SWF Hall of Fame - Melee Addition

Slhoka

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#3
I've never been a huge fan of this kind of thing, as it creates a undeserved gap between players who are in it and players who are not.
Could we see the criteria that made you chose this list ? And overall, how it was created.
 

AlphaZealot

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#5
here is how it was handled:

Time Table
  • Discussion phase from now until December 14th, 2012
  • Voting phase from December 15th-December 30th, 2011
  • Results released January 15th, 2012

How Voting Will Work
Each person will have a ballot, which cannot be submitted until the 15th of December, the ballot will look as follows - all positions must be filled

Players
  1. Player 1
  2. Player 2
  3. Player 3
  4. Player 4
  5. Player 5
  6. Player 6
  7. Player 7
Tournament Directors
  1. Tournament Director 1
  2. Tournament Director 2
  3. Tournament Director 3
  4. Tournament Director 4
Community Contributors
  1. Community Contributor 1
  2. Community Contributor 2
  3. Community Contributor 3
  4. Community Contributor 4


Therefor, each ballot will have seven (7) names for Players, four (4) names for Tournament Directors, and four (4) names for Community Contributors.

Determining the Hall of Fame: How Votes Will be Tallied
Ballots will be tabulated in reverse order, so a person ranked in position one (1) on a ballot will receive seven (7) points, and a person ranked in position seven (7) will receive one (1) point.

The top five (5) most votes (points) received for Players, top three (3) for Tournament Directors, and top three (3) for Community Contributors will be inducted as our first hall of fame.

Who is Eligible?
Anyone for anything done in any year after Brawl's release in 2008 is eligible, even if they are still active in the scene. This is for Brawl only. A person may be on more than one list, as well. This vote includes anyone from any country, as well.

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as it creates a undeserved gap between players who are in it and players who are not.
People will be added to it each year, if you 'deserve' to be in, you will get in (eventually). I've already received feedback from some who made it into the HoF that it was nice to finally get recognition for much of the hard work they do. It also seems to be fairly well received by the 'public'.

Also, debate/discussion on who makes it each year is to be expected - that is actually a healthy thing in my view.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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#9
recognition*

yeah seems like a lot of penis fencing to me too
recognition for what? the people that are already well known? And the people who don't make the list will be offended. So we have a player list of armada, pp, mango, m2k ... then say axe, zhu, jman or something. All this does is tell Taj he isn't good enough. Hax too. Oh yeah, hungrybox, kirbykaze, kage, unknown, lovage, etc, etc. There are way too many players that deserve recognition in something like this than an arbitrary number like "7".

And the same thing applies to the other categories. This community is formed by the input of hundreds and hundreds of players, not to mention the hard work of every TO. To not mention any TO would be a great insult to the hard work they put in to make the tournaments we attend and love possible.
 

AlphaZealot

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#10
I'm not sure you understand: there are new entrees into any hall of fame each year.

But if you think the Brawl players are mature enough to handle this and not the melee players, I guess that's something.

If you are worried about people QQing for not making a list one year then that is a pretty stupid reason to be against something. All the players you mention would make the list within the first couple years I'm sure.

These "issues" would exist with any HoF or really any award for recognition that exists anywhere-so I wonder why any organization does it?

Per your last point sveet: is the medal of honor an insult to all the soldiers who fight but dont receive it? Is the super bowl MVP an insult to the entire rest of the team? Hell, is employee of the month an insult to all the other employees? Really, I think my point is made here: the existence of an award does not insult those who do not receive it. And if someone is ignorant enough to take that from the existence of an award then they need to grow up a bit, I think.

:phone:
 

Strong Badam

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#12
I agree, MLG sucks.

More on-topic: I am in favor of the idea, but if there isn't anyone else in the MBR that's all that into it, then it's probably not gonna happen.
 

AlphaZealot

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#14
If the entire MBR is now the majority opinion of 5 people posting in this thread, alright. The cards are out, ya'll can go with it if you want, people have posted in the Brawl one that they would like to see this for Melee, but if the MBR isn't willing to produce something for the community because they are scared someones feelings will be hurt, so be it.

