Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Kalaam]

Stop, I'm going to blush.
Your clarifications are focal crystals on my unfocused summary.

 

[Nazyrus]

Also the time this new trademark appeared was in late 2018. Both DD and GS1 trademarks still had years of life left then. DD got renewed just now this year as it was its last one and GS1 trademark still has till 2021 and as you can see they only renewed DD in its last one. So that thing in late 2018 is new and unrelated to the existing ones. It is a class 9 one that covers a bunch of stuff for software and hardware of a game, and it literally has more than the original trademark of GS1 (with the pass of years even the life period of trademarks changed, now they last 10 years iirc.) I made a multi post on my twitter that speaks more on why this is not like other trademarks for other games, as ppl so stubbornly want to make it be the case. There is a difference of purposes for a trademark and for copyrights and ppl need to understand that. This new tm in late 2018 has nothing to do with smash. Just like isaac had nothing tm related for Brawl. You just dont need a trademark for such thing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Billybae10K I would suggest you ask NessAtc. Since he knows how to word it best overall and is the guy who has been getting me more into detail of the whole thing anyway. I am also most likely missing a lot of details he would surely remember. Credit of non stop research truly goes to him.

If someone can confirm to me if it was truly november or july when it got approved i would love that because lately im super confused about it lol. I think it had to do with them extending the time for in case any objections regarding the filing of the trademark happened. So far no objections happened and it has already been examined, which is GREAT news. NoJ must have ensured they have absolutely a basis for a trademark, which means they have something to sell in the making.

 

[NessAtc.]

https://www3.wipo.int/branddb/en/showData.jsp?ID=IDTM.M0020181436968

There's a GS trademark from Indonesia here as well, examined state, so there's that too

 

[MattX20]

Here's the latest Sakurai Famitsu column everyone (assuming it wasn't already posted)
https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...elections-his-role-future-of-the-series-more/

On the Geno discord, we highlighted the word EXTRAVAGANT in the column and how it lines up with PushDustin's translation, and here's some analysis on what it could mean:

"What "Extravagant" could mean in this context is either "lacking restraint in spending money or using resources", meaning a A.T. upgrade, like Waluigi, could be possible, and likely making companies return to this pass will overall cost less then to get a brand new company. Microsoft, Square, Nintendo, Capcom, Namco, and likely one new company, Activision. And "exceeding what is reasonable or appropriate; absurd.", this pass could overall shatter a bunch of fan-rules fans have put in place. A spirit upgrade is more of a possibility due to most of the rights of the character being already there."

This might be some good news for Isaac fans.

 

[NessAtc.]

"Extra" and "Extravagant" have very different connotations. Note how he says in the prior paragraph that "going all in is ill-advised". And then immediately after he says "these will be extravagant additions". Basically what the article translated it to say was "going all in is a bad idea, therefore, we're going all in."

Yeah I'll stick with Push saying "extra".

 

[GoodGrief741]

Ok, who do y'all think is more likely, Waluigi or Isaac?

Waluigi unless there's a new GS game that's coming out at the exact right time and Nintendo wants to promote it through Smash. While I do believe in the existence of a new GS, the very specific conditions lead me to believe it won't happen, so I'll have to give the edge to Waluigi.

But honestly, I don't think it's that improbable that we get both.

 

[FlawedAI]

https://www3.wipo.int/branddb/en/showData.jsp?ID=IDTM.M0020181436968

There's a GS trademark from Indonesia here as well, examined state, so there's that too

That's very strange. It doesn't make much sense to trademark something in Indonesia without it being necessary, right? I was doing research on that site and it also says that Nintendo filed for a trademark of 'Golden Sun' on the same day, August 29 2018, in Singapore, Australia, Indonesia, and New Zealand. However, they have two from Indonesia and the Philippines of 'Golden Sun' that are inactive, which is strange. All more pieces to the puzzle, I suppose.

 

[clearandsweet]

To advocate the devil/reel us back in, there are a few things.

First, Mario Sluggers, Rhythm Heaven and Wrecking Crew all got a similar non-renewal trademark approved (all were applied for and registered on the same day), all for 09 like Golden Sun.

And F-Zero has an entirely similar non-renewal trademark approved Aug 2018.

Also to clarify on one of those TM in Japan, one is for a rice company.

Four Golden Sun trademarks exist. One that corresponds for each game, filed shortly after their announcement dates usually, and the one in question.

Also no 4th TM exists for NOA or (insert kanji here) Oogyon no Taiyou as far as I could see, though this isn't a big deal much at all. Plenty of time to file after announcements.

