Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[BluePikmin11]

Since you guys are discussing Pokemon, I thought I would ask a question:

I have been wondering about the placeholder spots in the Gematsu leak such as Pokémon X & Y/Chrom in Smash 4. Could a character placeholder for an Echoes/FE16 and Pokemon 7th/8th generation newcomer exist for Smash Switch? How flexible could things change if Sakurai were developing a character from a previous game only for the next game of the franchise to be in notable progression for Sakurai to last-minute develop a character from the newest game?

Or would he be dead set on his decision? If we were to assume things can change last minute (specifically in the case of Pokémon), do you think back in Smash 4 and Brawl, would Greninja/Lucario being added last minute instead of a 3rd/5th generation newcomer be the reason why Jigglypuff and Mewtwo end up being in the cutting block in each Smash game?

 

[SmashChu]

That drama most certainly didn't just appear out of thin air in 2015. As much as that drama was heated? That had been boiling for a while.

It erupted and became public then, but there's no doubt in my mind Konami was being a **** to Kojima long before all of that. After all games stay in development for a long while and we know that it really just came to it's climax at the end of that last Metal Gear game he did for them.

The drama was mostly a result of Kojima's contract being up at the end of 2015 and likely how much MGS5 was costing after Ground Zero failed to meet expectation. This would not have been a problem in 2012, 2013, or 2014, which were the years Smash was being developed for. And during all that time, Kojima was a VP. "Konami drama" is nothing more than an excuse.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Chrono wouldn't be hype. Chrono would be dumb. Square Enix has long proven they have no interest in doing a third Chrono game.

I loved that series too, but there's absolutely no way Chrono gets in over Cloud. And Sora has the Mickey Mouse problem to jump through as well. He's about as likely as Goku because of being shared between Square and Disney.

 

[Deathcarter]

She's the ballot winner, fam. Cutting her from base game is pretty much a big *** fan riot and bad juju headed Sakurai's way.

There's no way in heck he'll cut her from base game. She and Sonic are safest third parties.

I wager he'll fight hard for Cloud as well, seeing as next to Sonic, he's the playable third party icon people will probably riot most over. Have you seen Final Fantasy 7 fans? They crazy.

The ballot really doesn't matter that much when you realize that everybody on the roster aside from Corrin was already in the roster or in the case of Cloud already decided on by the time the ballot ended it so her success on it wouldn't factor in too much when it comes to deciding roster priority among the Smash 4 newcomers. She has decent popularity and some name value among parts of the broader gaming community but when compared to the other newcomers:

- She doesn't rep a new 1st party franchise ()
- She doesn't have huge popularity among casuals or the Nintendo faithful ()
- She isn't the star of a WiiU/3DS era game with strong Japanese popularity ()
- She isn't a pet character of Sakurai's ()
- She isn't a license to print money ()

Forgive me for being skeptical about her supposedly great chances when the only two thing we know she has going for compared to other newcomers are her being easier to negotiate for than the other 3rd parties and Sakurai explicitly stating he thought there were too many Fire Emblem characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The drama was mostly a result of Kojima's contract being up at the end of 2015 and likely how much MGS5 was costing after Ground Zero failed to meet expectation. This would not have been a problem in 2012, 2013, or 2014, which were the years Smash was being developed for. And during all that time, Kojima was a VP. "Konami drama" is nothing more than an excuse.

If Sakurai and Kojima are good enough buddies for Snake not getting into Melee only due to the game being rushed I'm pretty sure Kojima could say "Ugh, game development is hitting a snag, these assholes keep meddling with my work" because as we know Konami meddled with MGSV. Oh, and if it's 'just an excuse' tell me what could be a genuine factor oh, wise "My avatar is of someone who gets literally everything wrong about movies"?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The drama was mostly a result of Kojima's contract being up at the end of 2015 and likely how much MGS5 was costing after Ground Zero failed to meet expectation. This would not have been a problem in 2012, 2013, or 2014, which were the years Smash was being developed for. And during all that time, Kojima was a VP. "Konami drama" is nothing more than an excuse.

