Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Clones never get capitalized on unless it's for late development decisions, though.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Clones never get capitalized on unless it's for late development decisions, though.

This.

And to think Alph was that close to being his own character...

 

[Luminario]

Ah. Alright.

And that's fine. I'm a Daisy fan as well; not as strongly, but I'd be happy to see her too.

Talking from a different angle, being clone material and can actually help Daisy, not hurt her in the long run. Clones make a lot of sense from a developer's perspective - easy to make, and if the clone is popular (like Lucina), easy to sell. Clones only really seem to be stigmatised the speculation community because of the premium placed on uniqueness and potential. The importance of being unique and standing out steadily decreases the farther you are from a main character though. Main characters necessarily have to offer something unique, as they are the principal representatives of their games, and being a clone casts their series in a poor light. Sides characters don't have that obligation though.

If you're going to judge Daisy by the same standards that led to Rosalina or Robin being chosen, she is going to lose because she doesn't meet them. Judging her by the standards which got us Dr. Mario, Dark Pit or Alph, feel much more reasonable imo.

Her specials would need to be changed, and I think she'd benefit from being Luigified a bit more than a regular clone, but that could definitely work.

I mean, this is a place of debate, so I assumed this is precisely the place to make these kind of points. No malice is intended for liking Daisy, I was merely giving my two cents on why I don't see her as a realistic choice for a character, assuming Sakurai is still in charge of directing Smash.

Sorry that was meant to sound more lighthearted and humorous than it did. He's got good points that do need to be addressed for Daisy to be included as a fighter.
To be honest there's no way to get me to stop wanting Daisy in smash. She could be in a T pose with nothing but a spin as an attack and I'd be crying tears of joy at her inclusion.

It's all good honey debate away~

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

This must also apply to characters like Geno, Lana, or Tsubasa too. But third party ownership is the bigger issue.

One of these is not like the other.

Not like you want to address the puppet in the room.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Because in this particular case, it's insinuating that bias is the only factor to Palutena getting unique customs and Dark Pit's existence in Smash.

When that couldn't be further from the truth.

Each new addition (aside from Lucina and Dark Pit, who were special cases) were designed with a unique "theme" in mind. Palutena's was to have a versatile fighting style with her custom move options based around the assortment of powers available in Uprising.

And for Dark Pit? Like Dr. Mario, Lucina, Alph, and the Koopalings, he was added to be a costume for Pit. Is it really biased that he was among that list? Or is it more that Dark Pit being a costume was a no-brainer, even compared to the others?

Being added as a separate character later like Dr. Mario and Lucina was also not a reason of bias, but rather because someone (i.e. not Sakurai) made the Electroshock Arm for him to use and because he was meant to use the Dark Pit Staff for his Final Smash rather than the Three Sacred Treasures.

I'm on mobile now so I'll go back into depth on this later tonight but I never meant to insinuate that Palutena's trait, as it were, was due to bias only. It's not. Palutena's was meant to express the inclusion of customs. I get that. Nor was I saying that Dark Pit was included solely because of bias. What I'm saying is that if/when a moment would arise when say one character had to be chosen over another in some form Sakurai AND his team probably would have leaned more towards Kid Icarus due to their attachment to said franchise because they poured their love into that franchise previously. I'd go into more detail with examples and such but mobile is a tough way to post. So, for now we can agree to disagree. Maybe I can sway you a little bit to see my side whenever I get home as I am agreeing with you, just not completely.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

One of these is not like the other.

Not like you want to address the puppet in the room.

Geno's birthday was a couple weeks ago, so he deserves no acknowledgement.

And just because Sakurai is Geno fanboy, doesn't mean he is a shoo-in. That title is best reserved for the Ice Climbers and Inkling.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Come on guys, you dodged my best question, would Takamaru offer more as a character than Daisy?

And sorry God Robert, I kind off can really price together your article. Unless him as an archetypal "Quick Draw Zoner" draws in an interesting gimmick.

I've always envisioned Takamaru having a sheathed sword fighting style so that alone makes unique to the rest of the sword users. Plus he is projectile heavy in his game so there's also that to take into account. But yes, Takamaru definitely has more potential to be unique than Daisy.

In all honesty Sword users are in fact becoming very similar. Most of that actually comes from this game too. Before, there were obvious differences between Marth, Ike, and Link. Now it seems all sword users are using those 3 as a base. Shulk and Cloud borrow from Ike quite a bit. Corrin and Roy, obviously, borrows from Marth. While Link has yet to have someone that's strictly similar to him we definitely need some diversity in the future sword users. Because as of right now, 'too many sword users' might become a valid argument. Luckily we have Robin to kinda break the mold a bit.

 

[_Sheik]

I'll try my best to do it in a reasonable manner like you asked. Let me do this by making a long comparison. Sorry @Opossum, but I'll be picking on Chrom for a bit to make my point.

If you read through Sakurai's Famitsu article "Are The Characters Dancing?", you'll see that Sakurai has a very particular way of selecting characters that go into Smash Bros. Chrom in particular was his example of a character that does have the ability to fight, but lacks any qualities that would have made him stand out. While things like a Pair Up mechanic or stance change using swords and lances would have been possible, they aren't core to who Chrom is, just mechanics from a game Chrom has appeared in. Chrom, in his core, is a Falchion-wielder that prefers swift, heavy blows with his sword-fighting skills. If Chrom--not "Fire Emblem Representative #4"--fought in Smash Bros. like he would in his games, he wouldn't have stood out in Smash Bros.'s roster whatsoever. To quote Sakurai:

The movesets in Smash speak for the most part of how these characters would fight in their games. Robin, for example, has no other important character in Fire Emblem combines sword-play with the use of tome magic, all while managing the handicap of a breakable weapon system. He doesn't use the Pair Up as the basis of his moveset, only his Final Smash. The other Lords of Fire Emblem never really have to mind with their legendary blades breaking, which is why he stands with a handicap of losing his weapons from too much use. None of this stretches out what he's like as a character and individual, because fighting this way in Smash is just like how he would in his actual games, both in gameplay and lore. This is why he was chosen over Chrom, who, despite having every potential to be in Smash Bros., lacked the one thing Robin has that he doesn't: a solid concept of his own. Robin's "Tactical Magical Swordsman" versus Chrom's "Marth but more like Ike"--are you even going to argue who stands out in this scenario? The only way something like Chrom's "Pair Up Fighter" would come about is if we ignore what he is first and foremost, turning a blind eye to countless support conversations and events in Awakening's story, and looked at him as part of a duo the way he can be rather than as the more aggressive successor to the Falchion that he always is and always will be.

