[Superior Tactics] ; Deity-Level Robin Guide

[Zareidriel]

Zareidriel submitted a new guide:

[Superior Tactics] ; Deity-Level Robin Guide - A good tactician has nothing to fear.

Hi! I'm Zareidriel. Welcome to my Robin guide. I think Robin is a blast to play, so I made this guide in order to spread Robin knowledge in the hopes that other people come to love her as well.

Read more about this guide...

To do:

Schema 3, phases 11-15, 18.

Delaying discarded equipment to make equipment discard at a different time / into enemy.

Offstage Sbair stagespike -> Elwind

RAR'd nair -> (sbair?)

Sitting on Thoron (how long etc)

Specific Elwind uses

Ftilt/Fsmash item in hand

Importance of b-reverses

Uses for wind jab

Shield breaking sequences

Ceiling heights

Secret technique: "Zarei Drill"

Thoron vs Link

Nosferatu b-reverse, Nosferatu from ledge

Chart of what projectiles are subsumed etc

What the hell is up with Elthunder

 

[Laggalot101]

I've looked at your guide moderately quickly (I haven't carefully read it all), but I did notice some things that I want to point out or give my opinion on.

Robin is the slowest runner (tied with Jigglypuff), not the slowest walker, I'm quite sure. I don't know off the top of my head who is the slowest walker, though.

I see you refer to Levin aerials as, say, SU-air. I personally prefer LU-air as in Levin Up-air. Not a complaint, but I feel it's worth mentioning either way. Personally, I believe that is also more consistent, as you do refer to grounded Levin Smashes as, well, Levin smashes.

Using fire jab is pretty easy, I find. If you hold the attack button when you jab instead of pressing it several times, assuming you hit (regardless of shield), Robin will automatically use his next jab attack and end with fire rather than wind. Might be worth mentioning in your guide.

Down-throw does not combo, just saying. You may be able to predict a double jump or air dodge after the D-throw to land a Levin aerial, but a follow-up can always be escaped.

I don't think you make it clear enough why it's not always a good idea to extend Thoron, because I'm pretty sure you didn't clearly state it also extends endlag, which means a whiff is more punishable. Perhaps consider changing your wording.

I don't believe you mentioned this, but when catching your discarded items, if you press the grab button instead of the shield button, you sometimes catch the item without the airdodge animation, which may be beneficial in many cases (for one, I believe an airdodge causes you to be unable to alter your aerial momentum for its duration).

Having mentioned all this, your guide does look pretty good as far as I can tell.

 

[Demonstormkill]

Really liking the guide. I've gotta step up my Nosferatu game.

A few things you could mention:

- Tilting an aerial when the levin sword is out produces the levin sword. Any sword attack leaves the corresponding sword equipped, which becomes the default for aerial tilts.

- Roll cancel grab is very good for Robin, extending grab range significantly.

- Levin sword can be recharged faster by using smashes while it's gone. Smashed bronze aerials count towards this recharge! Spamming smash aerials for the duration seems to shave off at least 2 seconds, bringing LS cooldown time down to about 8 sec.

- Discarding equipment will be delayed by any immediately subsequent use of equipment (not sure if this is true for the sword, but casting any spell buffered after the last use of another item will delay the discard until the queue of spells is finished.) One use of this is that you can ledge drop -> jump + last charge arcfire/arcthunder -> buffer elwind -> catch ledge (tome pops) -> back jump + Z to catch. It's potentially dangerous but if you hit or keep them away with the spell you should be safe to take the tome. This is obviously a useful skill to have for catching elwind tomes, too. Note: For some reason nothing buffers off of aerial Nosferatu.

- Offstage LSBair stagespikes and if sourspotted hit late can lead into jump -> elwind spike on some characters, particularly heavies. This is experimental and may not yet belong in your guide, though.

 

[Laggalot101]

Really liking the guide. I've gotta step up my Nosferatu game.

- Levin sword can be recharged faster by using smashes while it's gone. Smashed bronze aerials count towards this recharge! Spamming smash aerials for the duration seems to shave off at least 2 seconds, bringing LS cooldown time down to about 8 sec.

