Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Xandercosm]

For GOD's sake, people, I leave for 14 hours and you people write two entire pages of stuff.
Anyway, updated list.
S:

A:

A-:

B:

C:

D:

E:

N/A:

• I must admit I kinda derped an put WFT a bit lower than I thought I did. Same reason the original didn't have G&W, I was going to think about it harder but then I forgot to change it before posting.
  
• I had never seen that many Shulks, so that's why he was higher than he probably should've been.
  
• Sometimes I forget it's not Mid 2015 when people still attempted to play Roy.
• Meta Knight is in the position he is because I think that's how good he is, yeah. Did some adjustments with Fox, though, so now he's lower.
• Lifted Dr. Mario a bit because he can be good and I've seen Nairo do well with him.
• I changed Zelda's position because I'm a bit biased and I didn't want to put her in last place... but yeah, I did. Sad.

What do you people think of this new one?
I really, really don't want to get into an argument as to why Lucie's lack of tipper isn't that big a deal.

TWO Charizards? Make up your mind!

 

[FamilyTeam]

mind

Fixed it. Ignore that, move on!

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

sorry I am posting this again, but I need to know why people think shulk is bottom 10. I don't think he is that bad, he is mediocre though. I think shulks placing on the current tier list is the best for him.

 

[Deleted member]

sorry I am posting this again, but I need to know why people think shulk is bottom 10. I don't think he is that bad, he is mediocre though. I think shulks placing on the current tier list is the best for him.

Terrible frame data, general lack of safety in almost anything he does (which bites him hard, nothing he has is safe on shield unless he's using Buster), and due to his tall frame and lack of escape options he gets juggled pretty badly. His recovery is also poor, predictable and grants him little horizontal distance. Not to mention his MU spread is unimpressive, and he gets bodied by every top tier. Fox vs. Shulk is just outright sad lol

He's just not really a relevant character, and I can't name the last time Shulk has had any great results at a big tournament in several months, if ever.

 

[A10theHero]

I should post my tier list too, I guess.

Viable (Could win/place very well in regional and national tournaments):


Semi-Viable (Could win/place well in regional and local tournaments; can do decently at a national tournament--might need a secondary to do well):


Not Viable (Could place well at local tournaments; occasionally does well at regional tournaments; not really seen at national tournaments):


???:

Note: Characters are not exactly ordered within sections. I tried to put them in a somewhat ordered list, but I don't know enough about each and every character to say with 100% confidence that "Character A is better than B" or something like that. All I know is that Sheik and ZSS are the best. After that?
Also note that the ones towards the ends/beginning of the sections are somewhat borderline to me.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Not a bad list, A10...

 

[Zethoro]

I should post my tier list too, I guess.

Viable (Could win/place very well in regional and national tournaments):


Semi-Viable (Could win/place well in regional and local tournaments; can do decently at a national tournament--might need a secondary to do well):


Not Viable (Could place well at local tournaments; occasionally does well at regional tournaments; not really seen at national tournaments):


???:

Note: Characters are not exactly ordered within sections. I tried to put them in a somewhat ordered list, but I don't know enough about each and every character to say with 100% confidence that "Character A is better than B" or something like that. All I know is that Sheik and ZSS are the best. After that?
Also note that the ones towards the ends/beginning of the sections are somewhat borderline to me.

Might want to move WFT up; she's seen multiple top 32 finishes at national tournaments. Same goes for Wario.

 

[Smudges]

I should post my tier list too, I guess.

Viable (Could win/place very well in regional and national tournaments):


Semi-Viable (Could win/place well in regional and local tournaments; can do decently at a national tournament--might need a secondary to do well):


Not Viable (Could place well at local tournaments; occasionally does well at regional tournaments; not really seen at national tournaments):


???:

Note: Characters are not exactly ordered within sections. I tried to put them in a somewhat ordered list, but I don't know enough about each and every character to say with 100% confidence that "Character A is better than B" or something like that. All I know is that Sheik and ZSS are the best. After that?
Also note that the ones towards the ends/beginning of the sections are somewhat borderline to me.

I'd move Falco down a bit. Personally, I'd put him behind Doctor Mario, but...
I don't' really think that Falco is better than Wario or Peach.

