• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
:4mewtwo: is already #11, so I don't think he'll rise more than a few spots.
:4marth: will likely rise a lot, yes. #27 is way too low for him.
:4lucas: I'm not convinced he will rise all that much. The characters above him are pretty good, which makes it hard for him to advance much.
:4palutena: should rise for sure. I voted for her to be higher before as well.
:4megaman: obviously. I'd be very surprise if he didn't end up top 15.

I agree with everyone in the "small rise" category, although I think Little Mac's rise should be a bit more than just "small". His results have been really solid. He seems to be likely a top 30-35 character now.

I think :4yoshi:'s current placement is pretty accurate. Perhaps he'll drop a few slots, but he's still a pretty good character.
I don't think :4cloud: should drop at all. His MU spread is really good and his overall results are 3rd best in the game. He struggles somewhat at the absolute top level (read: He lacks a top 10 player) but I don't think it's the character as much as a lack of dedicated players. There are some really good Cloud players out there, but none as consistent as players like Void, Ally, ANTi, Nairo, Larry Lurr, Dabuz, Mr. R, or ZeRo. Majors and supermajors aren't the only tournaments that matter, anyway.

I think :4tlink: should rise a bit, not drop. His results indicate that he's potentially a top 15 character.
Yes, Clouds MU spread is good, but the majority of his matchups are even. I only can only thing of a few notable matchups in his favor. Also, if a character can not perform well at a super major or major, and they are top 3, that is just terrible imho. Top 3 means you should have good placings at the highest of levels. Now, if tier lists focused more on the not so highest, then Cloud would for sure be top 3, but that is just not the case. Also note, those results are important, however he has not had a really great top 3 results in a bit. Again, goes back to my post above. I do not remember how well Tweek did with Cloud, I think he lost to Marss?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Yes, Clouds MU spread is good, but the majority of his matchups are even. I only can only thing of a few notable matchups in his favor. Also, if a character can not perform well at a super major or major, and they are top 3, that is just terrible imho. Top 3 means you should have good placings at the highest of levels. Now, if tier lists focused more on the not so highest, then Cloud would for sure be top 3, but that is just not the case. Also note, those results are important, however he has not had a really great top 3 results in a bit. Again, goes back to my post above. I do not remember how well Tweek did with Cloud, I think he lost to Marss?
Tweek got 13th place.
 

DMWN

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
138
Location
Onett, the wildflower of Eagleland.
NNID
poe376
On the subject of Lucas...

This character is so good, man. Not so much better than those above him, but definitely a little bit higher. I guess it's worth mentioning that my doubles partner @Strawbaby absolutely ate Coney in friendlies, who went Cloud and Mario, but aside from that he has down tilt, forward air, zair, PK Fire, and Nair (people who complain about SDI like it's a huge detriment to the move has no clue what they're talking about) at his disposal. Why isn't he getting results? Why, he has been.
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
On the subject of Lucas...

This character is so good, man. Not so much better than those above him, but definitely a little bit higher. I guess it's worth mentioning that my doubles partner @Strawbaby absolutely ate Coney in friendlies, who went Cloud and Mario, but aside from that he has down tilt, forward air, zair, PK Fire, and Nair (people who complain about SDI like it's a huge detriment to the move has no clue what they're talking about) at his disposal. Why isn't he getting results? Why, he has been.
So Good imo would be among the likes of Rosalina, Diddy, etc. He is good tho, clearly one of the more under rated characters
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
Browny Browny Pretty sure we should just start this now if we're unaware of when the next "official" tier list will come out. We shouldn't wait too long for something we don't know when will happen.
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
DO IT FOR HARAMBE :4dk:
Nooo, don't associate the leader of the bunch with that, it makes me sad... :(

But seriously, I think people have opinions they want to share, so I think it would be a good time to start. You never know, we might be able to influence some placements on the next official tier list by showcasing what is the common opinion right now (extremely unlikely, but you never know).
 
Last edited:

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
Also, when we start again, can you put the current version of the list in your post whenever you update? It would be helpful for convenience and documentation.
 