Also this:
 

Fortress | Sveet

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#15
MLG hasn't done anything for Melee since that picture was taken, in 2006. They are constantly taking resources away from smashboards. I'm surprised they haven't sold smashboards to nealdt yet.

On topic: Do you tell your children who your favorite is?
 

Strong Badam

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#16
that picture proves that at one point MLG didn't suck

it sucks right now though for sure

and i'm not sure which is worse, always sucking or being great then sucking.

On-Topic: you'll be hard pressed to get most of the MBR to post in this topic. we have a hard enough time getting people to contribute to a tier list, let alone a pat on the back project for certain dudes.
 

AlphaZealot

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#17
Actually, MLG sponsored 4 tournaments in 2007, distributing (possibly undisclosed so I won't say) X money to each of them: Farmingdale, Pound 2, FCD, and SCC.

In 2010 they sponsored Brawl so that was ~$70,000 in prizes, but I know your comment is mainly about Melee.

MLG has been paying the server costs for Smashboards for 2+ years now, a cost might I add that Gideon felt was unsustainable - e.g. Smashboards would not even be operating without MLG.

On-Topic: you'll be hard pressed to get most of the MBR to post in this topic. we have a hard enough time getting people to contribute to a tier list, let alone a pat on the back project for certain dudes.
This inactivity is troubling. I am as much to blame here as anyone though, I know.
 

Pink Reaper

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#18
MLG being semi-relevant to the Melee community 5 years ago doesnt really equate to anything meaningful now. They've bought SWF, restructured it so that it's no longer a community run website to the same degree it was before then basically just fell right the **** off when they dropped brawl and the site was no longer necessary to them. To that end I do applaud them for footing the bill for a website they no longer have interest in but it doesnt make them relevant.

MLG has been on the downturn in recent years as it tries to jump on the most popular games that dont have sustainability. Halo and Gears became CoD became Starcraft which was probably their worst idea ever since you cant make your Starcraft tournament relevant in the face of the behemoth sport that it is in Korea.

Moreso MLG has looked down on the melee community since purchasing this site, I had a direct conversation with JV and Clap where they both said that we should give up on melee, that the community wont be there, that it's an unsustainable game so they have no reason to support it, and yet here we are 5 years since being dropped, a little under 2 years since that conversation and Melee is still going strong. My disdain for MLG comes both as someone who loves melee but also as someone who was involved in OTHER MLG games. I'd gone to 3 of them as an MLG Halo team and I've actually been to a few since then as well just because I wanted to go. I havent been in the last year or so but my rather large pool of MLG going friends(roughly 4 and a half Halo teams worth, though they arent all halo players, just an easy headcount number) have all begun recently complaining about how MLG is turning out. I never even mentioned SWF or the MLG buyout, they came to the conclusion on their own.

We get it AZ. You work for MLG. You love MLG. They pay you. But you are not surrounded by people who share your sentiments.

You also love brawl. You play Brawl. Apparently you even TO Brawl. Never knew that before your hall of fame placement but there it is apparently. But the Brawl community =/= the Melee community. We dont do things the same way you do. Our game is pushing 11 years of age. Our competitive seen is over twice as old as yours. Our community doesnt care about superfluous things like a Hall of Fame, and if we released one in place of a more legitimate project like a revised stageset/ruleset or match-up chart then it would only draw ire. Inactivity in the MBR is a real thing and if we're going to pool our resources for something im reasonably certain the community would prefer it to be more meaningful than this.
 

Dr Peepee

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#19
I'm kind of torn on this.

On one hand, it is really nice for players to get recognized and their hard work noticed. Giving SWF a direct way to reward hard-working members instead of just telling people to see who's good on Youtube is kind of convenient as well. Having a long legacy might even be pretty cool to see who all made it and what their description was like at their time of entry over time.