Other than that, it's pretty good.

 

[wedl!!]

Falco sucks lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

Falco sucks lol

Falco isn't that bad. At least he has a versatile combo game.

 

[A10theHero]

Not a bad list, A10...

Thanks!

Might want to move WFT up; she's seen multiple top 32 finishes at national tournaments. Same goes for Wario.

Noted.

I'd move Falco down a bit. Personally, I'd put him behind Doctor Mario, but...
I don't' really think that Falco is better than Wario or Peach.

Other than that, it's pretty good.

Yeah, you got a point. I did some more research, and I guess I overrated him a bit.

 

[wedl!!]

Yea but if you want to play Falco you could just play Mario... or Fox... or Ryu...

Or a lot of other characters that do really similar things. Falco has almost nothing going for him. He's not a relevant character nor is he very good to begin with.

 

[Smudges]

Falco sucks lol

Yea but if you want to play Falco you could just play Mario... or Fox... or Ryu...

Or a lot of other characters that do really similar things. Falco has almost nothing going for him. He's not a relevant character nor is he very good to begin with.

Reasons please. Don't just reply that a character is bad; It's bound to start some kind of argument. AGAIN.

For example:
Falco's terrible mobility. His combo game is alright, but he doesn't have the speed to keep up with a majority of the other characters.
Ironic, because he has some of the best jumps in the game and, well, "Prefers the air".

Lasers aren't a very good projectile. Too easy to avoid, and really long endlag.

His Side B doesn't have a hitbox at the last third of the move, so it's really only good for recovering. If you do get hit, all it does is reset neutral, because it has no combo potential.

 

[Wintermelon43]

How does Kirby go even with Sheik or ZSS at all? It's another erroneous claim I'm sick of people spreading around, they both outpace and overwhelm Kirby in neutral, and can take advantage of his average ground mobility and terrible air speed. They're also very adept at edgeguarding Kirby because of this, and his matchup with them is impaired due to them having projectiles. You can say "oh, but Kirby can duck under them". I doubt a human has reflexes as fast to constantly duck under Sheik's needles.

Also, down throw has no reliable followups at all. Only his forward throw is good for combo'ing. His recovery isn't good either. Even though he has five jumps they're all low in height, and it's slow in speed so he's basically free for edgeguarding. Doesn't help when Final Cutter offers little horizontal distance.

Sheik might be bias because I do really well Vs. Sheik for some reason, I could be wrong on that. But ZSS is defitenly even, and most Kirby and Zss mains would agree. Kirby can crouchunder many of her attacks, and his up tilt works well on her due to fast falling speed. Other reason too, but will post later cause there is something I need to do, trying to make this quick

Down thriw has a few followups, not much but either way, it doesn't matter since he still has forward throw.

He's also slow, light, has poor recovery, subpar range, and somewhat prone to juggling.

As for strengths you listed, utilt only combos into itself 3-5 times on most characters. Down throw doesn't combo. All specials are quite laggy, and most of his moves have poor startup.

I can't comment on how accurate those you MUs are, since I'm not experienced enough to have an educational say, though I'm pretty sure he does not go even with Sheik and ZSS. Could you comment on how accurate they are @Feelicks?

Up tilt combos more on most characters, it's just characters like Jigglypuff who get hit five times since she has slow falling speed.

For Sheik, I made a mistake there. But for ZSS.... Well, as I said, ai'm gonna make this quick and will edit in a few hours. So two reasons: One is Kirby can crouch under many if her moves (This is effective with crouch walking) and because of her fast falling speed.

I haven't played Kirby seriously in a while now, so my thoughts are rusty. I can't comment on Lucario or Pac since I haven't been through that MU commonly with Kirbs at all but I'll give my best thoughts on the other characters. Gonna call @Mazdamaxsti since he still plays him more consistently, and can give more insightful input and correct what wrong observations I've made from my experience.

: Kirby loses this matchup, no questions asked. He gets camped, spaced out and killed early, especially with Purple Pikmin around. Less volatile than it was in Brawl, but still not very good. Despite Olimar's own poor aerial mobility, he at least makes it with it with his disjoints and hella good aerials.