Mega-Spider

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
955
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
MegaSonic3
3DS FC
4124-5940-2103
On the subject of Lucas...

This character is so good, man. Not so much better than those above him, but definitely a little bit higher. I guess it's worth mentioning that my doubles partner @Strawbaby absolutely ate Coney in friendlies, who went Cloud and Mario, but aside from that he has down tilt, forward air, zair, PK Fire, and Nair (people who complain about SDI like it's a huge detriment to the move has no clue what they're talking about) at his disposal. Why isn't he getting results? Why, he has been.
Taiheita placed 17th at Smash Con this year and made first in doubles. My sparring partner's a Lucas player, and he loves to utilize Lucas' Z-Air, which is one of the best in the game in my opinion. His tether might as well be the best because it is so lagless compared to the other tether characters. I always found Lucas underrated, even if I don't think he'll be high tier. A solid high mid tier character at the most, but knowing how things like to change in this game a lot, Lucas will go up or down depending on what happens.
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
Something that appears to have gone under the radar, are the results of the doubles tournament at Super Smash Con 2016. It also has a few notable placements, so I'll post the top 8 here:

1st: Gomamugitya (:4lucario:) and Taiheita (:4lucas:)
2nd: ZeRo (:4diddy:) and Nairo (:4cloud:)
3rd: Ryuga (:4corrin:) and Rayquaza (:rosalina:)
4th: Ally (:4mario:) and ANTi (:4mario:,:4cloud2:)
5th: Mr E (:4marth:) and DKWill (:4dk:)
5th: Vinnie (:4cloud:) and Abadango (:4metaknight:,:4megaman:)
7th: Trela (:4ryu:) and Mr R (:4sheik:)
7th: Rango (:4myfriends:) and 6WX (:4sonic:)



Not only are :4marth:, :4lucario: and :4lucas: making waves in singles recently, but they are also apparently quite viable picks in doubles too. :4dk: placing quite high in doubles is also nice to see.
 
Last edited:

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,239
Location
Sweden
I would be more worried about a new patch than a new 4BR tier list. I'd hope most people voting would have opinions backed by enough data and solid theory to not be influenced too much by a new 4BR tier list. A new patch, however, could certainly change things up. At this point in time, it's hard to tell whether we'll get a new patch or not. It's been three months already... Anyway, I'm in the "Let's start soon" camp. If a new patch would get dropped in 2 weeks we could always reset it and start a month or two later.
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
I would be more worried about a new patch than a new 4BR tier list. I'd hope most people voting would have opinions backed by enough data and solid theory to not be influenced too much by a new 4BR tier list. A new patch, however, could certainly change things up. At this point in time, it's hard to tell whether we'll get a new patch or not. It's been three months already... Anyway, I'm in the "Let's start soon" camp. If a new patch would get dropped in 2 weeks we could always reset it and start a month or two later.
As much as I would like a new patch, I highly doubt we are getting another one. It's been almost exactly 3 months since Bayonetta's nerfs. They usually do balance patches every two months, too.
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
As much as I would like a new patch, I highly doubt we are getting another one. It's been almost exactly 3 months since Bayonetta's nerfs. They usually do balance patches every two months, too.
I'm pretty sure he's just saying that a patch would mess up the voting round more than an "official" tier list, not necessarily that he's expecting a patch. And I agree with him on that.
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
I also think we should start soon. If the official tier list comes out, so what? We don't know if it will be bad like the last one.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
Look honestly I don't want to restart this too soon because I've heard more than enough to suggest a tier list will come out shortly.

If anyone else wants to take of this thread and a moderator can give them access to the second post or something then I don't mind handing it over. I just don't have enough interest in this game right now to restart it so soon.

It takes about 45 minutes to tally up votes one every 3-5 days if people are up to it. I'll figure out who I think can take over it if they want.
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
And then Umebura SAT happened, and we have solo mains of :4sonic: (KEN) get 1st, :4lucas: (Taiheita) get 5th, and :4link: (T) get 9th, among others. Just throwing some more results out there to help people judge their placements wisely.
 

