Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC

KoopaSaki

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Hey guys this came over from the geno thread as I tend to always go there when I’m not here and it’s brought up a theory I now have that may have caused Isaac to miss base game. Could it be because sakurai though Isaac was just another generic anime swordsman and didn’t put him in fearing the public backlash?

Also, fun fact for all of you that are more focused in getting in little jabs than providing a real argument over the 'anime swordsman' issue, I think [IMG]https://smashboards.com/data/avatars/s/280/280739.jpg?1548821078[/IMG] Ze Diglettcovered it best but I'll also give my two cents: there IS an 'anime swordsperson' problem, and that's because the general public thinks there is. When they see and 'anime-styled' (usually bishi or perfectly attractive as only anime can provide) swordsman or swordswoman, it no longer matters how unique their moveset is: they are 'anime-styled' and use a sword, so it's a problem. Erdrick would fuel that, as he is 'anime-styled' and he would likely wield a sword.

Fun fact, there are only so many ways you can swing a sword, and since most of the characters in Smash wield swords in a similar manner, they all seem the same and that's boring. Link uses other tools and weapons, but the other Links follow suit, so if Erdrick were to work like that people would complain. Corrin and Robin have magic/bloodline abilities that diversify them greatly, but if Erdrick uses magic people will tie that back to these two, and the LAST thing Erdrick wants is to be compared with Corrin for obvious reasons.

Now a good share of us HAVE brains and realize the differences, but the general public doesn't care about nuance, and even Sakurai thinks there is a bit of an over-saturation of swordwielders/FE characters. Chrom got in because of requests and his echo fighter status, that's it. If he had no request and couldn;t be easily implemented, you wouldn't see him.
 

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Honestly I think Isaac was next up to be added but time constraints are what killed the dream here.
I believe the biggest time constraint was with making a GS stage. Not just because they had to redo so many stages, but look at the facts regarding the four new stages:
  • Three of them use recycled assets from the games they're representing
  • The one that doesn't, Dracula's Castle, is still a simple stage whose monsters are just background decoration
  • None of them can be considered the new Temple/New Pork/Great Cave Offensive
 
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Hey guys this came over from the geno thread as I tend to always go there when I’m not here and it’s brought up a theory I now have that may have caused Isaac to miss base game. Could it be because sakurai though Isaac was just another generic anime swordsman and didn’t put him in fearing the public backlash?

Also, fun fact for all of you that are more focused in getting in little jabs than providing a real argument over the 'anime swordsman' issue, I think [IMG]https://smashboards.com/data/avatars/s/280/280739.jpg?1548821078[/IMG] Ze Diglettcovered it best but I'll also give my two cents: there IS an 'anime swordsperson' problem, and that's because the general public thinks there is. When they see and 'anime-styled' (usually bishi or perfectly attractive as only anime can provide) swordsman or swordswoman, it no longer matters how unique their moveset is: they are 'anime-styled' and use a sword, so it's a problem. Erdrick would fuel that, as he is 'anime-styled' and he would likely wield a sword.

Fun fact, there are only so many ways you can swing a sword, and since most of the characters in Smash wield swords in a similar manner, they all seem the same and that's boring. Link uses other tools and weapons, but the other Links follow suit, so if Erdrick were to work like that people would complain. Corrin and Robin have magic/bloodline abilities that diversify them greatly, but if Erdrick uses magic people will tie that back to these two, and the LAST thing Erdrick wants is to be compared with Corrin for obvious reasons.

Now a good share of us HAVE brains and realize the differences, but the general public doesn't care about nuance, and even Sakurai thinks there is a bit of an over-saturation of swordwielders/FE characters. Chrom got in because of requests and his echo fighter status, that's it. If he had no request and couldn;t be easily implemented, you wouldn't see him.
Honestly I believe what panda said I just don't think he was considered in the first place yeah the general public doesn't like sword boys and whatever but its mostly fire emblem fault I think they can add more and if it happens it happens
 

N3ON

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If Sakurai was concerned with anime-looking sword-fighters, he'd stop adding them.

