Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[SharkLord]

Do you think that Dark Dawn's version of Isaac would work as a loophole? He's visually distinct from the assist trophy, which seems like it would help.

Well, at least he'd be exempt from the "generic anime pretty boy" criticisms.
I'm kinda hoping a hypothetical Golden Sun remake will give Sakurai and excuse to just walk around the Assist Trophy problem with "It's a different design, ergo they have no major overlap."
Then again, he mentioned Spring Man's exclusion on the basis that Yakubi wanted Min Min, not that he was an Assist. I think that's something, at least.

 

[N3ON]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, barring a remake that changes his look, if Isaac gets in, it's going to be classic, teenager Isaac.

They're not going to opt against what is by far his most recognizable look for something pretty wildly different.

 

[Megadoomer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, barring a remake that changes his look, if Isaac gets in, it's going to be classic, teenager Isaac.

They're not going to opt against what is by far his most recognizable look for something pretty wildly different.

That's fair; I haven't played Dark Dawn, and I have no idea how well that design was received, but I thought I'd bring it up as a possibility.

 

[SonicLink125]

That's fair; I haven't played Dark Dawn, and I have no idea how well that design was received, but I thought I'd bring it up as a possibility.

Personally, I think Adult Isaac’s look is awesome! It looks practical, not over the top like most RPG protagonists, easy to cosplay in, and just looks cool! If I could, I would use that design with his classic look as an alt.

Edit: Also, we’d finally get another beard bro! Lol

 

[N3ON]

That's fair; I haven't played Dark Dawn, and I have no idea how well that design was received, but I thought I'd bring it up as a possibility.

I mean, it's not like the design was poorly received, it's just too different from Isaac's earlier look, which has pretty much become the face of the series. Plus Adult Isaac was just a supporting NPC, so it's not like he was nearly as prevalent in DD as teenage Isaac was in the earlier games.

It'd sort of be like giving Simon his Lords of Shadow look instead of either his classic one or the Kojima design.

 

[Monue]

Hello everyone, I'm new here as well! Brought here by the news of Min Min and what it might mean for Isaac, who I've been clamoring for in Smash since I played the original game, and Melee, what, around 16/17 years ago?

Anywhooo, I wasn't sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but I've been thinking about it, and honestly if they were going to upgrade an Assist Trophy then Isaac would be the perfect one to do it. He has two perfectly viable replacements for his trophy in Felix and Matthew.

A lot of people like to mention that they wouldn't upgrade Assists because 1) they put effort into them, and 2) it would take effort to replace them, which I feel they'd have to do because otherwise it kind of feels cheap to just up and lose an Assist. But it's not like they're unwilling to model new non-characters; look at the Three Houses map, or Terry's map, they're jam packed full of background characters!

Modeling Matthew or Felix, just one character, would be easy, and they wouldn't have to remake the animations because all three characters use the same push attacks in their game. They made like, what, twenty characters with basic animations for Terry's map?

Would a simple non-detailed model, without an animation change honestly be that difficult?

 

[StrawHatX]

I guess it’s possible if they’re making a sequel to Dark Dawn then Matthew would make the most sense as the playable character.

I don’t know. I’ll always support Isaac and continue to root for him, but I can’t help think he might just stick as an AT. Not because of that stupid fan rule because those aren’t actually rules (only REAL rule is no fourth party characters) but because I think Sakurai wouldn’t have made Isaac an AT if he thought it was possible he might make sense as playable later on.

Again, anything can happen and I’ll still root for him, but anything Golden Sun is my hope. Whether that’s a playable Smash character or just a new entry in the series (which I really want).

 

[Undella2]

As I've been away from the Smash speculation scene/video game stuff in general for the past couple of months due to college work and stress and whatnot, I was wondering, well...

How much of a success, relatively speaking, was the most recent Golden Sunday?

 

[SharkLord]

I mean, it's not like the design was poorly received, it's just too different from Isaac's earlier look, which has pretty much become the face of the series. Plus Adult Isaac was just a supporting NPC, so it's not like he was nearly as prevalent in DD as teenage Isaac was in the earlier games.

It'd sort of be like giving Simon his Lords of Shadow look instead of either his classic one or the Kojima design.

Agreed. He looks cool as all heck, but when you think Isaac, it's not what comes to mind first.

I guess it’s possible if they’re making a sequel to Dark Dawn then Matthew would make the most sense as the playable character.