Compare this to countless other fighters in Smash Bros., whose concept alone is not only theirs alone of the possible candidates of their series, but already speaks plenty for how they'd fight before you ever hear the moveset. Villager's "Pedestrian Pragmatist", Little Mac's "Stay Grounded and Punish" and WFT's "Fighting to Work-Out" versus Daisy's "Tomboy Flower Power". You know by hearing all of these that Villager would use an unusually non-combative style (like he does in his non-combative game), Little Mac would use a lot of patience in holding his ground before going for a hard blow (again, the entire basis of his gameplay in Punch-Out) and Wii Fit Trainer would strike up a lot of moves with long hit-boxes and quick-succession on part of their stretching and emphasis on exercise (which in itself is a stretch based on their reception in Smash, but still stays true to their practices within their game).

Which brings me into the next topic. These are not only true to their characters in both gameplay and lore, but look at the characters around them--of those around them, who would sensibly do the same things they do? Further more, of those characters who do the same thing, who would make sense to put in Smash first? The Villager and Little Mac are far from the only characters of their series to do what they do, but as the main protagonists of their series, they get first priority over their friends and rivals. They do these things in Smash not because their series often does it, however, but because it's precisely what they do in those series, and by extension, what the other characters in Smash don't do as well. Same with Robin, who would sensibly be put in before another Magical Swordsman in the Fire Emblem series for reasons of being one of the main characters. Compare again back to Chrom, who unlike these other characters, didn't get in because what he as an individual not only doesn't shine next to the other characters in Smash, but also doesn't even shine within his own series, where sword-fighting Lords are dime a dozen and we have a solid variety that already cover both elegant and gritty styles.

Now, all of this talk of Chrom? All of it applies directly onto Daisy. All of it.

Sakurai will add a character based on the character itself and what they would feasibly do. For the same reason you wouldn't hand Balloon Fighter a harpoon and rope and say "Here you go, now you can fight in Smash Bros.!", Sakurai wouldn't simply give Daisy an arbitrary party dice-rolling mechanic. Nor a tennis ball to follow around. Nor a motor-bike to ride or a Mario Land power-up to use or just growing flowers out of the ground--that's not what Daisy is about. Daisy isn't about these spin-off games. Daisy isn't even the main character of these spin-off games let alone the sole user of their mechanics. Core to Daisy herself, she is a tomboy princess that parallels Peach's girly girl. She's the royalty of a kingdom that essentially no longer exists in any Mario games in the last couple decades, and she sometimes does a thing and a flower particle effect appears. If you don't ride off entirely turning her moveset into just Mario spin-off things that aren't even exclusive to her, all you have is a Peach clone with slightly more perky and unyielding animations. And that's the problem, being a tomboy and generating flower effects alone doesn't translate into being a moveset. She's in the same circumstance as Chrom lacking a moveset-driving talent, but now additionally lacking the hierarchy of being a main character to back it up.

What usually happens because of this critical flaw is that Daisy supporters will look to these Mario spin-off titles to fill in all of these gaps... But the issue that a majority of her supporters will look past because of her personality is left staring the rest of us in the face. A character shouldn't be comprised of these many gaps in the first place, because if their moveset is just left to fill in their character rather than any substance truly of their own, how on earth is that worth a spot over other choices that do come into the game doing things they can call their own?

tl;dr
Characters are characters, not faces merely to represent mechanics. If the character can't be a character and still be unique, they're not an interesting choice for a character. In a word, mechanically speaking, Daisy offers very little. In Sakurai's words, she doesn't dance.

...man. If this was a movie I'd watched, that sudden comparison between Chrom and Daisy would have been so much of a plot twist that I'd have fallen off my chair.

I'm actually speechless. I was in awe at your analysis, not realizing you were bashing Chrom all that time - and BOOM! What's happening? Daisy getting absolutely DESTROYED. Like, knocked out of the park for good. And to conclude your post with such grace, all while reusing Sakurai's own shenanigans to checkmate the other party... I am just speechless.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't particularly support Daisy and can think of at least a dozen characters I want to see get in before she does. But I'm not against a new Nintendo character, especially because much like @Diddy Kong, I hate all that third-party bias recently. People here have proven that a moveset can be made from the ground up, and/or break canon, but I have little faith in Sakurai changing his clone policy (why make Daisy a very agreeable surprise addition with a full-fledged moveset of her own when the cheapest and easiest way that comes not only to Sakurai's mind, but also to all of ours, is to make her a Peach expy?) anytime soon. I always have a sour taste in my mouth when I see the sheer amount of clones in Smash. (Star Fox reps for example)

I must question one point in your analysis though, but before I do, I must thank you for giving me clearer hindsight on Sakurai's methods which I had always wondered about (but then again I never bothered to read his Famitsu articles fr some reason).

Someone above pointed about that comparing Lucina to Daisy was very fair seeing that their only defining factor was their popularity.
But at what point does Lucina dance more than Daisy does?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Someone above pointed about that comparing Lucina to Daisy was very fair seeing that their only defining factor was their popularity.
But at what point does Lucina dance more than Daisy does?