There was only one new one in the base game, and he was a clone. Adding another wouldn't have been that much. Smash 4 added three in the base and three more via DLC.

The anime-looking sword-fighters also seem to be some of the more popular characters. Those who complain about them are a minority.
 

Undella2

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Honestly, if time was an issue, and it likely was due to some of the bugs present in at least the early versions of the game, the "mere" handful of fully new characters (with most of them being clones), and missing game modes, then I don't see why Smash Ultimate couldn't have just been pushed back a year, to release in December 2019 instead of December 2018.

I get that they want the extra holiday money, but there was already a 7-ish year time gap from Melee to Brawl, and a 6-ish year time gap from Brawl to Smash 4.

I think people could have waited 5 years, instead of 4, for Ultimate to come out if it meant extra new characters and having old gamemodes and whatnot be kept.
 

FlawedAI

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Honestly, if time was an issue, and it likely was due to some of the bugs present in at least the early versions of the game, the "mere" handful of fully new characters (with most of them being clones), and missing game modes, then I don't see why Smash Ultimate couldn't have just been pushed back a year, to release in December 2019 instead of December 2018.

I get that they want the extra holiday money, but there was already a 7-ish year time gap from Melee to Brawl, and a 6-ish year time gap from Brawl to Smash 4.

I think people could have waited 5 years, instead of 4, for Ultimate to come out if it meant extra new characters and having old gamemodes and whatnot be kept.
I honestly wish Smash was coming out this year instead of last. Another year could've meant more characters, more modes, and in general more polish (which this game kinda lacks, especially compared to Smash 4). And the first character that would've been added: Isaac. I'm sure of it.
 

SPEN18

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Honestly, if time was an issue, and it likely was due to some of the bugs present in at least the early versions of the game, the "mere" handful of fully new characters (with most of them being clones), and missing game modes, then I don't see why Smash Ultimate couldn't have just been pushed back a year, to release in December 2019 instead of December 2018.

I get that they want the extra holiday money, but there was already a 7-ish year time gap from Melee to Brawl, and a 6-ish year time gap from Brawl to Smash 4.

I think people could have waited 5 years, instead of 4, for Ultimate to come out if it meant extra new characters and having old gamemodes and whatnot be kept.
I honestly wish Smash was coming out this year instead of last. Another year could've meant more characters, more modes, and in general more polish (which this game kinda lacks, especially compared to Smash 4). And the first character that would've been added: Isaac. I'm sure of it.
When Ultimate was first announced, I was actually quite a bit concerned that it was too soon. And even now, I agree that the whole game could've been much improved with an extra year or so. And since the game is out so early in the Switch's lifecycle, it's gonna make for a potentially wonky timeline in terms of figuring out when a hypothetical next Smash game could be under development.

I believe the biggest time constraint was with making a GS stage.
Idk if I'd say that time constraints on a GS stage are as much to blame as the massive amount of effort put into bringing all the vets back; however, I agree that having to make a brand new stage could have added to the drawbacks of introducing a new franchise, especially one that would require a stage that is not from a recent game. If Venus Lighthouse would have been the stage of choice, I could see it causing difficulty if they're gonna represent it properly; the mechanic of splitting the Lighthouse in two along with a potential boss fight would have made for a fairly complicated stage. Still, I think that the limited number of newcomers, which was largely a result of the veteran fighter overload, is the bigger factor if we're just considering time constraints.
 
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The Grinch Leak could've been almost real if Smash was delayed for a year but in all seriousness Isaac is a top candidate for a character that was next in line but of course time constraints explained by the abundance of clones and the assist trophy was there just for a loud fanbase like us to get something. Of course the Switch first party lineup 2018 for Nintendo was kind of underwhelming so I guess they needed something besides Pokémon Lets Go for the holidays
 

Tetiro

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I think time constraints were the real issue here. If it was anything like relevancy, anime swordsman etc a good chunk of the new roster wouldn't have been sure-fire picks from the ballot. Especially King K Rool. Yet here he is.