If you wish to believe that then fine. It seems like a fallacy and not understanding how that drama all really went down, but okay.

But it is known that drama was something that clearly didn't just start in 2015.

It started happening during the productions of Phantom Pain and Silent Hills.

Both of those games didn't just magically start development in 2014 and get finished/unfinished (RIP Silent Hills) in 2015. Games don't work that way.

Kojima doesn't own Snake. So Sakurai can't just approach him. Now ask yourself. If those two games were in development. Sakurai approaches about Snake again and Kojima is having issues with Konami and vice versa. Konami was a bitter asshat in all that. They most likely would have said ''No." just to spite Kojima.

This is the same company that put out Survive under the Metal Gear name, again to most likely spite him.

The ballot really doesn't matter that much when you realize that everybody on the roster aside from Corrin was already in the roster or in the case of Cloud already decided on by the time the ballot ended it so her success on it wouldn't factor in too much when it comes to deciding roster priority among the Smash 4 newcomers. She has decent popularity and some name value among parts of the broader gaming community but when compared to the other newcomers:

- She doesn't rep a new 1st party franchise ()
- She doesn't have huge popularity among casuals or the Nintendo faithful ()
- She isn't the star of a WiiU/3DS era game with strong Japanese popularity ()
- She isn't a pet character of Sakurai's ()
- She isn't a license to print money ()

Forgive me for being skeptical about her supposedly great chances when the only two thing we know she has going for compared to other newcomers are her being easier to negotiate for than the other 3rd parties and Sakurai explicitly stating he thought there were too many Fire Emblem characters.

Ignoring all that mumbo jumbo about that ballot.

Bayonetta is practically second party. Her franchise is around because Nintendo saved it and they have faith in her. When they did women's month advertising, Bayonetta was thrown in with their own female characters.

So yeah she does rep a franchise close to Nintendo like Villager, WFT, Shulk, Duck Hunt and Little Mac.

Bayonetta is insanely popular among casuals and the Nintendo faithful. Ironically since I run in the Rosalina fanbase as well, 8 times out of 10? A Rosie fan is a Bayonetta fan.

The Japanese thing isn't neither here nor there.

Neither is the pet character of Sakurai's thing.

Everything is a license to print money. That's literally the only reason ANY fictional character exists in anything.

 

[InauspiciousPio]

What if Goku DID join Smash?



That’d be nuts.

 

[Wyoming]

Only third parties I see in danger are Cloud and possibly Ryu. Both I think were more geared towards marketing of their respective new games. Of course, they'd still want to keep their characters in Smash, but it is a hunch.

Sakurai won't outright make the decision to cut any of them. It will come down to negotiations and monetary clauses. Bayonetta possibly has the 2nd safest spot for the third parties as Sonic is certainly coming back and with Nintendo publishing her games now what would be the logic to remove her?

I have more doubts about Mega Man than her on the basis that Capcom like to pull a stupid move or two.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

My thing with the Cloud and Ryu were added to promote their new games is.

No? No they weren't.

Cloud's newest game isn't out yet. Seems to be in development hell. He was added because he's the most iconic JRPG face possibly ever.

Ryu was added because Sakurai is a massive Street Fighter fan for one. I can see him having a particularly hard time cutting Ryu. Not to mention Switch has a Street Fighter game on it. It's not THE Street Fighter game of the moment.

But lol, Ryu certainly didn't get in to advertize Street Fighter 5 seeing as that's going to be PS4 and PC only forever. PS4 isn't letting go of that sucker.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The winner was of course, Magnus. Dyntos and Phyrron seen some votes while it was Arlon who was seen as the least interesting Kid Icarus character.