Being a waifu for casuals that never seen the best girls of old Fire Emblem.

I've always envisioned Takamaru having a sheathed sword fighting style so that alone makes unique to the rest of the sword users. Plus he is projectile heavy in his game so there's also that to take into account. But yes, Takamaru definitely has more potential to be unique than Daisy.

In all honesty Sword users are in fact becoming very similar. Most of that actually comes from this game too. Before, there were obvious differences between Marth, Ike, and Link. Now it seems all sword users are using those 3 as a base. Shulk and Cloud borrow from Ike quite a bit. Corrin and Roy, obviously, borrows from Marth. While Link has yet to have someone that's strictly similar to him we definitely need some diversity in the future sword users. Because as of right now, 'too many sword users' might become a valid argument. Luckily we have Robin to kinda break the mold a bit.

So with just that, Tethu and Rex from Xenoblade 2 are deconfirmed.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

IMO Tethu is best reserved as an Assist Trophy,

Still sure that Homura and Hikari are far more popular than the likes of Rex.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Sorry that was meant to sound more lighthearted and humorous than it did. He's got good points that do need to be addressed for Daisy to be included as a fighter.
To be honest there's no way to get me to stop wanting Daisy in smash. She could be in a T pose with nothing but a spin as an attack and I'd be crying tears of joy at her inclusion.
I'm living for this character drama though. There's like 3 fistfights going on here at once it's incredible.

This whole idea of a T pose with a single spinning attack is so amazingly odd, I almost want it. x)

The comment about certain characters catering to casuals hurts a bit on a personal level. I'm not going to focus too deeply on that, especially since I'm not entirely sure of the light that was presented in (it seemed a bit derogatory to me, but if I'm wrong, I apologize), but it should be noted that Wii Fit has often been used in hospitals and among the very ill. A lot of said people have had multitudes of gaming experience because of not being able to do much else, and like someone else already pointed out, while Wii Fit Trainer was a "Haha!" moment for the public when he/she was revealed, not many of the "moms" who were in to Wii Fit were going to pick up the game just because the character was there. In reality, a lot of the Smash fans who wanted Wii Fit Trainer were not casuals in the least in their interests or level of experience, and some had a very personal connection with Wii Fit Trainer as an aid to recovery, making it a very exciting reveal.

Now about Daisy, guess I'm a little lukewarm about the whole thing. She could get in, I'd be happy for her and her fans, and then at the same time she could just stay out and I'd be happy for whoever else gets in instead. However, I do know for a fact that her more spunky demeanor does appeal to many, so she definitely would fill a personality void in the character roster in a similar way to Dark Pit. As to her moveset, well, I really have no idea which way it'd go when considering what others have already pointed out in previous posts, but if she wound up having to be a semi-clone of Peach to get in, I would still say she could fill a gap. Thing is, like in the case of my niece, she likes both Peach and Daisy, however, she finds Peach's float mechanics very difficult to deal with, so it might be nice for some if Daisy could play the Lucina/Ness/Mario role a bit in being a better entry point than their counterparts while still being interesting as a main? She wouldn't have to be insanely easy, I'm just saying that option could fill a void for some who find Peach just waaaay too difficult to even get in to.

 

[Deleted member]

I know we really haven't seen much of Xenoblade 2 and Rex, but I have a gut feeling that he might end up being a last-minute (semi-)clone of Shulk if he's ever added.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Someone above pointed about that comparing Lucina to Daisy was very fair seeing that their only defining factor was their popularity.
But at what point does Lucina dance more than Daisy does?

And that is a plot twist in its own right, courtesy of the twisted writer Masahiro Sakurai himself.

Lucina herself was originally planned to be an alternate costume for Marth, meaning that regardless of what happened to anyone else during development, as long as Marth was in the game, Lucina was going to be too.

Then Sakurai and his team ran into crunch-time and realized that they don't have enough time to create another full-fledged character. They would be able to make several clones within that time period, so long as they had a model they could easily just hand a set of already-made animations.

"Hmm, well, we already have that Lucina alternate costume made for Marth. Her voice lines are done. Let's just slap it onto a new character ID, tweak her taunt animations, and change the property of her Falchion to lack a tipper-mechanic!" said the mash potato samurai.

"We have time fer a few other characters if we do that lil' amount of work on em', too. Whaddya think, boss?" said his inexplicably accented co-developer.

"Eh, just use the Dr. Mario and Dark Pit alternates as well. We'll do Alph if we have time after that." replied the massive-hero soccer guy.

And they didn't have time for Alph. The end.

So long story short, she got in solely through the circumstances of development. If she wasn't already extremely easy to implement by that point, Lucina never would have been added as a character. The same goes for both of the other clones in Smash 4.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The comment about certain characters catering to casuals hurts a bit on a personal level. I'm not going to focus too deeply on that, especially since I'm not entirely sure of the light that was presented in (it seemed a bit derogatory to me, but if I'm wrong, I apologize), but it should be noted that Wii Fit has often been used in hospitals and among the very ill. A lot of said people have had multitudes of gaming experience because of not being able to do much else, and like someone else already pointed out, while Wii Fit Trainer was a "Haha!" moment for the public when he/she was revealed, not many of the "moms" who were in to Wii Fit were going to pick up the game just because the character was there. In reality, a lot of the Smash fans who wanted Wii Fit Trainer were not casuals in the least in their interests or level of experience, and some had a very personal connection with Wii Fit Trainer as an aid to recovery, making it a very exciting reveal.

Don't mind him, some Smash fans don't face the facts that Smash gets most of its sales from the casual fanbase and non-gamers no matter how hard they twist it. If Smash was made with only hardcore fans and gamers in mind, half of the roster wouldn't exist. Same can be said about items not being a thing since they exist For Fun. While those that want to be competitive can chose to Fight For Glory without use items and focus on your own personal skill with the character.

