Swanky's Sideshow: Diddy Kong Video Arkive and Kritique Thread

[GuruKid]

Because DKC3 could use some love, even if Diddy wasn't featured in it!

Like most other character video threads, the goal of this thread is to organize Diddy 2.5 footage while offering peer review from (who else?) members of the Kong Kommunity.

To not put any specific person on the spot unwillingly, I'll incorporate footage to the OP on a volunteer-only basis, so please submit your link to the Youtube video or Twitch stream log directly on this thread to have it featured on the OP. Lastly, please post the date of the footage as well as the tournament the match(es) took place if it was a tournament set. Thanks.

Players List

• abcool
• Dazrin
• Disqo_Bunny
• hamyojo
• Master WGS
• No1Special
• SpiderMad

[collapse=abcool]
March 17, 2013
Vs Rudra (Link)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Dazrin]
January 3rd, 2013
Stream Archive with Dust and SinisterB
[/collapse]

[collapse=Disqo_Bunny]
January 30th, 2013
Vs Awestin (Ness)

March 2nd, 2013 (Bowser's Revenge 7)
Vs Bwett (Squirtle)
Vs Dakpo (G&W)
Vs Oracle (ROB)

March 9th, 2013 (HOBO 39)
Vs Sethlon (Marth)
With Sethlon (Sonic) Vs Xeven (Pit) and Dakpo (G&W)
[/collapse]

[collapse=hamyojo]
December 30th, 2012
Vs ZachAttax64 (Marth)
[/collapse]

[collapse=No1Special]
January 15th, 2013
Vs Archangel (Pit)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Master WGS]
January 4th, 2013
Vs BuckOhFive (Ness)
Vs Roooster (Wolf)
Vs Roooster (Wolf) 2
Vs BuckOhFive (DK)

January 7th, 2013
Vs Rooster (ROB)
[/collapse]

[collapse=SpiderMad]
February 7th, 2013
Vs ??? (Lucas) 1
Vs ??? (Lucas) 2
Vs ??? (Lucas) 3
[/collapse]

[collapse=Vro]
March 7th 2013
Vs Kirk (Bowser)
Vs Kels (Fox)
Vs MDZ (Falco)
Vs Oro (ZSS)

 

[Master WGS]

Help me, I'm really bad. All matches from January 4th.

Vs Ness

Vs Wolf
Vs Wolf 2

 

[hamyojo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3A1OCTYEJM&feature=youtu.be
Here's some of vs Marth from dec 30th.
I swear I'm better than this now ;-;
Hopefully more soon.

 

[`dazrin]

bunch of stuff from my latest archives on http://www.twitch.tv/dazee_/b/353586639

I doubt anyone is interested in those, but I'll record more "serious" stuff in the future.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Swanky already has a thread! Guru you biter!

 

[Master WGS]

Vs BuckOhFive (DK), January 4th, 2013

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I think you have a solid understanding of what you want to happen, WGS. It's just that youre not abusing the ability diddy has to make players lose their handle on the match.

You need more dthrow. The fthrow and bthrow are still great, and you got a solid *** kill from it once, but dthrow is a great tech chase/combo opportunity.

You can combo out of side B by jumping and doing an aerial depending on DI and percent. Usually it's uair or fair.

Random nairs are a great thing to throw out. More often than not, the lasting hotbox connects for a combo of one or two hits depending on percent.

Dont side B when your right next to someone. SH nair or upsmash can connect sometimes. Or better yet, just turn around and grab if you can. Wavedash or foxtrot away to side B if you really want to get em.

Too many side Bs can get predictable and get your monkey in trouble. It's a great move, but it's not the answer to everything.

UpB. Pls. It kills. It combos. OoS is funny. It edge guards. It's explosive. Do it.

And finally.

Pull freaking bananas. If you're not comboing or setting up for a combo or doing anything important with your life, pull nana one. If you want, pull the other. You don't even have to use them for long, just get them on the field and lock down some space.

My videos to come soon.

 

[Master WGS]

Thanks Disqo. I'll have a couple more vids to post in a day or two (slow internet) that were recorded before I read your input. However, I did try to involve more bananas, so hopefully you'll see the fruits

Spoiler

I am the funniest person alive.

of my effort.

 

[tripwire]

Also I recommend Glide tossing OoS.

 

[Master WGS]

I try to go for it too much, but here's me showing off how perfect I think Diddy's double jump is for perfect wavelanding platforms on PS2 during an actual match.