: He actually does kinda alright here. Close to even, but it'd be more in Fox's favor if I had to pick. Though after the up throw buff, it'd definitely benefit Kirby more since he now has a good option to close out Fox's stock due to his own poor endurance. This set shows very well how the MU goes, imo. One of the best Fox players vs. one of the best Kirby players.

: Uh, how does Kirby win this again?? Villager is a monster at zoning and keeping people out, and Kirby is very susceptible to just that. Villager doesn't have much trouble killing off Kirby, especially with dtilt, utilt, and up air. His edgeguarding game is also potent to Kirby, especially since he can take advantage of Kirby's linear, slow recovery. Villager also has a frame 3 nair to break out of Kirby's combos. He's also practically impossible to edgeguard thanks to Balloon Trip covering so much distance and having good maneuverability.

: Wario beats Kirby as well. He has one of the best air speeds in the game, and can just air camp Kirby out most of the time on stages with platforms to get a free Waft charge. He can weave in and out with rising aerials, and back air is even a kill move. He benefits well from Rage thanks to him being a heavyweight, making it even more deadly if Kirby gets hit by something like his forward tilt, Waft, or his forward throw. It also helps Wario has one of the best command grabs in the game to assist him in racking up damage. Kirby can Inhale it and copy him, but good luck catching him first.

: As a running tread in this post, Kirby struggles against zoners. Unfortunately R.O.B. is one of the best of said field in the game, and can easily keep him out of his range with lasers, gyro and nair. Kirby's poor vertical survivability bites him here too since he's susceptible to being Beep-Booped (even if he can DI out of it), and R.O.B. has a myraid of finishers and moves that can put Kirby in an uncomfortable position. Down smash is a semi-spike, and Kirby hates semi-spikes. Up smash has a hitbox that pulls opponents into the actual hit, is great below platforms and comes out fast and has large range, and a fully charged Robo Beam is good for KOing offstage at high percents. R.O.B. is still combo food and Kirby goes get good reward once he gets in and penetrates his defenses, but it'll be a uphill battle for him to do so.

: I don't know how to feel about this one. Sometimes I feel like it's even, sometimes I feel like Kirby is at a big disadvantage thanks to Falcon's speed, juggle game, KOing power and great dash grab. Falcon is combo food like R.O.B. due to his high weight, but Kirby has trouble getting in thanks to Falcon's own great movement and frame data. Both characters are at a significant risk offstage due to their below-average recoveries, so I suppose that's a thing.



Sorry if I've been getting heated, promise to be more chill about this entire thing. I really do take this kinda stuff way too seriously, and I apologize. It just bothers me when I see many people make the same incorrect statements a lot of times.

Olimar is defitenly in Kirby's ability. The copy ability gives Kirby a move that beats pikmin throw, and somebody recently found an AT where Kirby can do something similar to a wavedash using this move.

I think you made a mistake with Villager; 45:55 meant in Villager's favor, not Kirby.

Laser are actually pretty bad aganist Kirby. Just Gyro and Nair keep him out. Rob is slow, and this helps Kirby hit him.

 

[Smudges]

Sheik might be bias because I do really well Vs. Sheik for some reason, I could be wrong on that. But ZSS is defitenly even, and most Kirby and Zss mains would agree. Kirby can crouchunder many of her attacks, and his up tilt works well on her due to fast falling speed. Other reason too, but will post later cause there is something I need to do, trying to make this quick

Down thriw has a few followups, not much but either way, it doesn't matter since he still has forward throw.

For Sheik, I made a mistake there. But for ZSS.... Well, as I said, ai'm gonna make this quick and will edit in a few hours. So two reasons: One is Kirby can crouch under many if her moves (This is effective with crouch walking) and because of her fast falling speed.

This lie needs to go away.
"Oh, Jigglypuff and Kirby have a good MU against ZSS because she can't grab them or hit them with dash attack."

While true, it offers NO benefit to the Kirby/Jigglypuff. All they can do is squat there and hope that ZSS will approach, which is something that ZSS should NOT do due to her lackluster neutral game.