Then again, I would personally apologize for that bloke's rude behavior if it came off as unwelcoming. Some poll need to learn that Nintendo wouldn't be where they were or Smash fi it warrant for casuals. Hell, we all used to be casuals when we were kids and suck at video games alot. Wi Fit Trainer's got more than enough merit for her inclusion despite being from a quote on quote "casual series". Same can be said for new Fire Emblem fans whether they get into the series because of Smash (hence Corrin and Roy) or because of Fire Emblem Heroes.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Don't mind him, some Smash fans don't face the facts that Smash gets most of its sales from the casual fanbase and non-gamers no matter how hard they twist it. If Smash was made with only hardcore fans and gamers in mind, half of the roster wouldn't exist. Same can be said about items not being a thing since they exist For Fun. While those that want to be competitive can chose to Fight For Glory without use items and focus on your own personal skill with the character.

Then again, I would personally apologize for that bloke's rude behavior if it came off as unwelcoming. Some poll need to learn that Nintendo wouldn't be where they were or Smash fi it warrant for casuals. Hell, we all used to be casuals when we were kids and suck at video games alot. Wi Fit Trainer's got more than enough merit for her inclusion despite being from a quote on quote "casual series". Same can be said for new Fire Emblem fans whether they get into the series because of Smash (hence Corrin and Roy) or because of Fire Emblem Heroes.

I think I spoke out of turn here, it's just that, like I said, it did seem a bit rude/derogatory and caught me on a personal level. There's nothing wrong with casual players, to be sure; they DO make up the majority of consumers. If competitive players were the only consideration here, Melee would have been the foundation on which all other Smash games would be built (but as you say, none of us were competitive when we started playing Melee either, at least those of us who were playing it from the beginning; the competitive scene took quite a bit of time to develop). I just don't think characters necessarily have to be viewed as catering solely to a casual or competitive group; there are plenty of hardcore gamers who play games created mainly for the casual scene. I believe Nintendo generally aims for a wide appeal in any case (more sales if everyone is happy), even if they miss the mark at times.

When it comes to the casual audience, I would think big names and nostalgia are key? Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man are all so well known. A name like Wii Fit Trainer would seem to attract more of a niche interest, not the kind of interest that's actually going to sell a ton of Smash games. Maybe I'm wrong. Also, final smashes seem to be a big factor; can't tell you how many tweets were flying in my feed about final smashes among those who would be more along the lines of being casual players.

 

[N3ON]

I see I missed much of the Daisy conversation, and while I would've liked to interject, as I do, with my big mouth and all the nonsense that tends to flow from it, God Robert's Cousin did a stellar job at saying pretty much all I would've been able to say, but better.

Don't mind him, some Smash fans don't face the facts that Smash gets most of its sales from the casual fanbase and non-gamers no matter how hard they twist it. If Smash was made with only hardcore fans and gamers in mind, half of the roster wouldn't exist. Same can be said about items not being a thing since they exist For Fun. While those that want to be competitive can chose to Fight For Glory without use items and focus on your own personal skill with the character.

Then again, I would personally apologize for that bloke's rude behavior if it came off as unwelcoming. Some poll need to learn that Nintendo wouldn't be where they were or Smash fi it warrant for casuals. Hell, we all used to be casuals when we were kids and suck at video games alot. Wi Fit Trainer's got more than enough merit for her inclusion despite being from a quote on quote "casual series". Same can be said for new Fire Emblem fans whether they get into the series because of Smash (hence Corrin and Roy) or because of Fire Emblem Heroes.

I agree that the casual audience does not receive the degree of credence from the hardcore that it may merit, given it is overwhelmingly the silent majority and primary reason Smash is allowed the exposure, budget, and series security it is, in fact I often argue in the casual's favour when I see them being ignored... but I really don't see how "half" the roster would cease to exist without them. Wii Fit Trainer, the Miis, and maybe Jigglypuff are the only characters I think may not have found their way on to the roster without their casual appeal. All the other characters with a large casual audience have crossover appeal, whereby their audience is not mutually exclusive to either the casual nor the hardcore. The Mario characters, for example, have their fair share of diehard fans as well. Though I do agree about the items.

On the other hand, I believe if solely the casual were catered to, whereby roster creation of Smash mirrored that of Mario Kart more closely - that is when I could see... maybe not half, but certainly a large portion of the roster being absent, probably to be replaced by more characters from only the most prominent series. Mother, F-Zero, Kid Icarus, Xenoblade, most/all retros, Fire Emblem (until very recently), Bayonetta, maybe Pikmin... these are things that would not have much if any representation on a roster dictated primarily by the casual.

 

[Kirbeh]

God Robert's Cousin and FalKoopa

Spoiler

Fantastic responses and all very well put points.

Wall of text hidden to consume less space.

Spoiler

As a Daisy supporter, I've always been of the mind that clone status is Daisy's only true chance of getting into Smash (unless they randomly decide she matters and give her a bigger role in an actual mainline Mario game), and honestly, I'd be perfectly happy with that. I know many other Daisy fans try to add stuff from Strikers and other spin-offs, but if any character is going to fit the role of spin-off amalgam I do think that Waluigi is best suited for it.

I know that that sounds like it contradicts what I said earlier, but I'm also someone who thinks that clones are still unique despite borrowing a lot from other characters. It's the small differences they bring to change the way you play an otherwise familiar moveset that I've always enjoyed, not just in Smash, but in Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, Skullgirls, and most every other fighting game I've played.

To clarify though, I don't want too many clones either as that would bloat the roster and take away from all the characters who happen to play similarly. A point that I think has been reached with Fire Emblem already, as we have both a clone and semi clone of Marth in the from of Lucina and Roy respectively.