Let's not forget that despite Inklings, Pokemon 7 and Isabelle being shoe-ins, they very likely scored high on the ballot to begin with. After all Splatoon is wildly popular and Pokemon/Animal Crossing are both 10 million sellers. It was obvious the ballot would include them as winners.

Smash Ultimate has had the SHORTEST release year gap (4 years) since Melee. 3DS/Wii U had 6 and Brawl had 7. And you can tell. Bugs and glitches, small newcomer roster picks, trophies turned into spirits. The lack of Home Run etc just proves time cuts.

When you think about it, you can see WHY Isaac, Bandana Dee etc didn't get in. They cut 2 WHOLE YEARS from the development cycle. 2 YEARS!

Look at 3DS/Wii U and Ultimate's newcomer (not echoes) count. 3DS/Wii U had 13 while Ultimate only had 7. Ultimate had only 53-54% of the amount the last game did. Brawl had 12 for the record. Now with a bit of maths...

Ultimate's 4 years / 3DS/Wii U's 6 years = 66%

Ultimate had only 66% the amount of time to the previous two games. And as a result the newcoming (echo excluded) roster was almost halved.

Let's take that into perspective.

Isaac, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Elma, etc etc. They all didn't make the cut. In fact I'd like to point out that not even Elma made the cut. She was a very likely chance due to XCX and XC2.

So yeh...this whole popularity/anime swordsman/relevancy/debate is kind of pointless for Ultimate because its real reason for character cutting is clear as day. Unless someone can argue against cutting two years from a development cycle.
 
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N3ON

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I think time constraints were the real issue here. If it was anything like relevancy, anime swordsman etc a good chunk of the new roster wouldn't have been sure-fire picks from the ballot. Especially King K Rool. Yet here he is.

Let's not forget that despite Inklings, Pokemon 7 and Isabelle being shoe-ins, they very likely scored high on the ballot to begin with. After all Splatoon is wildly popular and Pokemon/Animal Crossing are both 10 million sellers. It was obvious the ballot would include them as winners.

Smash Ultimate has had the SHORTEST release year gap (4 years) since Melee. 3DS/Wii U had 6 and Brawl had 7. And you can tell. Bugs and glitches, small newcomer roster picks, trophies turned into spirits. The lack of Home Run etc just proves time cuts.

When you think about it, you can see WHY Isaac, Bandana Dee etc didn't get in. They cut 2 WHOLE YEARS from the development cycle. 2 YEARS!

Look at 3DS/Wii U and Ultimate's newcomer (not echoes) count. 3DS/Wii U had 13 while Ultimate only had 7. Ultimate had only 53-54% of the amount the last game did. Brawl had 12 for the record. Now with a bit of maths...

Ultimate's 4 years / 3DS/Wii U's 6 years = 66%

Ultimate had only 66% the amount of time to the previous two games. And as a result the newcoming (echo excluded) roster was almost halved.

Let's take that into perspective.

Isaac, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Elma, etc etc. They all didn't make the cut. In fact I'd like to point out that not even Elma made the cut. She was a very likely chance due to XCX and XC2.

So yeh...this whole popularity/anime swordsman/relevancy/debate is kind of pointless for Ultimate because its real reason for character cutting is clear as day. Unless someone can argue against cutting two years from a development cycle.
You... do know not every Smash game starts development immediately after the previous one ends, right? There were seven years in between Melee and Brawl and six in between Brawl and 4, but Smash wasn't in development that whole time... Brawl didn't start until late 05, and 4 didn't start until a quarter of the way through 2012.

Ultimate was allegedly in development for around two and a half years (maybe even closer to three), which is roughly the same as, if not longer than, both previous titles. So it's not time that was hugely different, it was the development priorities. Instead of newcomers they focused a lot of attention on vets. Like a less extreme outcome of what happened with the stages, where we barely got any new ones, but almost all the old ones returned.

It's also possible they were working with a smaller team, considering how much of Smash 4 they retooled.

Oh also I think you're giving the ballot too much credit for shaping the roster. If they're characters that would've gotten in regardless, attributing the ballot to them seems questionable. Not the least of which being that Gen 7 didn't even exist publicly at that time.
 