I don’t know. I’ll always support Isaac and continue to root for him, but I can’t help think he might just stick as an AT. Not because of that stupid fan rule because those aren’t actually rules (only REAL rule is no fourth party characters) but because I think Sakurai wouldn’t have made Isaac an AT if he thought it was possible he might make sense as playable later on.

Again, anything can happen and I’ll still root for him, but anything Golden Sun is my hope. Whether that’s a playable Smash character or just a new entry in the series (which I really want).

To be fair, he didn't even intend to make DLC in the first place. Beyond the Echoes, the newcomers are split between recent rising stars and old fan favorites. He probably ran out of time or though Isaac wasn't quite popular enough, and so he was snowglobed as a consolation. The first pass was made with the base game Spirits and Assists in mind, and everyone had never appeared in Smash before anyways, so the Spirit rules didn't bother them too much. Now that we're getting a second pass, Sakurai could easily backpedal and give the deconfirmed a second chance, alongside one or two non-promotes like, say, Lloyd.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Don't see why people think Assists are a hard deconfirm now, it was pretty clear why Min Min got in over Spring Man. Heck Sakurai even asked about him, I doubt he would do that if he really cared that much about him being an Assist Trophy.

 

[FlawedAI]

As I've been away from the Smash speculation scene/video game stuff in general for the past couple of months due to college work and stress and whatnot, I was wondering, well...

How much of a success, relatively speaking, was the most recent Golden Sunday?

It was pretty good! We got tons of good fanart and memes, nothing huge but we got it decently trending.

 

[Kalaam]

Regarding Isaac DD design, it's not very surprising how much someone can change look in 30 years, even if he doesn't get old very fast. Maybe he actually changed look because Matthew looked a lot like him and he didn't want people to keep mistaking them for each other! And to look more "father like" to his son, rather than looking like he could be his big brother. They even mention it in game, Karis says "Whoa, imagine that at some point, we may look older than our parents!"
That's my headcanon for his beard.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Heck Sakurai even asked about him, I doubt he would do that if he really cared that much about him being an Assist Trophy.

Another thing I'm curious about: Was "he's an assist, he shouldn't be DLC" a thought only Mr. Yabuki had, and not Sakurai?

 

[WaddleMatt]

Another thing I'm curious about: Was "he's an assist, he shouldn't be DLC" a thought only Mr. Yabuki had, and not Sakurai?

I really doubt he cared to be honest.

 

[Kalaam]

Yeah, he was asked "who do you want" not "who do you want but springman". Why would he care.

 

[Cadillac]

Regarding Isaac DD design, it's not very surprising how much someone can change look in 30 years, even if he doesn't get old very fast. Maybe he actually changed look because Matthew looked a lot like him and he didn't want people to keep mistaking them for each other! And to look more "father like" to his son, rather than looking like he could be his big brother. They even mention it in game, Karis says "Whoa, imagine that at some point, we may look older than our parents!"
That's my headcanon for his beard.

It's the beard, I'm telling ya.

 

[Kalaam]

It's the beard, I'm telling ya.

The beard hides some secret magic. (also without it he looks a lot like his dad, so that may be why he grew it too)

 

[Cos.]

This was shared before, but it doesn't look like it got that much traction.
OC Remix - Golden Sun a World reignited
It's funny that Golden Sun was a really new game in the beginning ages of OC Remix... it's been some time. The trailer doesn't have that many few yet. I haven't seen too many Golden Sun Music remixes before so it will be cool to get an album with over 40 artists sharing in.
It's interesting to note that Motoi Sakuraba hasn't been working on all that many Video game soundtracks in the recent two years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motoi_Sakuraba
We can hope it's a further indicator for a new Golden Sun came with him as a composer(fingers crossed for a new game, and him as a composer)


Adult Isaac does look cooler, but Isaac is more iconic. But why not go the route of Ike and Cloud should he join Smash (well, I guess we would prefer the hero alt route )

 

[Nazyrus]

Don't see why people think Assists are a hard deconfirm now, it was pretty clear why Min Min got in over Spring Man. Heck Sakurai even asked about him, I doubt he would do that if he really cared that much about him being an Assist Trophy.

I saw it coming. Naysayers just want to make smash speculation boring, limited and impossible to enjoy. Upgrades are upgrades, i will have to say it daily apparently lol. Just the fact that an upgrade happened because they had a reason to do it, any other upgrade can also happen as long as there is a reason, be it a new game or just pure fan demand that they want to satisfy in particular cases. There is simply no other limitation (other than well… obviously we won't get upgrades from things that got spirited away during DLC Pass 1 in 2019 lol). Naysayers will twist it as long as they can until they are proven wrong till the very end, they are masochists I guess lol. Instead of… letting people enjoy the freaking game and hope for whatever they want.