Master WGS vs Roooster (ROB) January 7th

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Also I recommend Glide tossing OoS.

Glide toss OoS is fraudulent due to the way the c stick behaves. Input to fast, and diddy will roll or do nothing. Too slow means you miss your opportunity

 

[Brikmaethor]

Glide toss OoS is fraudulent due to the way the c stick behaves. Input to fast, and diddy will roll or do nothing. Too slow means you miss your opportunity

Strict timing shouldn't affect the validity of an option, should it?

Unless the window for input is inconsistent, of course, bit I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[tripwire]

Glide toss OoS is fraudulent due to the way the c stick behaves. Input to fast, and diddy will roll or do nothing. Too slow means you miss your opportunity

I've yet to have a problem with it. Too fast/ Too slow, so there is a timing in the middle. Either way I really don't mess it up often at all.

@WGS. I feel like you should use more nanna play(plus peanut shots) or toss your two out when you you kill someone and hold one so you can try to set up for the next stock. Also remember when on Green hill Zone, Diddy has a wall jump/cling you can use to recover (which you used a few times anyway). When in doubt and they are high up throw your one nanna up and and take out a new one.

 

[SpiderMad]

Strict timing shouldn't affect the validity of an option, should it?

Unless the window for input is inconsistent, of course, bit I don't believe that to be the case.

No I believe it kind of does, and BuckohFive has about a dozen posts about that concerning DACUS on Smashmods. He talked about how DACUS was hard and unreliable to the point that if you mess up you might perform a dash attack which is very different than an up-smash which you want: or was it that he didn't like you would grab..I forget, hey where is he on smashboards anyways? Eh he's PMBR now so he probably hushens his thoughts anyhow

 

[Master WGS]

His old account on here was Buttcrust, I think.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I'm not saying it's fraudulent because of strict timing. OoS glide toss is a great option, but comes with the higher risk of you doing extremely punishable things if your toss doesn't happen.

Of course, glide tossing with the A button is possible too, but since bananas don't cause trips on throw hits, just throwing the banana is a valid option. Unless you're hit from behind, then you'd have to run the risk of Csticking for your throw, or choose a different option, and Diddys up close options are far batter and less situational than a banana hit.

Regarding Dacus, it's not unreliable. Just because it takes practice doesn't mean it's bad or an invalid option. You as the player should be able to DACUS without messing up, or find a different option, similar to what I just said regarding glide tossing OoS.

This should be in general or tactical discussion anyway. Long post is long.

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knrmCjBjoB0

Diddy vs Fox

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knrmCjBjoB0

Diddy vs Fox

I like this guy

 

[Archangel]

He's messed around with diddy alot more since we recorded these. Diddy is just...such a homosexual monkey but he's cool I guess. I smell a nerf bat though.

 

[C!Z]

My Diddy >

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Diddys gonna get the ban hammer

 

[SpiderMad]

He's messed around with diddy alot more since we recorded these. Diddy is just...such a homosexual monkey but he's cool I guess. I smell a nerf bat though.

The tweak mallet

I hope he doesn't though, but my hope wasn't enough to save Ike.

So far we have You, Hamyojo, MasterWGS, and Leffen: all saying they smell nerfs. Leffen's reason was.. okay the sound was really low on the stream so all I saw him say is he's got metagame or something and then he just picked up and threw a banana, so who knows what he meant. Then with YOU three guys I don't know specifics you're referring to besides WGS who said he has "too many tools than he needs", but he sucks and stuff since he's not coming to SCSYN so I'm wondering what you guys think?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

WGS is a smart guy.

But really, if diddy does get nerfed, it'll be because he's too highly rewarded for extremely simple input in situations. Anything and everything diddy does leads into a potential stock take, and its waaaayyyy to easy to combo. Nair nair nair all day and you get people in that one spot thatll almost always kill em or gimp em. There's no meta game, there is banana and nair and side B. That's it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why is side-b so good and what do u do after it (nvm you said jump and fair/up-air) , are you throwing out a bunch of Auto-cancel Nairs or just FFalling them (and aren't the hitboxes not expansive enough to make it all that safe of a move)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Whatever Diddy does, Fox probably does better, and he'll never get nerfed. So why should Diddy?

 

[ELI-mination]

You know...
despite all the "Diddy is too easy and broken" crap I hear, I've yet to see a single good Diddy Kong player that isn't me or Gurukid.