Kirby and Jiggs both have NO projectiles, and almost always have to approach from the air. Somewhere where ZSS is good. Her powerful, wide range aerials effectively beat out Kirby/Jiggs due to their terrible range, and her aerials are also very safe on shield (Spaced Nair and Bair mostly). She can also easily grab them while they make grounded/very low aerial approaches, and her combo game works well on them because she kills early.

In addition, she escapes Utilt strings rather easily, due to Flip Kick coming out so fast and having Intangibility on frame 3

Again, this lie needs to go away. Kirby and Jigglypuff do NOT have a positive MU just because they can crouch under her grab.

This is like saying Metaknight has NO good MU's because everybody can shield, and all MK can do is dash attack into Uair. Bull****.

Looks like I was the one who got heated this time. Soz.

 

[Bloodcross]

When Smashboards goes Reddit smh

I also appreciate A10's list except I believe Palutena could be in Semi Viable

 

[Deleted member]

I agree that Palutena could be in semi-viable. She can definitely has some neat stuff. Dat invincibility on her bair. Jab1 links into so much stuff too, and it's one of her few moves that isn't terribly sluggish like most of her moveset.

 

[Xandercosm]

I should post my tier list too, I guess.

Viable (Could win/place very well in regional and national tournaments):


Semi-Viable (Could win/place well in regional and local tournaments; can do decently at a national tournament--might need a secondary to do well):


Not Viable (Could place well at local tournaments; occasionally does well at regional tournaments; not really seen at national tournaments):


???:

Note: Characters are not exactly ordered within sections. I tried to put them in a somewhat ordered list, but I don't know enough about each and every character to say with 100% confidence that "Character A is better than B" or something like that. All I know is that Sheik and ZSS are the best. After that?
Also note that the ones towards the ends/beginning of the sections are somewhat borderline to me.

Why is Greninja in "Viable" above characters like Yoshi, DK, Peach, etc?

Also, WFT should be in semi-viable. She is not even in the same stratosphere as characters like Rob, Wario, and the Pits. In fact, I'd say WFT is low-mid, considering the fact that she has a bad recovery, few combos, weak frame data, no true combo breakers, combo food frame/weight, etc. Until WFT trainer gets actual rep and wins a match/set against a serious player, I don't think she deserves to be any higher than low-mid or MAYBE mid.

 

[C3CC]

Well, after I got ignored hard two pages ago, I just want someone to answer me the following simple question:

-Why does EVERYONE think Rosalina is the third best and what makes, according to people, Sheik and Zero Suit Samus better than her ASIDE from tournament results? Thanks

 

[FamilyTeam]

-Why does EVERYONE think Rosalina is the third best and what makes, according to people, Sheik and Zero Suit Samus better than her ASIDE from tournament results? Thanks

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you. It's just that people post in this thread faster than the speed of Sonic so it's hard to keep track of what you're going to write.
My personal reason is that Rosalina can be very versatile while Luma is on the battlefield. Rosa doesn't even need Luma to get some janky early kills, but with it, she can go ham. Luma can help in edgeguards, attacks, spacing, and even survivability, since Rosa can very easily use it as a meatshield while she tries to get to a better spot in the stage.
Even when you lose the Luma, Rosa can stand her ground pretty okay. Not that great anymore considering Luma takes a bit long to spawn, now, but she's still a decent fighter on her on.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well, after I got ignored hard two pages ago, I just want someone to answer me the following simple question:

-Why does EVERYONE think Rosalina is the third best and what makes, according to people, Sheik and Zero Suit Samus better than her ASIDE from tournament results? Thanks

You want to know?

Main point; She actually loses a few matchups. Despite all of her strengths, Rosalina gets beat by a few characters, namely Meta Knight, Yoshi, and struggles against almost all characters that specialise in swordplay. Even though Rosalina can still do things on her own, as a single fighter she is still underwhelming.

Definitely within the top 5, but 100% certainly not the best character in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Terrible frame data, general lack of safety in almost anything he does (which bites him hard, nothing he has is safe on shield unless he's using Buster), and due to his tall frame and lack of escape options he gets juggled pretty badly. His recovery is also poor, predictable and grants him little horizontal distance. Not to mention his MU spread is unimpressive, and he gets bodied by every top tier. Fox vs. Shulk is just outright sad lol

He's just not really a relevant character, and I can't name the last time Shulk has had any great results at a big tournament in several months, if ever.

