain Falcon has a frame 3 jab. Lucina's fastest attack is her frame 5 jab. In point blank range, Falcon's attack will win. Heck, even Charizard would beat her with his frame 4 jab. Well Dolphin Slash has intangibility on frame 4 I guess but that moves a huge commitment for obvious reasons.

It's hard to space attacks when a character moves faster then you, has a tiny body or a better projectile game. Unless they're blindly running into your attacks that is.
Wooow. Smh. Theres a con to every fighter type. Doesnt mean that swordies didnt get the better treatment and dont have it the worst. Its not that many characters that move faster than swordies, its not like they dont move at the speed of sound already for whatever unexplainable reason considering how heavy a ****ing sword is. Cant believe you complained about speed with swordies, lmao.

Edit: and you mentioned smaller characters when the majority of sword attacks cover a 360 angle and/or the hitbox is so damn long or big even after the animation finishes you still get hit. LOL.

Edit: btw, to the ppl like luigifan we can easily play eachother if im a scrub then come prove it, its so easy to host a quick arena match and play so im willing to vs any swordie in this thread if youre that offended. Luigifan i already have you on ignore for the longest time , why dont you just do the same and stop mentioning my username. This is my first time ever even saying something to u but, apparently a comment and seeing my username bothers you so much. Lol. But we can still play together if you want.
 
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Zachmac

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#27
Wooow. Smh. Theres a con to every fighter type. Doesnt mean that swordies didnt get the better treatment and dont have it the worst. Its not that many characters that move faster than swordies, its not like they dont move at the speed of sound already for whatever unexplainable reason considering how heavy a ****ing sword is. Cant believe you complained about speed with swordies, lmao.

Edit: and you mentioned smaller characters when the majority of sword attacks cover a 360 angle and/or the hitbox is so damn long or big even after the animation finishes you still get hit. LOL.

Edit: btw, to the ppl like luigifan we can easily play eachother if im a scrub then come prove it, its so easy to host a quick arena match and play so im willing to vs any swordie in this thread if youre that offended. Luigifan i already have you on ignore for the longest time , why dont you just do the same and stop mentioning my username. This is my first time ever even saying something to u but, apparently a comment and seeing my username bothers you so much. Lol. But we can still play together if you want.
There's no denying that Lucina is good in this game. In fact I won't even deny that she's one of the easier characters to play.

But I take issue with the idea that being good or easy equates to having no skill. It doesn't matter how good or "braindead" your character is if you lack fundamental skills. If you can't space well or make smart plays with a swordie then better players will notice and they will exploit the openings you leave.

Remember how I said I "overspaced" Ivysaur fairs sometimes? That means I whiffed my target. I was too careful, or my opponent drifted backwards in time to avoid my attack. A Jigglypuff player kicked my butt last night because they were able to exploit that weakness of mine, and Jiggles is a character who's supposed to have a weakness to disjoints and swords. I lost because I wasn't playing skillfully enough.
 

RepStar

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#28
There's no denying that Lucina is good in this game. In fact I won't even deny that she's one of the easier characters to play.

But I take issue with the idea that being good or easy equates to having no skill. It doesn't matter how good or "braindead" your character is if you lack fundamental skills. If you can't space well or make smart plays with a swordie then better players will notice and they will exploit the openings you leave.

Remember how I said I "overspaced" Ivysaur fairs sometimes? That means I whiffed my target. I was too careful, or my opponent drifted backwards in time to avoid my attack. A Jigglypuff player kicked my butt last night because they were able to exploit that weakness of mine, and Jiggles is a character who's supposed to have a weakness to disjoints and swords. I lost because I wasn't playing skillfully enough.
And what sword character was this that you lost to a jigglypuff
 

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#29
And what sword character was this that you lost to a jigglypuff
It was Ivysaur. Not an actual sword character, but one who plays very similar to a sword character. Ivysaur also has a reputation for being "braindead".

If I was playing Lucina it probably would have been the same song and dance. I'd be trying to space fairs, wiffing it, and getting punished.
 
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#30
Not gonna lie, I can't take anyone seriously when they use smh.

But on the actual topic, the real frustrating thing for swordies in my opinion is that if your attack hits their attack, their attack always wins. It doesn't matter what you used, your body, a vine, magic, electricity, an explosion, if it ain't a weapon you lose. Thank Sakuari that projectiles are a thing.
 

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#31
You're right, precisely spacing your attacks for maximum safety takes zero skill at all. /s
Lucina can hit other characters with a forward tilt while they're standing several pixels behind her. And anyway, it doesn't take a skilled player to demonstrate a character is OP if their moveset is inherently low-risk high reward.
 