Next up is all about the wacky wonderful WarioWare series. There are many potential characters from these games. Your choices are Mona, Jimmy T, 9-Volt, and Orbulon.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

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[Cutie Gwen]

I don't understand why people think Ryu might get cut. He's unique and popular

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't understand why people think Ryu might get cut. He's unique and popular

The only way he'd get cut is if Capcom USA doesn't want to cooperate with Sakurai and Nintendo at all. And I doubt that. Both Capcom companies are not the best business decision makers ever, of course, but I'm not too worried about either character.

 

[Fenriraga]

So here's a bit of a different question. Are there any COMPOSERS You hope to see come back for the next Smash?

For me particularly, I'd love to see Yoko Shimomura do more Nintendo pieces. Her compositions of Route 10 and Dedede's theme are just stellar, as are the remixes of her own tunes from the M&L and Street Fighter series.

I'd also really like to see Jun Senoue do another piece. Angel Island zone is great, but the dude has been very inactive in the Sonic series in terms of new compositions. Hell, let him do some Nintendo songs, that'd be absolutely nutty.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I don't understand why people think Ryu might get cut. He's unique and popular

He's Mr. Fighting Game.

Like say the word fighting game and he and a few select others are the first faces that pop in your head.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He's Mr. Fighting Game.

Like say the word fighting game and he and a few select others are the first faces that pop in your head.

You're only making my point stronger, please stop, the police can't stop it

 

[Tree Gelbman]

You're only making my point stronger, please stop, the police can't stop it

But Gwen. He was added to promote Street Fighter 5!

Exclusively on Playstation!

Get your copy today!

And don't forget the season pass! Blanka out now!

 

[ColietheGoalie]

So here's a bit of a different question. Are there any COMPOSERS You hope to see come back for the next Smash?

For me particularly, I'd love to see Yoko Shimomura do more Nintendo pieces. Her compositions of Route 10 and Dedede's theme are just stellar, as are the remixes of her own tunes from the M&L and Street Fighter series.

I'd also really like to see Jun Senoue do another piece. Angel Island zone is great, but the dude has been very inactive in the Sonic series in terms of new compositions. Hell, let him do some Nintendo songs, that'd be absolutely nutty.

Shimomura and ACE+ both I’d love to have back. I really hope Xenoblade gets a few more remixes this time, as awesome as the original tracks are.

 

[Curious Villager]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kojima himself state that he wasn't contacted for Snake's return in Smash 4? I don't think the drama with Konami had anything to do with it as was stated, that happened a few years after the roster was decided.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

In regards to the Snake discussion, keep in mind the roster for Smash 4 was finalised in 2012.

What if Goku DID join Smash?



That’d be nuts.

Yeah, Goku from Yukyuki would be great.

When people bring up the iconic argument they are mostly mistaken it for nostalgia. Iconic is a charatce rthat is easily recognizable and is well known throughout the gaming world. Nintendo has accomplished this from being around a long time (often confusing nintendo purists and those of us blinded by nostalgia) and has blurred the line between which characters are iconic and which are nostalgia. I'd argue bayo is much closer to iconic than most of this form would want to realize.

You're refuting an argument that no- one here made when discussing iconic video game characters. I mean, Tracer is infinitively newer than Bayonetta, but nobody here is going to argue she isn't iconic, so your argument doesn't work.

 

[Arcanir]

Since you guys are discussing Pokemon, I thought I would ask a question:

I have been wondering about the placeholder spots in the Gematsu leak such as Pokémon X & Y/Chrom in Smash 4. Could a character placeholder for an Echoes/FE16 and Pokemon 7th/8th generation newcomer exist for Smash Switch? How flexible could things change if Sakurai were developing a character from a previous game only for the next game of the franchise to be in notable progression for Sakurai to last-minute develop a character from the newest game?

It's possible, though there are a few differences in the situations between those games.

Timing-wise, FE16 and Pokémon Switch are in far different positions then FE Awakening and Pokémon XY. The former came out before the Smash 4 project started and Sakurai even said that it's timing was fortuitous since if it came out six months too early or too late it would've missed the boat, FE Switch is coming out likely around the time Smash Switch does, which makes its timing a lot more contentious. Pokémon Switch is in a similar situation, we know that Sakurai is willing to wait, but Pokémon XY came out during Smash 4's development, not around it at best. So their timing could be less fortuitous then it was for Awakening and XY, and thus make things a lot more complicated for them.