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Tetiro

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You... do know not every Smash game starts development immediately after the previous one ends, right? There were seven years in between Melee and Brawl and six in between Brawl and 4, but Smash wasn't in development that whole time... Brawl didn't start until late 05, and 4 didn't start until a quarter of the way through 2012.

Ultimate was allegedly in development for around two and a half years (maybe even closer to three), which is roughly the same as, if not longer than, both previous titles. So it's not time that was hugely different, it was the development priorities. Instead of newcomers they focused a lot of attention on vets. Like a less extreme outcome of what happened with the stages, where we barely got any new ones, but almost all the old ones returned.

It's also possible they were working with a smaller team, considering how much of Smash 4 they retooled.

Oh also I think you're giving the ballot too much credit for shaping the roster. If they're characters that would've gotten in regardless, attributing the ballot to them seems questionable. Not the least of which being that Gen 7 didn't even exist publicly at that time.
Most games get a very long design process. It may not be on written paper per-say but it is there in the developer's mind. Some places even have the next ten years in their minds about what to do. Coming from a development background myself, the work is NEVER done. You are always looking to the future. Whether you are actually making the software right now or not. I'm almost certain the moment Sakurai stopped 3DS/Wii U he was already thinking about the next game. I would bet money on it as it is a safe bet. And so the development for Ultimate would have already begun. Just like Brawl, Melee and Wii U.

Most of the time is spent planning a piece of software. The actual development time can be incredibly short. But as a result it does leave it difficult to implement new things. This is why the likes of Springman, Rex and Rabbid Peach for example are very limited in their inclusion. They were amendments to the already existing design process.

Actually I'm not saying the ballot was gospel truth. What I am saying however is that there would almost certainly be a notable interest in the shoe-ins in the roster. Take Isabelle for example. She was a shoe-in LONG before the ballot even existed. So as a result of course she would have done well on the roster. She had a fanbase. That's all I'm saying. Inklings, Isabelle and Pokemon would have done high on the ballot because they had a great following back then.
 
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osby

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Most games get a very long design process. It may not be on written paper per-say but it is there in the developer's mind. Some places even have the next ten years in their minds about what to do. Coming from a development background myself, the work is NEVER done. You are always looking to the future. Whether you are actually making the software right now or not. I'm almost certain the moment Sakurai stopped 3DS/Wii U he was already thinking about the next game. I would bet money on it as it is a safe bet. And so the development for Ultimate would have already begun. Just like Brawl, Melee and Wii U.

Actually I'm not saying the ballot was gospel truth. What I am saying however is that there would almost certainly be a notable interest in the shoe-ins in the roster. Take Isabelle for example. She was a shoe-in LONG before the ballot even existed. So as a result of course she would have done well on the roster. She had a fanbase. That's all I'm saying. Inklings, Isabelle and Pokemon would have done high on the ballot because they had a great following back then.
You know Sakurai made Uprising between Brawl and Smash 4, right? There's no way Smash 4 was in development during the whole 2008-2014 period.
 

Tetiro

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You know Sakurai made Uprising between Brawl and Smash 4, right? There's no way Smash 4 was in development during the whole 2008-2014 period.
Not officially no. But in Sakurai's mind it would be. And that's all it takes.

Remember, the Scaling Difficulty from Uprising was used in Smash 4. You can't deny he would have thought during the process of Uprising "This would be great for the next Smash game"? Also, he already set his heart on Palutena and Dark Pit having spent years making a game for them.

By the time he had completed Uprising, he already had 2 newcomers to the roster
 
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N3ON

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Most games get a very long design process. It may not be on written paper per-say but it is there in the developer's mind. Some places even have the next ten years in their minds about what to do. Coming from a development background myself, the work is NEVER done. You are always looking to the future. Whether you are actually making the software right now or not. I'm almost certain the moment Sakurai stopped 3DS/Wii U he was already thinking about the next game. I would bet money on it as it is a safe bet. And so the development for Ultimate would have already begun. Just like Brawl, Melee and Wii U.

