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Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

LRodC

Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
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818
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Philadelphia, PA
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LightningrodC
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I personally think in terms of a 1 vs 1 setting, Robin should be near the bottom. He's really slow and he has no real escape options with a mediocre recovery and slow (but powerful) projectiles. If against a fast character, he's pretty much forced to roll away and charge Thunder/use Arcfire. I know that some of those flaws can apply to characters like Ganondorf, but Robin also doesn't have the raw power that Ganon does. He's not completely unusable or anything and I know he has a good air game with the Levin sword, but I feel like nobody ever seems to mention his flaws but are so quick to point out flaws in other characters who I actually think are better off. He can probably do pretty decent to well against fighters with a more campy playstyle and ones who can't really approach, but I can see him being absolutely demolished by rushdown characters.
 
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Disgaea D2

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
49
Location
Elkridge, Maryland
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BlueDisgaeaD2
Not meaning to make a scene but I think G&W is not that low on the tier list. Second to last not including miis really?! That's stretching it too much. I main him and you may think I'm biased but G&W has a lot of untapped potential.
 

Morgan S. Court

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 6, 2015
Messages
26
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SoCal
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MorganSCourt
3DS FC
0216-1002-7781
I personally think in terms of a 1 vs 1 setting, Robin should be near the bottom. He's really slow and he has no real escape options with a mediocre recovery and slow (but powerful) projectiles. If against a fast character, he's pretty much forced to roll away and charge Thunder/use Arcfire. I know that some of those flaws can apply to characters like Ganondorf, but Robin also doesn't have the raw power that Ganon does. He's not completely unusable or anything and I know he has a good air game with the Levin sword, but I feel like nobody ever seems to mention his flaws but are so quick to point out flaws in other characters who I actually think are better off. He can probably do pretty decent to well against fighters with a more campy playstyle and ones who can't really approach, but I can see him being absolutely demolished by rushdown characters.

As a Robin Main, I can assure you quite the opposite is true. My experience with Robin heavily relies on spacing and is excellent at it, generally giving him/her a huge advantage over most of the melee-only cast. Sure Robin's the slowest, but she has the widest movepool in the game along with good aerial agility. Ironically, I've had more difficulty playing against defensive characters as their projectiles cancel mine, but nothing is set in stone.

I am well aware Robin has a great amount of flaws but it often takes a while to know a character's strengths and weaknesses by playing both with and against that character. It's true that some of his aspects only take effect in multi-battles (Thoron hitting multiple opponents and Nosferatu dealing damage to those contacting the victim) but I seem to excel with Robin in 1vs1 (and on FD, of all places.)

I did write a rather long guide on my experience with Robin (http://smashboards.com/guides/treatise-on-robin.389/) but like everybody seems to think their main needs one, I think Robin simply calls for more buffing.
 

Woohoo982

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
149
Location
Clobberin' dat dere Kirby
OMG Game&Watch is so underrated.Just because he lost bucket braking does not mean near-bottom tier!! He has a great aerial game with his uair(it could never kill in Brawl)and Oil Panic can now fill up in one strong shot(like Thoron or Samus's Charged Shot),making it more efficient.Plus, chef is a good projectile,judge can hit the same number twice and Fire can combo into so many aerials. G&W for at LEAST B-Tier. He's probably the most underrated character on the roster so far.Second-to-last not including miIs is not where G&W should be."But he's light"you may say. But he's also fast,and last time I checked,Diddy(aka overrated),Ness,Sheik,Sonic were all light,and where are they? S or A tier(but seriously,why is sonic up at A)

(really though,if people think game and watch is worse than Samus(power suit) and dedede then they need to see some good g&w players)

P.S: Why is Mii Brawler up at C?assuming normal height.weight and 1111 moves,he sucks. Brawler to H tier,Swordfighter up to G tier
 