Arrei

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#32
It doesn't matter what you used, your body, a vine, magic, electricity, an explosion, if it ain't a weapon you lose.
Well, that's just patently untrue. Vines, magic, electricity, and explosions are all disjointed hitboxes with the same properties as a weapon that won't get the user hurt if an enemy attack strikes only the hitbox and not the player's model. There are even a fair handful of attacks in the game that grant intangibility to a character's limbs so that they function as disjoints too.
 

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#33
Lucina can hit other characters with a forward tilt while they're standing several pixels behind her.
Well that sounds like it might come in handy in some really niche, specific situation.
And anyway, it doesn't take a skilled player to demonstrate a character is OP if their moveset is inherently low-risk high reward.
Strong =/= OP. Lucina is a very good character, but she's still got counterplay and is far from overpowered.

And Lucina's more low risk "fairly good" reward. She's got edgeguarding, kill power and platform sharking which is nice. On the other hand, she's not hard-hitting bruiser like heavyweights nor does she have a bunch of rewarding combos like a lot of brawlers.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#34
Why could that be?
Because Fire Emblem
It was Ivysaur. Not an actual sword character, but one who plays very similar to a sword character. Ivysaur also has a reputation for being "braindead".

If I was playing Lucina it probably would have been the same song and dance. I'd be trying to space fairs, wiffing it, and getting punished.
OK Y'all can skewer me for this but PT literally requires the least amount of skill to play than any other fighter. Squirtle's grab combos and Ivysaur's broken hitboxes make them super easy to rack up damage with and get easy KO's.
Lucina can hit other characters with a forward tilt while they're standing several pixels behind her.
Fun fact: The hitbox on Palutena's f-tilt is so wonky that it can actually klank with a dash attack incoming from behind her.
 
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#35
A swordie is a character who spends most of his or her time using a sword. A character like Link isn't a swordie, but a futbol player. He relies heavily on a knocking around a glowing, blue ball. Mii Swordfighter isn't a swordie, either, since most use ring tossing or a gust of wind most of the time in combat. Mii Swordfighter is better named Mii Shooter, just to distinguish between Mii Gunner. Or perhaps Mii Not Sure What I Am. If a character relies mainly on a sword, that character is a swordie.
UMMM link is a BASKETBALL player, not a football player, just watch him dribble into a slam dunk: https://twitter.com/MrDanishButterC/status/1080966603582332928
 

Rhus

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#36
OK Y'all can skewer me for this but PT literally requires the least amount of skill to play than any other fighter. Squirtle's grab combos and Ivysaur's broken hitboxes make them super easy to rack up damage with and get easy KO's.
...What?

PT requires you to play three characters, first of all, so he's automatically above highly simplified and easy characters like Mario, Kirby, Cloud, and Lucina.

Second, none of PT's pokemon are inherently simple, with Zard probably being the easiest overall. Squirtle has a high speed optimization reqirement, is easily shield grabbed and has puny hitboxes with a super gimpable recovery but he has a lot of unique properties and nuances to his kit that make him more difficult. He's not Duck Hunt level of difficulty, but he's definitely not easy.

Asserting PT is the easiest in the game when Kirby and Mario exist is questionable at best.
 

TheDuke54

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#37
I would say all the Fire Emblem fighters except Robin and all the Links would apply for swordies/swordy? I see that the OP just listed all the FE fighters, but the Links pretty much use their sword as their main weapon to land successful kills. Yes they use projectiles, but those can't land any decisive kills until someone is at 300%. Least I never tried to rake up enough damage so my experience is just from SD.
 

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#38
Not gonna lie, I can't take anyone seriously when they use smh.

But on the actual topic, the real frustrating thing for swordies in my opinion is that if your attack hits their attack, their attack always wins. It doesn't matter what you used, your body, a vine, magic, electricity, an explosion, if it ain't a weapon you lose. Thank Sakuari that projectiles are a thing.
Coming from someone who says "not gonna lie" . the hell would you need to lie for , whose after you.
 

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#39
I hate how it’s so many sword characters with identical movesets. You got like 4 fire emblem characters with the same move set, 3 links with the same move set as well. The only unique one was robin and shulk. Corrin doesn’t belong in smash imo we could had gotten a cartooney character instead of another spiky hair anime weeb. And plus fighting sword characters is just annoying especially on battlefield stages just spam nair and up air on platforms. Robin is an except for that playstyle
Marth and Roy literally only share half of their moves.

That and literally none of the current Fire Emblem characters have spiky hair lol.
 

TheDuke54

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#40
I do agree that there are too many FE sword users now. I'd like to see them try to branch out with a lance user or even a heavy hitter ax fighter like maybe Hector from the first FE that came overseas to the US. That way the game that started it all for us gets someone in the roster.

I agree with the ones that said it, but I never noticed Pit or Dark Pit as sword fighters even though they use twin blade kind of weapons primarily for their moveset.
 
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