Finally, the one associated with The Lost Age is either in the process of renewing or has been allowed to lapse.



Mostly, we're not really sure on a lot of the specifics (how much must be shown for a new TM, would they do a renewal via a new TM not just renewing old ones, what does a renewal look like as it is being approved/filed, is someone working on a new Wrecking Crew, ect), so it's hard to say much.

 

[FlawedAI]

To advocate the devil/reel us back in, there are a few things.

First, Mario Sluggers, Rhythm Heaven and Wrecking Crew all got a similar non-renewal trademark approved (all were applied for and registered on the same day), all for 09 like Golden Sun.

And F-Zero has an entirely similar non-renewal trademark approved Aug 2018.

*snip*

Four Golden Sun trademarks exist. One that corresponds for each game, filed shortly after their announcement dates usually, and the one in question.

Also no 4th TM exists for NOA or (insert kanji here) Oogyon no Taiyou as far as I could see, though this isn't a big deal much at all. Plenty of time to file after announcements.

Finally, the one associated with The Lost Age is either in the process of renewing or has been allowed to lapse.

View attachment 264379

Mostly, we're not really sure on a lot of the specifics (how much must be shown for a new TM, would they do a renewal via a new TM not just renewing old ones, what does a renewal look like as it is being approved/filed, is someone working on a new Wrecking Crew, ect), so it's hard to say much.

What's strange is that while four Golden Sun trademarks exist, only two「黄金の太陽」trademarks exist, one from 2000 and one from 2009. It's clear that Nintendo didn't new to renew the trademark for TLA, but the difference here is that there's no corresponding kanji trademark. The two English/kanji ones are basic "Golden Sun" names with no subtitle filed right before a game was announced, the third "Golden Sun" trademark is specifically for "Golden Sun Dark Dawn" (why trademark the English name in Japan? It's of no real concern, just weird to me), and the fourth is the one from 2018, but with no accompanying kanji trademark. That's actually somewhat worrying to me. The English and kanji trademarks were applied for on the same day for Dark Dawn (May 29, 2009) but clearly no kanji trademark was made for the 2018 one.

I have two theories for this: one is that this was simply a strange out-of-order early trademark for Nintendo and they simply filed to have their bases covered just in case, which would explain the filings for Wrecking Crew, Sluggers, and Rhythm Heaven as well, or two, that Nintendo is planning to rebrand the series as "Golden Sun" in Japan, ditching the Japanese name for its English counterpart. The good thing is that the trademark filings match up with new games, the bad news is that they also line up with expiration dates and renewal deadlines. It's a little hypocritical coming from me, but I'm afraid this new trademark my not mean anything.

 

[clearandsweet]

What's strange is that while four Golden Sun trademarks exist, only two「黄金の太陽」trademarks exist, one from 2000 and one from 2009. It's clear that Nintendo didn't new to renew the trademark for TLA, but the difference here is that there's no corresponding kanji trademark. The two English/kanji ones are basic "Golden Sun" names with no subtitle filed right before a game was announced, the third "Golden Sun" trademark is specifically for "Golden Sun Dark Dawn" (why trademark the English name in Japan? It's of no real concern, just weird to me), and the fourth is the one from 2018, but with no accompanying kanji trademark. That's actually somewhat worrying to me. The English and kanji trademarks were applied for on the same day for Dark Dawn (May 29, 2009) but clearly no kanji trademark was made for the 2018 one.

I have two theories for this: one is that this was simply a strange out-of-order early trademark for Nintendo and they simply filed to have their bases covered just in case, which would explain the filings for Wrecking Crew, Sluggers, and Rhythm Heaven as well, or two, that Nintendo is planning to rebrand the series as "Golden Sun" in Japan, ditching the Japanese name for its English counterpart. The good thing is that the trademark filings match up with new games, the bad news is that they also line up with expiration dates and renewal deadlines. It's a little hypocritical coming from me, but I'm afraid this new trademark my not mean anything.

Yeah, you've hit on a few of the various issues that we seriously lack insight/context on to be able to say anything definitively. I kind of steer away from bringing up the trademark as CONCRETE because there are so many points where the logic path frays because of our ignorance or because Japanese trademark law makes no logical sense.

That said, I absolutely use it as contributing evidence, re: the timeframe it was filed in and the circumstances at large surrounding it.

I would, however, pay a substantial amount of money to sit down with some NOJ lawyers and a translator for an hour or two.