Most of the time is spent planning a piece of software. The actual development time can be incredibly short. But as a result it does leave it difficult to implement new things. This is why the likes of Springman, Rex and Rabbid Peach for example are very limited in their inclusion. They were amendments to the already existing design process.

Actually I'm not saying the ballot was gospel truth. What I am saying however is that there would almost certainly be a notable interest in the shoe-ins in the roster. Take Isabelle for example. She was a shoe-in LONG before the ballot even existed. So as a result of course she would have done well on the roster. She had a fanbase. That's all I'm saying. Inklings, Isabelle and Pokemon would have done high on the ballot because they had a great following back then.
Wait, hold on though. If the argument was that characters couldn't be implemented due to a truncated development time, the implication with a normal development time, which this game actually had, is that a typical amount of newcomers would be present. That goes back to my point that it wasn't the time that was the cause of the more limited pool of new characters, it was development focusing on other aspects.

The argument that Smash is always in the backburner of Sakurai's mind, even if it's true, is irrelevant here. I'm sure Sakurai can and has mused over dozens of characters, but he can only implement a certain amount, because time and resources are finite. To that end, unless you're suggesting that, with all his creative prowess, Sakurai could only come up with eleven newcomers, only five of whom are original, these new moved goalposts don't present any less faulty of a theory. It doesn't matter how many characters Sakurai can come up with, it matters how many he can add.

More over, it also flies in the face of your original point that Sakurai could come up with other candidates, just lacked the time to include them.

So to the heart of the issue, if the roster of this game had been built like a normal Smash sequel, with a wider array of newcomers, Isaac may very well have been included. But that just wasn't the direction they took this game in. And that wasn't for lacking time or consideration.
 
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So to the heart of the issue, if the roster of this game had been built like a normal Smash sequel, with a wider array of newcomers, Isaac may very well have been included. But that just wasn't the direction they took this game in. And that wasn't for lacking time or consideration.
I think you are mostly right, but I would argue that this final statement would be more accurate as saying, "But that just wasn't the direction they took this game in, partially because of a smaller time constraint." While I don't think the other games had 7 years development time or anything like that, this Smash cycle Sakurai has said several times that they were more limited by time and that affected the amount of new content.

And honestly at the end of the day as much as we would like to think Isaac was next in line, if Polarpanda is to be believed then Nintendo was surprised about Isaac's support which I doubt would have been the case if they were thinking he was next in line.
 

Guynamednelson

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they very likely scored high on the ballot to begin with.
It's impossible for Incineroar to be a ballot pick. Even if the ballot had been extended enough for Incineroar votes to be possible, he would have to compete with long-time favorites and several SM Pokemon that were more popular. People were hoping for Incineroar leaks to be fake back when he was leaked for Pokemon itself.
 
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FlintIke

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I think the general problem with Swordsman in smash is, that the smash team has some limited imagination on how to design swordsman moves. They could look at other Beat em Up's for once to get some ideas, since most smash sword characters have "Marth-Moves" which is kinda boring after the 3rd time.

I can only hope that if they include another one, that they do some research on how to make different sword moves so we won't end up with another Marth-clone. (This is why I hoped for Lyn as well since we don't have a samurai fight-style for now...).

But that shouldn't even bother Isaac, since you could easily just take the sword away from him. (Or use it as some kind of decoration lol)

EDIT:

Oh and also: I would just ignore people complaining about swordsman from new series's, since even fist fighter have many similar moves. They are just more accepted by the community (for whatever reason).
Examples for moves that are shared among the roster for close combat chars would be:
Mario's Up Air (for example Luigi,Falcon,Ganon)
ZSS Back Air(Fox,Bayonetta,Falco,Samus,Dark Samus,...)
Lucas's Down Air (Lucario, Pac-Man, maybe Peach and Daisy lol)
Fox's Nair (Sheik, Ken, Wario's Fair kinda?, Link, Young Link)

And some others, just wanted to give few examples. So I hope someday people can just accept swordfighter as well and move on, since every movement option is limited at one point like someone already mentioned.
 