I just tried this out for a bit. I'm not seeing any difference. Are you absolutely sure about this one? I'm fairly certain that the Levin Sword always recharges this quickly. I tried out both spamming Smashes and just sitting there waiting for the Levin Sword to recharge, but as far as I can tell, the time it takes is identical.

 

[Zareidriel]

I really appreciate the reviews, corrections, and new information! I will definitely be adding everything you guys mention (once I double check its legitimacy of course). This is why I made this Robin guide; to bring our knowledge together. Robin is just too f$#%ing complicated for any one person to solve on their own.

But I'm getting on a plane and going to my parents' house tonight, so it's gonna have to wait for a couple days. Thanks again!

 

[Demonstormkill]

I just tried this out for a bit. I'm not seeing any difference. Are you absolutely sure about this one? I'm fairly certain that the Levin Sword always recharges this quickly. I tried out both spamming Smashes and just sitting there waiting for the Levin Sword to recharge, but as far as I can tell, the time it takes is identical.

Did you time it? Because I did, and the difference was around 2 seconds. It can be hard to notice the difference without doing so. Also, because aerials can be done more quickly than grounded smashes, they result in a greater reduction in LS cooldown.

Look, it's right there in the Wii U 'Tips': http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U)

 

[Laggalot101]

Oh, well if its among the tips, I suppose it must be true. I suppose counting in my head isn't very reliable. I should know better.

I wonder if this is somehow, in some way possible with the tomes as well... Seems unlikely, though. Looking through the tips, I see that KO'ing opponents shortens the wait, but obviously, that's not very reliable.

 

[nitr0monkey]

Just saying, there is a tip that says Wario can toss his broken Wario Bike parts but it's not actually true. Levin Sword normally takes 8 seconds to recharge, I'll see if doing smashes even makes a difference.

Edit: It took around 5 seconds with spamming bair, not sure if it's worth it unless you happened to KO someone with the last use. You'd be better off charging the thunder tome imo.

 

[Demonstormkill]

Just saying, there is a tip that says Wario can toss his broken Wario Bike parts but it's not actually true. Levin Sword normally takes 8 seconds to recharge, I'll see if doing smashes even makes a difference.

Edit: It took around 5 seconds with spamming bair, not sure if it's worth it unless you happened to KO someone with the last use. You'd be better off charging the thunder tome imo.

This is a thread where we compile data about Robin. We can discuss the viability of the mechanics as well, but I believe it's important to know what they are. The Levin Sword indeed takes 10 seconds to recharge normally. I've already tested this myself. Note that KOs reduce the CD by about 3 seconds, and are the only way to account for a ~5 second cooldown.

 

[Zareidriel]

I've done the first batch of reworks based on your guys' comments, and added some other stuff. First up is Laggalot:

-You're right about the running vs walking, I forget where I read the opposite somewhere, but now I've fixed the pros/cons and we have have the rankings in The Numbers.

-Having consistent notation is nice, the only reason I have them separate is because I like the sound of Sfair, Sbair, Snair, Supair etc on the tongue, where Lfair, Lbair etc doesn't have quite the same smoothness of pronunciation. But it's all a matter of personal preference.

-I added the "hold down" method, thanks for that. When I mean it's difficult though, I don't mean it's difficult to do just once, I mean it's difficult to use the Fire jab every time you mean to. Even today I'll use a couple Wind ones per match on accident.

-When I said "combo" I guess I didn't mean a "real combo". Changed wording.

-Changed wording on extended Thoron.

-I believe the same effect happens when you air dodge properly as well, there's no animation; all I have with me at the moment is a 3DS though, so I'm going to do some more testing on catching with air dodge vs grab in the future.

Thanks for the input Laggalot! I appreciate any help I can get. Going with the next batch of suggestions soon. Possibly a double or triple-post is imminent.

 

[Zareidriel]

Next some tips from Ultimastrike:

-He suggested in PM that I change the brown color of Bronze Sword, etc, so I moved it up in lightness to Bronze Sword and it looks much easier to read.