To add to Shulk's problems, each of his Monado Arts have flaws that can really hit Shulk hard if he's not careful.

Jump helps Shulk's recovery, but he'll take more damage than normal.

Speed helps Shulk's mobility, but hinders his jumping and attack power.

Shield helps Shulk's longevity, but hinders his mobility and attack power. The former is the most detrimental, as while Shield does enable Shulk to take a massive amount of damage before falling, the weakened mobility heavily hurts his recovery.

Buster makes Shulk's attacks deal more damage, and are more damaging to shields, but they offer less knockback overall, and he does take more damage than normal (although the damage taken is less than that of Jump). The increased attack power does make it harder for fighters to shield-grab Buster Shulk, but because the attack knockback is reduced, the heavier fighters can still easily punish Shulk right back after taking a hit.

Smash increases the knockback of Shulk's attacks, enabling him to KO opponents more easily, but the attacks deal less damage overall, offer very little shield damage, and Shulk's knockback resistance is also much weaker than normal. Dealing very little shield damage is one of the biggest offenders, as that makes Smash Shulk very vulnerable to shield-grabs.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

You want to know?

Main point; She actually loses a few matchups. Despite all of her strengths, Rosalina gets beat by a few characters, namely Meta Knight, Yoshi, and struggles against almost all characters that specialise in swordplay. Even though Rosalina can still do things on her own, as a single fighter she is still underwhelming.

Definitely within the top 5, but 100% certainly not the best character in the game.

I actually could potentially see her being number 1 later on in smash's lifetime, kinda like Melee where fox was not first for one of the earlier tier list and he replaced sheik who was number 1. Still, she is Number 3 at this point in time and that is what matters.

 

[Wintermelon43]

.....and he replaced sheik who was number 1.

The one thing that gives hope to Smash 4 that Sheik won't be OP

 

[Routa]

???:

Hmmm... Depending from the ruleset I would say that Gunner, Brawler and Swordfighter are (by your definition) not viable when using Guest 1111. I would say only Gunner turns into Semi Viable (by your definition once again) from the Miis when the rules allow Guest XXXX. I would also say that in Any size XXXX ruleset environment all of the Miis jump from Not Viable into Semi Viable.

Anyways what you guys think about Faptain, Dorkish and K.? They are all rather simple characters with rather simple gameplans. I personally can see them falling out from the high tier (not saying I don't think they are high tier, but I understand why people think they aren't high tier) due to their meta not going to evolve as much as others due to their simple tools.

Also that moment when your save file corrupts :S

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well, after I got ignored hard two pages ago, I just want someone to answer me the following simple question:

-Why does EVERYONE think Rosalina is the third best and what makes, according to people, Sheik and Zero Suit Samus better than her ASIDE from tournament results? Thanks

Rosalina has problems whenever she loses her Luma partner. A Lumaless Rosalina's offense takes a huge plummet, which can easily be taken advantage of by almost any fighter.

To add to Rosalina's problems, her air speed is at a mediocre level when compared to most other fighters, so fighters with above average walk speed values can easily catch up with her; this makes it hard for Rosalina to make a safe landing whenever she's airborne.

Also, despite of her high ranking, Rosalina actually has problems dealing with some of the lower tiered fighters. Some threats include Meta Knight, Pikachu, Link, Shulk, and interestingly enough, Zelda.

Even Little Mac is a huge problem for Rosalina, as his high ground mobility and powerful ground game can really put a massive amount of pressure on Rosalina, and she can't do anything to get away from him while Lumaless either. Also, Slip Counter gets past Rosalina's u-air, so even though Little Mac's air game is terrible, he's far from helpless in the air if the Little Mac player plays smart.

To put it mildly, while Rosalina is very viable, the flaws that she has while Lumaless means that she's not viable enough to be in the same league as Sheik and Zero Suit Samus; at best, Rosalina is an A-tier contender.

 

[DMWN]

Edited a bit.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
Z:

-Wii Fit Trainer moved up two places, an entire tier, then five places due to points being brought up about her having placed in top 32 in national tournaments.
-Roy was moved down to D tier due to an agreement that he's on the same plane as Marth in terms of viability.
-Palutena moved up one spot due to the consensus being that she has some interesting tools to help her in some situations.
-Ike moved down three spots due to the consensus being that he was over-hyped due to Ryo. In my opinon, he's still quite viable.