With Pokémon SM and Echoes it'd be slightly different, but closer to the same. I could see Pokemon SM being put aside as a slot, but their situation could also be more akin to Lucario's then Greninja's since the game would be out early in Smash Switch's production and thus Sakurai could potentially pick from popular reception/promotion rather then concepts. With Echoes, it'd be akin to Pokémon XY since it'd come out in the middle of production and if Sakurai set aside a slot for FE they'd be perfect choices for addition. Their timing could be fortuitous in the sense that they arrived just in time to be playable. ​

It should be noted though that Chrom's case is a rather weird one. We know that Robin was in consideration at least as early as April 2012 as they appear on the project plan, so conceptually Sakurai already had them in mind alongside Chrom rather then as a full replacement initially. It seems that the situation is that rather then them replacing Chrom in development, they just pushed him out completely when Sakurai felt he brought little to the table, thus making their addition less last minute. For a potential example, it'd be like if Sakurai picked Echoes for a game and then put in Alm and Celica, but once we tried to think up a moveset for Alm and hit a wall, he threw out the former and prioritized the latter completely. ​

Or would he be dead set on his decision? If we were to assume things can change last minute (specifically in the case of Pokémon), do you think back in Smash 4 and Brawl, would Greninja/Lucario being added last minute instead of a 3rd/5th generation newcomer be the reason why Jigglypuff and Mewtwo end up being in the cutting block in each Smash game?

Greninja wasn't a last minute addition really, his slot was set aside early in production and he just filled it once the concepts were given to Sakurai (which could've been done anytime between the project's start and XY's reveal). It didn't kick out any Gen 5 Pokémon because at best they were in consideration at the same time, as far as we're aware no development was done on a new Pokémon until Greninja was picked. With Lucario, unlike Greninja he was already in the public eye at the time Brawl started due to the movie, so he probably didn't kick out anyone either and was likely was intended to be playable early in development.

As for Mewtwo and maybe Jigglypuff, while Lucario and PT were definitely higher in priority then them, we can probably blame more Sonic for that one. We know he threw off development enough to cause a delay, it's definitely possible that his very late addition caused a negative ripple effect that got Mewtwo sidelined and Jigglypuff nearly on the chopping block herself.

 

[Chiroz]

all roy fans better brace themselves. i really can't see him staying. i perosnally would like him gone becuase his mechanic is awful. Also his popularity pales in comparison to others. its not even clear if he's popular due to his own games or not.

While I agree that Roy is in the top 5 cuts in the game, what is it that you hate about his mechanic? I actually find Roy incredibly fun and will be very sad to see him gone.

Most people have no understanding of what role/niche Roy actually serves in the game. I cringe at all the "We have too many people that play like Marth" when Roy plays nothing like Marth.

Roy's mechanic/role is only slightly covered by Falcon and maybe, if we're reaching, Greninja. There aren't any other hyper aggressive fast characters that are built around pressuring and conditioning. But Roy has the cool aspect of being able to also play defensively and wall out characters if need be (like in the Mario MU, when walling out Mario proves to be the best strategy), even if his damage sucks while walling he can still DO it.

IDK I will be very sad to see Roy gone because no one plays like him in the game.

 

[New_Dumal]

Chrono wouldn't be hype. Chrono would be dumb. Square Enix has long proven they have no interest in doing a third Chrono game.

I loved that series too, but there's absolutely no way Chrono gets in over Cloud. And Sora has the Mickey Mouse problem to jump through as well. He's about as likely as Goku because of being shared between Square and Disney.

Are you sure there's no way ?
While Chrono would surprise me a lot, Cloud was the most unexpected thing I ever saw into Smash.
About Sora and Disney, why would Disney stop this idea ? They have a new K.Hearts to sale soon and Sora would be represented into a massive game.Also, the character itself looks much better into a Smash environment than Ryu or Snake.
I think that there will be a newcomer so strange that we will lose our minds again. Something like the Mickey Mouse itself.