-In his review he dislikes the colors and the Nosferatu section; however I think the colors add a lot of the ZAZZ and readability of the guide as opposed to a wall of boring-ass white. Okay so the colors might be a little overboard, but I don't think it contributes negatively to the readability enough for me to change it. Except the Equipment section, I might tone them down a little there. The Nosferatu section is just me trolling, so that's there to stay no matter how many 1-star reviews I get. Jajajaja

Though I think your review was unfair, perhaps on account of Ultimastrike having a rival Robin guide, your advice is appreciated as anyone else's!

Some great advice from Demonstormkill:

-Your first point is very interesting and true! Added to the Levin/Bronze section.

-I did not even know Roll-Canceled Grabs were a real thing, and Robin's is among the best. Added to the new Advanced Techniques section.

-I was aware of this, but I was going to wait until more concrete information is available. However, it may be a good idea to spam Upairs and Fairs to get the Levin Sword back faster in some cases, or against certain enemies, so I've added it. It seems like, with proper SHFFing you can get the Levin Sword back in 6-7 seconds rather than 10.

-The last two things do have a place in this guide, as they are significant and very interesting, but I'm not sure how I'm going to implement them yet.

Much thanks to DSK for the great info!

Oh, everyone that contributes significantly to the guide will get their name in the credits. Which currently includes Laggalot and DSK.

 

[GiG0L0]

Did you also know that the usage of the type of Jab 3 that is used, also shares the same amount of units with El Fire and El Wind. You can do each the same amount of times as the skill itself.

 

[Laggalot101]

A very quick check tells me the guide does mention this

 

[Kisatamura]

I have a small tip with Robin's nair. Since nair consists of two strikes, you can RAR this and use it to approach your opponent. It's a good way to confuse opponents unless they know Robin's moves since the last attack of nair hits behind Robin so that when you RAR it'll hit the opponent.

 

[Zareidriel]

That does sound like an interesting style of approach, but praytell, what does RAR stand for? And furthermore, does anyone know of a knowledgebank or thread of Smash acronyms and jargon?

 

[Kisatamura]

Reverse aerial rush, it's an old technique from Brawl. Basically it lets you use back airs when running forward. But since Robin's nair hits in front and back, this could be a good way to mixup approaches.

 

[Zareidriel]

Ah! I see. I've actually been doing those purely out of reflex without knowing they had a name (I used to play Ike in Brawl and being able to do a RAR on command is practically mandatory if you want to beat anyone), exclusively for Sbairs though. I'll definitely try it with the Nair and put that tip into the guide, thanks =]

 

[KeyDrop]

I read it all except for the character specific part, it's very good, I agree with alot of stuff you say that is usually forgotten, like throwing the tomes and levin sword once their done, though I think you should add that catching the used items should not be made a priority, you should catch them only if it's safe, also usually if I land the last archfire and I can easily follow up with a levin-sword aerial I'd rather leave the book than waste the occasion, although this is debatable and heavily depends on the situation.

I don't completely agree with running away once you're out of wind tome or multiple equipment, yes, it's usually the safest option though it is really obvious, the way you can run away are either rolling behind your opponent if you're at the edge or jumping over him, and neither is usually safe, a predicted roll can result in being knocked out of the stage without recovery options and being on top of the opponent is a position with no options at all without elwind.
I'd say in that situation it can be better to stall your opponent, be defensive but don't run, if you miss only wind you can easily keep the opponent at bay with your standart tools(and wind has the fastest recovery time anyway),
Regarding the multiple-tools-missing situation, you should probably try to never let it happen, I know it happens, it happens to me too, but the equipment management is a core part of Robin and we should all make it a goal to master it.

I'd add to "Always charge thunder" a second rule in the form of "Always cast thunder", having a thoron sitting there if you don't plan to use it for the next 2 minutes is a waste of other options, I'm not saying you should waste it at the first chance, I'm just saying that while you have a thoron you can't use any of the other 3 levels of thunder that may come more handy in a specific moment.
Judge the situation and act accordingly, charging to the last level is not always the best thing to do.