As you just said, Spring man was considered, that alone throws naysayers stupid logic out of the window, doesn't matter if it didn't end happening because they rather pleased the producer's wishes. It simply just went that other way in this case

 

[Billybae10K]

So I went off a bit at the community for the toxic mentality of fanrules and how they gatekeep many smash fans from being able to enjoy speculation. And of course, I made my case for Assist Trophies, and why we shouldn't be discounting them.

 

[Nazyrus]

So I went off a bit at the community for the toxic mentality of fanrules and how they gatekeep many smash fans from being able to enjoy speculation. And of course, I made my case for Assist Trophies, and why we shouldn't be discounting them.

I couldn't have explained it better, even some good points I was missing to mention myself.

 

[Billybae10K]

Thinking about it, in a way, ARMS did get promoted from an assist.

Think about it this way - Before ARMS was promoted, what did it have in Smash? An assist trophy (Springman) and a few spirits.

What does Golden Sun currently have in Smash? An assist trophy (Isaac), a few spirits & music from past smash games.

Min Min gets upgraded to playable, effectively making a franchise locked behind the assist trophy barrier, represented in Smash, just with a different character.

So whether we want to hope for Isaac, or maybe Felix, we're basically running on the same upgrade path. The only difference being we probably need a new game to really justify Isaac's upgrade.

 

[clearandsweet]

This was shared before, but it doesn't look like it got that much traction.
OC Remix - Golden Sun a World reignited
It's funny that Golden Sun was a really new game in the beginning ages of OC Remix... it's been some time. The trailer doesn't have that many few yet. I haven't seen too many Golden Sun Music remixes before so it will be cool to get an album with over 40 artists sharing in.
It's interesting to note that Motoi Sakuraba hasn't been working on all that many Video game soundtracks in the recent two years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motoi_Sakuraba
We can hope it's a further indicator for a new Golden Sun came with him as a composer(fingers crossed for a new game, and him as a composer)


Adult Isaac does look cooler, but Isaac is more iconic. But why not go the route of Ike and Cloud should he join Smash (well, I guess we would prefer the hero alt route )

Yeah I'll be playing that entire album on loop as soon as it releases.

And even if we factor in Tales of Arise likely this year and likely him, Sakuraba's silence is noteworthy and impossible to oversell. He's been just as prolific and reliable as Camelot itself.

So I went off a bit at the community for the toxic mentality of fanrules and how they gatekeep many smash fans from being able to enjoy speculation. And of course, I made my case for Assist Trophies, and why we shouldn't be discounting them.

When you step back you kind of realize how stupid we allow ourselves to be. Comparisons to the other newcomers breaking rules are totally apt and really show that the true pattern is breaking established patterns.

Thanks for saying it. Lots of people need to hear it.

 

[Kalaam]

So far what that pass is showing is that it's taking characters from franchises that got very active during speculation phases and stayed consistent since then.
No matter whatever restriction there is, so far, that's the only thing that Pass 2 is saying. Fighter7 will confirm or not this trend

 

[TempestSurge]

I saw it coming. Naysayers just want to make smash speculation boring, limited and impossible to enjoy. Upgrades are upgrades, i will have to say it daily apparently lol. Just the fact that an upgrade happened because they had a reason to do it, any other upgrade can also happen as long as there is a reason, be it a new game or just pure fan demand that they want to satisfy in particular cases. There is simply no other limitation (other than well… obviously we won't get upgrades from things that got spirited away during DLC Pass 1 in 2019 lol). Naysayers will twist it as long as they can until they are proven wrong till the very end, they are masochists I guess lol. Instead of… letting people enjoy the freaking game and hope for whatever they want.

As you just said, Spring man was considered, that alone throws naysayers stupid logic out of the window, doesn't matter if it didn't end happening because they rather pleased the producer's wishes. It simply just went that other way in this case

As Nawgust pointed out in his post a page or so ago. This really was the perfect time for Sakurai to mention how Springman was never considered because of his assist. I could even see him making a joke about how 'Springman is already in the game so naturally we didn't choose him.' Yet that didn't happen.

Sakurai has come out and deconfirmed characters that would never happen, like all the Iron man and Goku requests. I don't see why he'd beat around the bush and not ever mention that he will not be considering assists when there's tons of fans requesting characters that are assist trophies. It just seems to show that Sakurai does not consider an assist upgrade some impossibility.