Cold. Hard. Truth.

 

[Player-1]

I got 2nd at a tourney with diddy


bess diddy?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Lol P1.

Its difficult for me to get replays Cuz the only person with the set up is sethlon.

Fox did get nerfed, he can't upthrow to up air anymore.

Nair isn't that safe on shield, true. But why would you ever pressure a shield with nair if you have bananas, peanuts, and wave dash foxtrot and dash dance mind games? As diddy, you should more often than not be baiting the other person to panic and throw out something or stay in their shield too long.

 

[GHNeko]

Fox did get nerfed, he can't upthrow to up air anymore

...






Do you honestly believe that? That we would really remove something like that from Fox? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


I hope you realize, you're wrong.

 

[SpiderMad]

( ͡o _ʖ ͡o)

 

[Player-1]

i mean, i only lost to reflex who kinda won apex 2013's pm tournament

 

[hamyojo]

Diddy isn't any more broken than Fox or Falco, so it's very possible he wont need to be nerfed, but there are issues with him.

I feel like Diddy's just a little too strong in different parts of his design. Like, for example, his Barrel Blast. It's not broken, but the fact that if you charge it for the maximum time, then hit with it at the very last frame the hitbox is active (after like a full second of flying) it'll still do 19% isn't quite right. I think that if the move gets weaker over time it'll make much more sense and adding damage with the last second hit wont feel so fraudulent. On the aspect of the massive KB and the meteor hit and such, I don't think that's broken or anything, even if I can tech chase with it and if I miss I can just turn away and land on stage virtually lag less if I remember correctly. The move could use more landing lag when you land on stage with it. As for the recovery, I'm not sure what to say. Diddy's recovery with his side b coupled with a jump, an AGT, and a Barrel Blast is one of the best ones in the game. It's predictable, but it goes hella far for how safe it is, especially when you have that forever 19% hitbox. If a character doesn't have a disjointed hitbox you're super safe just flying at them and landing on stage which you can follow up with whatever you want, and even more when it hits.

Diddy's side b is such an odd move to balance and it's difficult to figure out if it's broken or not. The fact that it's a grab hitbox makes it an amazing move and you can bring out a normal hitbox if you want to. Against a Sonic or Squirtle it can stop them dead in their tracks for spinning or withdrawing. It's not OP, it can be avoided, but it's crazy good in a few matchups and alone could be successfully used for a lot of the game.

These two moves are absolutely amazing, and what bugs me about them is that Diddy should be about stage control with 'naners, and spacing with peanuts. Both the 'naners and peanuts are still great, but once you really learn the character I feel like 'naners don't fit into a more aggressive side b and Barrel Blast based-Kong that he seems like he's currently designed around. I'm not one to use items or projectiles, and I've been trying to put 'naners and peanuts in my game, but I just don't need to because his others moves overshadow the old almost as good (to me, at least) play style.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At4vnhJSluy_dFgwMm5wNEVoTEVGLXdFcVhNVkNPSEE#gid=0
Looking over his moves they seem to do more damage than a character that's supposedly set around stage control.

He feels like two characters fighting to be one and he ends up with the good aspects of both, and that's what makes him feel a little OP to me.

 

[Master WGS]

Let it be known I've never suggested that Diddy is near the stupid level of Falco or Fox.

He's just stupid. Not crazy stupid like those two, but stupid.

But, as Mad pointed out, I suck pretty bad so my opinion is invalid. Eli's the best and can't be wrong ever, so listen to him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy's still no Fox, so he doesn't need nerfing. What now? You want to nerf characters that have even a slight chance against spacies??

Gratz P1 on your 2nd placement though.

 

[ELI-mination]

Guess what? The fact that people would complain about Diddy Kong with nothing to show for it actually matters.

Mad once said (it's in my sig) that spamming up-b with Diddy on wifi was working so it supported his argument. That IS invalid.

MGS once said that he picked Diddy up for the first time and did really well against his friends. That, too, is invalid. You mean to tell me you picked up a new character within a month of release and people didn't know how to fight him!? Blasphemy.

hamyoyo, Diddy's side-b is very risky to throw out there if you don't know what you're doing. Any move that has a certain "path" that it travels 100% of the time is easily telegraphed and dealt with, so it's not like it can just be thrown out. (I'm not saying that you said it can just be thrown out. I'm just mentioning this.) It's important to keep that in mind, imo. It's a good design choice to give characters an interesting and unique moveset without any spammable janky stuff, which I don't see Diddy possessing. The way people mention his up-b being spammable is kind of like people mentioning something like... idk... Ness' PK Fire being spammable. Sure you can keep throwing out the move and people who don't know what to do about it will fall for it. But see how far that gets you.