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The whole "anime swordsmen" nonsense is so full of contradiction and obvious bias it's gone past the point of ridiculousness.

Everyone complains about "too many sword wielders" but almost never count Meta Knight despite him being one of the most famous sword wielders in the cast, but he doesn't fit the "anime" mold so they don't talk about him. Then suddenly Joker doesn't count because it's a knife but you can't swing a knife any more ways than you can swing a sword but it's still different because it's small, oh and also Joker is different because he has guns and can summon personas but Robin/Link/Corrin are all just sword wielders still. Oh and Sora also doesn't count because he looks like he would use his sword in a really unique way. Oh and also we're cool with Isaac because he would obviously be different (but really we just don't want to piss off the Isaac fanbase which is considerably larger than the Geno fanbase).

Mean while if you bring up that there are already 4 fighters with arm cannons on the roster and that an arm cannon is considerably less versatile than a sword, they dismiss it by saying how different they are (you know vs how identical all the sword wielders are).

Then if you try to talk about adding a character for their iconic nature or to represent a great series, they talk about how that isn't as important as the fact that they hold a sword. Yet Geno should 100% be added because he represents an iconic game that was so great.

I wish it didn't feel like the Geno fans always needed to drag other characters down, more so than other fans it seems.

Sorry for that little rant, I am 100% over the anime swordsman nonsense.

Anyway, back to Isaac. Yes we should 100% do that fan art compendium.
 
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I dunno about "anime swordsman" in particular, but there's a trend here. Sakurai even said in an interview he doesn't want a cast entirely of "protagonists"

I feel like having a line-up solely made up of heroes would be a bit lacking. The same thing applies to characters like Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, and Duck Hunt… Piranha Plant offers up something that only Piranha Plant can bring to the game. I think everybody will have a lot of fun with it after it’s released.
Inklings a given and are more generic and also squids, Ridley and Krool very monstrous, Incineroar and Isabelle too aren't heroes or humans. I was real bummed about piranha plant, but he fits the idea. I'm fairly big on Brave being Banjo too. Belmonts were really the only heroes/humans added (and even Richter is better known as a villain!)

Was the plan all along to put the heroes and protagonists as DLC because people would be more likely to buy them? Then bolster the roster at base with lots of non-heroes/not anime swordsmen? Surely Joker converts more on DLC than K. Rool or Incineroar. Biiiiig thonk.
 
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I dunno about "anime swordsman" in particular, but there's a trend here. Sakurai even said in an interview he doesn't want a cast entirely of "protagonists"



Inklings a given and are more generic and also squids, Ridley and Krool very monstrous, Incineroar and Isabelle too aren't heroes or humans. I was real bummed about piranha plant, but he fits the idea. I'm fairly big on Brave being Banjo too. Belmonts were really the only heroes/humans added (and even Richter is better known as a villain!)

Was the plan all along to put the heroes and protagonists as DLC because people would be more likely to buy them? Then bolster the roster at base with lots of non-heroes/not anime swordsmen? Surely Joker converts more on DLC than K. Rool or Incineroar. Biiiiig thonk.
That's actually a really interesting observation but I think that Sakurai's quote was specifically talking about his "roster diversity" pick such as WFT, Duck Hunt, G&W, ROB, and now Piranha Plant. I think he was saying that to justify his "roster diversity" picks, not describing his overarching feelings toward Ultimate's newcomers.
 
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Honestly, if time was an issue, and it likely was due to some of the bugs present in at least the early versions of the game, the "mere" handful of fully new characters (with most of them being clones), and missing game modes, then I don't see why Smash Ultimate couldn't have just been pushed back a year, to release in December 2019 instead of December 2018.

I get that they want the extra holiday money, but there was already a 7-ish year time gap from Melee to Brawl, and a 6-ish year time gap from Brawl to Smash 4.