Also in the same way an assist gets an upgrade in the next game. Maybe Sakurai even thinks of the second pass as essentially the next game. We're getting six new characters which tends to be around the number of new franchises added to a Smash game. Min Min also looks as if she could have been a 'Smash 6' character, a completely unique moveset not done in Smash.

Though I'm not bothered with the speculative community anymore. Even if Springman got the assist upgrade. There would be more fan rules put in place. He's the only one, only cause his series not dead, Isaac isn't popular enough etc.

 

[Kalaam]

Yeah, when a character isn't possible he just says it. Like with Ridley, he said that he wouldn't be possible back then because of the size and that's why he would stay a boss. So when for some reason a character is not possible (at the time) he says so.
And EVEN THEN he found a way to make it work later on.

 

[PhantomShab]

Don't see why people think Assists are a hard deconfirm now, it was pretty clear why Min Min got in over Spring Man. Heck Sakurai even asked about him, I doubt he would do that if he really cared that much about him being an Assist Trophy.

Sakurai went in wanting that ninja guy. It doesn't seem like he was seriously considering adding Spring Man at any point tbh.

 

[Kalaam]

Sakurai went in wanting that ninja guy. It doesn't seem like he was seriously considering adding Spring Man at any point tbh.

Stop trying to read between the lines more than that, if Sakurai consider a character not doable for any reason, he says it.

 

[FlawedAI]

So I went off a bit at the community for the toxic mentality of fanrules and how they gatekeep many smash fans from being able to enjoy speculation. And of course, I made my case for Assist Trophies, and why we shouldn't be discounting them.

Brilliant video, you laid out the points excellently and refuted arguments against AT upgrades. Honestly, I kinda want this idiotic discourse to continue so that these people get bodied if (when?) Isaac is revealed. It'll be fun to see those guys wondering why their "fan rule" was defeated yet again, only to immediately come up with another one that'll be destroyed in due time.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Brilliant video, you laid out the points excellently and refuted arguments against AT upgrades. Honestly, I kinda want this idiotic discourse to continue so that these people get bodied if (when?) Isaac is revealed. It'll be fun to see those guys wondering why their "fan rule" was defeated yet again, only to immediately come up with another one that'll be destroyed in due time.

Hey, if there's several people who are convinced they're just going to go for the biggest third-parties after Byleth and Min Min, there's gonna be tons of people ignoring the non-AT reasons why Spring Man wasn't chosen.

 

[FlawedAI]

Hey, if there's several people who are convinced they're just going to go for the biggest third-parties after Byleth and Min Min, there's gonna be tons of people ignoring the non-AT reasons why Spring Man wasn't chosen.

Yeah, some people think that Sakurai's goal is to gather the biggest all-stars in gaming when that's obviously not true. I don't know why, but sometimes these people can just be toxic and refuse to let others enjoy the characters they enjoy.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Even if we weren't in the running, that wouldn't change how all of us would still be supporting Isaac. Because the moment you let that fan demand die, you're throwing away everything that you've worked for up to that point.

We may very well not get an Assist upgrade in this game, but that shouldn't stop us from being able to hope & speculate for our Golden Boy, because some people in the community said no.

Exactly! Never giving up is how us Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie supporters got our characters in the game. As long as we don't stop this strong support for Isaac, he eventually will get in at some point.

 

[ZelDan]

If there's one "potential silver lining" to the current AT fan rule situation, is that IF Isaac does hypothetically make it into Smash Ultimate as a playable character, and is the first AT character to do it, then he'd be the character to blow people's minds over ATs and not Springman, and hell, considering people are probably even more confident in ATs not happening now, the first AT character getting promoted (for us hopefully Isaac) would be just that bigger of a deal and get a bigger reaction.

Basically, Isaac's inclusion could be made all the more satisfying with what has transpired recently. You know, if it actually happens that is, which...we'll see.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Personally, I don't think much has changed for our situation. The fact ARMS got a character, despite its main protagonist being an AT is already great. The ARMS director also influenced the choice of the character of Min Min. And there's less of a clear main character in ARMS than Golden Sun, right?

However, I'm also 100% down to get either Felix or Matthew. Am dead serious about it. In fact, it would probably open a spot for Isaac the next game as an easy Echo. Think like a Chrom Smash 4 situation.