Now regarding Nosferatu, I think it might be easy to land while the opponent is trapped into archfire, it would work kinda like this:
Archfire, dash, short hop, nosferatu. I don't think it's totally reliable but it worked quite a bit of times for me, I might test it out later to figure out proper timing and things like that.

Just to leave some personal experience, yesterday I fought a good villager that after pocketing elthunder one time and archthunder two times in the course of 3 matches, always tried to predict my archthunder to pocket it, I took advantage of it by charging all the way to thoron and storing it since he would let me do it for free and thoron was quite effective. Key to victory for Robin is capitalizing on the enemy's mistakes!

Also if I didn't miss it I think you forgot to say the thunder tome recharge time.

By the way, hello everyone! I'm new here, I just got the game for wiiu and main Robin, hope we'll be able to figure out the way to victory together!
As I said I just got the game so if a said anything stupid fell free to correct me, I have a lot to learn.
Also I'm sorry for any spell error I may have made, english is not my native language, feel free to correct those too if you feel like it.

 

[Zareidriel]

Hello, KeyDrop! Welcome to the Smash boards. You have quite a bit for me to go through, and I'll be happy to address everything as thoroughly as I can.

I added a section about "not always catching Equipment", thanks for that. =) You are #[3].

I think being in run-away mode is pretty easy, running, jumping, and airdodging around them for just a few seconds. I think the reader should be able to apply a little common sense to this and include "stalling" and "be defensive", not literally "run away only". Don't do anything easily punishable. But most importantly, just use your best judgement and do whatever you're most comfortable with in the situation. Losing many Equipment at once is so rare that I don't deign to even consider it, and you'll be back in business in only a few seconds anyway.

I'm going to disagree with the "always cast Thunder" rule! Here's why: Though there are many situations where El Thunder and Arcthunder are useful, Thoron is always, always, always the best spell to have available. It's basically a long-range free punish; if the enemy makes a mistake, Thoron is guaranteed damage. There is never a time that I would prefer having El Thunder or Arcthunder ready over having a Thoron ready. In addition, the fear of the Thoron in your tome might force the enemy to play more defensively, and use their reflectors in order to try and catch you off guard.

The Nosferatu technique you describe does work occasionally, and mostly against heavyweights; it might work more often against lighter characters at short range, but like you said, more testing is needed. I'll be putting it into my Secret Techniques.

Yes, a very good example against Villager! Thoron is harder to catch than the other two on account of its speed, and Villagers will often let you get away with it because they play defensive themselves, behind their trees or whatever lol.

Ah yes, I did forget Thunder's recharge time, good catch!

Lastly, nothing you said was stupid, but many things are a matter of opinion, and often times one person's opinion will be different than another's. And your English is quite good! Welcome to the Robin boards, and feel free to offer tips or discuss Robin in here any time! Your input is very appreciated.

 

[Laggalot101]

Thoron is definitely not always better than Arcthunder. Arcthunder traps the hit opponent, allowing for a Levin Sword follow up. The total damage you get from this trumps even an extended Thoron. On top of that, if the attack is shielded, it will still hit multiple times. If you're quick, you may be able to get a grab in. Finally, if you cast Thoron without any ground beneath you, you die. If you cast any other variant of Thunder, though, you can still very easily recover. You could maybe throw out Arcthunder while recovering, rather similar to what many like to do with Arcfire. Not sure if it is very usefull, but it's an option nonetheless.

Oh, and it also consumes fewer units of Thunder's durability.

 

[Zareidriel]

Hm, perhaps I'm not being quite clear with my wording. I don't mean "Thoron is always better than El and Arc, in every situation." All I mean is something along the lines of "If I could have any one of the 3 ready to go, I would prefer it to be Thoron". I'm not saying El and Arc don't have very important and useful uses, such as the ones you described.

 

[Ghotistyx]

I'm going to go out on a limb here real quick.

Elwind might actually have 18 uses. Each casting of Elwind uses 2 uses for an effective 9. The difference is in using the Wind jab, but I forget those exact mechanics. My browsing of the Prima guide confirmed this if my memory serves me anything (then again, it felt like the Prima guide just replicated what we already had here on the forums).

