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Surpassing the Limits: Should Cloud Be Banned in Doubles?

What Should be done about Cloud in Doubles?


  • Total voters
    59

Funbot28

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Approved by ぱみゅ


Hello everyone, the Smash 4 community has been been up and arms about a couple of topics recently that have many players heated when these topics come up. Whether it be discussing how broken Bayonetta is in singles to complaining about the legality of Lylat due to the jank it always seems to bring. However, one topic that always seems to re-surge for discussion is the idea of Cloud's potency in Doubles, and whether or not his inclusion is healthy for the metagame as a whole.

Many deem Cloud to be too overpowered in the Doubles metagame due to his Limit moves being extremely effective in finishing off stocks after a teammate can help place the enemy in the right position. Whether it be Limit Cross Slash or Finishing Touch, both these moves can cover many situations and work great in tandem with a various amount of characters throw combos. The doubles metagame also aids Cloud in his recovery weakness as a good teammate can usually save him while offstage if they get a chance to, prolonging his sustainability.

This has started to become more of an issue as of late as many top players are coming to realize how necessary the inclusion of Cloud is required to be successful in the doubles metagame. This is evident as we see many top players who usually do not play Cloud (ie: Ally, Nairo, Mistake, Larry Lurr, etc...) switch to Cloud in order to have a chance to win. This has become so potent that even double Cloud teams have started to dominate the top 8 placings, with the most notable example being MKLeo and Komorokiri. The pair that won Shine 2017 Doubles without dropping a game with double Cloud.

Many people are advocating for either a 1 limit Cloud clause (basically allowing only 1 Cloud being placed on a team), or just a full out ban of the character from the format as a whole in order to prevent the format from dying (since entrants and viewership have both declined over time) The Spanish Smash community has tested a temporary ban of the character in one of their weeklies and from what I heard many players had enjoyed the experience without the big sword wielding threat in the metagame.

https://twitter.com/HikotsiaIII/status/899927297339387904

What are your thoughts, should Cloud be banned in Doubles? Should there be a 1 Cloud limit clause? Or do you just feel that nothing should change and we should just leave the format alone, leave your thoughts in this thread.

Note: Please note that this thread will be conducted under heavy moderation. Meaning that insufficient posts that do not add any healthy points to the discussion and useless one liners will be deleted and possibly led to infractions. Please remain civil.

 
Last edited:

Frihetsanka

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This is a multifaceted issue. In order to answer the question, we must ask ourselves what it takes to ban a character from a game. The point of this point is not to argue either way, but to discuss what it means to ban Cloud.

Let us assume the following: If Cloud is not banned, viewership will drop by 30% over 1 year, entrants will drop by 20%, and the amount of character variety will be limited. If Cloud is banned, viewership will increase by 20%, entrants will increase by 10%, and there will be much more character variety. If these claims are true, then it might seem obvious that Cloud should be banned in doubles. Even then, some would argue that we do not ban characters based on things such as entrants and viewership. That is a pretty good point. Imagine if there were a character X that most people found boring to watch. This character might be a mid tier character, with moderate use. Even then, the existence of this character would reduce the viewership and entrants by a non-insignificant amount. Banning the character would increase both viewership and entrants to doubles tournaments by a non-insignificant amount. Should it be done? I don't think so, because it would open the gate for many other bans that might be less justified, and, frankly, banning a character because they're "annoying" or "not fun to watch" sets a dangerous precedent.

In order to ban a character, I believe that at least one of the following criteria should be fulfilled: 1: The character is overcentralizing and banning it wouldn't lead to another character being as overcentralizing. 2: The character is broken in an overpowered way. 3: The character is broken for some other reason, such as due to bugs or incredibly poor design.

What about Cloud in doubles? Criterion 1 seems fairly likely: Cloud is somewhat overcentralizing right now (although less so than Fox in Melee and Meta Knight in Brawl), and I do not believe that banning him in doubles would lead to another character being nearly as dominant. Thus, one could easily argue that Cloud should be banned based on criterion 1.

Criterion 2 can easily be argued for, as well. Cloud, in doubles, is easily the best character in the game, and by picking him you likely greatly increase your chances of winning. He is certainly overpowered, although whether or not he is broken is up for debate.

Criterion 3 does not apply to Cloud. Cloud's design doesn't break doubles, and no game-shattering bugs have been discovered.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Question, are we allowed to compare this with let's say Fox in Melee where he clearly has a grip on the doubles metagame there.

If so and this is for smash in general, is doubles inheritly less balanced than singles? Given data and my personal experience I would say yes to that.

If so, is this an overreaction to Cloud or do top players agree he is a large problem?
 

Zerp

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Does anyone know of a reliable source for Melee and/or Brawl doubles stats we can use for comparisons sake? I think it would be very useful for all sides here if we all could see just how close or far Cloud is from Fox and Meta Knight in terms of results.


Also, here's some food for thought: While :metaknight: and :foxmelee: are perceived to be as strong as/stronger than :4cloud2: in their respective doubles metas, Smash 4 is considered to be a more balanced game than previous installments and the Smash 4 community seems to place a higher value on balance than most people did in previous installments, so even those two aren't deemed ban-worthy in there own metas, should we tolerate a character as centralizing/close to as centralizing as those two in our meta?
 