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Woohoo982

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
149
Location
Clobberin' dat dere Kirby
Palutena,Dedede,Samus,Doc Mario,Liitle Mac and Mii Brawler are above game&watch.Last i checked,any good g&w can reliably 3 stock those guys.
Palutena:1 attacking special,can be oil panic'd
Dedede:....yeah
Samus: Oil Panic kills her
Doc Mario:check the G&W Matchup thread. Mario's matchup is 60:40 g&w there,so it stands that Doc would have the same hard time against g&w as well.
Little Mac:He isn't that hard to get into the air.
Mii Brawler: should go down to SSB Samus+SSBM Kirby+SSBB Ganon tier
 

MistressRemilia

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
425
Location
France
Palutena,Dedede,Samus,Doc Mario,Liitle Mac and Mii Brawler are above game&watch.Last i checked,any good g&w can reliably 3 stock those guys.
Palutena:1 attacking special,can be oil panic'd
Dedede:....yeah
Samus: Oil Panic kills her
Doc Mario:check the G&W Matchup thread. Mario's matchup is 60:40 g&w there,so it stands that Doc would have the same hard time against g&w as well.
Little Mac:He isn't that hard to get into the air.
Mii Brawler: should go down to SSB Samus+SSBM Kirby+SSBB Ganon tier
Doc has pills over fireballs, and better kill power/potential. The mobility in this matchup doesn't matter as much as you'd expect, so that's why G&W's MU vs Doc is worse than vs Mario.

Also, i guess we need to vote so:
-1 Robin ( Seriously Robin is complete trash )
+1 Dr.Mario ( Ppl sleeping on Doc because of his recovery, but he's really solid & should prob sit in Mid Low tier )
+1 Meta Knight ( he's lacking tour representation & ppl are sleeping on him, but he's also quite an amazing threat )
-1 Ganondorf ( ppl are so desperate, Ganon might just be the worst of this game )
-1 Ike ( Lol? How? Why? I really have nothing to say on this one, Ike is just eh, he has few things going for him but that's it )
+1 G&W ( One of the nice niches characters with pretty interestings matchups, could deserve a bump. Being laggy & a very lightweight kind of sucks through )
-1 Mewtwo ( Mewtwo is simply too high for what it actually offers, it's more on par with the niches characters )
-1 C.Falcon ( Extremely overrated character in the mind of the above average player, he has a couple of problems & needs a bit of a backups as his matchups are sometimes not that good )
+1 Falco ( The high skill ceiling bird has some good matchups & points going for it, such as his, when mastered, neutral game, which can beat a bunch of higher ranked charas )
-1 Ness ( Same as Falcon )
+1 Wii Fit Trainer ( The oddball of this game definitly has potential, through very unorthodox )

And that's about it
 
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Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
Who said we were voting? It has to be tier specific anyway.
 

Morgan S. Court

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 6, 2015
Messages
26
Location
SoCal
NNID
MorganSCourt
3DS FC
0216-1002-7781
Doc has pills over fireballs, and better kill power/potential. The mobility in this matchup doesn't matter as much as you'd expect, so that's why G&W's MU vs Doc is worse than vs Mario.

Also, i guess we need to vote so:
-1 Robin ( Seriously Robin is complete trash )
+1 Dr.Mario ( Ppl sleeping on Doc because of his recovery, but he's really solid & should prob sit in Mid Low tier )
+1 Meta Knight ( he's lacking tour representation & ppl are sleeping on him, but he's also quite an amazing threat )
-1 Ganondorf ( ppl are so desperate, Ganon might just be the worst of this game )
-1 Ike ( Lol? How? Why? I really have nothing to say on this one, Ike is just eh, he has few things going for him but that's it )
+1 G&W ( One of the nice niches characters with pretty interestings matchups, could deserve a bump. Being laggy & a very lightweight kind of sucks through )
-1 Mewtwo ( Mewtwo is simply too high for what it actually offers, it's more on par with the niches characters )
-1 C.Falcon ( Extremely overrated character in the mind of the above average player, he has a couple of problems & needs a bit of a backups as his matchups are sometimes not that good )
+1 Falco ( The high skill ceiling bird has some good matchups & points going for it, such as his, when mastered, neutral game, which can beat a bunch of higher ranked charas )
-1 Ness ( Same as Falcon )
+1 Wii Fit Trainer ( The oddball of this game definitly has potential, through very unorthodox )