 

[FlawedAI]

Yeah, you've hit on a few of the various issues that we seriously lack insight/context on to be able to say anything definitively. I kind of steer away from bringing up the trademark as CONCRETE because there are so many points where the logic path frays because of our ignorance or because Japanese trademark law makes no logical sense.

That said, I absolutely use it as contributing evidence, re: the timeframe it was filed in and the circumstances at large surrounding it.

I would, however, pay a substantial amount of money to sit down with some NOJ lawyers and a translator for an hour or two.

Right, it's hard to take the trademark as the deciding piece of evidence, rather, it's one of many circumstances that contribute to our confidence.

I guess that the only thing that would matter is how much is required to show that you'll actually use the trademark. Because clearly it's not required for Smash and the timing is strange, but the lack of a corresponding kanji trademark is making me nervous. I hope we're proven right, and the other pieces of evidence keep my confidence up, but it's hard not to think about this negatively now.

 

[Nazyrus]

Yeah, you've hit on a few of the various issues that we seriously lack insight/context on to be able to say anything definitively. I kind of steer away from bringing up the trademark as CONCRETE because there are so many points where the logic path frays because of our ignorance or because Japanese trademark law makes no logical sense.

That said, I absolutely use it as contributing evidence, re: the timeframe it was filed in and the circumstances at large surrounding it.

I would, however, pay a substantial amount of money to sit down with some NOJ lawyers and a translator for an hour or two.

Right, it's hard to take the trademark as the deciding piece of evidence, rather, it's one of many circumstances that contribute to our confidence.

I guess that the only thing that would matter is how much is required to show that you'll actually use the trademark. Because clearly it's not required for Smash and the timing is strange, but the lack of a corresponding kanji trademark is making me nervous. I hope we're proven right, and the other pieces of evidence keep my confidence up, but it's hard not to think about this negatively now.

I don't know if evidence or not. We can call it what we want. But I do know it's a factual situation that can be put briefly with the knowledge that we already understand regarding trademarks in general:

1) you need a basis for a trademark, this is universal.
2) It takes a lot of legal proceedure steps, and NoJ doesn't do this for nothing
3) It costs them money to file a trademark, it's not a free thing.
4) This trademark that appeared in 2018 is a new one and it has no relation to any of the existing ones, it's not a renewal therefore.

Since there needs to be a basis for a trademark, it means something is to be done with it, it's as simple as that. We might not know in detail what the latest status of it might be, but at the very least from these websites of multiple regions touching on it, none has shown "objections" in the procedure of the examination of the trademark, which is good. It's just a matter of time to see what it results turning into, because so far there have been no steps backwards, and something definitely will happen because again, a trademark can't be made to happen if there is nothing to sell in the end, and NoJ won't waste money for nothing either, it just doesn't happen. What i'm saying is, we migiht not know in detail the current situation with the trademark, but we know the general basics of the situation regarding them and therefore that something is coming, eventually. It might not be ever be possible to know super details about it because they maybe are not things to ever be made public. So if it's just a matter of time anyway, all we can do is wait after all. We can be glad that this exists at the very least.

 

[Kalaam]

I think the 2009 trademark was for Dark Dawn before its announcement and its official name. You can see it was deposited just a few months before Golden Sun DS was announced.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Kalaam made a brilliant summary of the whole thing, but I have a few things to add on:
1. The trademark is in English but was filed for in Japan, instead of the Japanese name「黄金の太陽」(Ōgon no Taiyou, literally translates to "Golden Sun"), but the point is it's a brand new trademark, not a renewal.
2. Camelot's last released game was Mario Tennis Aces, which released in Summer 2018, but has received small updates for about a year, with new characters being added over time. However, that doesn't require the whole team, only a few developers, so the main Camelot team has been quiet for about a year and a half.
2a. Camelot is helped by Nintendo EPD2, iirc.
3. Not only has Takahashi said that he wants to make RPGs, but he's also said that his part as director of Aces ended in December 2017, leaving him and his brother over two years to plan a new game, with them probably making the pitch to Nintendo in early 2018, as development of Aces ended, leading to the trademark being filed in August 2018.

I never really took the copyright thing all that serious untill I read this. So, we really think the Golden Sun will rise again? I'm excited for the prospect alone. Lots of RPG remakes on Switch, Pokémon Dungeon remake confirmed this is a ongoing trend for the Switch to me (also it looks cute enough to try again even). I'd love it if we got a remake, and possibly The Lost Age (my favourite of the 3 games) and Dark Dawn after this. And hopefully a sequel to Dark Dawn afterwards. As said before, MAYBE the two GBA games could fit in one game even?