Green Zelda

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
313
Location
Nohr
Speaking of :4ness:, where is he now? His results have fallen off, and characters he was once considered better than have sorta passed him (like :4marth::4megaman:)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'd take up the thread but it seems like a lot of work, but if I'm offered the opportunity then I'll do my best to manage everything. I just wanna see this place get going lol
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Also apologies for the double post, but can't just a new thread be made? It's been done with the Character Competitive Impressions thread a few times.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Time to make a post showing how characters shifted on the new 4BR tier list compared to the first.

:4bayonetta: (N/A)
:4bowser: -2 (#30 → #32)
:4bowserjr: -13 (#34 → #47)
:4falcon: -6 (#14 → #20).
:4charizard: -2 (#49 → #51)
:4cloud:+10 (#12 → #2).
:4corrin: (N/A)
:4dedede: -6 (#46 → #52)
:4darkpit: -10 (#17 → #27)
:4diddy:+8 (#9 → #1)
:4dk: +2 (#27 → #25)
:4drmario: -3 (#45 → #48)
:4duckhunt: +1 (#43 → #42)
:4falco: -11 (#38 → #49)
:4fox: 0 (#7 → #7)
:4ganondorf: -2 (#54 → #56)
:4greninja:+4 (#25 → #21)
:4myfriends:-9 (#26 → #35)
:4jigglypuff:-3 (#55 → #58)
:4kirby: -8 (#33 → #41)
:4littlemac:+5 (#44 → #39)
:4link: -1 (#42 → #43)
:4lucario:+1 (#23 → #22)
:4lucas:+1 (#36 → #35)
:4lucina:+11 (#47 → #36)
:4luigi:-13 (#16 → #29)
:4mario:+3 (#8 → #5)
:4marth:+22 (#41 → #19) !!!!
:4megaman:+13 (#28 → #15)
:4metaknight: -3 (#10 → #13)
:4mewtwo:+27 (#37 → #10) !!!!!!!!
:4gaw:
-2 (#35 → #37)
:4ness: -3 (#13 → #16)
:4olimar: -6 (#24 → #30)
:4pacman: -9 (#29 → #38)
:4palutena: +10 (#50 →#40)
:4peach: -7 (#19 →#26)
:4pikachu: -7 (#5 → #12)
:4pit: -6 (#18 → #24)
:4rob: -8 (#20 → #28)
:4robinm: 0 (#31 → #31)
:rosalina: -1 (#3 → #4)
:4feroy: -18 (#32 → #50)
:4ryu:-5 (#4 → #9)
:4samus: +6 (#51 → #45)
:4sheik: -2 (#1 → #3)
:4shulk: -4 (#40 →#44)
:4sonic: 0 (#6 →#6)
:4tlink: +5 (#22 →#17)
:4villager: -3 (#11 → #14)
:4wario: -13 (#21 → #34)
:4wiifit: -7 (#39 → #46)
:4yoshi: -8 (#15 → #23)
:4zelda: 0 (#55 →#55)
:4zss: -6 (#2 →#8)

Oh and Miis I guess.

:4miibrawl: -6 (#48 → #54)
:4miisword: 0 (#57 → #57)
:4miigun: -1 (#52 → #53)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Laken64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
381
Location
Virginia
3DS FC
0920-0523-8094
Time to make a post showing how characters shifted on the new 4BR tier list compared to the first.