And that's about it
"Seriously Robin is complete trash"

I know she needs buff, even if it's slight, but that's simply just rich. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E60KxOR1fPc
 

Woohoo982

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
149
Location
Clobberin' dat dere Kirby
Doc has pills over fireballs, and better kill power/potential. The mobility in this matchup doesn't matter as much as you'd expect, so that's why G&W's MU vs Doc is worse than vs Mario.

Also, i guess we need to vote so:
-1 Robin ( Seriously Robin is complete trash )
+1 Dr.Mario ( Ppl sleeping on Doc because of his recovery, but he's really solid & should prob sit in Mid Low tier )
+1 Meta Knight ( he's lacking tour representation & ppl are sleeping on him, but he's also quite an amazing threat )
-1 Ganondorf ( ppl are so desperate, Ganon might just be the worst of this game )
-1 Ike ( Lol? How? Why? I really have nothing to say on this one, Ike is just eh, he has few things going for him but that's it )
+1 G&W ( One of the nice niches characters with pretty interestings matchups, could deserve a bump. Being laggy & a very lightweight kind of sucks through )
-1 Mewtwo ( Mewtwo is simply too high for what it actually offers, it's more on par with the niches characters )
-1 C.Falcon ( Extremely overrated character in the mind of the above average player, he has a couple of problems & needs a bit of a backups as his matchups are sometimes not that good )
+1 Falco ( The high skill ceiling bird has some good matchups & points going for it, such as his, when mastered, neutral game, which can beat a bunch of higher ranked charas )
-1 Ness ( Same as Falcon )
+1 Wii Fit Trainer ( The oddball of this game definitly has potential, through very unorthodox )

And that's about it
Yeah,but doc is a near-clone of Mario,so the matchup would still be leaning in G&W's favor.
But if were voting now then
+1 Mr Game And Watch
+1 Charizard
+1 Marth
-1 Diddy
-1 Palutena
 
Y

YoshiStar5000

Guest
+1 Falco

Falco has a pretty bad approach game, and I see that plus his lasers being crap now, but falco has some amazing follow ups. Dthrow combos into a lot and Uthrow to Uair and a bunch of others. I'd put him a little higher.

+1 Rosalina

Top 5 at the very least. Maybe even top 3 now the patch nerfed some characters.

+1 Greninja

18th? Ehh... just a little higher. Of course he has some weaknesses in his grab and OOS game, but has great follow ups, is fast, and can kill.

+1 Duck hunt duo

Why is he so low?

+1 Bowser

Bowser is like Falco. He has very big noticable strengths in Power and speed but also has noticable weaknesses. A little higher.

+1 Villager

Just overall the best zoning character in the game IMO.

-1 Pikachu

People are seriously overestimating this guy I think. Top 10 yes, but that landing lag... he also lacks kill options.

-1 Ness

Top 5? No... I'm not really seeing him in top 10 either. He's very floaty and has a gimpable recovery. I see top 12 maybe, but not top 10.
 

Morgan S. Court

Smash Cadet
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May 6, 2015
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26
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SoCal
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Meeeeee!
As a :4zelda:main who received compliments by Cosmo in person after friendlies at AGDQ, Zelda is low tier.
Not bottom, but low.
Mid-low at best.
Most of my victories come from lack of matchup knowledge on my opponents' part.
Er, what makes Zelda "Low tier"? I know she has meh speed and side/down specials but otherwise has a great amount of potential and power.
 

Valamway

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 4, 2015
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166
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Northeast Ohio
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Er, what makes Zelda "Low tier"?
She's quite killable, and not small.
Her up special is great in a lot of ways, but as a killmove its use will decline as people learn the matchup.
She has worse than meh speed, but not every character needs to be fast...
The worst thing is her near-total lack of options in neutral against the rushdown-oriented characters that will undoubtedly dominate the meta in this game.
They destroy her.