I'm getting a bit sick about the whole defense regarding skill level. I'm not ever saying that someone being good = someone being correct. Nor am I saying someone being bad = someone being wrong. But you have to realize that there are many scenarios in which less skilled players will fail to punish something properly and inevitably, irrationally, and ignorantly conclude that the move they failed to punish is "un-punishable" or "OP". This is a problem and it really needs to be pointed out.

Also hamyoyo, I do believe that Diddy's bananas are an integral part of his game and can be utilized to deal with many aspects of certain MU's. I also feel like this is a bit unexplored. I agree with you that it comes down to playstyle. And it should come down to playstyle, so that's a good thing.

 

[hamyojo]

I agree that people making different playstyles for characters is cool, but what I meant to say with that, is, uh, let me explain it through the word "flavor."
Every character in the game has it's flavor, it makes you feel a certain way, it allows you to taste the feel of different moves and the movements patterns that go with it. Sometimes a character, take Fox, for example, can have a lot of different flavors, but each one seems to have a clear direction it wants to go. Like a defensive Fox vs. and offensive Fox, they both have plenty of similarities, and will often use Shine's, up throw up air, and things of that nature. The differences could be the use of lasers and how one Fox shield pressures vs the other, for example. Playing both of these Fox's leaves a different taste in your mouth and the both have their own flavors. However, maybe you like certain parts of each flavor and you want to take out parts you don't like, and what comes out is a more balanced flavor and a more tasteful Fox. It's sour with its aggressive nair shines on shields, and closes in the space quickly with the sweet taste of cherry lasers to build up damage added in the satisfyingly salty up throw up air to finish off a combo.

I feel like Diddy's 'naners and peanuts are more bitter than they should be compared to the massive amounts of flavor you can throw in with rolling off of platforms with your dash attack to flying off stage with your side b to get that gimp. I'm no expert on 'naners or peanuts, but whether it's my inexperience or play style (of course it could definitely be either) I feel like they're completely overshadowed by other moves.

I don't think Diddy's OP, I really don't, but there are adjustments I think could be made to at least give him a bit more direction. I don't want a linear character you HAVE to play a certain way, no one wants that. But a lot of things just don't make sense to me about him design wise. I want to know if I should be tasting 'naners or the smell of smoke left behind from the fun and explosive Barrel Blast.

The main reason I'm whining is because I feel he could be improved in parts to give him some direction, but please understand I don't want him to be stuck on a set path, I just feel there are paths there that shouldn't be so wide and easy to cross, and so many of them So far he seems to be the Dr Pepper of Smash with 23 different flavors, but with a few flavors that shine way beyond the rest.

But hey, this is just me whining and trying my best to improve P:M.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Dude don't get me wrong. I just say diddys broken Cuz I played em in brawl, and its a hell of a lot more work you put in to be successful with him in that game. Compared to PM, diddy feels so easy to just pick up and start nairing.


But that's melee for ya! Woohoo!

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

...






Do you honestly believe that? That we would really remove something like that from Fox? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


I hope you realize, you're wrong.

2.5 B baby. Its there, try it.

Double post Cuz mobile sucks.

 

[GHNeko]

I was just Uthrow > Uairing a friend who plays Melee and P:M exclusively last night.

And this past weekend.

Against players who are significantly better than me lol.

 

[Master WGS]

Eli, I have immense respect for you as both a person and player, I just fear you're dismissing my concerns as a crazy knee-jerk reaction to a character I'm not used to.

Regardless of how wrong I likely am, I just want to be clear that my opinion isn't a snap judgment - it's based off of months of playtesting with BuckOhFive and plenty of other players. We have a relative consensus on Diddy (with me having the most extreme opinion, probably). We're not completely inept, and we're not these awful players I think you think we are.

However, since I don't consider this the thread to have my Diddy argument, I'll drop it. This thread is for videos and the discussion of them, not my opinions on Project M's balance model.

That, and it's too early to give definitive proof for either argument (as far as tournament results), so it's probably moot anyway. Just voicing concerns early so I look like a smart guy when I'm right.