I think people could have waited 5 years, instead of 4, for Ultimate to come out if it meant extra new characters and having old gamemodes and whatnot be kept.
I honestly wish Smash was coming out this year instead of last. Another year could've meant more characters, more modes, and in general more polish (which this game kinda lacks, especially compared to Smash 4). And the first character that would've been added: Isaac. I'm sure of it.
I would have gladly waited another year for Home Run Contest, Break The Targets, All Star Mode, Event Matches, and more characters especially from the Ballot. :)

It's impossible for Incineroar to be a ballot pick. Even if the ballot had been extended enough for Incineroar votes to be possible, he would have to compete with long-time favorites and several SM Pokemon that were more popular. People were hoping for Incineroar leaks to be fake back when he was leaked for Pokemon itself.
Incineroar didn't exist when the Smash Ballot was going on, so he wasn't even a option for the Ballot to begin with.
 
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FlawedAI

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That's actually a really interesting observation but I think that Sakurai's quote was specifically talking about his "roster diversity" pick such as WFT, Duck Hunt, G&W, ROB, and now Piranha Plant. I think he was saying that to justify his "roster diversity" picks, not describing his overarching feelings toward Ultimate's newcomers.
I'm pretty sure this quote is just backwards logic to justify Plant's inclusion. I personally think Sakurai or someone on the team worked on Plant as a joke, and it became basically like an inside joke for the dev team or something. Sakurai then probably wanted to add Plant to base to not tick anyone off over him being DLC, but had to compromise (probably due to time) and made him an early adopter bonus. I believe Sakurai needs to just own up and say that Plant was a joke/purely shock value character. I'm okay with that, but I'm not okay with him making nothing statements that contradict his own actions.
 
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That's actually a really interesting observation but I think that Sakurai's quote was specifically talking about his "roster diversity" pick such as WFT, Duck Hunt, G&W, ROB, and now Piranha Plant. I think he was saying that to justify his "roster diversity" picks, not describing his overarching feelings toward Ultimate's newcomers.
I'm pretty sure this quote is just backwards logic to justify Plant's inclusion. I personally think Sakurai or someone on the team worked on Plant as a joke, and it became basically like an inside joke for the dev team or something. Sakurai then probably wanted to add Plant to base to not tick anyone off over him being DLC, but had to compromise (probably due to time) and made him an early adopter bonus. I believe Sakurai needs to just own up and say that Plant was a joke/purely shock value character. I'm okay with that, but I'm not okay with him making nothing statements that contradict his own actions.
Isn't it really an elaborate way to say "WTF character"?

Between him and Reggie, it's like once you join Nintendo, you lose the ability to talk like a regular human being.
 

N3ON

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I think you are mostly right, but I would argue that this final statement would be more accurate as saying, "But that just wasn't the direction they took this game in, partially because of a smaller time constraint." While I don't think the other games had 7 years development time or anything like that, this Smash cycle Sakurai has said several times that they were more limited by time and that affected the amount of new content.
If we had no idea as to the timeframe of development, I could understand that argument, but I can't get behind "time" in and of itself being an issue. Because fortunately, unlike in most development areas, we don't have to hypothesize over that schedule.

We know the project plan was finished in late 2015, which means, if the game went gold in September or October this year, that's just shy of three years in development. That's standard, if not a bit above average (especially considering pre-production started even earlier in 2015), for a Smash game.

Now, what I can see being a factor perhaps is a smaller team, and therefore less manpower than before. That's possible. But we actually know the timeframe, and it more or less matches up to the past couple games.

And honestly at the end of the day as much as we would like to think Isaac was next in line, if Polarpanda is to be believed then Nintendo was surprised about Isaac's support which I doubt would have been the case if they were thinking he was next in line.
I'm not saying Isaac was the very next in line or anything, just that if Sakurai had included fifteen new movesets in base like last time, instead of five this time, chances seem decent Isaac could've been one of those extra ten.
 
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Now, what I can see being a factor perhaps is a smaller team, and therefore less manpower than before. That's possible. But we actually know the timeframe, and it more or less matches up to the past couple games.
I can agree with what you're saying, but wouldn't a smaller team cause an average amount of time to feel more limiting because they couldn't do all that they wanted to do? So to that effect Sakurai wouldn't be lying if he said he felt like time was an issue, not saying that he had less time than usual or anything but that time limited him from doing all he wanted to do.