I don't think she's trash, or even terrible.
Her upB and nB make up for a lot of awful endlag on her normals.
Her normals all come out decently quick, but she has ZERO moves that come out before frame 5.
 

LunarWingCloud

Smash Lord
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Sheik still top tier, good times :p
I honestly think Sheik is the best character in the game right now. Her or Rosalina. While Rosalina isn't speedy she has Luma and can kill pretty early, but then Sheik has the best damage-racking in the game and can get you up to kill range quickly, but lacks the more reliable and earlier killing moves that other characters do. However, both characters only have a few small weaknesses and are really good at basically anything else.

I don't think any other character could be argued to be the best character and this is coming from someone who doesn't actually main either of them. From a Pika main perspective I think Pikachu is top tier potential, but not quite there. Certainly around the top 5, though.
 

NouveauRétro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2015
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319
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Long Island, currently upstate
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Royal_Bros.
OMG Game&Watch is so underrated.Just because he lost bucket braking does not mean near-bottom tier!! He has a great aerial game with his uair(it could never kill in Brawl)and Oil Panic can now fill up in one strong shot(like Thoron or Samus's Charged Shot),making it more efficient.Plus, chef is a good projectile,judge can hit the same number twice and Fire can combo into so many aerials. G&W for at LEAST B-Tier. He's probably the most underrated character on the roster so far.Second-to-last not including miIs is not where G&W should be."But he's light"you may say. But he's also fast,and last time I checked,Diddy(aka overrated),Ness,Sheik,Sonic were all light,and where are they? S or A tier(but seriously,why is sonic up at A)

(really though,if people think game and watch is worse than Samus(power suit) and dedede then they need to see some good g&w players)

P.S: Why is Mii Brawler up at C?assuming normal height.weight and 1111 moves,he sucks. Brawler to H tier,Swordfighter up to G tier
Mr. Game and Watch is underrated, but like mid-high C-tier. I wouldn't say he's better than, say Shulk. Unless we're talking doubles, then he's like A+, SSS tier easy.

First, your argument. Chef IS a good, underrated projectile, especially when B-reversed or wavebounced. His uair, while strong, is pretty unreliable, especially compered to other killer uairs like ROB's or Dedede's. His aerial game is certainly top 5, but Sm4sh does have a lot of ground game, and his aerials are not as good at shield pressure compared to Brawl. especially his bair, but no one ever has the patience to wait out the multi-hits :awesome:. Landing a judge is a rare treat due to its startup and cooldown, not to mention that being able to hit the same # twice in a row makes 9 rarer. Fire doesn't combo into any aerials past like 30%, you can get a fair at very low %s, and nothing else. It's gimping ability is off the charts though. :b:

Other weaknesses. He cannot guarantee a kill if his life depended on it. None of his *great* aerials kills before 140% unless you're at the edge with fair, which still doesn't kill early. His smashes DO kill early, unless you don't hit the sweetspot. This makes it very hard to kill turtling enemies, especially since he doesn't have a kill option that beats shield. That's a huge issue with G&W because he is light, so he can't trade blow for blow until the opponent is at a high percent. All the high tier characters you mentioned were "light" still die much later than G&W.

He isn't hopeless though. His down-throw grab game and combos are exceptional. Properly played, he can rack up damage incredibly quickly with combos that do around 18-26%. His aerials are amazing for gimping and stage spiking, which somewhat but don't completely make up for how much effort is required to kill with him. His speed upgrade allows him to follow up from Chef more then he's ever been able to, and his really low ducking profile along with Judge and Bucket make for game-changing X-Factors, depending on the MU.
All in all, he's much better than people give him credit for, but he's not amazing, not by a longshot.:4gaw:

Oh by the way, he isn't that fast on the ground. His run speed is 28th, putting him behind the likes of Mewtwo, Rosalina, DK, and even ROB, all characters known to have middling speeds. But its OK because he's fast enough to punish rolls if he keeps running :b: (Stupid Dr. Mario, that's part of the reason I dropped him)
 
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NouveauRétro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2015
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319
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Long Island, currently upstate
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Royal_Bros.
-1 Ness

Top 5? No... I'm not really seeing him in top 10 either. He's very floaty and has a gimpable recovery. I see top 12 maybe, but not top 10.
You're a Yoshi main, I presume. I guess being floaty would be a bit of a problem against Yoshi, but Ness has like one of the top 10 aerial sets in the game, and his air dodge is wonky, making him oddly difficult to juggle. Also, Ness is about slightly less gimpable then Captain Falcon, because he has a great double jump and PK Thunder has really good control, plus a good Ness will do his best to make sure you aren't right above him when he initiates the move(after the PK Thunder is out you're just in the way of a stock loss machine, unless you're reeeeeeeaaaaaallly on point with your aerial or you're in position for a tech).

But yeah, he is NOT better than Rosalina. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
I put him at 5-10 range though.
 

Wyzill

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
71
Location
America
+1 Ness
+1 Swordsman Mii
-1 yoshi
+3 kirby
-1 Mario
-1 pit
-1 villager ger
+1 pikachu
-1 lucario
+1 rosalina
+1 Bowser jr
 
Y

YoshiStar5000

Guest
You're a Yoshi main, I presume. I guess being floaty would be a bit of a problem against Yoshi, but Ness has like one of the top 10 aerial sets in the game, and his air dodge is wonky, making him oddly difficult to juggle. Also, Ness is about slightly less gimpable then Captain Falcon, because he has a great double jump and PK Thunder has really good control, plus a good Ness will do his best to make sure you aren't right above him when he initiates the move(after the PK Thunder is out you're just in the way of a stock loss machine, unless you're reeeeeeeaaaaaallly on point with your aerial or you're in position for a tech).

But yeah, he is NOT better than Rosalina. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
I put him at 5-10 range though.
At most I would put him at 8-10. I've played many amazing Ness players and I have seen how amazing Ness can be. But we need to remember that every character can do crazy things. I have seen some crazy Samus and Charizard players but it just isn't as good as what other characters can do. That's how I feel about Ness. Definately has a lot of potential, but other characters just have more.
 

SpottedCerberus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
325
Mega Man wrecks several top characters. He is very arguably the worst match-up for both Villager and Luigi. He has an edge against Diddy, Falcon, and Rosalina, and a clear advantage against both Sonic and Zero Suit.

Further MU explanation-
I don't think I have to justify Luigi and Villager. I've never seen a main of either character, who actually has experience in the match-ups, try to argue that it isn't a very clear win for MM. Some early theprycrafters thought Villager's pocket would negate MM, but in all actuality it's not that effective. F-smash is the only thing worth pocketing, as pocketing anything else is just an invitation for MM to use f-smash.

Diddy: This is just my post-patch impression. Diddy's hoo-hah was what made him scary for Mega Man. Now, he's not nearly as potent because he's not killing as early. Maybe it's even, but I think MM has a slight edge.

Falcon: He lacks the tools to deal with a ranged character. He can rush-down pretty well, but pellet spam and shield grabs shut him down rather effectively. Still, this would be a hard match-up if leafstooling didn't gimp falcon so easily. But it does.

Rosalina: Remember when Zucco 2-stocked M2K's Rosalina? Before that, like most people, I assumed the match-up was awful for Mega Man. But MM has so many projectiles that Rosa can't hope to negate them all, not when her down-b has a punishable amount of end-lag. And crash bomb is crazy effective against Luma. MM has all the tools to keep Luma off stage and Rosa on the defensive. He has the edge for sure.

Sonic: One pellet knocks him out of his little spinny-ball thing. He actually has laughable priority. I used to think his ability to approach diagonally was annoying, but then I got the hang of diagonal Metal Blades and SH lemons. Also, customs help Mega Man here. Danger Wrap and Tornado Hold.