:4bayonetta: (N/A)
:4bowser: -2 (#30 → #32)
:4bowserjr: -13 (#34 → #47)
:4falcon: -6 (#14 → #20).
:4charizard: -2 (#49 → #51)
:4cloud:+10 (#12 → #2).
:4corrin: (N/A)
:4dedede: -6 (#46 → #52)
:4darkpit: -10 (#17 → #27)
:4diddy:+8 (#9 → #1)
:4dk: +2 (#27 → #25)
:4drmario: -3 (#45 → #48)
:4duckhunt: +1 (#43 → #42)
:4falco: -11 (#38 → #49)
:4fox: 0 (#7 → #7)
:4ganondorf: -2 (#54 → #56)
:4greninja:+4 (#25 → #21)
:4myfriends:-9 (#26 → #35)
:4jigglypuff:-3 (#55 → #58)
:4kirby: -8 (#33 → #41)
:4littlemac:+5 (#44 → #39)
:4link: -1 (#42 → #43)
:4lucario:+1 (#23 → #22)
:4lucas:+1 (#36 → #35)
:4lucina:+11 (#47 → #36)
:4luigi:-13 (#16 → #29)
:4mario:+3 (#8 → #5)
:4marth:+22 (#41 → #19) !!!!
:4megaman:+13 (#28 → #15)
:4metaknight: -3 (#10 → #13)
:4mewtwo:+27 (#37 → #10) !!!!!!!!
:4gaw:
-2 (#35 → #37)
:4ness: -3 (#13 → #16)
:4olimar: -6 (#24 → #30)
:4pacman: -9 (#29 → #38)
:4palutena: +10 (#50 →#40)
:4peach: -7 (#19 →#26)
:4pikachu: -7 (#5 → #12)
:4pit: -6 (#18 → #24)
:4rob: -8 (#20 → #28)
:4robinm: 0 (#31 → #31)
:rosalina: -1 (#3 → #4)
:4feroy: -18 (#32 → #50)
:4ryu:-5 (#4 → #9)
:4samus: +6 (#51 → #45)
:4sheik: -2 (#1 → #3)
:4shulk: -4 (#40 →#44)
:4sonic: 0 (#6 →#6)
:4tlink: +5 (#22 →#17)
:4villager: -3 (#11 → #14)
:4wario: -13 (#21 → #34)
:4wiifit: -7 (#39 → #46)
:4yoshi: -8 (#15 → #23)
:4zelda: 0 (#55 →#55)
:4zss: -6 (#2 →#8)

Oh and Miis I guess.

:4miibrawl: -6 (#48 → #54)
:4miisword: 0 (#57 → #57)
:4miigun: -1 (#52 → #53)
Very informational post although I disagree with some of the placings they made, the most likable/noteworthy thing about this this list is the rise of the Marth and Mewtwo. They both show radically patchs/buffs can shift the meta and people's thoughts, Marth's happening slowly throughout the course of the game and Mewtwo just getting a huge buff on the spot of 1.1.3.
 

Coney

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2008
Messages
4,160
Location
Rapture Farms
I guess it's worth mentioning that my doubles partner @Strawbaby absolutely ate Coney in friendlies, who went Cloud and Mario
sorry for responding late but someone pointed me to this

i only remember it because he was pretty good! he won 3 games, then i won literally every game thereafter, probably 15 more, with 4 different pocket characters. lucas is pretty limited and easily exploited

not that it matters, because it's friendlies, and not at all indicative of a character's ability at the highest level of competition

just bringing it up because i know you didn't mean anything bad by it, but taking random friendly games seriously is a quick way to get a reputation for being "that guy," and many players will quickly avoid wanting to play with you, just a heads up
 
Last edited:

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
To take some of anticipation/suspence away while we wait for the list to reboot, why don't we all talk about a character we would like to see rise? Pick only one character and explain why you want to see them rise, and if you think it's likely.

As of late, :4peach:has become a very interesting character to me. Peach has access to a lot of unique options, such as her float, which allows her to perform almost instant aerials close to the ground. Her aerials are surprisingly damaging and/or powerful (her Nair is frame 5 and deals 13%, which is extremely good, for example). She's able to cancel all upwards momentum with her float, and essentially perform extra low short hops. Tie this in with her Nair, and this grants Peach a unique, and quite overwhelming approach option, being able to perform it in quick succession.

This ability also gives her access to unique combos. Some of her combos just make me excited every time I see them, such as floating Dair > double jump > Fair.

In short, right now, I am very interested in Peach, and I would love to see her rise. Is it likely? Not right now, as she doesn't have huge amounts of reasons to, which is mainly due to her incredibly high learning curve curbing her representation. Is there the possibility for her to rise in the future though? Yes. I feel 100% positive that Peach has plenty of potential to rise. While certain characters metagames are becoming quite established, optimised, and showing little area for improvement, such as ZSS (which isn't a bad thing, I'll just point out, not if what the character already has is fantastic), Peach is still relatively undeveloped, and there's plenty of room for optimisation and improvement in the future.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
To take some of anticipation/suspence away while we wait for the list to reboot, why don't we all talk about a character we would like to see rise? Pick only one character and explain why you want to see them rise, and if you think it's likely.