Back to Daisy though, I don't think she has much to offer that could convince anyone who isn't already a fan. At the same time, many Daisy supporters are dead set on trying to reach for unique concepts to stretch out as a means of saying she does have more to offer. I don't think fans of Daisy or other similar characters (or the community at large), should be so opposed to the idea of clones when they can still offer something different. Similar? Yes. Familiar? Yes. But different enough to make them fun to play, and different enough that they can't be played the same way despite the sense of familiarity.

Again, we should of course be wary about bloating the roster with too many clones, but for certain characters, being a clone is kind of a characteristic of their character that would allow them to fit into Smash just fine. Let's not forget there are a few Luigi's out there aside from Mr. Green Mario himself. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I don't a small hanful of additional clones would hurt, especially with how big of a roster we've got already.

Daisy is to Peach, as Luigi is to Mario so I think that's really the best route to take. I'd still like to see Alph promoted beyond costume status given that he was the only one of the costume clones that didn't make it. The Rock Pikmin could easily set him apart from Olimar. And I know people will likely take issue with more third parties, let alone third party clones, but Ken, Ms. Pac-Man, and even Jeanne are already characters that play extremely similar to the one's their playing second fiddle to, while still having something to offer that would make them unique to play if not unique in concept.

These past couple pages have been great a discussion to read through though, and also serve as good motivation to speed up the moveset concepts I'm been working on that when finished will hopefully better express what I'm trying to say. I've rambled on for long enough, though.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'm kind of inclined to analyze the more popular characters that people want based off of God Robert's Cousin analysis, which by the way ****ing bravo man, that was damn impressive.

Of course, Inkling sticks out as a character who very well fits the analysis so I think they're safe to assume, even more so, are coming.

But the others are a really mixed bag. Isaac, K. Rool, Ridley, Snake, Wolf, and Ice Climbers are some of the most popular I have found and thus wonder how GRC's analysis translates to each of these if at all.

I'll start with Ice Climbers because, why not? I think it's obvious that Sakurai was very lamented on having to cut the IC's and aside from that as characters in the game I don't think anyone else can even come close to doing what they do.

Wolf is a weird one. As much as Sakurai hates cuts, Wolf was cut. No one knows why but Sakurai discussed how he didn't want to sell cut characters as DLC and make people think that they were locking stuff away just to sell it. I honestly can't say for Wolf. He was well unique enough as a character himself and that fact he did make it in in the first place speaks volumes. If we get an enhanced port I think he'd be more likely. Otherwise, as much of a fan as I am for Wolf, I just don't know.

Snake. I have far too much to say about Snake. The fact he was cut for no given reason, the fact that he was wholly unique, and the fact that he is beloved by the fanbase. As much as people talked about characters from Advance Wars and such taking Snake's moveset, I don't think that would be respectable to those characters. If you want my honest opinion, I think Snake will be the Mewtwo of the next game. Port or whatever. Cut for one game, then brought back by fan demand.

Isaac does a lot of stuff in his games that other characters just can't do. However, the point is often made that draws parallels to Robin. Me and N3ON were talking about this earlier this week. Isaac uses a lot of Magic and tricks that Robin just doesn't have as a part of his moveset. Is that really enough to warrant his inclusion? I would think so. Who can really say though.

Now K. Rool. K.Rool has a few things going for him that COULD warrant his inclusion. The mechanic of switching personalities could meld well with K. Rool as it is a part of his character and always will be. That seems enough of a warrant to include him but what if he didn't have the personality gimmick going for him? Then what would he offer other than being a DK bad guy?

Oh Ridley, poor, poor Ridley. I don't know what to say about Ridley. I just don't. I'm not going to try to dive into the crater that is 'reasons why Ridley should/shouldn't be in Smash.' There's plenty of reasons why he should but Sakurai stated that he shouldn't. So I'll let you guys decide that one.

 

[N3ON]

I believe Takamaru would offer much more than Daisy. His traditional samurai/ninja hybrid swordplay isn't really like the European/fantasy-based swordwielders that populate most of the roster, plus he has shuriken, windmill swords, harnesses fire, lighting, and can turn invisible. Unlike Daisy, there aren't too many alternatives that can replicate what his character brings to the table.

His personality is that of cardboard, but that doesn't reflect the depth of his arsenal.

I'm kind of inclined to analyze the more popular characters that people want based off of God Robert's Cousin analysis, which by the way ****ing bravo man, that was damn impressive.

Of course, Inkling sticks out as a character who very well fits the analysis so I think they're safe to assume, even more so, are coming.

But the others are a really mixed bag. Isaac, K. Rool, Ridley, Snake, Wolf, and Ice Climbers are some of the most popular I have found and thus wonder how GRC's analysis translates to each of these if at all.

I'll start with Ice Climbers because, why not? I think it's obvious that Sakurai was very lamented on having to cut the IC's and aside from that as characters in the game I don't think anyone else can even come close to doing what they do.

Wolf is a weird one. As much as Sakurai hates cuts, Wolf was cut. No one knows why but Sakurai discussed how he didn't want to sell cut characters as DLC and make people think that they were locking stuff away just to sell it. I honestly can't say for Wolf. He was well unique enough as a character himself and that fact he did make it in in the first place speaks volumes. If we get an enhanced port I think he'd be more likely. Otherwise, as much of a fan as I am for Wolf, I just don't know.

Snake. I have far too much to say about Snake. The fact he was cut for no given reason, the fact that he was wholly unique, and the fact that he is beloved by the fanbase. As much as people talked about characters from Advance Wars and such taking Snake's moveset, I don't think that would be respectable to those characters. If you want my honest opinion, I think Snake will be the Mewtwo of the next game. Port or whatever. Cut for one game, then brought back by fan demand.