 

[Kalaam]

I think if we get a remake, it will both both the GBA games into one single game as was originally planned.

 

[Amped_Form]

I think if we get a remake, it will both both the GBA games into one single game as was originally planned.

I always wanted to play Golden Sun actually. Let’s hope for the remake to come... whenever that’s coming.

 

[Cadillac]

I always wanted to play Golden Sun actually. Let’s hope for the remake to come... whenever that’s coming.

You can use the Emulator anytime.

 

[Nazyrus]

I think if we get a remake, it will both both the GBA games into one single game as was originally planned.

Oh 100%. It was purely a limitation of hardware back then iirc, so we would definitely get a full experience now.

 

[N3ON]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

 

[clearandsweet]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

Already resolved to buy it for any of my friends who don't have the money.

 

[Xenigma]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

Honestly, I'll strongly consider gifting multiple copies to friends/family if the game comes to pass. I'm not particularly well off, but if that's what it takes to ensure people play the game, I'll make it work.

 

[Jibunzo]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

Always been my plan. One for myself, two to gift. I'll shill out, no ducks given.

 

[FlawedAI]

It would be a true blessing if we got some kind of collector's edition with a soundtrack or a figure of a Djinni or something. It probably wouldn't happen, but I'd like it to. An the very least I'll be preordering any new Golden Sun as soon as possible.

 

[Pinguino21v]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

Like others have said, if that miracle happens, any friend and colleague with a Switch will get its own copy, will it be bought by their own means or by mine.

 

[Cadillac]

It would be a true blessing if we got some kind of collector's edition with a soundtrack or a figure of a Djinni or something. It probably wouldn't happen, but I'd like it to. An the very least I'll be preordering any new Golden Sun as soon as possible.

Imagine a Djinni Amiibo. That's awesome.

 

[Kalaam]

A djinn amiibo is possible, they have relatively simple shapes so it wouldn't be very hard to do.
In a collector edition of some sort, i'd easily see a fake leather/fabric map of weyard and maybe something like Isaac's scarf or a statue.
Or maybe little elemental stars ?

 

[NessAtc.]

if anything GS happens, I am going in threefold no questions asked. Perhaps not right away, but it will happen

 

[SonicLink125]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

Oh, I will! I’ll be gifting them to friends who won’t be able to afford it.

 

[Nazyrus]

If there is a new Golden Sun, the minimum number of copies everyone who posts regularly in this thread has to buy is three.

DEAL!

Honestly, I'll strongly consider gifting multiple copies to friends/family if the game comes to pass. I'm not particularly well off, but if that's what it takes to ensure people play the game, I'll make it work.

Yeah I plan to help ppl get into the franchise like that, I might not be able to pay for 3 at once but I might even pay more than 3 over time just to get ppl into it even more than I try them to do so with the originals. The potential of the franchise is already there to surprise many, specially with how good the puzzles could be now on modern age.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Whenever it releases or comes out it's our job to pretty much spread excitement about the game to get newcomers interested. Seeing how passionate this fanbase has shown they can be over the past couple of years I could see us doing a great job

 

[Cadillac]

It took me a year to realize that the Isaac AT model has his scabbard wrong.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I may not be able to afford Golden Sun for all my friends, but I'll make sure to lend them my copy and make them play it!

 

[Kalaam]

I'd buy a second copy to do a raffle on twitter xD

 

[Amped_Form]

It took me a year to realize that the Isaac AT model has his scabbard wrong.
View attachment 264547

Is it? I didn’t even notice XD.

 

[Cadillac]

Is it ok for me to start some kind of game about your wanted characters here?

 

[Kalaam]

Depends I'd say. If it's something that stirs trouble between fandoms I don't think it's a very good idea.

 

[GoodGrief741]

As long as it's on-topic sure, but let's not turn into the Geno thread.

 

[Xenigma]

Is it ok for me to start some kind of game about your wanted characters here?

We did have a conversation recently about our top 6 wanted characters due to a fan poll, and I don't think that was particularly contentious. Just remember this is an Isaac/Golden Sun thread first and foremost.

 

[Cadillac]

Ok, this game is about your 6 wanted characters, but you have to make a boxing ring title for them. Is it ok?

 

[Kalaam]

Lol, we already came up with those xD
Isaac, the Warrior of Vale.
Felix, The Unsung Hero
Matthew, The Quiet Successor
no other character that I actually want so randomly:
Dante, The Devil That Cry
LLyod, The Crimson Whirlwind
Master Chief, The Spartan