As of late, :4peach:has become a very interesting character to me. Peach has access to a lot of unique options, such as her float, which allows her to perform almost instant aerials close to the ground. Her aerials are surprisingly damaging and/or powerful (her Nair is frame 5 and deals 13%, which is extremely good, for example). She's able to cancel all upwards momentum with her float, and essentially perform extra low short hops. Tie this in with her Nair, and this grants Peach a unique, and quite overwhelming approach option, being able to perform it in quick succession.

This ability also gives her access to unique combos. Some of her combos just make me excited every time I see them, such as floating Dair > double jump > Fair.

In short, right now, I am very interested in Peach, and I would love to see her rise. Is it likely? Not right now, as she doesn't have huge amounts of reasons to, which is mainly due to her incredibly high learning curve curbing her representation. Is there the possibility for her to rise in the future though? Yes. I feel 100% positive that Peach has plenty of potential to rise. While certain characters metagames are becoming quite established, optimised, and showing little area for improvement, such as ZSS (which isn't a bad thing, I'll just point out, not if what the character already has is fantastic), Peach is still relatively undeveloped, and there's plenty of room for optimisation and improvement in the future.
ehhhhh.

I respectfully disagree. Peach does get a lot of unneeded **** these days but I don't think she's the character with loads of unlocked potential many have made her out to be. Her aerial game, shield pressure and camping are all good, but her being a character that's light and has poor mobility will pretty much hold her back against those most relevant in the meta. If you respect the hell out of Peach's dair/fair and play her turnip game it can be hard for her to find a good opening or seal stocks. Though I can't deny that even if Peach has had a sparse presence this year, some of her mains have been able to get some impressive results (SlayerZ at G3 and FOW Saga, Umeki at BAM8, Samsora at Clutch City Clash).

She does have a pretty good :4fox:matchup that will keep her relevant in some way, but she has a hard time with people who can wall her out or outmobilize her (:4marth::4corrin::4lucario::4mewtwo::4bayonetta::4megaman::4diddy::4cloud:) and then just has random even/unfavorable matchups with mid/low tiers (:4samus::4shulk::4palutena::4robinm:). She's a character who requires exorbitantly high effort for just merely good reward. I can't see her better than mid, maybe upper-mid but I can't see her entering high tier. Maybe this'll change in the long run of the meta, but considering she had to deal with the same **** in Brawl I doubt it.
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
ehhhhh.

I respectfully disagree. Peach does get a lot of unneeded **** these days but I don't think she's the character with loads of unlocked potential many have made her out to be. Her aerial game, shield pressure and camping are all good, but her being a character that's light and has poor mobility will pretty much hold her back against those most relevant in the meta. If you respect the hell out of Peach's dair/fair and play her turnip game it can be hard for her to find a good opening or seal stocks. Though I can't deny that even if Peach has had a sparse presence this year, some of her mains have been able to get some impressive results (SlayerZ at G3 and FOW Saga, Umeki at BAM8, Samsora at Clutch City Clash).

She does have a pretty good :4fox:matchup that will keep her relevant in some way, but she has a hard time with people who can wall her out or outmobilize her (:4marth::4corrin::4lucario::4mewtwo::4bayonetta::4megaman::4diddy::4cloud:) and then just has random even/unfavorable matchups with mid/low tiers (:4samus::4shulk::4palutena::4robinm:). She's a character who requires exorbitantly high effort for just merely good reward. I can't see her better than mid, maybe upper-mid but I can't see her entering high tier. Maybe this'll change in the long run of the meta, but considering she had to deal with the same **** in Brawl I doubt it.
While you respectfully disagree, that's totally fine, but don't try and change my mind. The long and short of it is I would like to see her rise because I find her interesting. I'm not saying she can, or even will rise, but because she's interesting to me, I'd like to see it.