On the other hand, yeah some people could get upset about making it or not making it. Maybe it's unnecessary because we're a smaller community or because there's no advantage besides already-known fame for each of these people getting inducted. I think everyone already covered why they don't like this much already haha.


What I will say is that if this does go through, then I'm perfectly content not being on it first go round, or ever. I like what this can potentially do for the community(such as motivate them to get to the HoF), not what benefit comes for myself.



Edit: a lot of what pink reaper says is true. I did not mean to say I am for or against the project, but if it could be worked out in such a way that most people are happy with the timing of it coming out and the methodology behind it, then that'd be nice.
 

AlphaZealot

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#20
What Starcraft has done for MLG. Regardless, when MLG drops a game people get salty about it, and it is understandable, but I don't see it as anymore than an evolution of the whole 'eSports' idea. .

Our game is pushing 11 years of age. Our competitive seen is over twice as old as yours. Our community doesnt care about superfluous things like a Hall of Fame
How do you know people wouldn't be receptive of it? How do you know the "hundreds and hundreds of players" as Sveet puts it, wouldn't find it interesting or enjoy reading about past (or current) "greats"?Further: if the game continues to live on for many years to come, a HoF is a great way to pass on history from one generation of players to the next. Part of what would make a Melee HoF awesome is that is has so much more history to draw from than Brawl.

I've seen a lot of names already mentioned in this thread, all great players, yet I haven't seen the likes of the Kishes/Deezie/Ken/Isai/PC Chris/Recipherous/Sastopher/Azen/Wes/Crystal City/or maybe even the likes of Snex (who could forget good ol' Snex?). If any of these names are unfamiliar to you, and there are even more out there who have come and gone over the years who have done great things, then you should be sad a piece of Melee history has already been lost. If they are all familiar to you, ask yourself: would they be familiar to the "hundreds and hundreds" of current Melee players? Most of whom were not, in fact, around in 2002/2003/2004/etc? A Hall of Fame is a catalogue that lets you take a look into the past - how many of these names are already forgotten by the current generation of players? Would people really be appalled, put off, jealous, or draw "ire" at something that acknowledges the work and accomplishments of the many who have come before (and some who still continue to this day)?

This will be my last point, hopefully someone in the MBR will read this and realize they can help create something that could continue for years and be a valuable resource and history for a community that has already been around 11 years. This could be the very project that gets a lot of the ol' timers excited, but who knows, some of you want to shut it down because your scared of feelings being hurt.
 

Slhoka

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#21
First of all, I don't care about MLG. It isn't relevant to this debate, at least from my point of view.

Now, regarding the HoF : the reason why I don't like it isn't because people would get butthurt. I couldn't care less, and actually, if someone was to complain about not being included, chances are that it would make me laugh.

No, the real reason is that I'm not a big supporter of this idea is that I like to praise people when they deserve it, not years after. I also don't like the idea to pick a few chosen ones while some other people need as much recognition. But like you said, it's like that in any awards ceremony. That's true, and that's why I'm not a big fan of this kind of thing.

As for the HoF being a testimony of the scene's history, I have to admit it's true. But in my opinion, it does a very poor job describing the past scene. If I were to tell the story of competitive Melee, it would be through quite a few (very) long articles, backed up with a ton of statistics and facts. True, it might not look as sexy as a HoF with 15 names and 5 lignes about each of them, but at least, it would be way more

But don't get me wrong : I'm not a strong opposant of this project. If other people want to do it... that's fine by me, and I'll contribute. But I don't think it's the right thing to do.

Also, if we were to do a Melee HoF... you would need more that 15 addition per year, or do this more than once a year. This isn't Brawl, the competitive scene as been here for a decade. You already mentioned 11 players/TOs from years ago. At this rate, we could only mention a selected few while forgetting many persons who contributed a lot to the community.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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#22
Juggleguy's Melee yearly overviews are a much better way to pass the knowledge from generation to generation.


edit- the only way I would be in favor of this project is if it included everyone that deserved it, which would probably be more than 50 people right off the bat.
 