Lucas may seem a little too high to all of you, but you must consider his big buffs along with his placement on this thread's main tier list. It seems he can only be moved up from there, and I believe the rise I've given him from the thread's list is justified. Though he lacks results as of now, he is clearly quite capable.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Rosalina has problems whenever she loses her Luma partner. A Lumaless Rosalina's offense takes a huge plummet, which can easily be taken advantage of by almost any fighter.

To add to Rosalina's problems, her air speed is at a mediocre level when compared to most other fighters, so fighters with above average walk speed values can easily catch up with her; this makes it hard for Rosalina to make a safe landing whenever she's airborne.

Also, despite of her high ranking, Rosalina actually has problems dealing with some of the lower tiered fighters. Some threats include Meta Knight, Pikachu, Link, Shulk, and interestingly enough, Zelda.

Even Little Mac is a huge problem for Rosalina, as his high ground mobility and powerful ground game can really put a massive amount of pressure on Rosalina, and she can't do anything to get away from him while Lumaless either. Also, Slip Counter gets past Rosalina's u-air, so even though Little Mac's air game is terrible, he's far from helpless in the air if the Little Mac player plays smart.

To put it mildly, while Rosalina is very viable, the flaws that she has while Lumaless means that she's not viable enough to be in the same league as Sheik and Zero Suit Samus; at best, Rosalina is an A-tier contender.

Yeah, that basically sums up all her weaknesses.
Once upon a time, before all the nerfs, I used to see people putting Rosa either close to or even surpassing Sheik, but those days are long gone. Rosa is still an incredible character, but she's not as dominant as before.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yeah, that basically sums up all her weaknesses.
Once upon a time, before all the nerfs, I used to see people putting Rosa either close to or even surpassing Sheik, but those days are long gone. Rosa is still an incredible character, but she's not as dominant as before.

The same thing can also be said for Diddy Kong. Boy did that monkey get hit hard during the last set of balance patches.

 

[Bowserboy3]

-Roy was moved down to D tier due to an agreement that he's on the same plane as Marth in terms of viability.

Or you could have just moved Marth up and that would have been perfectly fine.

But yeah, Roy and Marth aren't that far apart really, but I still feel Roy should be higher, and in turn, Marth a bit higher too, but hey, your list!

 

[DMWN]

Or you could have just moved Marth up and that would have been perfectly fine.

But yeah, Roy and Marth aren't that far apart really, but I still feel Roy should be higher, and in turn, Marth a bit higher too, but hey, your list!

Noted, thank you.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Ok. I see lots of problems with this one.
Luigi is no longer top three material.

Yoshi has the frame data, the combos, and the kill setups, but no tournament results. Most of us put him near the top of B tier.

Zss is CLEARLY S tier material. High damage output, incredible frame data, and kill confirms on almost every character starting from as low as 20%, and a true 0-Death on fast fallers. Also, a godlike punish game.

Lucas, unfortunately, is not A tier. I'd put him somewhere as Low B, High C. This is because Lucas lacks approach options. He can keep the opponent out with PK Fire, because it autospaces very well, and he can control the stage, but he still can't get in. He is also gimped by Rosa and Villager, although to a lesser extent than Ness. He also has very few tourney results, other than PinkFresh at Xanadu's.

Mario is easily A tier. He has all the tools that he needs: Frame data, Mobility, Recovery, Combos.
He racks up damage really well, he has a projectile (Although it's not the best), he has a good recovery and a stalling tool for mixups, and he's fast.

Kirby has bad mobility, and terrible range, with no approach options. He lacks a solid neutral to set up for his good edgeguard/kill moves.

Ryu is A tier

Link is WAY high, and Tink is a bit low.
Toon Link can do vvvvvvvvv , Link can't.

Link has throw combos and more power in his kill moves, but that's about it. Switch Tink and Link's placements.