I'm not saying Isaac was the very next in line or anything, just that if Sakurai had included fifteen new movesets in base like last time, instead of five this time, chances seem decent Isaac could've been one of those extra ten.
On this I agree 100%, I don't think Isaac was next by any means but he had to have been close to the top.

Isn't it really an elaborate way to say "WTF character"?

Between him and Reggie, it's like once you join Nintendo, you lose the ability to talk like a regular human being.
Maybe it's just my sales and business background but to me it seems perfectly reasonable to alter your wording in a way that might help to avoid backlash.

At the end of the day you're correct though that when I used "roster diversity pick" that I had actually had "WTF pick" there first but decided to try and put a better spin on it to avoid people getting mad at me lol.
 
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Alright then, let's just say "oddball character pick". Otherwise, I have no idea how you label those.
I was going to edit this into my last post but since you've replied already I'll add it here. I think that while shock factor and humor do likely play a factor in some of the "oddballs" I really do think Sakurai means what he said, that he wants to keep the roster from feeling too samey by adding some fighters that break the mold. In almost any other game this would 100% be seen as a good thing, it's only because in Smash people see it as "stealing" a spot from their favorite characters.
 
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I was going to edit this into my last post but since you've replied already I'll add it here. I think that while shock factor and humor do likely play a factor in some of the "oddballs" I really do think Sakurai means what he said, that he wants to keep the roster from feeling too samey by adding some fighters that break the mold. In almost any other game this would 100% be seen as a good thing, it's only because in Smash people see it as "stealing" a spot from their favorite characters.
Yeah, that is true.

For the sake of comparison, while it's not a fighting game at all, the Project X Zone series is not that visually interesting in regards to character diversity in a crossover, since nearly all the characters in that are humanoid to various degrees. Sure, while there is an appearance from Mokujin and less expected characters like Segata Sanshiro, you can't deny that it avoids cartoony-looking characters on the whole. They even removed Tron Bonne and her Servbots for the sequel. And naturally, the only Nintendo property involved happens to be Fire Emblem.

I mean, just look at the key art for PXZ2: https://tekken.fandom.com/wiki/Project_X_Zone_2?file=Project_x_zone_2_review.jpg. It fully conscribes to the "too many anime people" stereotype that people attribute to Smash.

So really, Smash fans don't realize how easy they have it.
 
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Yeah, that is true.

For the sake of comparison, while it's not a fighting game at all, the Project X Zone series is not that visually interesting in regards to character diversity in a crossover, since nearly all the characters in that are humanoid to various degrees. Sure, while there is an appearance from Mokujin and less expected characters like Segata Sanshiro, you can't deny that it avoids cartoony-looking characters on the whole. They even removed Tron Bonne and her Servbots for the sequel. And naturally, the only Nintendo property involved happens to be Fire Emblem.

I mean, just look at the key art for PXZ2: https://tekken.fandom.com/wiki/Project_X_Zone_2?file=Project_x_zone_2_review.jpg. It fully conscribes to the "too many anime people" stereotype that people attribute to Smash.

So really, Smash fans don't realize how easy they have it.
My experience with this comes from Mobas like LoL and HotS, who both do a great job of adding characters who "break the mold" to make the roster feel really diverse. HotS even does it as a crossover game. I guess that's why I have never had an issue with the "oddballs," because I can see how the diversity can really help keep a game from getting stale.
 
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My experience with this comes from Mobas like LoL and HotS, who both do a great job of adding characters who "break the mold" to make the roster feel really diverse. HotS even does it as a crossover game. I guess that's why I have never had an issue with the "oddballs," because I can see how the diversity can really help keep a game from getting stale.
Not to mention that even a mainstream fighter like Tekken employs those (who could forget the aforementioned mokujin, the bears and the one time Gon made a guest appearance?).

The key is to make sure that suspension of disbelief isn't too stretched (case in point, Street Fighter X Tekken's decision by Ono to have BBA Mega Man).
 
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