Umbreon

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#23
the emotional language isn't working. don't try to sell us on an idea and sound condescending at the same time, it's obviously not working out for you.
 

Marc

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#24
In 2007 Scav actually ran a Hall of Fame project for the MBR (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=119514 and http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=122084, only people with BBR access can see it though). The process was down to voting 6 from these 12 people:

Azen
Chu Dat
Eddie
Gideon
Isai
Ken
Kishprime
M3D
Mew2King
Mattdeezie
PC Chris
Wes

The votes were never tallied, but it was pretty much done. I'm not really understanding the current lack of enthusiasm considering how many people voted back then and liked it, though not many of those members remain. The primary reason it wasn't finalized is because Scav kind of disappeared on it, though there were also some complaints about the lack of differentiation between players/TOs and the way voting worked (not worth going into now). There was also talk of doing a non-US Hall of Fame, considering everything was measured by North American performance and no non-American had a real shot. I'd imagine Armada has one now, but ****'s not real if MrSilver's not in it. :p

Most arguments against doing it are not that strong IMO, especially people feeling butthurt because they don't make the cut (initially). There are no real alternatives in terms of providing a quick who's who, most "history" articles are quite long and mostly interesting for whatever region it applies to. As per Slhoka's argument that it's rather late... that's true, which is why it was already supposed to happen 5 years ago. :p It would take several iterations to catch up with all the notable people over the past decade, but on the other hand it's not like too many new faces pop up that warrant inclusion.

The one real issue I'm seeing is that the MBR is pretty much dead. You can't have vote-based projects with like 10 active members, though running it/doing writeups doesn't take more than a few dedicated people. The Senate was planning to do something about the MBR's current state, but the people who were spearheading things ended up too busy to do any staffing, let alone revive the MBR. I still want to do something about this, because I still lovelovelove Melee, but I guess I'll need to talk to some people first.
 

Divinokage

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#25
I'm down to do this, I like the idea to make players have an eternal position for history. It's definitely my style, I don't really care if I make it or not, it's something fun to do. Anyways, from what I've noticed the new generation is becoming more and more bitter or something along those lines so they won't be willing to try things just because of random reasons they give themselves. So with that said, screw that, let's try it!
 

HyugaRicdeau

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#28
I think this is a fine idea, Smash is old enough now that it's worth trying to preserve our history for new people to find out about.

Yes some people will be butthurt but they can suck it up. I don't think this will create big divisions in the community if we make it exclusive enough, because it will convey how meaningful the list is supposed to be. I mean if we put in anyone that has won a regional tournament, then yeah you'll get a lot of people *****ing, but something like maybe 10 for the first year and ~5 people per year after I think will work.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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#30
First off, as an MBR Member I apologize for my inactivity, and am going to make a commitment to be much more vocal in the back room.

As far as this idea goes, I'm certainly behind it. I think one of the major flaws of the Melee Community is its reluctancy to accept any type of organizational structure whatsoever. It's evident in many areas, from failed Power Rankings, tournament circuits, sponsorships, elo ratings, data bases, and even many responses already in this thread - calling Sveet out as the perfect example. This game is 11 years old and yet the community is often a bunch of babies about things.

The thing about Melee is the game is just so good is has the sustainability to last. This is no longer debatable. This game will be played for a very long time. If we all adopt the passive East Coast attitude of whatever, it's going to remain small scale forever. However there is potential here, and organization is the only way to move forward with larger success.

If you know me well, you know my passion for professional football and my 49ers. I am a DIE HARD fan and always will be. Melee can learn a lot from Football, and a hall of fame is a start.

To form a counter arguement for those stating the community would never accept such a project: HugS had proposed this idea on smashboards back in 2007, which I revived in 2011. My post in on page 6, and there are many positive posts after mine, including some from pro players like Hungrybox.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=103140&highlight=hall+of+fame

And while I wasn't able to dig up too much information on the origin, the smash wiki site references a pretty credible looking list supposedly established in 2008 on a Hall of Fame for Melee.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Smash_Hall_of_Fame

So with that said, I wholeheartedly believe a project like this would succeed and have positive merit on the game, its players, and its community. So why not do it?
 