Its not a huge deal, but something I feel a diety-level guide would have

 

[Zareidriel]

You're quite still attached to the tree there, Ghotistyx; El Wind does, in fact, have 18 uses, which is important when you come down to the last 1 use and can only recover halfway.

The number of uses in the Wind jab is slightly complicated though, and I would like to have that information (how many uses it uses for its minimum and maximum durations) but I will settle for estimates, should I find them, or should someone else bring them here.

I guess I was just trying to simplify it more than a diety-level guide should. I will rectify that mistake!

 

[Kisatamura]

Hm, perhaps I'm not being quite clear with my wording. I don't mean "Thoron is always better than El and Arc, in every situation." All I mean is something along the lines of "If I could have any one of the 3 ready to go, I would prefer it to be Thoron". I'm not saying El and Arc don't have very important and useful uses, such as the ones you described.

I would switch between Arcthunder and Thoron depending on the matchup and/or opponent's damage. Thoron is faster than Arcthunder allowing for quicker punishes and also has KO potential, but Arcthunder allows followups but is the slowest Thunder spell.

Also, aiming Arcfire near the edge is a great way to force your opponent to either jump from ledge, or do a roll past it. Alternatively, they sometimes roll into Arcfire, so that's fun.

 

[Zareidriel]

The matchup thing is very true! I try not to use Thoron very often against opponents with reflectors (like it says in the guide) so sticking with El and Arc is probably better against certain guys. And having an Arcthunder and an Arcfire out at the same time can control the field and force your opponent into some difficult choices.

Well, I daresay I thought I was nearly "done" with the guide, having named it 0.9 Beta just yesterday. But the amount of relevant information to Robin is just too huge...so I worked on the thing for literally more than 6 straight hours over the course of the day. Probably more like 8-10 but I wasn't keeping track. Improvements include:

1. Spoiler'd everything cause it was just getting too freaking huge, which took forever cause the formatting was janky
2. Fixed outdated info and tidbits here and there
3. Added sections for Foxtrot, ~Radiance~'s Out of Shield research, and other crap
4. More colors
5. Expanded glossary
6. Added the first 3 Secret Techniques
...and more.

So now we're in 0.9.1 Beta. Was going to finish cleaning up the info and adding all the new suggestions I got from people but I'm tired. Flying home tomorrow so I'll be happy to play some Robin dittos and stuff with all you guys! I haven't gotten to play Robin in two weeks so I'll probably be rusty for a bit. Can't wait to get back to training. I'll be posting my Particulars in the guide to get a hold of me, but feel free to PM me on here, look up my Skype (it's Zareidriel) or email me (zareidriel@gmail.com) if you'd like to battle sometime.

Hope ya'll like the changes! Always taking new info, suggestions on fixing the guide, tips, tricks, Secret Techniques, etc, so give a holler in here if you want to spread the cause of Robins everywhere!

 

[SoBMudkip]

Really basic question here. When I'm charged arcthunder, is there any way to release it right away? I'm not sure if i'm doing somthing wrong, but if I press , she continues to charge the arcthunder towards a thoron. I've gotton around this by just double-tapping , so she does a quick charge and releases the arcthunder, but this is not ideal.

 

[Laggalot101]

As far as I'm aware, and I'd be shocked if there turned out to be some way without me knowing by now, there's no way to instantly release thunder, except Thoron (obviously). Unfortunately.

 

[Zareidriel]

I find that a double-tapped B can be executed fairly quickly enough, even fast enough to do a reverse-Arcthunder or the like. Reversed Arcthunders were a favorite technique of Nairo's, and I found them not too difficult to pull off. Just having to press B once would be nice, but with no way to do that that I know of, having to double-tap it isn't so bad.

Been busy lately catching up with vacation. I'd like to have this guide "done" (out of Beta at least) by the time school starts again on the 12th. Found some interesting new information and tidbits. Also planning on doing a brief Stages phase.