 

[Qeomash]

All Min Min's "upgrade", and the brief talk of Springman, did was prove that ATs don't matter. Isaac being upgraded is still entirely Nintendo's choice at this point, but it proves that's all it is. If Nintendo wants Isaac in, the AT will not stand in the way.

 

[Pinguino21v]

If there's one "potential silver lining" to the current AT fan rule situation, is that IF Isaac does hypothetically make it into Smash Ultimate as a playable character, and is the first AT character to do it, then he'd be the character to blow people's minds over ATs and not Springman, and hell, considering people are probably even more confident in ATs not happening now, the first AT character getting promoted (for us hopefully Isaac) would be just that bigger of a deal and get a bigger reaction.

Basically, Isaac's inclusion could be made all the more satisfying with what has transpired recently. You know, if it actually happens that is, which...we'll see.

And if it is Waluigi, people will find another excuse for Isaac to not get in, most likely "Waluigi being an exception".

 

[Bassoonist]

Well, if Waluigi got upgraded it would become more plausible in future games's DLC. However, as I said before, I don't think that IF we even get an AT upgrade (which is a big if) that there will be more than one.

 

[FlawedAI]

Well, if Waluigi got upgraded it would become more plausible in future games's DLC. However, as I said before, I don't think that IF we even get an AT upgrade (which is a big if) that there will be more than one.

I don't see why they'd bother limiting it. I don't believe that when deciding the characters for Fighters Pass Vol. 2, Sakurai said "ok we're going to make an Assist Trophy playable, but only one." He would consider each character's merits independently of all other circumstances, and if Nintendo told him to make both Isaac and Waluigi fighters, I think he'd go with it. As we saw, Spring Man was a possibility and his AT didn't affect his chances at all, he just wasn't chosen because the producer of ARMS wanted Min Min.

 

[Nazyrus]

All Min Min's "upgrade", and the brief talk of Springman, did was prove that ATs don't matter. Isaac being upgraded is still entirely Nintendo's choice at this point, but it proves that's all it is. If Nintendo wants Isaac in, the AT will not stand in the way.

Pretty much. All that is needed is that Nintendo/Sakurai has a reason to do it. The reasons may vary, from pure fan demand being wanted to be pleased, to even promoting new games or ports or whatever.

Honestly, is it really so different to play a mii or an actual fighter of whatever character while there is an AT existing of such character? for example, Callie and Marie are technically an upgrade from their ATs to Mii costume playable form. A mii costume is still basically a playable form of a character.

So, would or should a playable character or a mii costume really affect if an AT manifests or not in the match? i think that all this time people has just been over complicating it. Is the limitation even real at all to begin? not to mention that even IF IT WAS, it's super stupid easy to fix by simply turning the AT off when using either the mii or actual playable fighter. We see how they change entirely Mega man for Cuphead as in yesterday's presentation, for the cuphead spirit fight. There is literally no technical difference witih ATs, you turn it off if you want to show the fighter instead, or if you're playing with the fighter in a random match of your choice.

It's stupid either way lol, the more you think about it, it has been just a silly thing in people's heads. As most of us believers knew for all this time, but of course, everyone now know for sure, if there was any doubt still.

 

[SharkLord]

Pretty much. All that is needed is that Nintendo/Sakurai has a reason to do it. The reasons may vary, from pure fan demand being wanted to be pleased, to even promoting new games or ports or whatever.

Honestly, is it really so different to play a mii or an actual fighter of whatever character while there is an AT existing of such character? for example, Callie and Marie are technically an upgrade from their ATs to Mii costume playable form. A mii costume is still basically a playable form of a character.

So, would or should a playable character or a mii costume really affect if an AT manifests or not in the match? i think that all this time people has just been over complicating it. Is the limitation even real at all to begin? not to mention that even IF IT WAS, it's super stupid easy to fix by simply turning the AT off when using either the mii or actual playable fighter. We see how they change entirely Mega man for Cuphead as in yesterday's presentation, for the cuphead spirit fight. There is literally no technical difference witih ATs, you turn it off if you want to show the fighter instead, or if you're playing with the fighter in a random match of your choice.

It's stupid either way lol, the more you think about it, it has been just a silly thing in people's heads. As most of us believers knew for all this time, but of course, everyone now know for sure, if there was any doubt still.

What I want to know is how the Spirit Battles with Isaac's trophy would change. It seems like he's there to make sure you know it's Golden Sun, but what if he's a fighter? Do we keep it the same? Remove it entirely? Replace it with Isaac as a fighter?