Roy is not better than Ike, switch their placements. Ike has good throw combos, a good jab, and immense killpower, as well as mobility. Roy has some throw combos and good mobility, but his recovery is worse than Ike's (Arugably), and his combos do less damage. Roy's throws don't set up for kills at higher percents, and don't combo at all past ~50%. Ike's do. Ike also has more range, and kills earlier, on top of having more survivability.

Peach has flaws, but is definitely not that low.

I'd put Captain Falcon at the top(ish) of B.

WFT is really, really low on your list.
WFT has had a lot of her problems fixed, including her grab. She has a decent neutral game, and can camp edge pretty hard. She has a lot of zoning tools, and utility in healing. She has pretty good killpower, augmented by deep breathing, and she has Ok frame data. Low C, High D tier character.

Bowser Junior and DHD are too low IMO, but I don't know much about them.

LITTLE MAC IS NOT THE WORST IN THE GAME. By far, not the worst.
That title goes to Jigglypuff. It's almost undeniable at this point that Jigglypuff is just poor in this game.

Finally, you put Pit above Dark Pit. I just had a huge discussion about this. Dusk Pit sums it up pretty well.

Thank you very much for your input, I just learned alot from you ^^
However, I do believe you're underestimating the likes of Kirby, Link, and Puff, respectively.

How's this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Tell me something though- Am I just suffering from the recent hype and placing Cloud a little too high here? He seems really, really good in this game; He's like if Falcon had added range and a projectile!

 

[C3CC]

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you. It's just that people post in this thread faster than the speed of Sonic so it's hard to keep track of what you're going to write.
My personal reason is that Rosalina can be very versatile while Luma is on the battlefield. Rosa doesn't even need Luma to get some janky early kills, but with it, she can go ham. Luma can help in edgeguards, attacks, spacing, and even survivability, since Rosa can very easily use it as a meatshield while she tries to get to a better spot in the stage.
Even when you lose the Luma, Rosa can stand her ground pretty okay. Not that great anymore considering Luma takes a bit long to spawn, now, but she's still a decent fighter on her on.

Don't worry I know that you're not online 24 hours anyway, haha. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who knows that Rosalina is still good (not great of course) on her own. I hate it when people say "Rosalina is nothing without Luma" when that is obviously not the case. I've gotten a few awesome kills using her alone.

Mario & Sonic Guy Thanks for your thorough answer! So it's no coincidence that I have so much difficulty landing with her.

Bowserboy3 Thanks for your answer! So at least she's Top 5 according to mostly everyone. Good, good. It's just nice to see your mains being appreciated by people. That's also why I like to see Mewtwo slowly crawling his way up the tier list. Who knows if he'll receive any further buffs.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I should post my tier list too, I guess.

Viable (Could win/place very well in regional and national tournaments):


Semi-Viable (Could win/place well in regional and local tournaments; can do decently at a national tournament--might need a secondary to do well):


Not Viable (Could place well at local tournaments; occasionally does well at regional tournaments; not really seen at national tournaments):


???:

Note: Characters are not exactly ordered within sections. I tried to put them in a somewhat ordered list, but I don't know enough about each and every character to say with 100% confidence that "Character A is better than B" or something like that. All I know is that Sheik and ZSS are the best. After that?
Also note that the ones towards the ends/beginning of the sections are somewhat borderline to me.

I like the way you have it ordered here, I'm gonna revise my list and emulate it more in your style.

I'd switch Ike and WFT with Cloud and Lucario, and I do think Puff and DDD are still semi-viablebut that's just me~

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you very much for your input, I just learned alot from you ^^
However, I do believe you're underestimating the likes of Kirby, Link, and Puff, respectively.

How's this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Tell me something though- Am I just suffering from the recent hype and placing Cloud a little too high here? He seems really, really good in this game; He's like if Falcon had added range and a projectile!