 

[Demonstormkill]

By the way, Robin players should know about this tech: http://smashboards.com/threads/ftilt-with-item-in-hand.381113/

I notice it wasn't mentioned in your "options while holding an item" under Fahrenheit 451. You can ftilt or fsmash with an item in hand, as explained in that thread. I don't see either being especially useful but who knows?

 

[~Radiance~]

Lovely guide, tons of great info. Very well put together, ill see if there's anything I can help on even though I'm not maining robin at this point lol

 

[Kisatamura]

By the way, Robin players should know about this tech: http://smashboards.com/threads/ftilt-with-item-in-hand.381113/

I notice it wasn't mentioned in your "options while holding an item" under Fahrenheit 451. You can ftilt or fsmash with an item in hand, as explained in that thread. I don't see either being especially useful but who knows?

I wish you could dtilt with that, since dtilt is faster than ftilt and only had less range.

 

[Demonstormkill]

I just realized that you can buffer a roll when landing by charging thunder and hitting whatever direction you'd like to roll while landing. This way you roll instantly upon hitting the ground and avoid accidental airdodge inputs. If you B-reverse thunder into your landing, you'll use forward roll backwards (because you turned around in the B-reverse). Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to B-reverse into back-roll because you're automatically facing the direction you just pressed when B-reversing thunder. Of course you can B-reverse before landing and then back-roll. That's actually still pretty interesting but it's a little slower. It helps if you're good at quickly flicking the control stick for both horizontal inputs.

I'm just going off of memory since I don't know what game it was but I seem to remember Nairo using this a bit just to gain space with landing back-roll in some game on battlefield, but it wasn't very impressive. Maybe it can be put to better use. It'll take some getting used to as I don't roll much, but I'll experiment with it in some games.

 

[Zareidriel]

Ah very interesting find, DSK! I will definitely add that to the guide. That's a cool mixup to be able to do an attack while holding an item.

I'd honestly prefer the ftilt, because of the range alone I think I use it more often than the dtilt. If only you could have an item and still use aerials...

~Radiance~ I'll get back to you soon about that stuff we were going to test out, just been busy as all hell lately.

That's an interesting technique, buffering the roll so that it comes out as fast as possible...I'm going to look into that with the B-reversals some more and put it in the guide. It's very helpful of you to report your findings here DSK, Robins across the world thank you.

Also ~Radiance~ if you'd like to post that glowing review in the reviews section I would be eternally grateful. 8]

 

[elegyempty]

One thing I like to do against rushdown/brawler characters who get a little overzealous with ground approaches is
- train them to expect the fire jab
- laugh a lot when they charge headfirst into a held wind jab and get launched with the finisher

I like to think of the fire combo as the actual jab finisher and the wind combo as a "net" for catching the unwary.

This isn't the sort of thing that will work repeatedly in the same match, but works pretty consistently on the first try and causes the opponent to hesitate more. Obviously, watch that wind tome (especially in 3-stock matches omg); I burn a few uses if I catch it running low, usually by attempting the above or throwing out the safest Elwind shots I can manage.

 

[Zareidriel]

That's an interesting tactic, elegyempty. That could work against certain strategies, and holding the wind jab in a variety of situations could be beneficial. I'll find a place for that in the guide.

Added a Stages section, and it's already complete; I have the 11 most common stages on there, but if any new ones become popular I can add them later. I would like input as to how accurate my "Small, Medium, and Large" for the stage sizes as well as the distance to the blast line are.

Also as you might have noticed I had to split the guide into two. My current plan is to finish Schema 3 before moving onto Phase 19, and then 11-15. And then I'll finally be done. (Whew!) This thread is fine for discussion on "both" parts of the guide, though it's really just one guide split into two parts.

 

[Laggalot101]

I think what you've done is really neat. I wasn't actually aware of Nosferatu's apparently awesome vertical range, so this 'Rising Dusk' as you call it is something I need to try out.

Quick note, I think you might want to seperate the 'ideal' stage in your mind from the actual stages a bit. I got confused for a second there.

Also on stages, not sure if this really helpful at all, but I keep hearing that Town & City, Lylat Cruise and Halberd have rather low ceilings.