Though, having the 16th best top 16 weighted total, and the 14th best top 8 weighted total in 1.1.6 is a good credit to her name. She's theoretically doing better than characters like :4ness:, :4corrin:, :4luigi:, :4pikachu: etc, so... *shrugs*.

TL;DR: I just think Peach is interesting and would love to see her rise.

Who would you like to see rise, in general?
 
Last edited:

Ze Diglett

Smash Champion
Writing Team
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
2,811
Location
Rivals 2
NNID
ZeDiglett
Who would you like to see rise, in general?
Personally, I'm hoping for:4lucas:to rise up to upper-mid tier (basically, around where R.O.B., Yoshi, and the Pits are on the current list). He's been getting some respectable results recently courtesy of Taiheita, not to mention his grab game, air game, and combos are all just too good, and his zoning/spacing with PK Fire and Zair is no slouch either.
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
I think it's obvious who I'd like to see rise: :4lucas:.

This character is insane. Have you seen Taiheita? In his last two big tournaments, he placed 17th and 5th, only ever losing to ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz, while 2-0'ing tons of players including Marss and Abadango (he even 2-stocked Abadango).

The only problems with Lucas's theory right now are his mediocre neutral and somewhat gimpable recovery, though both of these are still better than Ness's: Lucas's sweetspot F-air, Z-air, and PK Fire are better than Ness's tools in the neutral, and Lucas has greater air speed, a tether recovery, and more distance with an up-B that's much harder for most characters to intercept.

His combo game might even be better than Ness's, with a N-air that acts similar to Ness's F-air but with even more followup potential at higher percents. (Also, people overexaggerate how much you can SDI it, but not one top player he faced was able to consistently SDI out of it, so...) His tether grab is usually harder to land than Ness's normal grab, but there are setups to it, such as N-air, Z-air, and D-tilt, which can even combo into each other into a grab. He also gets more reward from his grab than Ness does: All of his throws except D-throw can kill reliably (and D-throw can Hoo Hah to kill even earlier off the top than U-throw), which makes his kill game off grabs more versatile than Ness's single amazing kill throw.

His D-throw deserves a paragraph of its own. At low percents it can combo into a footstool or a N-air into footstool, which can set up an extensive jab lock combo that works at least once on every character. At low-mid percents, it can combo into a N-air into any other aerial; at mid-high percents it combos into B-air, which can kill early near the edge, or F-air; and at kill percents it can true combo into U-air. It has such low end lag that it can even true combo into U-smash at low percents! (Not that it's practical, but just to demonstrate its insanely low end lag.)

He also kills more consistently than Ness, with the aforementioned Hoo Hah and kill throws, as well as solid setups into sweetspot F-air, B-air, U-tilt, F-tilt, and F-smash. Speaking of F-smash, it's surprisingly powerful for how quick it comes out, often killing at 80% near the ledge without rage. His D-smash can also 2-frame pretty easily and kill quite early, not to mention that he can jab lock with the tip of D-tilt at the kill percent for any of these options. Sure, Ness can kill earlier, but not as reliably as Lucas can.

At this point in the meta game I would agree with Feelicks in that Lucas is better than Ness, at least a lower high tier. FOW has become quite inconsistent with his results, which seem to keep dropping, whereas Taiheita and the several others who play Lucas just seem to do better and better every tournament. I'm excited for the future of Lucas our bucas!
 
Last edited:

Zerp

Formerly "ZeroSoul"
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
4,625
Location
South Carolina
To take some of anticipation/suspence away while we wait for the list to reboot, why don't we all talk about a character we would like to see rise? Pick only one character and explain why you want to see them rise, and if you think it's likely.

It's not likely, but:4jigglypuff:.

...

What..? Why are you looking at me like that? You said a character we'd like to see rise, not one we think would or should .:troll:

Okay, on a more serious note, I'd both like to see and expect :4marth: to rise from last time, for pretty obvious reasons.
Also, I agree with you on Peach.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member

Guest
While you respectfully disagree, that's totally fine, but don't try and change my mind. The long and short of it is I would like to see her rise because I find her interesting. I'm not saying she can, or even will rise, but because she's interesting to me, I'd like to see it.