I think people have issues with him for two reasons: 1. People try to go against him like they would against any other character, which doesn't work because his speed and ability to punish across the stage makes him a unique match-up for most of the cast. Mega Man doesn't really have this issue as much, because he is a very match-up specific character. He plays very differently depending on who he's up against. 2. Just like in Brawl, there is a certain subset of Sonic main that is extremely dedicated to their character. This often seems to be more true of Sonic than any other character, and these mains make him look a lot better than he is. They just know their character and his strengths better than you know yours, and they're more knowledgeable about the match-up as well.

ZSS: This one isn't based as much on personal experience, because I haven't played it as much, but the general consensus on both character boards is that it's just a question of how much MM wins by. Is it a hard counter or just an irritating match-up? Most people are somewhere in-between those two extremes, but I rarely see someone argue that it's even and I've never seen someone argue that ZSS has the advantage.

Other MUs of note-

D3: I think MM hard counters him. One pellet reflects a gordo. MM will always win that game of ping pong. I know a smart D3 will never just toss them out in neutral, but Air Shooter and Tornado Hold (I think?) should negate their edge-guarding potency. (I'm not sure about Tornado Hold, because I've mostly just played with customs against CPUs, and not as often as I use default. But I don't see how it wouldn't. I have definitely used air shooter though.) The biggest thing is......well, D3's size. His hitbox is massive. He has a lot of difficulty getting around MM's projectile walls. It's also very easy to sweetspot up-tilt for pretty early KO's and he gets caught in air shooter pretty easily. D3's deceptively long range is one of his greatest strengths, but MM's optimal range is just outside of his and he really struggles to get in. And then he struggles more because MM's attacks are just faster. Of course, this could just be my lack of knowledge of D3 in this game. Because I think his match-ups against Villager, Mario, and Luigi are similarly awful and among the worst in the game. And it seems unlikely that a character other than Little Mac could get hard countered by 4 others in such a balanced game. (Little Mac doesn't really count, because he's weird. He's never even felt like a smash character. Which is also why I like him.)

Fox: Contrary to what you might think, this is a very close and probably even match-up. The reflector does not negate MM. The only scary thing is a reflected f-smash, but no decent MM depends on f-smash or would throw one out recklessly. Reflector has punishable end-lag and a reflected pellet or metal blade can be cancelled out by another pellet, which does not have punishable end-lag. Fox can't just lay on his reflector the whole time. Meanwhile, MM's recovery is harder to gimp (although it covers less distance), he has more survivability, and he has more KO power. One mistake could lead to Fox getting KO'd w/ an up-tilt or d-smash, whereas if MM makes a mistake he'll just take a fair amount of damage. Fox doesn't get early KOs and he also has difficulty KOing past a certain percent. He just has a lot of issues to overcome.

Sheik: Almost everyone struggles against Sheik. Mega Man is no exception. This is not a fun match-up.

Mario: This MU isn't as bad as people make it out to be, but it's definitely negative. But this and the above are the only bad MUs MM has against the high to top tier characters.

Falco: This is a slightly negative match-up. The offensive potential of his reflector makes it a bigger threat than Fox's, and he doesn't have the same issues with KOing. But, he's a low-tier character who isn't used very often. How many Falco mains are there? Not many this time around.

Samus: MM hard counters her, and may well be her worst MU.

Yoshi: Even or slight advantage. Yoshi isn't comfortable in this MU. He doesn't like the mid-range pressure that MM applies so easily. SH aerials (fair, nair) and up-tilts can screw with his aerial approaches. Leaf shield, if it isn't overused, can be effective as a projectile, especially when combo'd w/ Metal Blade. It can also be good for pummeling. Yoshi has a bad grab so MM is going to be grabbing him a lot more than vice-versa. Plus, Yoshi has a crappy roll which is also nice. But eggs are irritating as hell and they can really turn things in his favor. He can potentially take the advantage in long or short range, and his recovery is hard to gimp. So I'd lean towards the MU being even; it's kind of a pain for both sides. But this is on of the match-ups I'm less knowledgeable about, and some people insist that MM wins it.