Finally, I'm wondering if there's some sort of combination that would allow you to more-or-less force a shield break or otherwise just force the opponenet to take a strong hit. Between Thoron, a wasted tome and arcfire, I think you could sort of 'chain' quite a bit of shield damage. Of course, this is all theorycraft, probably not all that practical and rather niche, but I just feel like throwing out ideas.

So again, I really like what I'm seeing. Very excited to see the whole thing finished (or as finished as it'll ever get, not sure if you'd care to update if more important information is discovered).

 

[Zareidriel]

Thanks. Yeah Nosferatu is great in a lot of scenarios one might never even consider. I've actually got pictures coming up that will demonstrate the vertical range of Nosferatu.

Haha, that's funny actually. I'm gonna leave it there though Just for laughs. The name of the stage is "Wizard Island" so I'm sure people will figure it out after blinking a few times.

I do think I have their stages on the low side (or maybe Medium). I would like to find more definite data, or a methodology of finding more exact measurements for the height of the ceiling. Maybe I'll try upthrows at different percentages...

That is an interesting idea. All ideas and theorycraft is appreciated! There are many of us, and people can always have good ideas or think from angles that others might not. I have tried this kind of thing in my own matches, following up a shielded Arcfire with a Thoron, etc. Usually it doesn't poke, but your idea of using three attacks (maybe a melee attack instead of a Tome, or whatever else) might poke or even shieldbreak. Definitely something worth looking into.

I'm glad you like it so far. I can't wait to get it "finished" either. I do plan on keeping the guide updated with new and relevant information over the years; don't touch that dial folks!

 

[Demonstormkill]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ceiling-height-research-thread.384187/

 

[Zareidriel]

Oh, well that makes things easier. Much appreciated, DSK.

 

[Estaphan]

Just a few things.
First of all, the colours chosen for the Thunder Tomes and Thoron are ****ing horrendous, especially considering how powerful of a spell Thoron is. Clearly this is the most important point I wanted to bring up.

Secondly, I tested Thoron against neutral position Link in training and Thoron is completely blocked by his shield save for a few percent at the end, while Arcthunder is helpless against it. However depending on how far away Link is, a short hop Thoron can go right above his shield and into his stupid elf face.

Also concerning Nosferatu techniques I've come across two that may be useful. The first one is that Nosferatu can B-reverse (you may have brought this up but rereading the Nosferatu section it doesn't say anything about it) so it can help in surprising opponents. The other is that you can use Nosferatu soon after you jump up from a ledge, so this could work against people shielding in expectation of a get up attack or just generally not expecting a Nosferatu. I can't really test either of these because if there's two things I lack it's people or tournaments to play in and Smash Bros skill.

Lastly I just wanted to say that I preferred the guide when it was in spoiler tags, just saying.

Edit: I forgot one. I always seem to have trouble charging Thoron against fighters who have spammable projectiles like Mario, Pikachu or Space Bird. Same with throwing out Arcfire. What do? This also brings up another question, Space Dog users tend to spam their lasers while I'm charging Thoron (I doubt this is the best approach for them but anyway) and I always wondered if the 10-20%(?) is worth a free Thoron (also considering that it's against a reflector user)

Edit 2: Also I doubt I'm the first to bring it up somewhere but I found a cool move for stages with platforms. If your opponent is right next to you on a platform and is planning to attack, grab or whatever then you can drop downwards and immediately strike with an uair. This works no matter which way you're facing however facing towards the opponent gives you slightly more range (if facing you can hit them from about 5/8s of a Battlefield platform while facing away reaches about half of one).

Edit 3: It will be a sad time when someone responds and I'll actually have to add things in brand new posts. Testing around with Lucario in training shows that max aura Aura Sphere goes through Thoron much like Samus's shot does. However my super in-depth and reliable tests (putting Lucario and Robin at opposite ends of Final Destination and firing specials at the same time) shows that, since Aura Sphere travels slower than the Samus variation, you can shield just before the Sphere hits you even when using the longer Thoron. Unfortunately the situation described is pretty uncommon for matches but I still feel this information could probably be helpful at some points.