AlphaZealot

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#31
Zivilyn: that list is...half-Smashboards half-Wifiwars. The original Melee HoF project that Marc has already mentioned started in 2007 and was run by Scav in the MBR over a number of months. Toward the end of 2007, Scav and M3D started working on a website called Wifiwars anticipating Brawls launch.

So in late 2007/early 2008, the MBR is working out the HoF and voting and they get it down to the list Marc mentions. More voting occurs, but these are never tallied in the MBR. Instead, either Scav or M3D tallies the votes and then releases the results as a Wifiwars post - basically hyjacking the project and never having a Smashboards release (or even MBR release) of the results of a project that the MBR worked/voted on.

So, in some ways that is the first HoF, in others it is not, since it became a WifiWars HoF and not a Smashboards HoF. It would be the current MBRs choice probably on how to interpret that first attempt.
 

SleepyK

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#32
if it included everyone that deserved it, which would probably be more than 50 people right off the bat.
this is how i feel about it

I think it's a really neat idea and would do really well to preserve ssbm's history as well as educate newer players about it. I spent a lot of time lurking on SWF and DC++ learning about ssbm's past before I became an active poster in both. I can't begin to recall how many times I've mentioned a story or a match from 2003-2007 that captivated the newer players and gave them insight.

The melee hall of fame would have to be fairly large off the bat because too many people over 11 years deserve credit and praise.

if we can do that then i'm for it.

a Hall of Fame doesn't have to be small or gradually increase by one entrant!
we could totally add WHOEVER WE FELT LIKE WHENEVER WE FELT LIKE TGE RULEWEZEZ ARE OURRZ


o ya also mlg sucks for ssbm p hard after 2007 and that conversation between m3d and clap makes me very sad.


there are still cool people at mlg though. at mlg raleigh? last year, mlg's 50th event, they held a throwback event where they put up all their old games, ssbm included. JV played on a setup and picked yoshi. he did surprisingly well (I was impressed!). You could see the spark in his eyes as he hit buttons his hands never forgot. He genuinely laughed and had a great time playing a game I knew he still loved.

tl;dr JV is an awesome guy.


mlg still sucks for ssbm...

but I understand why we'll never have mlg support and I'm not upset about it.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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#33
I couldn't see having a credible Hall of fame starting with 50 people. The thing about the Hall of Fame is it supposed to be by far the best of the best. There are NFL players that hold many records and dominated for a decade or more that have yet to make it in to the Hall of Fame. It's NOT just supposed to be all the best players. It's supposed to be the players that have had such an impact on the game that they will always be talked about.

I could see MAYBE a pool of 20 players initially, and then 5 inductees per year. But of course, it's all up for debate.
 

SleepyK

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#34
it all depends on what we want the focus of the Hall of Fame to be.
I feel if it's meant to be a combination of recognition and history preservation, then it'd be alright to have lots of folks in it.

we got lots of folks.
 

Skler

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#35
I vote SleepyK for the Melee hall of fame for having the BEST HUGS.

A hall of fame seems weird when we don't even have an official history or time line.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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#36
I vote SleepyK for the Melee hall of fame for having the BEST HUGS.

A hall of fame seems weird when we don't even have an official history or time line.
This is an interesting idea. Definitely something that could be put together to precede the announcement of an official HoF. Wouldn't be too difficult. Just fact checking and information gathering.
 

Skler

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#37
This is an interesting idea. Definitely something that could be put together to precede the announcement of an official HoF. Wouldn't be too difficult. Just fact checking and information gathering.
I'd be super psyched if competitive melee got a small history/time line going for it. It'd really add some perspective for folks who are just coming on or have been around forever.

A hall of fame is just circle jerking. Edit: WHICH IS SOMETHING I LIKE DOING.
 
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