Isaac does a lot of stuff in his games that other characters just can't do. However, the point is often made that draws parallels to Robin. Me and N3ON were talking about this earlier this week. Isaac uses a lot of Magic and tricks that Robin just doesn't have as a part of his moveset. Is that really enough to warrant his inclusion? I would think so. Who can really say though.

Now K. Rool. K.Rool has a few things going for him that COULD warrant his inclusion. The mechanic of switching personalities could meld well with K. Rool as it is a part of his character and always will be. That seems enough of a warrant to include him but what if he didn't have the personality gimmick going for him? Then what would he offer other than being a DK bad guy?

Oh Ridley, poor, poor Ridley. I don't know what to say about Ridley. I just don't. I'm not going to try to dive into the crater that is 'reasons why Ridley should/shouldn't be in Smash.' There's plenty of reasons why he should but Sakurai stated that he shouldn't. So I'll let you guys decide that one.

Many characters can offer material unique to them that touches the core of that character is, but that alone isn't the only factor contingent on their inclusion.

In response to the part I was tagged in, Isaac has potential that I argue can rival any character in terms of vastness and depth. Robin skirts on the same theme as Isaac as a character utilizing both magic and swordplay, but doesn't really delve into anything Isaac need have included to do the character justice. Especially since Robin deals mostly in fire and electricity while Isaac specializes in earth stuff. And, I guess, giant hands. That's who Isaac is. He is capable of using fire and electricity, and if those were his primary methods of attack, then I could see some overlapping conflict, but at his core, he is an earth-bending swordsman who dabbles in the other elements. And, I guess, giant hands. If you want, you can even implement djinn in some sort of ammo or power-up mechanic. He also summons some crazy **** sometimes, but that'd probably be reserved for the FS. And, personality-wise, he is much like Takamaru: nothing to write home about, lol.

He can use axes and other weaponry, but much like Chrom and lances, that's not the crux of the character, and wouldn't be a faithful adaptation if that's what he did in Smash, even should it be more unique than another sword. From potential to set himself apart and be unique, while remaining faithful to how he would actually be implemented, does Isaac succeed? Absolutely, I would maintain more than most, and I don't think anyone who is actually knowledgable about the character would dispute that. However, in other important areas relevant to inclusion, he falters.

Because uniqueness/faithfulness by itself doesn't warrant inclusion. No character's uniqueness is enough to be the sole factor that allows them onto the roster, because many characters have the capacity to be unique while faithfully represented. It certainly is a boon, Robin getting in over Chrom is proof enough of that, but a character needs many beneficial qualities to get added: popularity, current prominence, general importance, feasibility, and, of course, potential. Not to mention there's also the politics of series representation. There's no one equation as to the quantity needed of each, because it varies, but a character can't get in on only one of those factors alone.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Remember when people actually argued that Impa would be a better samurai character than Takamaru just because of Hyrule Warriors and relevance?

This is not a joke, it was real.

 

[N3ON]

Remember when people actually argued that Impa would be a better samurai character than Takamaru just because of Hyrule Warriors and relevance?

This is not a joke, it was real.

That's weird mostly because I don't believe many people see Impa as a potential samurai character. Even in HW the weapons she uses are fairly incompatible with the ones Takamaru would use.

 

[Luminario]

Snake. I have far too much to say about Snake. The fact he was cut for no given reason, the fact that he was wholly unique, and the fact that he is beloved by the fanbase. As much as people talked about characters from Advance Wars and such taking Snake's moveset, I don't think that would be respectable to those characters. If you want my honest opinion, I think Snake will be the Mewtwo of the next game. Port or whatever. Cut for one game, then brought back by fan demand.

Isaac does a lot of stuff in his games that other characters just can't do. However, the point is often made that draws parallels to Robin. Me and N3ON were talking about this earlier this week. Isaac uses a lot of Magic and tricks that Robin just doesn't have as a part of his moveset. Is that really enough to warrant his inclusion? I would think so. Who can really say though.

Wasn't Snake cut cause Konami are *****? I really think that if Snake doesn't return again then an Advance Wars character should inherit some of his moveset, specifically the mine. They could even take the moveset further with sentries. It all fits with the general tactics of their series.
One of the things I miss most from Brawl is AT Isaac's Move cause he was so fun to summon. I wouldn't mind seeing him playable at all, but the fact he was removed from the game completely doesn't really inspire confidence.

Now that you guys have absolutely murdered Daisy, what do you think of Ashley as a playable character? She's a fan favourite, essentially the secondary protagonist of the WarioWare series (rivaled only by Mona in that regard), and going by God Robert's Cousin's post she does in fact dance pretty well as a debuffing witch.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For the poll question, I'd say 5-6 for a port. At most. 3-4 seems lowest, but we'll probably get the obvious missing veterans(IC's an Wolf) and more. I feel the most logical ones to add before we get into other possible 3rd parties or non-vets are Wolf, IC, and Inklings. Anything else after that doesn't seem obvious to me.

For a new game? Over 9 easily. Tons of potential.

 

[N3ON]

Now that you guys have absolutely murdered Daisy, what do you think of Ashley as a playable character? She's a fan favourite, essentially the secondary protagonist of the WarioWare series (rivaled only by Mona in that regard), and going by God Robert's Cousin's post she does in fact dance pretty well as a debuffing witch.

I think even though Sakurai would take liberties in fleshing her out, her core potential is unique and solid. I mostly just question the likelihood of getting another Wario character in a time where the output of Wario games seem to be diminishing.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Wasn't Snake cut cause Konami are *****? I really think that if Snake doesn't return again then an Advance Wars character should inherit some of his moveset, specifically the mine. They could even take the moveset further with sentries. It all fits with the general tactics of their series.