Tizio Random

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In my opinion, Cloud should be completely banned from doubles. While double Cloud is bonkers, teams like Sheik/Cloud, Mario/Cloud and Bayo/Cloud are still overpowered.

Simply put, the character is busted in this format for many reasons. First, let's go over the many advantages he gives to the team compared to almost all the rest of the cast:
  • Finishing Touch is bar none the best move in doubles. Can kill as early as 40%, has very good range and can be confirmed from any of your ally's throw. Even when limit is not present Cloud smashes and aerials can do the job but there's absolutely no reason for him not to have limit.
  • Cloud's range and mobility put the opponents in terrible situations quickly and can combo easily from any situation (think of moves like nair and bair). Doubles are more oriented on the space control than singles already are because you have way less space to work with.
  • Thanks to his weight and limit camping, which is buffed in this format because your teammate can simply protect you while doing it, Cloud can even stock tank, covering both incredibly powerful offensive options and defensive ones.
  • On top of everything I already said, Cloud is an easy character to play compared to a great chunk of the cast. Everyone can pick him only for doubles and have success. This causes oversaturation quickly because there's no risk and amazing reward for playing him instead of your main character.
What about his weaknesses? Well, his already few weaknesses are basically non-existant in doubles:
  • His "bad" recovery is largely mitigated by the lack of major edgeguarding in doubles considering that a teammate can simply punish your opponent for trying to stop you from get back to stage. Also, your teammate can save you if you have trouble returning.
  • Contrary to singles, where his throws are mainly for positioning and sometimes can works with DI mixups, here they are really good because of their low KBG giving him access to consistent grab followups with his team mate.
I want also to add that Cloud invalidates many, many characters of their niche to the point the only way of beating him is to pick him yourself.
Characters like Jigglypuff and Wario, who have great potential in doubles, have discount Finishing Touches in rest and waft, Ike and Shulk don't have his mobility and killing power and other characters simply have really bad match-ups with him (this last point is also true for singles obviously, but having to deal with a buffed Cloud + another character exacerbate the problem even further).

Cloud is also dominating the doubles meta with at least 3 teams in Top 8 having one and winning basically every event. I really think a meta without him will be way healthier. Doubles already are dying because of his constant presence, don't let him take over them completely.
 

Lord Dio

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So that region of Spain has already had a doubles tournament. Was it without double cloud, or a complete cloud ban?
Further, what were the results of that tournament, character-wise?
 

Illusion.

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What were the results of that Spanish doubles tournament that banned Cloud?
 

Nah

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The results of the Spanish doubles tournament that the above people are mentioning was this:

1. Pepo
/ Pefo

2. AndresFN
/ THROWRYUKEN

3. Kenko
/ Jugador X

4. Shancks
/ Jamiro

5. Fhyr Rain
/ RaKIU

5. Shenryu Ω
/ NNDANNY

7. Lucimo
/ Rei

7. Dejime
/ Misilman07


It apparently only had 14 entrants btw, and iirc Cloud in general was banned, not double Cloud teams.
http://smashbrosspain.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=9858
 

Lord Dio

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Not sure if only 14 entrants due to a local, or due to people wanting to play cloud.
But it makes me wonder how things would go with a no double cloud teams.......
Worth noting imo:
The winning team had a top tier combo, with one being the best character in singles who is also common in doubles and iirc according to that "who's won how many doubles tourneys" chart, has won multiple doubles tournaments.
Multiple two of a character teams (double ryu, double puff)
also notable si that another player used puff. These results as a whole are pretty different from what we see at big events, likely due to lack of participation (it is a local after all).
Imo there's not a lot to say, and it's difficult to conclude whether or not this is a good idea because of all that character variation. If we could see this at a big event, conclusions would be easier to come to.
 

Lord Dio

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It's time we bring this one back, considering some doubles discussion kinda spilled over into the tier list discussion thread.
The rants of top players of banning cloud is back, by zero, manny, ally, and others, but this time......
VoiD is quitting doubles play. He doesn't see it as fun anymore. He didn't say it was specifically because of cloud (rather a few things apparently), but since I'm posting here, you know it's because people started complaining about Dubz Cloud.
 

Illusion.

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Mexico City recently banned Cloud in doubles for a whole month. Anyone know how the results have been since then?
 

Scot B

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I think at the very least double cloud should be banned. Only because of how ridiculous his combo and kill confirms are with himself. It requires little to no practice to play cloud in dubs with another cloud. I've seen it all too many times where a great team will get upset by double cloud, and most of the time the winning team barely teams with each other.
 

Lord Dio

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I too would like to know full results for Mexico City's ban, since that's a longer ban in a much larger area where conclusions can be better made.
 

ぱみゅ

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It's just one city that has the ban though. However if more top players quit could we see this as a trend?
That one city happens to have MK Leo, Javi and Levi often attending, so, the gathered data might be worth something.
:196:
 
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