Though, having the 16th best top 16 weighted total, and the 14th best top 8 weighted total in 1.1.6 is a good credit to her name. She's theoretically doing better than characters like :4ness:, :4corrin:, :4luigi:, :4pikachu: etc, so... *shrugs*.

TL;DR: I just think Peach is interesting and would love to see her rise.

Who would you like to see rise, in general?
That's cool, dude. I can see why you want her to get more exposure in the meta, Peach is a deep and quite interesting character.

To answer your question,:4shulk:.

I'm not one of those Shulk mains who think he's upper-mid or high tier when played "optimally" (that **** is a total meme and I hate when people use it as a buzzword), just as a disclaimer. Like I've said many times before, he's either near the top of low tier or bottom of mid. Around the viability of :4gaw::4palutena: or even :4robinm: if we're gonna push it. 40th-35th, nothing less, nothing more. His placement on the 4BR tier list, at 44th is a tad too low for what Shulk has done, especially since after the first list he got a surge in results that he lacked thoroughly throughout most of 2015.

In spite of all his issues (very poor frame data, mediocre mobility in vanilla, no autocancel aerials, finicky ledgesnap on his recovery, low shieldstun on aerials), Shulk still has some strong tools worth putting into consideration. The Monado Arts are a legitimately amazing move, Shulk would be bottom 10 if it weren't for them. I highlighted their advantages in a previous post, so I guess I'll list what each Art can do in a nutshell.

Shield
  • Allows him to live to crazy high percents (180-190% if you use the Art well enough). It's scary to think about, with this Art Shulk is able to gain endurance that outlasts every single superheavy bar :4dedede: at the press of:GCB:.
Jump
  • It granting him increased fall speed allows him to survive longer vertically.
  • He becomes an absolutely massive theat offstage thanks to fair and bair, and gives him great high and low recovery that he wouldn't have otherwise.
  • MONADO PURGE! Even disregarding that, uair becomes a move worth using because he can chase people with it near the upper blast zone.
Smash
  • Sadly the only art that doesn't do it's job. The risk:reward isn't good for Shulk, you'd expect more for how abysmal his disadvantage state is in this Art. But it grants Shulk three kill throws! You also gotta respect the hell out of bair and usmash at the ledge. The latter has the third highest knockback of any usmash in the game.
Speed
  • With this Art Shulk gets an absolutely beautiful pivot grab. Dthrow and fthrow lead into pretty nice combos in this art, usually a fair ladder, or nair into what you please (fsmash is usually the best option, or regrab). His high air mobility granted here also makes him a threat offstage like Jump does.
Buster
  • Grants Shulk much safer moves on block! Bair is especially scary. It does 17% and is basically a death sentence to characters with poor traction (:4luigi::4charizard:). Him dealing so much damage while low knockback as well allows him to rack up damage and gain advantage in a frighteningly short about of time. There's also worth mentioning that moves like ftilt, dsmash at the ledge and fsmash become potent shield breakers (it's meee), giving him a genuinely threatening pressure game.
Shulk has also gotten respectable results I want to expand on..

  • Nicko (SoCal): 65th at EVO 2016, always places top 5 at FAD Games and MSM, 17th at 2GGT: Mexico Saga, 1st at Los Angeles Fraud Fights
  • DarkWolf (Canada): 13th at GOML 2016, 9th at Nexus 2
  • Scarhi (France): 7th at Neokan Party
  • Kurage (Japan): 13th at Nexus 2
  • Xmas (North Florida): 13th at Unrivaled
  • Tremendo Dude (South Florida): 13th at EagleLAN, 3rd at Glitch low-tier, 33rd at Road to Shine, 13th at Vitality
I feel like Shulk can rise if people utilize his timeout ability with Jump more often, along with being able to use Monado Purge snd it's stages consistently. Him having a legit 50/50 is a pretty big deal. His players traveling more would also be pretty nice.



B R I N G I T B A C K
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top Bottom