Not exactly, because Konami wasn't being '*****' until WELL into Smash 4's development. There really is no evidence to why exactly he was removed because, as stated multiple times in the old Snake Thread, Kojima literally told Sakurai 'Please use Snake'. It could have been Nintendo's overall disapproval of the character, Sakurai's choice to not pursue Konami for the character, or Konami not pursuing Nintendo to add the character (Apparently SEGA did that with Sonic?). There's nothing anywhere evidencing Konami being assholes and not wanting to bring in the character. If I recall they even liked some of the 'Vote Snake' posts that were flying around during the ballot.

On Ashley, I feel if WarioWare did get another representative it would be Ashley. I don't see her particularly likely though.

 

[Luminario]

I think even though Sakurai would take liberties in fleshing her out, her core potential is unique and solid. I mostly just question the likelihood of getting another Wario character in a time where the output of Wario games seem to be diminishing.

Good point. While 1,2,Switch shows off the potential for a new WarioWare Switch game, it would have to be in development for some time for Ashley to get that spike in relevancy if the new smash switch is currently being developed too.

Not exactly, because Konami wasn't being '*****' until WELL into Smash 4's development. There really is no evidence to why exactly he was removed because, as stated multiple times in the old Snake Thread, Kojima literally told Sakurai 'Please use Snake'. It could have been Nintendo's overall disapproval of the character, Sakurai's choice to not pursue Konami for the character, or Konami not pursuing Nintendo to add the character (Apparently SEGA did that with Sonic?). There's nothing anywhere evidencing Konami being ******** and not wanting to bring in the character. If I recall they even liked some of the 'Vote Snake' posts that were flying around during the ballot.

On Ashley, I feel if WarioWare did get another representative it would be Ashley. I don't see her particularly likely though.

Ah, it was just a false rumor then. As out of place I felt Snake was in smash I do kinda miss him and his playstyle.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Thank you, everyone. I honestly didn't think a post dissecting why Chrom wasn't picked would have reached so many accolades.

To give my take on each of those characters using the same kind of analysis, NonSpecificGuy :

Spoiler: I'll just tuck all this in right here...

Snake, Wolf and Ice Climbers are more or less moot in the context of whether or not they dance because, well, we saw all three of them dance perfectly well in Brawl. The bigger question would be whether or not Sakurai sees it necessary to change up their dance routines, but overall we definitely know their potential. "Heavy-Weapons Expert", "Wolfenized Space Animal", and "Icy Fighting Duo" are all concepts that worked in execution to varying degrees, and while I personally think some of them could have been refined more (which they would have been if they made it through a second design process like any other Smash 4 veteran did), they absolutely function well for what they're trying to be and stand out as a result. The only character here I'm curious about is the Ice Climbers, as the two are far from inseparable in their actual game, yet Sakurai included them only after failing to see other NES characters dance and deciding to take a creative liberty with these two. It'd be interesting to hear his stance on them if such information doesn't already exist.

Isaac stands from Robin in many ways, in that while Robin's magic is derived from tomes and isn't innate to himself, Isaac is an adept in Venus Psynergy, or rather, controls Earth-magic completely on a whim. Where as Robin tries to use a variety of types of magic tomes for many offensive specials, Isaac focuses solely on Venus Psynergy to have have only one type of magic that provides for a variety of utilitarian specials. Isaac is an overall balanced character with the highest attack and agility of all his party members in Golden Sun, and in comparison to Robin, would play as a magical swordsman with greater consistency, more utility in his specials, and faster movement, but would have both less magical strength overall and less weight to endure attacks with.

Isaac himself stands out from the rest of the cast (and especially other swordsmen) in the prospect of being an avid summoner of Djinn. In Golden Sun, Djinn are normally equipped like equipment to raise your stats and allow additional spells to be used in battle. Whenever Isaac uses one of his spells or special summon moves, the respective Djinn will fly out of him to do the deed, but now leave him exposed without the stat buffs they provided until they return a few turns later. This makes Isaac, though the rest of his series as well, a much higher risk-reward type of magic-user that creates strategy in knowing when not to use a move just as much as when to use it. Where Robin would be about resource management, Isaac would be much more about risk management. All of that on top of Isaac's overall rock-and-plant magic basis and tendency to use Psynergy as a puzzle-solving tool as often as a method of combat absolutely makes him stand out as a character. If I were to put it simply, if an inverted Cloud and a Robin had a love-child, and that love-child had paired with the love-child of a Ness and a Link, Isaac would be that love-child of the love-children. I'd just call him a "Risky Utilitarian Magic Swordsman" for a concept. I certainly hope the four words alone speak out for his type of dance.

K. Rool is understandably harder than the others, but I believe in the potential he has as well. His highly unstable personality and tendency to use tools and gimmicks over his raw strength (which, given how much he dwarfs DK, is plenty) speaks plenty for his character: He is a Bowser-archetype villain that instead tries to play the role of Dr. Wily or Dr. Eggman. A King Dedede that goes a few tiers below Grinch into downright Ridley-level ruthlessness (with the violence restraints of the toony-vibed Donkey Kong Country). He stays pragmatic in his approach (wearing a pointed crown so he can't be jumped on, even rolling the credits just to psych-out the player), yet leaves himself open in classic cases of Boss Arena Idiocy and Tactical Suicide Attacks. In a phrase, K. Rool is one wacky ****ing villain.