Brawl had Sonic/Snake, third-party characters.
Smash4 have Cloud, who the main game is not even on a Nintendo console.
While I don't want to, I think we arrived into a era where Goku is a dangerous joke

 

[Chiroz]

So here's something for you guys to consider.

Around early 2015 I believe, slightly before DLC started (I think Mewtwo might have already been announced though) there were job postings for Smash 5 from Nintendo.

As someone who works on the game industry, job postings are placed, very obviously, after a project has already been planned and greenlit and in fact has already started it's beginning stages (normally job postings are done during Pre-Production, which is the first stage of a game's development).

Negotiations take a long time obviously, but this definitely means that when Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta were "negotiated" Smash 5 was for sure already planned to happen and could have already been worked on (Pre-Production stage).

Do you guys believe that Nintendo would honestly negotiate a 3rd party character to only be on Smash 4 and not on Smash 5? If the game was either in pre-pro or at least in the planning stages, do you guys really believe Nintendo would not look ahead towards that game?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I honestly belive Bandai Namco is helping out again as well because those job postings for a new Smash game were from them as well.

 

[Jubileus57]

While I don't want to, I think we arrived into a era where Goku is a dangerous joke

May we be saved from this catastrophy.

I hope the licencing issues and Sakurai's goodwill will prevent us from suffering anime characters in Smash.

 

[New_Dumal]

I like Roy as a character, the boy's quite stylish.
But I'm with the people who don't like his concept/mechanics and would not be sad to see him gone into this new Smash.
If you have a sword ... you should space yourself to hit the tip of your hitbox (most times even when you don't have a sword).
Even Sakurai said that Marth rewards "advanced players" overs Lucina. Roy concept rewards spacing yourself bad.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

The winner was of course, Magnus. Dyntos and Phyrron seen some votes while it was Arlon who was seen as the least interesting Kid Icarus character.

Next up is all about the wacky wonderful WarioWare series. There are many potential characters from these games. Your choices are Mona, Jimmy T, 9-Volt, and Orbulon.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

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I'm not too familar with the rules of your voting thing so I have to ask.

Where is Ashley?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So here's something for you guys to consider.

Around early 2015 I believe, slightly before DLC started (I think Mewtwo might have already been announced though) there were job postings for Smash 5 from Nintendo.

As someone who works on the game industry, job postings are placed, very obviously, after a project has already been planned and greenlit and in fact has already started it's beginning stages (normally job postings are done during Pre-Production, which is the first stage of a game's development).

Negotiations take a long time obviously, but this definitely means that when Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta were "negotiated" Smash 5 was for sure already planned to happen and could have already been worked on (Pre-Production stage).

Do you guys believe that Nintendo would honestly negotiate a 3rd party character to only be on Smash 4 and not on Smash 5? If the game was either in pre-pro or at least in the planning stages, do you guys really believe Nintendo would not look ahead towards that game?

The job listing was found in 2014, actually.

 

[Chiroz]

So here's something for you guys to consider.

Around early 2015 I believe, slightly before DLC started (I think Mewtwo might have already been announced though) there were job postings for Smash 5 from Nintendo.

As someone who works on the game industry, job postings are placed, very obviously, after a project has already been planned and greenlit and in fact has already started it's beginning stages (normally job postings are done during Pre-Production, which is the first stage of a game's development).

Negotiations take a long time obviously, but this definitely means that when Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta were "negotiated" Smash 5 was for sure already planned to happen and could have already been worked on (Pre-Production stage).

Do you guys believe that Nintendo would honestly negotiate a 3rd party character to only be on Smash 4 and not on Smash 5? If the game was either in pre-pro or at least in the planning stages, do you guys really believe Nintendo would not look ahead towards that game?