Pikachu: (I didn't mention him w/ the other top tier characters that MM beats because I think customs might change this, but I haven't had any experience with Heavy Skull Bash.) Pika can't deal with lemon spam, and he doesn't have the best KO power. MM kills him much earlier. MM has an advantage. It's not crushing, but Pika faces an uphill battle.

In Conclusion: Mega Man has strong match-ups, especially against the upper tier characters. He is extremely versatile and unpredictable. He is top 8, at least. And I believe his placement in the 'official' tier list will eventually reflect this.
 
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Woohoo982

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
149
Location
Clobberin' dat dere Kirby
Mr. Game and Watch is underrated, but like mid-high C-tier. I wouldn't say he's better than, say Shulk. Unless we're talking doubles, then he's like A+, SSS tier easy.

First, your argument. Chef IS a good, underrated projectile, especially when B-reversed or wavebounced. His uair, while strong, is pretty unreliable, especially compered to other killer uairs like ROB's or Dedede's. His aerial game is certainly top 5, but Sm4sh does have a lot of ground game, and his aerials are not as good at shield pressure compared to Brawl. especially his bair, but no one ever has the patience to wait out the multi-hits :awesome:. Landing a judge is a rare treat due to its startup and cooldown, not to mention that being able to hit the same # twice in a row makes 9 rarer. Fire doesn't combo into any aerials past like 30%, you can get a fair at very low %s, and nothing else. It's gimping ability is off the charts though. :b:

Other weaknesses. He cannot guarantee a kill if his life depended on it. None of his *great* aerials kills before 140% unless you're at the edge with fair, which still doesn't kill early. His smashes DO kill early, unless you don't hit the sweetspot. This makes it very hard to kill turtling enemies, especially since he doesn't have a kill option that beats shield. That's a huge issue with G&W because he is light, so he can't trade blow for blow until the opponent is at a high percent. All the high tier characters you mentioned were "light" still die much later than G&W.

He isn't hopeless though. His down-throw grab game and combos are exceptional. Properly played, he can rack up damage incredibly quickly with combos that do around 18-26%. His aerials are amazing for gimping and stage spiking, which somewhat but don't completely make up for how much effort is required to kill with him. His speed upgrade allows him to follow up from Chef more then he's ever been able to, and his really low ducking profile along with Judge and Bucket make for game-changing X-Factors, depending on the MU.
All in all, he's much better than people give him credit for, but he's not amazing, not by a longshot.:4gaw:

Oh by the way, he isn't that fast on the ground. His run speed is 28th, putting him behind the likes of Mewtwo, Rosalina, DK, and even ROB, all characters known to have middling speeds. But its OK because he's fast enough to punish rolls if he keeps running :b: (Stupid Dr. Mario, that's part of the reason I dropped him)
Some pros main G&W( GimR)
I agree with the grab game though. His down throw game is a watered down wobble basically.
He has great combos as well, and you forgot he gained windboxes on his manhole and trumpet.
 

NouveauRétro

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Some pros main G&W( GimR)
I agree with the grab game though. His down throw game is a watered down wobble basically.
He has great combos as well, and you forgot he gained windboxes on his manhole and trumpet.
The windboxes don't do much, and I already covered his combo game.
The dtilt windbox's usefulness is MU dependent(ex. You can raise the Fox/Bird Phantasm to punish or reject most of Pacman's fruits), so not super relevant. uair windbox is slightly more relevant because it certainly can screw up landings, but GaW doesn't have the fall speed to capitalize properly, being tied for third slowest faller if I remember correctly.

Also, of course some pros main G&W, the whole point of my argument was to say he wasn't trash. GimR's good, and this Paper guy beat Chibo gave Nairo a run for his money, though I may be misremembering that last part. RegiShikimi won some online tourneys too, look him up on youtube.
 