This strange mixture of ingenuity and wackiness gives K. Rool a flavor of his own. Having used weapons like his crown and his blunderbuss to attack from distances, turning his own attacks into obstacles of the very boss arena itself in the form of barrels and gas balls, and likewise having an abnormally fast speed for someone of his size, K. Rool stays true to his character and fulfills a role in Smash Bros. as a "Keep-Away Kombo-Bait". He's hard to kill with his heavy weight and harder yet with his zoning tools and fast dash speed, but as soon as he lets someone up close, being too unaware of his brute strength if he's not jumping on you or wearing boxing gloves, K. Rool becomes extremely easy to combo into high percents. While all of the other heavy-weight characters use their large builds to their full advantage, K. Rool pushes a double-barrel shotgun into Ganondorf's arms and says "You're Samus now, now run FAR AWAY, you fool!" If that doesn't speak for one of the most unique possible heavy-weights the series will ever get, I have no idea how to convince you that K. Rool doesn't have two left feet.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just a few things to note; Not every move will be specific to a character, but often taken from a notable game they're in. Zelda's specials are not something she used outside of one move at best. The rest was made up. This isn't a bad thing. Daisy getting stuff specifically from the Mario Land series wouldn't be necessarily bad, but I do agree that she needs her own unique abilities that feel like they're hers.

As for Wolf's cut, he also barely made it into Brawl and it wasn't even known yet or advertised he'd be in Star Fox Zero, which also got delayed a lot. So even if they wanted to promote SFZ, it was pretty hard to do at that point. He was a low priority character. If SFZ wasn't constantly delayed, he likely would've been in to promote it at the time. Of course, a good point is that Slippy would also work to promote Star Fox Guard. I think Wolf is more popular of the two, so he makes sense as the choice among the two to put in.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If you want an idea of how Takamuru could play in Smash look at Silver Samurai in Marvel vs Capcom 2/Children of the Atom.

 

[FalKoopa]

You know, I should get to making the Ashley thread and the Lyn thread.

Ashley is bit of an odd case, to be honest. The WarioWare series has been in a bit of a lull lately after Game & Wario's disappointing sales (though imo it was more due to the Wii U than the game itself.)

But, unlike the other WarioWare characters, Ashley does keep seeing promotion through other games - Most notably the Badge Arcade. Nintendo and Japan clearly have a soft spot for her.

Outside of Wario himself, she's easily the most visible character from the WarioWare games. And while she doesn't do a whole lot of stuff in the WarioWare games, her design and the things she does are really easy to expand upon.

You've got a magic wand, a flying broom and the best part, a stand. Yes, Little Red could very well be incorporated in her moveset as a stand, like Zelda's Down B.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Speaking of Wario series, I hope Wario Land gets more representation in Smash Switch (it deserves more than a single music track). Although I don't think it's very likely, as last Wario Land game was released almost decade ago...

 

[wedl!!]

I'm currently pondering whether or not to make a Heihachi thread.

I am going to find it quite ironic if we ever came to a point where people started complaining about us getting too many female/villain characters or that Sakurai has a DK/Metroid bias.

If someone says that, you know automatically their tastes are suspect.

On the subject of Bayonetta, I wonder what it means when it come to third parties and their criteria for Smash.

She's far from iconic and her games don't sell as much as the other third party inclusions, but that is fine. I think the Smash Ballot and Kamiya's relationship with Sakurai makes it a special case for now. Doesn't mean we would get a bunch of nobodies like Ty the Tasmanian Tiger (it's a bloody shame the game never got Japanese releases) and 2B from Nier Automata.

ah, yes, two very related characters; 2B, the star of a recent RPG that scored in the high 80s on Metacritic and has a massive following for what is the sequel to a niche Japanese game, and Ty, the incredibly forgettable protagonist of a 6th generation Crash wannabe

 

[A Distant Demon]

I'm currently pondering whether or not to make a Heihachi thread.

ponder no more
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-king-of-iron-fist-heihachi-mishima.446559/#post-21695380

sorry.

 

[wedl!!]

ponder no more
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-king-of-iron-fist-heihachi-mishima.446559/#post-21695380

sorry.

oh! nice.

somehow I didn't see that prior. lol

 

[IntelliHeath1]

I do not mind to see this feature in Smash Bros so it would give camera feature more purpose to use.

 

[Deleted member]

I do not mind to see this feature in Smash Bros so it would give camera feature more purpose to use.

Oh God, the Luigi Death Stare and the DK Expand Dong Face.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If anyone is interested, I recently made a support thread for Pheromosa. I find that it's probably one of the very few 7th generation Pokemon who could work as a playable character, especially when you take into account the Beast Boost ability.

 

[Zerp]

Has Pheromosa been banned from OU yet?

Honestly, I think there's a very large amount Gen 7 Pokémon that could work, although I'd argue in her favor that Pheromosa's one of the few that makes sense to be included and one of the few that's somewhat likely to make it.

 

[Deleted member]

If anyone is interested, I recently made a support thread for Pheromosa. I find that it's probably one of the very few 7th generation Pokemon who could work as a playable character, especially when you take into account the Beast Boost ability.

Great, now I feel obligated to make a Buzzwole thread.
I just barely handle the Incineroar thread.....

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I would personally argue that the main front-runners for Generation 7 Pokemon would be Decidueye and Tapu Koko, as the former seems to be the most popular starter currently, while the latter is very much the poster-boy that prominently appears in the plot of Sun/Moon and frequently in the anime.

That said, I'm convinced that Decidueye's support solely comes from the same group of people that used to request Sceptile all the time. Wonder what happened to that. Moveset potential aside, I swear these people care more about the Grass-starters just because it forms an imaginary rock-paper-scissors in Smash than it does having anything to do with the character itself.

Tapu Koko is likewise a harder sell when Pikachu is kind of the forefront of Electric-type Pokemon already. His Electric Surge ability, Nature's Madness move, and traits of mixing quick speed with his protective "shell" give him some things to differentiate himself from Pikachu. A much greater defensive approach to Pikachu's offensive one. However, I still find it difficult to see Sakurai finding his inclusion necessary on part of Pikachu's niche being such a prominent one. "Electric Parrying Blitzer" isn't exactly the most unique thing around when "Electric Glass-Cannon Blitzer" is also a thing.