Woops, my post got cut. It was supposed to say

Because me personally I believe that if I were Nintendo and I was negotiating for 3rd party characters, I would negotiate for them to be in the next shiny new game as opposed to being DLC in the game that already sold. I would definitely negotiate for characters to be included in Smash 5 over Smash 4.

This is why I believe that any 3rd party DLC in Smash 4 got in because they were negotiated for both games, although my assumption is only based on: "Why would Nintendo not negotiate in such a way", which is not really a solid argument as I know nothing of actual business deals.

The job listing was found in 2014, actually.

So even earlier, which strengthens my post.

 

[SmashChu]

If you wish to believe that then fine. It seems like a fallacy and not understanding how that drama all really went down, but okay.

But it is known that drama was something that clearly didn't just start in 2015.

It started happening during the productions of Phantom Pain and Silent Hills.

Both of those games didn't just magically start development in 2014 and get finished/unfinished (RIP Silent Hills) in 2015. Games don't work that way.

Kojima doesn't own Snake. So Sakurai can't just approach him. Now ask yourself. If those two games were in development. Sakurai approaches about Snake again and Kojima is having issues with Konami and vice versa. Konami was a bitter ****** in all that. They most likely would have said ''No." just to spite Kojima.

This is the same company that put out Survive under the Metal Gear name, again to most likely spite him.

Youre going to have to start posting some links because you are making a lot of assumptions that are unfounded. You're making up this timeline that has no basis for it. I'm going to lay out the facts

• Smash was in development from 2012-2014, started in 2012 (http://andriasang.com/comw79/smash_bros_development/). Characters would have been decided earlier and any contracts would have also been done earlier rather than later.
• Kojima was made a VP in 2011 (https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/124141/Konami_Promotes_Hideo_Kojima_To_Vice_President.php_
• The news that Kojima was being let go didn't come out until March 2015, about a half a year after Smash 3DS released (and even later from the game going Gold) (https://www.gamespot.com/articles/kojima-expected-to-leave-konami-after-mgs5-inside-/1100-6426024/)
• Silent Hill was greenlit by the company. In fact, Konami's President asked him to do it. This was in 2012 (https://www.destructoid.com/konami-has-asked-hideo-kojima-to-helm-silent-hill-235750.phtml)

Unless you can actually provide something that shows there were issues sooner, I'm going to say you're wrong.

 

[Chiroz]

I like Roy as a character, the boy's quite stylish.
But I'm with the people who don't like his concept/mechanics and would not be sad to see him gone into this new Smash.
If you have a sword ... you should space yourself to hit the tip of your hitbox (most times even when you don't have a sword).
Even Sakurai said that Marth rewards "advanced players" overs Lucina. Roy concept rewards spacing yourself bad.

I mean, I think you aren't looking at it from the same point of view I do. I see Roy as a Falcon who can also be played like a bad Marth if the MU requires it. But most of the time, you are playing as Falcon and not as a Swordsman.

Or another way to see it is Roy's neutral is a mix of Marth and Falcon, whereas his advantage and disadvantage is much more like Falcon and almost nothing like Marth.

I think the problem people see in Roy's design is that they are still looking at it through Melee eyes (where Roy and Marth were identical) and are saying that the hilt sweetspot is a bad mechanic. But in Roy's current character/design, with his very different stats and knockback angles, it actually isn't a bad mechanic, in fact it meshes pretty well. Roy isn't meant to be a spacing swordsman, he is meant to be a pressure character.

I do believe that they should balance him slightly better. Probably let him keep the super armor on aerial Up-B. Give him slightly faster hitboxes and maybe a little bit less lag on some specific attacks (Marth's attacks shouldn't be faster than Roy, lol) and make his Side-B actually link correctly.

People are misjudging his design.

 

[CodeBlue_]

The winner was of course, Magnus. Dyntos and Phyrron seen some votes while it was Arlon who was seen as the least interesting Kid Icarus character.

Next up is all about the wacky wonderful WarioWare series. There are many potential characters from these games. Your choices are Mona, Jimmy T, 9-Volt, and Orbulon.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Begin.