Golden Rainbow

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Some pros main G&W( GimR)
I agree with the grab game though. His down throw game is a watered down wobble basically.
He has great combos as well, and you forgot he gained windboxes on his manhole and trumpet.
GimR is definitely not a pro. He plays better than your average casual but that's it.

And, yes, he does have excellent combos out of down-throw, but his rather laggy aerials and awkward projectile put him at a sour spot when approaching to actually get them. His lack of solid kill options is also pretty harmful, and the lack of a notorious kill throw is also bad. Being a lightweight is also a double-edged sword in Smash: you're hard to combo, but you need less combos to be in kill range. Fire also helps him escape combos, though. Dair is good at edgeguarding, but mostly it's potentially useless against the best recoveries in the game - with the top tiers having stuff like teleports (Sheik), extremely dangerous hitboxes (Ness), windboxes (DK), Super Armor (Yoshi), lots of speed (ZSS's tether recovery, Luigi Up-B, and Mario Up-B are good examples), it ends up being pretty situational, not counting characters like Rosalina can just shrug it off because their recovery's just too good.

Tl;dr: I feel he's too busy playing The Last Airbender to fix his gimmick-based play and lack of solid approaches and kill options. His position in this tier list is not unwarranted, but is subject to (slight) change if really good people appear.
 

NouveauRétro

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GimR is definitely not a pro. He plays better than your average casual but that's it.

And, yes, he does have excellent combos out of down-throw, but his rather laggy aerials and awkward projectile put him at a sour spot when approaching to actually get them. His lack of solid kill options is also pretty harmful, and the lack of a notorious kill throw is also bad. Being a lightweight is also a double-edged sword in Smash: you're hard to combo, but you need less combos to be in kill range. Fire also helps him escape combos, though. Dair is good at edgeguarding, but mostly it's potentially useless against the best recoveries in the game - with the top tiers having stuff like teleports (Sheik), extremely dangerous hitboxes (Ness), windboxes (DK), Super Armor (Yoshi), lots of speed (ZSS's tether recovery, Luigi Up-B, and Mario Up-B are good examples), it ends up being pretty situational, not counting characters like Rosalina can just shrug it off because their recovery's just too good.

Tl;dr: I feel he's too busy playing The Last Airbender to fix his gimmick-based play and lack of solid approaches and kill options. His position in this tier list is not unwarranted, but is subject to (slight) change if really good people appear.
Good points, but some notes:

TL;DR version: Don't use Chef to approach, his aerials are not that bad for approaches, and you underestimate his edeguarding prowess.

Chef is NOT an approach option in the slightest. Approaching is one of his "just OK" points because he has a decent dash attack that sets up followups in conjunction with his feared grab, which gets a comparatively large range-up from boost grabbing. Chef is a mixup with bair/fair to /b-reverse/wavebouce and maintain pressure on airborne opponents. Chef is only properly used when you have the definite advantage.

Laggy aerials are a problem for him, but fair is actually about on safe on shield as Yoshi's if sweetspotted and properly retreated. Not to mention that nair and bair and, to say the least, unpredictable on sheild. Generally you should only approach with aerials at higher percents to pop the opponent up or off the stage.

Fire is an OK combo escape option because of his high aerial mobility. You trade positional advantage for not getting Usmashed by Fox after his double jab.

Finally, when people say Mr. G&W is a good edgeguarder, dair is the least of his gimping options. It's alright against linear recoveries, but he has waaaay better options. Bair is one of the nastiest edgeguarding disjointed hitboxes and one of the most difficult moves in the game to tech and not get stage spiked. Nair, if you fastfall it, can drag the opponent downwards. G&W falls further but he can recover. It also sets up what is by far his best gimping option: Fire

Airdoged offstage, high percent kills, low percent situation reset. Linear recovery under the stage or got dragged down by nair? Hope you've got good reflexes, you're about to get a real quick stage spike if you don't tech. Just trying to get to the ledge and right next to G&W? Hope that windbox isn't too much trouble, sucker.
 
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