Your placement of Cloud seems reasonable enough, even though I'd place Ryu way above him. Though, I have a lot of quibbles with your list, I don't intend to come off rude here at all so apologies in advance:

• Palutena isn't the worst character in the game. I've repeated it many times at this point.
• Mac isn't bottom 3. He's definitely on the lower end of the cast and suffers from inconsistent results at top level, but he's not godawful.
• Dedede is not better than Samus or Charizard in any capacity.
• 1111 Mii Brawler shouldn't be anywhere else but F tier. Bad specials, recovery, laggy smashes, virtually no tournament representation, could go on.
• Roy... isn't better than Robin. Neither is Link.
• Why is Peach lower than Shulk? A Peach got 17th place at Genesis 3, and her abilities far outdo that of Shulk's, not to mention she has much better rep and results than him.
• What in Kongo Bongo's name is DK doing in bottom 15? He gets insane damage racking and KOing ability off a grab, has great air and ground mobility and is very good at spacing.
• Luigi is not top 5. I don't see how he's better than Villager, Mario, Diddy, Fox and much more Sonic.
• Meta Knight is far too low. How is a character irrelevant as Lucas above him?
• Lucario has little to suggest he's top 15.
• Kirby is most definitely not better than Toon Link, Mega Man, Olimar, Ike or Pac-Man.
• ZSS worse than Pikachu and Rosa? I'm not seeing this. ZSS gets far more reward on hit and off a grab than both characters despite her arguably lackluster neutral, and has much more representation in tournaments.
• Ness is not better than anybody in his tier except Lucario and Luigi. He's a very good character, but defo not top 5.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Thank you very much for your input, I just learned alot from you ^^
However, I do believe you're underestimating the likes of Kirby, Link, and Puff, respectively.

How's this:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Tell me something though- Am I just suffering from the recent hype and placing Cloud a little too high here? He seems really, really good in this game; He's like if Falcon had added range and a projectile!

I am going to give a lot of critisism, so do not feel upset. I will try to not make it seem mean cause I PERSOANLLY do not agree with a lot of the things on here. Going to go top to bottom btw



is not number 2, swap with ZSS imo but I would like to see why you think this.
is no where near better than also is not better than
at this point is more than likely better than Cloud
is FAR too high and the thing i disagree most about this tier list. Should be at MOST B tier low
FAR TOO LOW. He is an easy top 10
like Lucario he is too high, should be in C around where is atm, and should be in this spot
<
I am going to assume you used any size miis or all customs but in case not, is one of the worst
IS ACTUALLY THE THING I DISAGREE WITH and should at least be where Pac is, not swapping the two.
is not the worst. She has nice throw combos and good aerials.

Again i do not want this to seem like i am bashing you, just that a lot of things I did not like.

EDIT:And 'd literally Feelicks said all i needed to say

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Duck Hunt so low everywhere

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Duck Hunt so low everywhere

It is reasonable. He does have good spacing, but he has low kills power, not great throws, and the representation is low.

 

[DMWN]

@Feelicks Why do I get the feeling you have some sort of strange vendetta against Lucas?
It's not that I don't agree with your comment, heheh. You just seem to doubt the poor lad. In response to your "overall-who-was-buffed-who-was-nerfed" list, Lucas was inadvertently buffed by the tweaks to the physics engine, and his buffs to his grab speed, combo ability, z-aerial, and landing lag far outweigh his nerfs in damage output and advanced techniques. Overall, he was buffed, despite having more nerfs than buffs.
Thank heavens, too--he's very fun to play as now.

 

[Deleted member]

@Feelicks Why do I get the feeling you have some sort of strange vendetta against Lucas?
It's not that I don't agree with your comment, heheh. You just seem to doubt the poor lad. In response to your "overall-who-was-buffed-who-was-nerfed" list, Lucas was inadvertently buffed by the tweaks to the physics engine, and his buffs to his grab speed, combo ability, z-aerial, and landing lag far outweigh his nerfs in damage output and advanced techniques. Overall, he was buffed, despite having more nerfs than buffs.
Thank heavens, too--he's very fun to play as now.

I don't doubt him, I just feel like people overestimate him when he has so little results in majors. Pink Fresh does good with him at Xanadu like you said, but that's not exactly the biggest of accomplishments.

The buffs Lucas got last patch were very welcomed though, especially with how good his grab is now. Even if he's better relative to the cast in SSB4 compared to Brawl due to the engine changes and the like, he himself as a character was nerfed mostly due to his decreased damage/knockback output across the board and losing stuff like Zap Jump and Magnet Pull that were so pivotal to his approach. Even then I still play him a lot too, he's definitely fun but he definitely needs more before I can say he can do very well in the meta.