Where is Ashley?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think the problem people see in Roy's design is that they are still looking at it through Melee eyes (where Roy and Marth were identical) and are saying that the hilt sweetspot is a bad mechanic. But in Roy's current character, it isn't a bad mechanic. Roy isn't meant to be a spacing swordsman, he is meant to be a pressure character.

It's inherently bad in the sense that in order to nab KOs, you need to get much more close to the opponent than needed. This is not a problem for majority of "sword" characters since their hitboxes are either consistent or stronger at the tip, meaning they can take better advantage of the extended hitboxes their respective weapons provide. This is one of the reasons why Marth is seen as the better of the two in particular.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Has there been anything new in the past 40 pages?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Has there been anything new in the past 40 pages?

Not really.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The ballot really doesn't matter that much when you realize that everybody on the roster aside from Corrin was already in the roster or in the case of Cloud already decided on by the time the ballot ended it so her success on it wouldn't factor in too much when it comes to deciding roster priority among the Smash 4 newcomers. She has decent popularity and some name value among parts of the broader gaming community but when compared to the other newcomers:

- She doesn't rep a new 1st party franchise ()
- She doesn't have huge popularity among casuals or the Nintendo faithful ()
- She isn't the star of a WiiU/3DS era game with strong Japanese popularity ()
- She isn't a pet character of Sakurai's ()
- She isn't a license to print money ()

Forgive me for being skeptical about her supposedly great chances when the only two thing we know she has going for compared to other newcomers are her being easier to negotiate for than the other 3rd parties and Sakurai explicitly stating he thought there were too many Fire Emblem characters.

You say Bayonetta doesn't have huge popularity with the Nintendo faithful...

But we have direct evidence that she does with the ballot.

 

[Chiroz]

It's inherently bad in the sense that in order to nab KOs, you need to get much more close to the opponent than needed. This is not a problem for majority of "sword" characters since their hitboxes are either consistent or stronger at the tip, meaning they can take better advantage of the extended hitboxes their respective weapons provide. This is one of the reasons why Marth is seen as the better of the two in particular.

I mean, so do a lot of non-sword characters.

Which is my point, Roy is a sword character that is meant to played in a completely different way from any other sword character. And it's not like it "doesn't work", the problem is how the balancing was done, the concept itself can work pretty well.

Imagine it in this way. Roy's tipper is about 30% of his hitbox, instead of trying to hit with 100% range, you are spacing yourself to always hit with 70%, that is your spacing. It's not that you are trying to get as close as possible, you are trying to spaced at a different range, it's like he doesn't have a sword at all.

The difference is, if you're playing against a char where it is imperative to keep him out, you have the option of extending your range from 70% to 100% but lose the damage and combo potential. That is the way I view Roy.

So I don't see it as "He needs to get close to do damage", I see it as "I can use more range at the cost of less damage".

If Roy had gotten the buffs that Marth got on patch 1.1.5 and 1.1.3 (I believe it was those 2), I think he would be very close to the same spot as Marth is in the tier list. As in, if Roy's hitboxes were made slightly bigger (even if it was just his tipper hitbox that was bigger), his startup and end lag were slightly buffed and his side-b was fixed to connect correctly Roy would definitely be a huge contender for top tier.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You say Bayonetta doesn't have huge popularity with the Nintendo faithful...

But we have direct evidence that she does with the ballot.

People make ridiculous statements. I mean, somebody else stated that people are equating iconic status to how old the character is despite the existence of a character like Tracer.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

People make ridiculous statements. I mean, somebody else stated that people are equating iconic status to how old the character is despite the existence of a character like Tracer.

Tracer is a really good example.

I'd also wager and argue that Genji and Mercy are other good examples that Overwatch provides. They're not the mascot, but a lot of people KNOW of them as well.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

People make ridiculous statements. I mean, somebody else stated that people are equating iconic status to how old the character is despite the existence of a character like Tracer.

That addresses my point... How?